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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
Stick with what these atlases etc. have for features, compare them where possible with other such comparable works, but without a "I like this, but not this" bent. (I'll come back to the subject of opinions in a moment.) "-A- Has xxx DSOs, as compared to -B- with xxx..." No judgements, just facts.
There should be some uniformity of structure, so that each entry into this catalog will have equal usefulness to readers. Off the top of my head, I'd say we need to break each entry into four parts (perhaps labeled as such to guide the reader):
1. Title.
2. Publication information (authors, copyright, epoch, count, price, sources, etc.)
3. Physical description: scan of cover, page count, dimensions, type/quality of paper (lamination or dew resistance), sample page to illustrate (I believe this would be okay under both the doctrine of fair use and by the CN TOS, but I will double check on the latter before we commit ourselves to a load of work.)
4. Features: magnitude range, number of objects (DSOs, double stars, that sort of thing) and anything else that might distinguish a particular atlas from others.
5. Link to discussions.
That last is where opinions could be give free range. There is a subjective element to all of this, it can't be helped. Whoever writes up a pair of entries is likely to prefer one atlas over the other, for whatever reason. Such informed opinions are of great value (when expressed politely) to people who want to include the experiences of fellow amateur astronomers in their decision making process. So at the end of each entry, the poster should include a "Discuss it here..." link to a thread that they should themselves start, at that point. Follow up your write up with a more personal sort of mini-review, perhaps discussing easy of use at the eyepiece, visibility under red light, etc. These discussions could then sweep up the inevitable, "I like this one better than... Because..." sort of material.
1) Title (agreed)
2) Publication information (agreed, except for prices and sources.. they can change)
3) Physical description (agreed, except the scan of the cover. As far as I know, most of us won't be able to post two images in one post, and the more important of the two images is (by far) the sample scan (or screenshot as the case may be) of the actual chart.)
Btw, in the Bino forum thread which launched this brainchild, I asked:
Quote:
Ed, would it be against the TOS to post a 200x200 pixel sample of the charts we're talking about? Seems to me we'd be doing the authors and publishers a favor by supplying free advertising (and a possible sales boost), but copyright law might not see it that way.
To which Ed replied:
Quote:
I'm afraid it would be against TOS to use adverts. However, home pics should be fine.
Check it out with the Admins to be 150% certain, but I'm sure Ed knows of what he speaks. 
Ok, back to the topic at hand:
4) Features (agreed except naming things which might distinguish it from another publication. That might lead to less-than-objective posts which I'll get to in a second.)
5) Link to discussions (agreed)
Ok, here's where I 'get to it in a second'.
In your opener you said
"Stick with what these atlases etc. have for features"
(agree),
"compare them where possible with other such comparable works,"
(disagree)
"No judgements, just facts."
(agree)
Asking for comparisons with other publications might not be desireable.
1) The other publication may or may not have a post of it's own
2) Any type of allowable comparison will open the door for personal opinion, and we really want this thread to be as you said, "No judgements, just facts."
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
Quote:
One thing I'm wondering though.. do people actually use photographic atlases while they're observing?
Sometimes. When I first got the Photographic Atlas of the Stars (when it first came out), I spent an entire night on a chaise lounge in my front yard, watching the sky and comparing it to the photos. I saw the North America Nebula naked-eye, and I don't remember what else. I'd fall asleep for a while, then wake up to find the sky had changed a little. (A herd of javelinas kept making noise across the yard and waking me). It was a wonderful night.
- Rick
 I'd never heard of anyone using a photo atlas.. thanks for the insight, Rick! Jmho, if it helped you out, it most certainly belongs on the list.
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Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
Carol, your idea seems to have hit a responsive cord and therefore I will assume it will fly with the moderators. I think I will hold off on buying an atlas for a while and see how this develops.
If someone that has one of these books, and feels they are familiar enough with its contents, is willing to create a “sample” post, we can all throw darts at it to refine what should be included or omitted. It is easy to poke holes in what someone else has created and can be hard to have holes poked in something you have created so I will say THANK YOU in advance to anyone that is brave enough to go first. This process usually generates a good product in the end and once the first one is done the others will have a format to follow which makes it much easier. I would also concur with the suggestion of using Orion as the area of sky for the comparison.
Thomas, thanks for your support.  I'd be happy to put together a preview of what a typical post would look like as soon as the Mod Squad gives the final ok on using scans and screen shots. (No, I'm not brave... just a glutton for punishment.  )
I'll use Orion in my example, but it should be noted that if we're going to have a uniform repository, an area of sky needs to be agreed on. Some would be interested in seeing galactic areas whereas others might be interested in seeing nebulae and such.
Anyone know how to put two images into one post?
That'd open a lot of doors. 
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Time on my hands
sage
Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
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Carol, glutons for punishment usually get more than they ask for!javascript:void(0)
In reference as to which area of the sky to use, I supported Orion because it is familiar to most people new to astronomy. I believe it also has everything significant except galaxies (e.g. double stars, nebulas, a red giant). I would think that Orion would have something that would be included in most, if not all, of the specialty collections so they would include this area of the sky. I thought about Ursa Major for the same reasons except it has galaxies and no nebulas (That I know of.). I am not all that familiar with the sky, however, and will certainly defer to those with better knowledge of a) what is significant for inclusion and b) which constellation would include them all. After all, I just learned that double stars can be more interesting than just two white lights close together. I knew about Albireo but believed that it was unique. OK all you walking star atlasesjavascript:void(0) , what constellation has everything?
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Thomas
18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]
I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!
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Time on my hands
sage
Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
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Someday I will have to figure out the correct way to put gremlins in a post!
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Thomas
18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]
I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
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Quote:
Btw Don, would you please link us to a few (say 4) of those 5800 finder charts so we could see what you're referring to? Thanks!
Carol,
From the same guy who's bringing you the CNebulaX Project:
5800 Minimaps
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Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Asking for comparisons with other publications might not be desireable.
1) The other publication may or may not have a post of it's own
2) Any type of allowable comparison will open the door for personal opinion, and we really want this thread to be as you said, "No judgements, just facts."
Such comparisons could be made without making judgement calls. What I had in mind was a way for people reading these entries to determine whether or not an atlas goes "deep" enough for them. However, that could be done simply by listing the numbers for a given atlas, and allowing readers to compare for themselves using the information we provide them.
To the best of my knowledge we are only able to place a single image in a post, which would mean either a cover scan or a single sample page. Unless, of course, we decide to make each "entry" a pair of posts. Perhaps the first with the cover scan and the run down, and the second with the sample page. It would be do-able, but I fear it would be cumbersome in a hurry. If the choice must be made, go with the sample page.
--------------------
Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
I'll use Orion in my example, but it should be noted that if we're going to have a uniform repository, an area of sky needs to be agreed on. Some would be interested in seeing galactic areas whereas others might be interested in seeing nebulae and such.
Orion might actually be a good area to concentrate on. It would be a good idea, I think, to pick a constellation for this project that is visible in both hemispheres. Scorpius would be another good choice, as would Canis Major. But Orion has the most to offer for our purposes.
--------------------
Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
Edited by desertstars (09/20/06 11:47 AM)
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
Quote:
Btw Don, would you please link us to a few (say 4) of those 5800 finder charts so we could see what you're referring to? Thanks!
Carol,
From the same guy who's bringing you the CNebulaX Project:
5800 Minimaps
Don, I thought you'd been keeping track of all the finder charts posted as attachments.
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Quote:
However, that could be done simply by listing the numbers for a given atlas, and allowing readers to compare for themselves using the information we provide them.
Yes, that's exactly what I'd pictured.
Just thought of something. As far as additional images, we could always post them in the discussion thread. That way we'd be able to show images of the publication's cover, its galactic areas, nebulous areas, zoom maps, etc.
Btw, your logical reason for using Orion gets my vote.
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 11940
Loc: Inner Solar System
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It's hard to beat Orion.
Sagittarius is another good one. Better in some ways, since there are globs too.
- Rick
--------------------
- Rick
14" LX200
Cactus Patch Observatory
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom, and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three."
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Just thought of something. As far as additional images, we could always post them in the discussion thread. That way we'd be able to show images of the publication's cover, its galactic areas, nebulous areas, zoom maps, etc.
We could also post images (with appropriate links) in the member's gallery. However, if we post more than one sample we will probably exceed what publishers find acceptable for the purposes of review. I believe a cover shot and a sample chart may be all we can get away with safely.
Just a thought: each write up could be in the form of a pair of posts. The first would be the main thing, including the sample. The second could be a shot of the cover so folks would know what they are looking for.
Beyond that, it probably does not make sense to get too hung up over the cover. If you're ordering online all you really need is the title and author. (Although the ISBN number can be very helpful at times.)
--------------------
Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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steve_lostmt
newbie
Reged: 04/04/06
Posts: 2
Loc: Marietta, GA
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(the two items with (**) probably need a regular name?)
AAVSO Variable Star Atlas
Astronomy Magazine Atlas
Atlas Borealis/Eclipticalis/Australis
Becvar's Atlas Coeli
Bright Star Atlas
Cambridge Star Atlas
Collins Atlas of the Night Sky
Collins Stars
**Free Mag.7 Star Atlas (on CN)
**Glow in the Dark Star Finder
Harald-Bobroff AstroAtlas
Messier Card
Mallas & Kreimer Messier Album
Millenium Star Atlas
National Audubon Society Field Guide to the Night Sky
Norton's
Orion Deep Map 600
Peterson First Guides / Astronomy
Peterson's Guide to the Stars
Philips Color Star Atlas
Pocket Sky Atlas
Seasonal Star Atlas
Skalnate-Pleso Atlas of the Heavens
Sky Atlas 2000
Sky Atlas for Small Telescopes and Binoculars
Taki's Star Atlas
Telrad charts
The Observer's Sky Atlas (in German)
Tully's Nearby Galaxies Atlas
Uranometria 2000.0
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
(here's the software publications.. best to keep them separate?)
Cartes du Ciel
DeepSky Astronomy Software
Megastar
Sky Chart III
SkyTools2
Star Atlas Pro
Starry Night
I added the following item:
Sky Atlas for Small Telescopes and Binoculars,
by David and Billie Chandler. It's still available new.
Steve E.
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steve_lostmt
newbie
Reged: 04/04/06
Posts: 2
Loc: Marietta, GA
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Oops, I didn't update the latest version of the list. Maybe I got the right one this time.
amended list, Sept 21st 2006:
<< PRINTED MATERIAL >>
(standard large atlases; free online atlas projects; field guide formats that double as general amateur astronomy references but include fairly detailed charts)
5800 finder charts posted here on CN.
AAVSO Variable Star Atlas
Astronomy Magazine Atlas of the Stars
Atlas Eclipticalis
Atlas Australis
Atlas of Deep Sky Splendors by Vehrenberg
Bright Star Atlas
Cambridge Star Atlas
Collins Atlas of the Night Sky
Collins Stars
Deep Sky Reiseatlas (German),
Free Mag.7 Star Atlas (on CN) by Andrews
Harald-Bobroff AstroAtlas
Messier Card
Mallas & Kreimer Messier Album
Millenium Star Atlas
National Audubon Society Field Guide to the Night Sky
Norton's
The Observer's Sky Atlas by Karkoschka
Orion Deep Map 600
Peterson First Guides / Astronomy
Peterson's Guide to the Stars and Planets
Philips Color Star Atlas
The Photographic Atlas of the Stars by Arnold, Doherty, Moore
Pocket Sky Atlas
Seasonal Star charts and glow in the dark planisphere
John Small Free Telrad charts( HERE
Sky Atlas 2000, desk, field, and deluxe versions
Sky Atlas for Small Telescopes and Binoculars
Taki's Star Atlas, both versions
Telrad Finder Chart of the Best 300 Objects
Tully's Nearby Galaxies Atlas
Uranometria 2000.0, 1st and 2nd editions
<< PLANETARIUM PROGRAMS AND SOFTWARE >>
Cartes du Ciel
CNebulaX Project.
DeepSky Astronomy Software
Megastar
Sky Chart III
SkyTools2
Star Atlas Pro
Starry Night
The Sky
<< HISTORICAL PUBLICATIONS >>
Becvar's Atlas Coeli
Atlas Borealis
Skalnate-Pleso Atlas of the Heavens: desk and field versions
I added the following item:
Sky Atlas for Small Telescopes and Binoculars,
by David and Billie Chandler. It's still available new.
Steve E.
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Carol L
Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
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Thanks Steve!
Tom, regarding the TOS and use of a sample scan, am I cleared for a mock review?
--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
Moon Sketch Tutorial
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Time on my hands
sage
Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
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Carol, I do not know how to create a direct link to another post but Ralph [user name: Ralph McIntosh] posted two pics in one post over in the refractor forum. The post is #1154172 - 09/18/06 04:09 PM (on the last page [13] on my system) of the "Post a Pic of Your Refractor(s)!" thread. Apparently it can be done!
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Thomas
18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]
I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
Tom, regarding the TOS and use of a sample scan, am I cleared for a mock review?
Just now running it by them.
Sorry, lost track of time...  
--------------------
Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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Time on my hands
sage
Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
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I have heard that stargazing after a long hiatus can do that to you! 
--------------------
Thomas
18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]
I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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You have heard correctly.
Well, it's a better excuse than admitting to the cumulative effect of dead brain cells lost during my misbegotten youth...
--------------------
Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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Glassthrower
Vendor - Galactic Stone & Ironworks
Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 17931
Loc: Oort Cloud 9
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Quote:
Well, it's a better excuse than admitting to the cumulative effect of dead brain cells lost during my misbegotten youth...
Advancing age kills more brain cells than blows to the head, drugs, and oxygen deprivation combined. What we don't do to ourselves in youth, Mother Nature will kindly take care of for us as we age!
Sorry, I know that is Off-Topic. So let me nudge it back on topic - I'll contribute a review when the time comes.
Clear dark skies...
MikeG
--------------------
Michael Gilmer - Member of the Meteoritical Society & Collector of Falling Stars.
☄ ⒼⒶⓁⒶⒸⓉⒾⒸ ⓈⓉⓄⓃⒺ ☞ www.galactic-stone.com
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