conus
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/12/03
Posts: 3038
Loc: OC, Calif
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Around here you will hear a lot of people suggesting that to do long exposure DSO imaging, a heavy and accurately tracking mount is a necessity. An entry level high-end mount starts at around $3100.00 for a Losmandy G-11 with Gemini go-to. While it is true that such a mount is necesary to do easy, headache free imaging, it is not at all necessary. In fact, with Celestron's CG5 mount, an Orion ED80, a Digital Rebel, a guidescope, a guide camera, a steeper learning curve and a lot of work, it is possible to get great images. The equipment I just mentioned can all be purchased new for less than the Losmandy mount.
Check out Jim Solomon's website . Believe it or not, everything you see was done with a CG5. Look at the images, then go to the articles section. He's written something called Cookbook 2.0 that tells you how he does it.
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Steve R.
Orion XT12
Fujinon 10x42
Oberwerk 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
http://www.telescopesinhistory.com
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stefsaber
Post Laureate
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Rainy Florida
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Great idea, my thoughts were for a G-11 initially, however without the Gemini system...
Now I've purchased a Vixen 80 for my main imaging tube, and I am planning on getting a LXD75 mount, for a total cost of less than half the Losmandy mount alone.
And if you really want some affordable imaging, grab an etx and a ccd camera, granted its not top-quality, but its a way to get started!
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-Stefan
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." -Douglas Adams
Current Equip: Zhummel 10" Dob
Past Scopes: ETX 90---Vixen ED80Sf---WO 66SD--WO Megrez 80II Triplet
Fort Myers, FL
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
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And I can go one step further, and suggest that you do not even need an expensive digital camera. This image was done with an LXD75 SN8 and a 26 year old film camera that can be found on eBay for $50. Total cost of the complete setup was less than $1500.
CF
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Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
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Nor do you need a computer. These shots are all 100% straight from the developer. No post processing of any kind was done, except to crop them to fit these tiny squares! No color correction, flats, darks, etc.. No stacking either, as they are all SINGLE exposures.
CF
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Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!
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stefsaber
Post Laureate
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Rainy Florida
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Clownfish is the master of film photography around here, just browse his sight if you want to get into astrophotography! Amazing collage you have there!!!
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-Stefan
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." -Douglas Adams
Current Equip: Zhummel 10" Dob
Past Scopes: ETX 90---Vixen ED80Sf---WO 66SD--WO Megrez 80II Triplet
Fort Myers, FL
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15091
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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Geeze Peter, get out of here with that stuff!
How are we going to convince these guys to spend a bazillion bucks on high-zoot, fancypants, robotic mounts and such if you're going to show them what kind of magic can be wrought with a plain old film camera and a bit of effort at tracking. 
Lord knows there's no way I can afford that kind of equipment. So, if I can't tric... convince these guys to buy the goods, I can't even enjoy it vicariously. 
Yes, the secret is out now. Excellent results can be obtained by the ClownFish method. If you think about it, there are a lot of pretty good astrophotos around, in books and magazines, that predate digital cameras and even the Hubble Space Telescope.
Of course, Peter didn't get those kind of results the first night under the stars. It takes some effort and trial & error, but Peter doesn't mind lending a hand to minimize some of the pain.
Sometimes, spending a boatload of money can make it easier, but there's no guarantee.
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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stefsaber
Post Laureate
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Rainy Florida
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Quote:
Sometimes, spending a boatload of money can make it easier, but there's no guarantee.
For instance, a Ferrari will make it easier to get from Point A to Point B, but there's no guarantee that you won't be arrested for going 100 mph over the speed limited...
Whereas that Chevy Silverado will get you there everytime
Money doesn't have to be an issue with astrophotography, if you are handy with tools amazing results can be imaged using a barn-door tracker...amazing stuff...
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-Stefan
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." -Douglas Adams
Current Equip: Zhummel 10" Dob
Past Scopes: ETX 90---Vixen ED80Sf---WO 66SD--WO Megrez 80II Triplet
Fort Myers, FL
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conus
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/12/03
Posts: 3038
Loc: OC, Calif
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There's only one reason I've never considered film photography, but it's a big one. Having to do everything without at least some immediate feedback is enough to put me off. I can't imagine not even being 100% certain that my focus was right, or having to wait until the film was developed to see if I had made any major errors. I would rather spend a little more and be able to see the results the same night.
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Steve R.
Orion XT12
Fujinon 10x42
Oberwerk 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
http://www.telescopesinhistory.com
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
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While I was certainly experienced in astrophotography, I must tell you that the above film collage was done with my very first 3 rolls of film and they were the first shots I had taken in over 10 years - owing to several back-to-back military assignments that were not good for deep sky astrophotography. In fact, when I bought the LXD75 it was after being without a scope since 1994. I was completely amazed at how well it performed, but even more amazed at how well Kodak E200 and Fujichrome 400F Provia film performed without the technical gas hypering that had to be done just 10 years earlier. In 1994, I could not have easily achieved this level of astrophotography with the films that were available at that time.
As far as the immediate feedback thing.. yeah, when I was starting out there was a very LONG learning curve, owing to the wait of development. But now that I have learned the rules, I rarely have a problem with that. Attention to detail and manual guiding is key for me.
The point I want to make is NOT that film astrophotography is easy. It's that it's CHEAP and it WORKS. Also.. if you want a really HUGE field of view, a medium format film camera can't be beat unless you are able and willing to pay many tens of thousands of dollars on a digital setup with an equivalent FOV. Just take a quick look at what a Medium Format film camera can do by looking at THIS website by veteran film astrophotographer Wei-Hao Wang. His SHOT of the whole sky will end any doubt that we are indeed in a galaxy!
CF
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Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!
Edited by ClownFish (11/08/06 12:38 AM)
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conus
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/12/03
Posts: 3038
Loc: OC, Calif
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Quote:
The point I want to make is NOT that film astrophotography is easy. It's that it's CHEAP
Right. That was my point about the CG5. I know it has problems, but what many people claim about it is simply untrue. You hear people claiming that it is not at all capable of use for serious imaging, which is impossible unless one spends 8k on a Tak NJP. I've seen work done with an NJP and plenty of work with a G-11 that didn't equal images taken by Jim Solomon and Jim Thommes, both of whom use the CG5. A CG5 with go-to is only $699.00.
If you're willing to go through a steeper learning curve and do a little more work, you can do digital imaging a LOT more cheaply than you would be led to believe by some internet advice.
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Steve R.
Orion XT12
Fujinon 10x42
Oberwerk 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70
http://www.telescopesinhistory.com
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Rev2010
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/25/06
Posts: 1131
Loc: NYC & Bayonne, NJ
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Right on to Conus and also right on to ClownFish! I agree that so many people tend to make it sound like if you don't have a hyper expensive mount or wedge, do manual or autoguiding, and have absolutely the best skies you won't be able to procure decent images. I'd been looking to get a wedge for my LX90 and so far I've heard things on par with, "Oh you can't use that low cost Meade wedge... you need a $500 Milburn" and even, "LX90's motors are no good for imaging... you need an LX200 at the least". While some of this stuff obviously has merit it simply does not mean it can't be done without all the bells and whistles and with quite good results. We're not trying to match Hubble here  Eventually I found photos done by people using the lowest of gear and boy I was impressed. Granted a number of these people probably went through much trial and error but that's fine by me.
I picked up an Olympus OM-1 from EBay for $47 total and I'm dying to use it but I'm waiting to drop the cash for the wedge, focuser, reducer, etc. I decided to try film first cause of the lower cost and looking at having to stack hundreds of images and do all that processing with CCD imaging kinda put me off to start with.
*EDIT - ClownFish, your first link for Wei-Hao Wang doesn't work cause there's a / at the end of .html. It just needs to be removed.
Rev.
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Meade 10" LX90 LNT
TeleVue Panoptic 22mm
Baader Hyperion 17mm
Televue Nagler 12T4 & 9T6
WO 40mm SWAN
WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
DGM Optics NPB filter
Lumicon OIII filter
Baader Moon & Skyglow filter
Celestron 15x70 Binocs
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stefsaber
Post Laureate
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Rainy Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
The point I want to make is NOT that film astrophotography is easy. It's that it's CHEAP
Right. That was my point about the CG5. I know it has problems, but what many people claim about it is simply untrue. You hear people claiming that it is not at all capable of use for serious imaging, which is impossible unless one spends 8k on a Tak NJP. I've seen work done with an NJP and plenty of work with a G-11 that didn't equal images taken by Jim Solomon and Jim Thommes, both of whom use the CG5. A CG5 with go-to is only $699.00.
If you're willing to go through a steeper learning curve and do a little more work, you can do digital imaging a LOT more cheaply than you would be led to believe by some internet advice.
It all depends on the amount of load you put on a mount too...If you load up a CG5 with a 10" Optical tube+accessories, the images will not be as good as a 10" on a Losmandy G-11...However, go the small route, via a 80ED refractor and you'll be fine!
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-Stefan
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." -Douglas Adams
Current Equip: Zhummel 10" Dob
Past Scopes: ETX 90---Vixen ED80Sf---WO 66SD--WO Megrez 80II Triplet
Fort Myers, FL
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skydog
member
Reged: 08/24/06
Posts: 38
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Thanks everyone, you have given me hope that I will be able to get the pics I want and still send both kids to college! It's like everything else... takes time and patience to do it right and money to make it easier...
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15X80 Orion Binoculars
114mm Celestron NexStar
One of the last 12" Certified DBA dobs
Omni XLT120 on CG4
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stefsaber
Post Laureate
Reged: 06/24/06
Posts: 4941
Loc: Rainy Florida
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Quote:
Thanks everyone, you have given me hope that I will be able to get the pics I want and still send both kids to college! It's like everything else... takes time and patience to do it right and money to make it easier...
Its completely feasible, I'm heading off to college next year and through the insights of numerous CN members, I have a reasonably priced astrophotography setup within reach...By Christmas at any rate
A Small refractor of the Orion 80ED type
A Stable mount, LXD75 or CGE5...nothing fancy
Focal Reducer
And Clear Skies
For about $900-1300...depending on whether the stuff was new/used...
No need for a $2000 mount and $2000 refractor, this setup should work out fine...
Just set aside $1000 as the total goal and you can easily accomplish that!
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-Stefan
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." -Douglas Adams
Current Equip: Zhummel 10" Dob
Past Scopes: ETX 90---Vixen ED80Sf---WO 66SD--WO Megrez 80II Triplet
Fort Myers, FL
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Snaproll
Postmaster
Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 5095
Loc: Green Bay
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Well, I think the key to good imaging is lessening "error". There are two ways to do this, either by gaining more experience or with more expensive and high end equipment.
Low end equipment has more potential to introduce error. A low end mount like the CG-5 doesn't have periodic error correction, horrible declination response and backlash (at least mine did), and a polar scope that is basically junk.
All of these things can be 'corrected' to some extent with experience. A more accurate polar alignment eliminates much of the tracking problems. Using a fast scope like an f5 80ED also minimizes these problems by having shorter exposure times and a wider field.
The problem I see is that often people just starting the astrophotography learning curve compound this with more difficult to work with equipment.
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Jim W Astro images
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ClownFish
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
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Spending a lot of money on hi-tech equipment also makes it much easier to screw up. My philosophy for learning astrophotography is to keep it simple. Start with an ordinary lens on a camera and learn accurate Polar Alignment and guiding. Skill makes you astrophotographer, not tools. While the commercial ads tell you otherwise, there is no such thing as point and shoot astrophotography.
CF
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Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15091
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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Like everything else in life, it pays to learn the fundamentals.
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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ZachK
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 769
Loc: Israel
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Quote:
Geeze Peter, get out of here with that stuff!
Of course, Peter didn't get those kind of results the first night under the stars. It takes some effort and trial & error, but Peter doesn't mind lending a hand to minimize some of the pain.
Sometimes, spending a boatload of money can make it easier, but there's no guarantee.
I should point out that in my first few rolls I had some definite keepers. I got some pretty nice wide field shots of Taurus with my Rolli in the first roll I had ever shot with it. I had also never used anything even at all like it. I have become totally hooked on Medium format since that first roll. There is nothing like 120 format film for wide field work! (Well except maybe 4x5) but I haven't tried that yet.
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Zach Kessin
Ariel Israel
Orion XT10i, Stratus 5, 13 & 21, random Plossls
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Two little boys who like using the scope with their dad
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s58y
Postmaster
Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 6505
Loc: Eastern NY
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If you want cheap, try a barndoor tracker, an unmodded SLR (preferably one that you already have), and an old camera lenses.
The problem with ultra-cheap equipment like the barndoor is poor yield of good subexposures. I've shot DSOs with a barndoor and also the G-11 + autoguider. The barndoor offers simplicity of setup, but certainly not peace of mind while shooting. Most nights, various minor problems would arise that would spoil a good fraction of the subexposures. Perhaps 30% were lost to barndoor problems.
The initial setup for the G-11 + autoguider is certainly more complex (even without messing with the GOTO setup). However, with aggressive autoguiding, you get close to 100% yield rate on good subexposures, despite the G-11's well-known lack of smooth tracking. I just keep a constant eye on the autoguider error graph (looking for problems, like dragging cables, small high clouds, etc.), and examine each subexposure as it gets uploaded. The G-11 + autoguiding imaging experience is a lot more pleasant.
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Hutech 500D/T1i, 550D/T2i, DMK21AU618, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis, EdgeHD 800
Lenses: 800mm, 180mm, 135mm, 105mm, 85mm
AP900, Barndoor tracker
http://www.flickr.com/photos/s58y/
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skyglow1
member
Reged: 06/22/06
Posts: 43
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
Nor do you need a computer. These shots are all 100% straight from the developer. No post processing of any kind was done, except to crop them to fit these tiny squares! No color correction, flats, darks, etc.. No stacking either, as they are all SINGLE exposures.
CF
Well I'd think that if people are reading this on CN then they already have a computer or at least acces to one? 
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4" Sky Watcher 1025AZ3 achromatic refractor
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