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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: desertstars]
      #1207549 - 10/20/06 12:30 AM

Quote:

I know that...

The additions are a good idea. They'd serve as a fallback if we can't get permission to reproduce a chart, and as something of an interpretive aide if we do.






Regarding the chart descriptions.. I agree they'd come in handy in case we can't include a sample, but maybe they'd also be sufficient enough to let us get a jump-start on the proposed thread rather than waiting for replies from publishers. Not quite what I had in mind when asking about compiling an info-thread, but ya gotta go with the flow.

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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sage


Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1207585 - 10/20/06 01:00 AM

I like the idea of a fixed format with numbers but I believe that more than just a simple heading is needed for the newbie’s among us. There are terms that will not be familiar to everyone. Carol, what is turtleback binding? That is not a term I have run across before. Also, Don, what are the "binning" or "infinitely variable" scales? Again, new terms for me. There are probably terms that are familiar to me that will not be familiar to others so this cannot be judged by one person easily. Perhaps the first entry could be a detailed description and definitions of the information included for each heading and just numbers and headings in the following posts.

One last question/point (For this post anyway!). I was suggested to me that a star atlas should have laminated pages for use at the eyepiece. I do not know that not having this feature would preclude a book from being an atlas, but the practicality of using the atlas at the eyepiece should be included somewhere.

--------------------
Thomas

18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]

I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!


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Dave Mitsky
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Reged: 04/08/02
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Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1208049 - 10/20/06 10:59 AM

Have the various Sky Spot Telrad finder charts (Finder Charts of the Messier Objects, Finder Charts of Bright Telescopic Objects, Finder Charts of Overlooked Objects, and Finder Charts of Select Double Stars) been mentioned?

http://www.sky-spot.com/

Dave Mitsky

--------------------
Chance favors the prepared mind.

A man is a small thing, and the night is very large and full of wonders.


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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1208717 - 10/20/06 05:56 PM

Quote:

Suppose we make a formal, numbered list of points we'd like to see covered in the fact-sheets, and then use that standard form for all publication write-ups? Naturally, some points wouldn't apply to all publications, but supplying the same info for all publications would certainly insure that contributors wouldn't overlook important points like I did. Numbering the points would make it very easy for readers to compare one publication with another, too. Sound reasonable?





Sounds perfectly reasonable, and in fact was kinda sorta what I was getting at when I made the comment about a standard format. The idea of numbering sections is a good one.

When you have a chance, why not revise and repost your sample entry so we can see how that works?

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Dave Mitsky]
      #1208720 - 10/20/06 05:57 PM

Quote:

Have the various Sky Spot Telrad finder charts (Finder Charts of the Messier Objects, Finder Charts of Bright Telescopic Objects, Finder Charts of Overlooked Objects, and Finder Charts of Select Double Stars) been mentioned?

http://www.sky-spot.com/

Dave Mitsky




You know, I don't see them on our most recent hit list.

Nice catch!

They are in the list now.

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: desertstars]
      #1208737 - 10/20/06 06:07 PM

I've broken the rapidly growing list out into a thread of its own in an effort to streamline the discussion of format. The thread is entitles Hit List and is 'stuck' to the top of the forum. Please post additions in that thread. I'll edit new suggestions into the list as needed.

Hit List

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Time on my hands]
      #1208750 - 10/20/06 06:24 PM

_"Carol, what is turtleback binding?"_
My entire Audubon Guide set has it, but I never knew the name until reading about it at Amazon (scroll almost to the bottom).
Here's another description located via Google, and here's an image of the book. The printed part is a glossy paper sleeve, but the yellow part is a seamless vinyl wrap-around cover which is glued onto the paperback's thick paper (thin cardboard) outer cover. Very durable.

_"Perhaps the first entry could be a detailed description and definitions of the information included for each heading..."_
Good idea! Posting an introductory glossary would be a great learning experience... "binning" and "infinitely variable" flew right over my head like the Shuttle.


_"It was suggested to me that a star atlas should have laminated pages for use at the eyepiece. I do not know that not having this feature would preclude a book from being an atlas, but the practicality of using the atlas at the eyepiece should be included somewhere. "_
The thing is, laminated charts might not be a 'must' for someone living in an arid climate. It'd probably be best to present the facts and let the reader determine whether the publication would be practical for them or not. If they would like advice or have a question, there will be a clickable link at the bottom of every fact sheet, leading to the discussion on that particular publication.

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: desertstars]
      #1208755 - 10/20/06 06:29 PM

_"When you have a chance, why not revise and repost your sample entry so we can see how that works?"_

Will do, Tom.
And thanks for separating the list from this thread.

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Starman1
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Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Time on my hands]
      #1211264 - 10/22/06 07:34 PM

Quote:

Also, Don, what are the "binning" or "infinitely variable" scales? Again, new terms for me. There are probably terms that are familiar to me that will not be familiar to others so this cannot be judged by one person easily.



Sorry. I would think everyone looking at atlases would be familiar. You're right that esoteric terms should be defined.

Binning is where, due to printing issues, a range of magnitudes of the stars are all represented by the same size dot (e.g.5.5 to 6.5 = *). (Examples: first edition of Tirion Sky Atlas 2000.0, Norton's)

Infinitiely variable (possible thanks to computerized printing)
is where every star's exact magnitude results in a discrete size for that star and a magnitude 6.6 star has a larger dot than a magnitude 6.7 star. (Examples: 2nd Edition of Tirion Sky Atlas 2000.0, 2nd edition of Uranometria 2000.0, etc.)

The latter type of printing allows estimation of the exact magnitude of the star from the size of the printed dot. The former type does not.

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)


Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs [Re: Carol L]
      #1211276 - 10/22/06 07:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Info such as: limiting magnitude of the charts,
number of DSOs in the entire book,
how much info is printed about each object (if any),
whether "binning" or "infinitely variable" scale is used for star images and objects,
whether the objects have their correct sky position angles on the charts,
whether there is overlap on the object designations,
what catalogs are used in DSO selection,
scale of the map in degrees or minutes per inch of paper, changes from previous printings (if known),
whether chart overlays are available/provided.




Don, thank you for asking these questions. You brought up points which I'd have never thought to include, but they'll definitely help people get a better picture of what the charts look like.

And as a bonus, you've given me an idea... for a 'standardized fact-list'.

Suppose we make a formal, numbered list of points we'd like to see covered in the fact-sheets, and then use that standard form for all publication write-ups? Naturally, some points wouldn't apply to all publications, but supplying the same info for all publications would certainly insure that contributors wouldn't overlook important points like I did. Numbering the points would make it very easy for readers to compare one publication with another, too. Sound reasonable?

Here's the additional points you brought up, with my bracketed replies.

----------------------

>limiting magnitude of the charts
[Yes, this info was already included: "Mag 5 Constellation charts (with chart key)"]

>number of DSOs in the entire book
[Sorry, info not supplied by author]

>how much info is printed about each object (if any),
[Yes, there's object info in the text section of the book. I can try to condense and generalize what's stated if you'd like.]

>whether "binning" or "infinitely variable" scale is used for star images and objects,
[Sorry, info not supplied by author and I haven't the foggiest. ]

>whether the objects have their correct sky position angles on the charts,
[Doesn't look like it]

>whether there is overlap on the object designations,
[The Messier list in the appendix also has the NGC numbers.. is that what you mean?]

>what catalogs are used in DSO selection,
[The text says they use Messier, New General Catalog and Index Catalog, but the SGE chart includes H20 so I can only assume they've included others which may be of special interest.]

>scale of the map in degrees or minutes per inch of paper, changes from previous printings (if known),
[Sorry, info not supplied by author.]

>whether chart overlays are available/provided.
[No overlays.]

--------------------

Think about the 'standardized fact-list', ok everyone?
It might make this whole thing a lot easier in the long run.




A standardized list of info and answered points is almost essential in this project, and has the greatest likelihood of being useful to the reader. Note that my question on magnitude limit needs to be answered separately from the title of an atlas, because if the stars are binned (explanation in earlier post), a mag.5 atlas may actually reach to mag.5.5.
Scale can be often determined by using a ruler, but different forms of projection may vary in the scale with declination (as do some maps--see Greenland on a Mercator projection). Such a distortion in the charts should be noted if possible.
Seems like we're moving toward a standard format, and I think that would be wonderful.

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member



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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Starman1]
      #1211325 - 10/22/06 08:13 PM

Here's the best I could manage, considering the fact that I'm working with a general guide book and not merely a set of charts. It was difficult to figure out where to place the numbered points, so I abandoned the chronological order of the book and placed the numbered items first.

And Don, thanks for clearing that up for us. In this book, all charts show varied star sizes but uniform DSO icons... I gather from your explanation that the DSOs are binned, whereas the stars are infinitely variable?

Ok then, here's the revised re-post:

--------------------------------

General book information
1) Title: National Audubon Society Field Guide to the Night Sky (8th edition - Jan 1997)
2) Author: Mark R Chartrand and Wil Tirion
3) Publisher: Alfred A Knopf, Inc.
4) Copyright: 1991, 1997 by Chanticleer press, Inc.
5) ISBN: 0-679-40852-5
6) Pages: 720
7) Binding: Turtleback, vinyl
8) Dimensions: 7.64" x 3.88" x 1.09"
9) Weight: 1.16 pounds

Individual constellation chart information (typical Wil Tirion charts)
10) Chart background colors: overall medium blue, Milky Way in light blue
11) Stars and deep sky objects: yellow
12) Constellation related lines: white
13) Ecliptic and co-ordinate lines: black
14) Lettering: black (upper case constellation names)
15) Print size: averages 1/8" to just a bit under 1/8"
16) Stellar magnitude limit: 5
17) Stellar designations used: common name and Bayer
18) Main deep sky catalogs used: Messier, New General Catalog and Index Catalog. [Messier numbers are preceded by M, IC numbers are preceded by I. and NGC numbers show no prefix. Examples: M97 _ I.5217 _ 6940.]
19) Deep sky magnitude limit: special interest objects down to mag 12
20) Chart keys: yes
21) Objects illustrated: double stars, variables, open clusters, globular clusters, planetary clusters, diffuse nebulae and galaxies.
22) Overlays: no
23) Scale of star images and objects (binned or infinitely variable): info not supplied by author
24) Actual position angle of objects portrayed: no
25) Scale of the map in degrees or minutes per inch of paper: unknown
26) Changes in scale from previous printings: unknown

Miscellaneous book information
All-sky charts also included:
> Zodiacal Longitude charts
> Northern celestial hemisphere chart (+90° to 0°)
> Southern celestial hemisphere chart (0° to -90°)
> Monthly (local 9pm, mid-month) horizon-to-zenith charts from vantage point of 35°N latitude. Each month is a two page spread of four charts: NW, NE, SW and SE.

'Introduction' - 96 pages of text, divided into sections about the universe, solar system, systems of measurements, astronomical names, constellations, astronomical instruments and observing the sky.

'Color Plates' - 304 pages of charts and photographs, each bearing a plate number, name, and reference page to the relevant text located in the 'Touring the Skies' section.
Other than the Wil Tirion charts already mentioned, the color plates include Lunar photos and maps depicting days 4, 7, 10, 14, 17.8, 22, 24 and 26 of the lunar cycle, and photos of constellations, Messiers, DSOs, solar system objects and miscellaneous objects.

Text 'Touring the Skies' section - 275 pages of information about objects covered in the 'Color Plates' section.

'The Appendices' section includes phases of the Moon, lunar eclipses, solar eclipses, solar eclipse paths of totality map, planet positions, planetary longitudes, planetary satellites, largest minor planets, major meteor showers, selected period comets, the 12 brightest stars, the nearest stars, the Messier catalog, selected bibliography, picture credits and index.

-----------------------------------

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Edited by Carol L (10/22/06 09:52 PM)


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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Starman1]
      #1211459 - 10/22/06 09:49 PM

Quote:

A standardized list of info and answered points is almost essential in this project, and has the greatest likelihood of being useful to the reader. Note that my question on magnitude limit needs to be answered separately from the title of an atlas, because if the stars are binned (explanation in earlier post), a mag.5 atlas may actually reach to mag.5.5.
Scale can be often determined by using a ruler, but different forms of projection may vary in the scale with declination (as do some maps--see Greenland on a Mercator projection). Such a distortion in the charts should be noted if possible.
Seems like we're moving toward a standard format, and I think that would be wonderful.




A standard format is wonderful, but the desire for information shouldn't open the door for guesswork like I just did regarding the binning and infinite variability issue.

I'll edit my revised sample entry back to 'info not supplied by author'... to be perfectly honest, I just don't feel comfortable with leaving it as is. I could be dead wrong, and it would mislead the readers. Hopefully most of the publications include all of the desired info.. that way, no one will need to guess.

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Time on my hands
sage


Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1211723 - 10/23/06 01:19 AM

Carol,

How about:

Information not supplied by author - Legend on charts go down to mag 5.

as a way of getting the best information out for your example? I like the rest of the format. It gives the numbers up front with enough flexibility in the misc. section to cover the general layout of the topics covered.

--------------------
Thomas

18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]

I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!


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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1212260 - 10/23/06 12:07 PM

Quote:

A standard format is wonderful, but the desire for information shouldn't open the door for guesswork like I just did regarding the binning and infinite variability issue.




The easiest way to deal with terminology (turtle binding, binning, etc.) would be for the author to use what he/she feels needs to be used, and terms that are not self-evident (or that prompt inquiry from us or later users) can be asterisked and defined in a footnote at the bottom of the entry in which they were used.

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Time on my hands]
      #1215534 - 10/25/06 01:17 AM

Thanks for your input, Thomas.
Yeah, I tried to keep the same order as before but numbers 10-26 got stuck in the middle of the write-up so I booted them up to the top. Seemed to work, though.
Oh, and the reason I didn't mention anything about mag 5 in #23 is because it's already mentioned in #16.

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: desertstars]
      #1215582 - 10/25/06 02:16 AM

I'd agree that 'turtleback binding' should have a note at the bottom explaining what it is, but for the sake of brevity should I just amended it to 'paperback'? That's what it is, after all.. just a plastic covered paperback.

Anyway, I'd agree that an uncommon term should be noted at the bottom of the fact-sheet, but no doubt there will be other terms which will pop up quite often, and it might do well to place them in a glossary (mentioned previously but by whom, I can't recall.. pls forgive). This glossary would be placed in the introductory post which opens the proposed thread, so it can easily be accessed by readers.

Tom, could you please do the introductory post? You write soooo purty. Inclusion of the glossary in the introduction would make it easy for you to edit in additions as they pop up, too... like you're doing in the Hit List thread.

I'll put a basic glossary together and post it, and then everyone can add to it... hopefully we'll get all the bases covered.

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
Moon Sketch Tutorial
Sun/DSO Sketch Tutorial
CN Gallery
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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1216032 - 10/25/06 11:22 AM

Quote:

I'd agree that 'turtleback binding' should have a note at the bottom explaining what it is, but for the sake of brevity should I just amended it to 'paperback'? That's what it is, after all.. just a plastic covered paperback.




Of course we could cop out the way most booksellers do, and just list things as either softcover or hardcover, and not get technical.

Quote:

Anyway, I'd agree that an uncommon term should be noted at the bottom of the fact-sheet, but no doubt there will be other terms which will pop up quite often, and it might do well to place them in a glossary (mentioned previously but by whom, I can't recall.. pls forgive). This glossary would be placed in the introductory post which opens the proposed thread, so it can easily be accessed by readers.




A glossary couldn't hurt, so I'll add it to the intro.

Quote:

Tom, could you please do the introductory post? You write soooo purty. Inclusion of the glossary in the introduction would make it easy for you to edit in additions as they pop up, too... like you're doing in the Hit List thread.




How can I say no to that?

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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Carol L



Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 6968
Loc: Tomahawk, WI 45N//89W
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: desertstars]
      #1237191 - 11/05/06 11:30 PM

Ok, I'm stumped... outside of the unfamiliar terms Don mentioned, I'm not quite sure what should be in the glossary. Terms like Ecliptic, RA, Dec, etc are unfamiliar to all of us in the beginning, though.. should they be included, or should we assume readers already have a basic grasp?

--------------------
Carol Lakomiak, Tomahawk WI
Writing Sky at Night magazine's astrosketch page since June 2009
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)


Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Carol L]
      #1237200 - 11/05/06 11:38 PM

Quote:

Ok, I'm stumped... outside of the unfamiliar terms Don mentioned, I'm not quite sure what should be in the glossary. Terms like Ecliptic, RA, Dec, etc are unfamiliar to all of us in the beginning, though.. should they be included, or should we assume readers already have a basic grasp?



That would depend on whether the summaries are for newbies only. I don't think it hurts to assume knowledge of terms, because heaven knows there are enough web sites to look them up on.

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member



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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Charts, Atlases and Programs new [Re: Starman1]
      #1237229 - 11/06/06 12:10 AM

My suggestion would be, for now, to limit the glossary to terms that describe materials and methods used to produce and use these references.

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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