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ClownFish
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Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: skyglow1]
      #1241070 - 11/08/06 02:48 AM

True. But reading a post on a website and post processing with photoshop are two different animals.

CF

--------------------



Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!


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Schmendr1ck
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 581
Loc: Orlando, FL
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: ZachK]
      #1241075 - 11/08/06 03:06 AM

Nice timing on this thread - I've started to look at my first AP setup as well, and I've spent some time lately lurking the AP forums. The folks there seem to fall squarely into two camps. Some say, "Get what you can afford and start taking pictures now," while many others seem to say, "Save your money until you can afford the best, otherwise don't bother." I don't mean that to sound too harsh, it's just the impression I've gotten.

Anyway, I fall somewhere in the middle. I'd like a setup that I will grow into as I learn AP, and that I can eventually use to produce decent photos, but also something that I can get for (substantially) less than $2000.

I've been looking at much the same setup as Stef for beginning AP: an Orion 80ED on a CG-5A mount with - sorry Clownfish - a DSI Pro or (yikes!) Pro II.

All told, about $1700-2000 new, depending on my choice of CCD, but I should be able to get this stuff used for a good bit less. I'm also hoping that the CG-5A can pull double-duty as a visual goto mount for my 10" newt.

--------------------
Chris

Home:

Dark sky site:

Zhumell 10" Dobsonian
Nexstar 8SE
Vixen R130Sf and ED80Sf
Sirius EQ-G, Vixen Porta Mount
SBIG ST-2000XM w/CFW8A


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Schmendr1ck
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/03/06
Posts: 581
Loc: Orlando, FL
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Schmendr1ck]
      #1241082 - 11/08/06 03:15 AM

On the OTA, I was also looking at the Meade 80ED triplet apo. It's $100 more than the Orion but also f/6 rather than f/7.5. Anybody know how these two compare to each other for AP?

--------------------
Chris

Home:

Dark sky site:

Zhumell 10" Dobsonian
Nexstar 8SE
Vixen R130Sf and ED80Sf
Sirius EQ-G, Vixen Porta Mount
SBIG ST-2000XM w/CFW8A


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ZachK
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 769
Loc: Israel
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Schmendr1ck]
      #1241144 - 11/08/06 07:22 AM

Quote:

Nice timing on this thread - I've started to look at my first AP setup as well, and I've spent some time lately lurking the AP forums. The folks there seem to fall squarely into two camps. Some say, "Get what you can afford and start taking pictures now," while many others seem to say, "Save your money until you can afford the best, otherwise don't bother." I don't mean that to sound too harsh, it's just the impression I've gotten.

Anyway, I fall somewhere in the middle. I'd like a setup that I will grow into as I learn AP, and that I can eventually use to produce decent photos, but also something that I can get for (substantially) less than $2000.





I fall squarly in the Get something that works and get it cheep and learn as best you can, then upgrade camp. Scopes etc cost a lot more in Israel than in the US, and I make less, so I have to make do. Now that being said I lucked out in that someone gave me a Rolliflex, which is just a great camera. I plan to play with film and low tech stuff as much as I can for as long as I can. At some point I am going to get a good equitorial mount and put a 4x5 large format camera on it and take wide field shots of the milky way. I'm looking forward to that!

--------------------
Zach Kessin
Ariel Israel
Orion XT10i, Stratus 5, 13 & 21, random Plossls
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Two little boys who like using the scope with their dad



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Patrick
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Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 10382
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: conus]
      #1241181 - 11/08/06 09:04 AM

Quote:

I've seen work done with an NJP and plenty of work with a G-11 that didn't equal images taken by Jim Solomon and Jim Thommes, both of whom use the CG5. A CG5 with go-to is only $699.00.

If you're willing to go through a steeper learning curve and do a little more work, you can do digital imaging a LOT more cheaply than you would be led to believe by some internet advice.




Just some random thoughts.

I've read thru Jim Solomans articles and I've come to the conclusion that the mount is only a small part of the process of doing astrophotography. More of the work is centered around the entire setup, the cameras and guidescopes, focusing, guiding, etc. I agree with you, Steve, that more can be done with less expensive gear, but if you start adding up the cost of all that gear, it's still pretty expensive. HERE is Jim's list of gear (scroll down). It does make film look attractive.

Nevertheless, like you, I don't think I'd ever use film unless I was in an area that allowed me to image on a regular basis. Where I'm at now if I get to image once every two weeks I'm fortunate, more like once a month. The problem with film is that is has a high learning curve. At that rate I'll learn how to image in about 5 years. So, bottom line is that digital for me is a no-brainer. But it does have it's problems too, just different ones.

Right now I'm trying to decide if I want to spend more time with the DSLR or get a Meade DSI Pro II CCD camera. As I mentioned above, it seems to me that a great deal of the work and expense of digital astrophotography comes from the 'accessories' rather from just the mount. And it seems like the DSI II may simplify the process a little, but I don't know if I'd save any money and I don't know if it would be any better.

Patrick

--------------------

CPC1100;AT66ED;Denk S1;
EdgeHD C8; C6 SCT
6"f/4.8MN ES Comet Hunter
10"f/6 Newt
Vixen GP2;CGEM Mount
Canon 60D;Lodestar Guider


The Lord sits enthroned above the circle of the earth...He stretched out the heavens like a canopy.


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ClownFish
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Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Patrick]
      #1241257 - 11/08/06 09:51 AM

Actually, Patrick, I disagree that film imaging has a STEEPER learning curve. It certainly has a LONGER one.

There's a LOT more things to worry about in digital imaging, and thus a HIGHER curve than film. But because digital has instant feedback, the curve is steep but short. In film, you have less to worry about, but since feedback can take days between trials, you have a longer learning curve.

Just my opinion

CF

--------------------



Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!


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Rev2010
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/25/06
Posts: 1131
Loc: NYC & Bayonne, NJ
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: ClownFish]
      #1241268 - 11/08/06 09:55 AM

Quote:

But becuase digital has instant feedback, your curve is steep but short.


'

Excellent way to put it CF! It's definitely steeper than film. Film is primarily a long single exposure whereas digital there's a ton of stacking, dark frames, and with some CCD's LRGB has to be imaged each individually. Certainly NOT as easy as taking a single long exposure. The pain with film though is keeping as much tracking error out as possible. Plus the right exposure time, film, developing, etc.


Rev.

--------------------

Meade 10" LX90 LNT
TeleVue Panoptic 22mm
Baader Hyperion 17mm
Televue Nagler 12T4 & 9T6
WO 40mm SWAN
WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
DGM Optics NPB filter
Lumicon OIII filter
Baader Moon & Skyglow filter
Celestron 15x70 Binocs


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ClownFish
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Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Rev2010]
      #1241286 - 11/08/06 10:05 AM

Quote:

keeping as much tracking error out as possible. Both RA and DEC. Plus the right exposure time, film, developing




Tracking errors are reduced with guiding and Polar alignment. Good polar alignment is cheap.. it just takes time and attention to detail. My military career comes in handy here. Once you have excellent polar alignment you have virtualy eliminated DEC error.

Exposure time? Simple for DSO work. Go for as long as you can! I shoot 30 minutes as a MINIMUM, except for globulars, in which I do a 10 minute sub and a 30 minute one. Same with the Orion Neb. The rest I go as long as I can before my neck gets tired!

Film? easychoice - Kodak E200 or Fujichrome 400F. Slide film eliminates development problems. Drop it off; pick it up... perfect every time. No human judgment about color balance or exposure, as in prints.

CF

--------------------



Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!


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Rev2010
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 09/25/06
Posts: 1131
Loc: NYC & Bayonne, NJ
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab [Re: ClownFish]
      #1241292 - 11/08/06 10:10 AM

Quote:

Tracking errors are reduced with guiding and Polar alignment. Good polar alignment is cheap.. it just takes time and attention to detail




I know. But what I'm saying is with CCD imaging some effects such as field rotation between can be dealt with via the software. You take several shorter images and in the software you pick alignment stars and it rotates the images to overlay correctly - something that can't be done with film as you need the longer times to expose the film. No?


Rev.

--------------------

Meade 10" LX90 LNT
TeleVue Panoptic 22mm
Baader Hyperion 17mm
Televue Nagler 12T4 & 9T6
WO 40mm SWAN
WO 2" Dielectric Diagonal
DGM Optics NPB filter
Lumicon OIII filter
Baader Moon & Skyglow filter
Celestron 15x70 Binocs


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ZachK
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 769
Loc: Israel
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Rev2010]
      #1241299 - 11/08/06 10:15 AM

the other advantage of film is that you can get film in much larger sizes than you can a CCD chip. I have been shooting 120 format which ends up being 6cm x 6cm, and if I can ever get a heavy eq mount I will probably start working in large format, which gives you a really huge piece of sky with a lot of details as your collecting area is a 4x5inch film.

--------------------
Zach Kessin
Ariel Israel
Orion XT10i, Stratus 5, 13 & 21, random Plossls
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Two little boys who like using the scope with their dad



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ClownFish
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Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: ZachK]
      #1241323 - 11/08/06 10:37 AM

Ok... this is starting to stray a bit. We're not getting into a debate on film vs digital here.

1. The fact is that you can do astrophotography without taking a 2nd mortgage on your home. The cost of AMATEURE hobby astrophotography can be as low as $25 to many thousands of dollars. Each individual must decide what they can afford, and what degree of personal time and financial investment they wish to spend.

2. The QUALITY of the astrophotography depends much more on SKILL than equipment... to a point.. and then the higher end equipment begins to out perform the lower cost alternatives (after lots of skill have been developed. This is true with any hobby... A more expensive paint brush does not make you a better artist.
3. The EASE of the different types of astrophotography, vary according to skill, equipment and each individual situation.

There is no single answer to this hobby.

CF

--------------------



Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!


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miniventures
Something Else


Reged: 09/13/03
Posts: 11259
Loc: Powell Butte, Central Oregon
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: ClownFish]
      #1241419 - 11/08/06 11:45 AM

Quote:

A more expensive paint brush does not make you a better artist.


A VERY nice anology, CF

--------------------
LarryC
Volunteer
http://www.sunrivernaturecenter.org






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conus
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Reged: 10/12/03
Posts: 3038
Loc: OC, Calif
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: miniventures]
      #1241459 - 11/08/06 12:03 PM

Quote:

I agree with you, Steve, that more can be done with less expensive gear, but if you start adding up the cost of all that gear, it's still pretty expensive.




Still, even with a used DSLR, a cheap guide scope and webcam for guiding, plus the $1200.00 for a new CG5 and Orion ED80, and a few odds and ends like focal reducers, adapters etc., you would still be around the price of a new G-11/Gemini, which is comparatively cheap.

Nevertheless, I wish some of the high-end mount makers could find a way to price a high weight capacity mount a little more competitively. Something like the EQ6 but a little bigger.

--------------------
Steve R.
Orion XT12
Fujinon 10x42
Oberwerk 12x60
Garrett Optical 15x70

http://www.telescopesinhistory.com


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Snaproll
Postmaster


Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 5095
Loc: Green Bay
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: skyglow1]
      #1241514 - 11/08/06 12:28 PM

"Spending a lot of money on hi-tech equipment also makes it much easier to screw up."

I don't agree. From my perspective the exact opposite is true. The trick in astrophotography primarily has to do with eliminating tracking errors.

There are three components that are involved, the mount, the guider and the accuracy of the alignment.

The accuracy of the alignment comes with experience. To a certain extent it can be made easier with "high tech" tools like a good polar alignment scope but the main ingredient is still skill and experience. Understanding drift correction, OTA balance, even picking the right terrain to place the mount. The better the alignment, the better the tracking and the less errors that will be introduced. All this is experience based.

Often beginners that are starting on the astrophotography learning curve lack alignment experience and introduce tracking errors. The more error introduced, the more corrections that will need to be carried out by the mount and guider.

As far mounts go, low end mounts cost less because they don't track as well. In other words they have a higher probability of tracking errors because they are simply made cheaper and lack "high tech" refinements like periodic error correction.

If a low end mount like the CG-5 is polar aligned well, it's inherent shortcomings are minimized. If it is not aligned well then those shortcomings manifest themselves and are magnified. A case in point, with "perfect" polar alignment, in theory, no declination corrections need to be made. The CG-5 has horrible declination backlash and very unbalanced response to guider inputs, (at least mine did). So if polar alignment is off the errors are much more magnified and difficult to correct that with a "high tech" mount.

The same is true of guiders. Low end guiders are much harder to work with than "high tech" equipment. Low end guiders need brighter stars or longer exposure times to reliably guide.

A case in point is the Meade 201XT and SBIG's STV. These two stand alone guiders are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. One is "low end" and the other "high tech". I've had both and can say that both are capable of guiding. The STV is practically effortless where the "low end" 102XT was far more complicated, unreliable and much easier to "screw up".

The longer a guider needs to do an exposure means the longer the mount has to track unassisted between corrections. A "high tech" guider will feed corrections more frequently and the results will be better tracking. But a combination of a low end guider and low end mount translates to quite a bit of accumulated errors that can only be minimized by a good polar alignment.

So my thoughts are that it actually takes a high amount of skill and experience to be able to take good images using low end equipment.

Most beginners tend to start out with low end equipment which to me would make the task of building their skillset a lot more difficult.

My thought is that there is a fairly steep learning curve to do astrophotography. A person on that curve can actually have their progress stalled or even decide to give up because of fighting with equipment that is not up to the task or not up to their skill level to make it perform well.

This is why I diasagree with... "Spending a lot of money on hi-tech equipment also makes it much easier to screw up."

On the contrary, I think it speeds the learning curve and success rate much more than struggling with low end equipment that takes a fairly high expertise level to get to work work effecively.

--------------------
Jim W Astro images


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ZachK
professor emeritus


Reged: 08/21/05
Posts: 769
Loc: Israel
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: conus]
      #1241540 - 11/08/06 12:47 PM

Quote:


Still, even with a used DSLR, a cheap guide scope and webcam for guiding, plus the $1200.00 for a new CG5 and Orion ED80, and a few odds and ends like focal reducers, adapters etc., you would still be around the price of a new G-11/Gemini, which is comparatively cheap.

Nevertheless, I wish some of the high-end mount makers could find a way to price a high weight capacity mount a little more competitively. Something like the EQ6 but a little bigger.




Maybe its just me but $1200 does not seem particularly cheep to me. It could be my Israeli paycheck talking though. Right now I'm trying to find $500 for a 100mm acro on a eq-3 mount from Orion (and trying to figure out how to get it to Israel) and that is going to take me a while.

--------------------
Zach Kessin
Ariel Israel
Orion XT10i, Stratus 5, 13 & 21, random Plossls
15x70 Celestron Skymaster Binoculars
Two little boys who like using the scope with their dad



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Paul Rix
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Reged: 11/06/04
Posts: 3421
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: ZachK]
      #1241558 - 11/08/06 01:02 PM

I think one thing that should be considered though is developing costs. Typically, how much film is wasted while on that long learning curve with poor or mediocre results? In the hands of someone who really knows what they are doing (ie Peter) I guess the returns are pretty consistent and represent excellent value for money. Getting to that point though is going to be rather wasteful and extremely time consuming. That is the beauty of digital imaging (ie initial one time investment and the progress made will be that much faster because of the instant feedback). As for the scope and mount options, I wholeheartedly agree that you don't need a multi-thousand dollar mount and scope to get some very pleasing results. I recently picked up a second hand LXD75 mount and ED80 refractor for a combined cost of about $800.

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Snaproll
Postmaster


Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 5095
Loc: Green Bay
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Paul Rix]
      #1241605 - 11/08/06 01:32 PM

Quote:

Typically, how much film is wasted while on that long learning curve with poor or mediocre results?... That is the beauty of digital imaging (ie initial one time investment and the progress made will be that much faster because of the instant feedback).




I agree completely. I used to shoot film before DSLRs. Learning the tricks of the trade requires feedback. If you can see an image instantly you can make corrections to focus, exposure, tracking and continue shooting. With film there is no feedback until you develop the film. An entire night imaging can be wasted because of some glitch that goes undetected.

As far as expense goes, I'd think older DSLRs like a Canon 60D would be going really cheap right now, maybe a couple hundred bucks? When factoring the cost of film, the development of the film, the enlarging and printing of the good images and the time and travel required to do film, I would think you'd be money ahead going with a DSLR.

--------------------
Jim W Astro images


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ClownFish
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Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 6254
Loc: Baghdad, Iraq
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab new [Re: Paul Rix]
      #1241611 - 11/08/06 01:36 PM

Quote:

"Spending a lot of money on hi-tech equipment also makes it much easier to screw up."

I don't agree.




Oops, my bad. You are correct sir.
What I meant to say was to compare simple piggyback astrophotography with prime focus or eyepiece projection. Once you boost up the imaging focal length and add the guiders, you have a whole different ball game.

CF

--------------------



Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!


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ClownFish
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Reged: 04/26/05
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Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab [Re: ClownFish]
      #1241621 - 11/08/06 01:45 PM

About the developing costs.. yes that will certainly add up when you are learning. But many people I know can easily afford $15 - $20 every payday, but can not afford $300 for decent CCD imager and then a laptop on top of that. And for those people, a DSLR is out of the question.

For those who CAN afford the complete digital route, I agree that it's a great way to start! But I'm here to help guide those who can not afford to do that and are told that there is no alternative. There is. And there is now NO commercial telescope company that will tell them that film still works, since it would bite into sales of the CCD imagers.

CF

--------------------



Learn all about Polar Alignment and Manual Guiding on my website at www.PetesAstrophotography.com! Or visit my Foreign Service Blog!


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s58y
Postmaster


Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 6505
Loc: Eastern NY
Re: Aspiring photographers-- Something to think ab [Re: Paul Rix]
      #1241660 - 11/08/06 02:06 PM

Quote:

My thought is that there is a fairly steep learning curve to do astrophotography. A person on that curve can actually have their progress stalled or even decide to give up because of fighting with equipment that is not up to the task or not up to their skill level to make it perform well.

This is why I diasagree with... "Spending a lot of money on hi-tech equipment also makes it much easier to screw up."




I'd also disagree that high-end equipment makes it easier to screw up. With autoguiding, PEC software, GOTO, polar alignment software, software-driven motorized focusers, field curvature and image analyzers, automatic sequencing and dithering software, motorized camera rotators, motorized filter wheels, LRGB combining, narrowband filters, etc, etc, there are more different ways to foul up, of course.

With a simple barndoor, DSLR, and manual focus camera lens, there are far fewer different things that can go wrong, but those few things are much more likely to go wrong and spoil your images. Polar alignment, tracking, and (perhaps) focus are three big problem areas.

Of course, when you're just starting out, I'd suggest going low end, with a very short focal length scope or telephoto lens, and have modest expectations. As you encounter (and perhaps resolve) each of the imaging problems, you'll progress up the learning curve, and will be better able to choose what equipment upgrades will give the most benefit for your favorite targets and shooting conditions. For DSO astrophotogaphy, I'm guessing that (budget permitting) you'll ultimately end up with a high-end mount, a couple of flat-field imaging scopes or astrographs, a good autoguider, and one or more medium to high-end CCD imagers (maybe also a DSLR, with camera lenses), and even a 2nd home up in the dark (but cloudy) mountains.

--------------------
Hutech 500D/T1i, 550D/T2i, DMK21AU618, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis, EdgeHD 800
Lenses: 800mm, 180mm, 135mm, 105mm, 85mm
AP900, Barndoor tracker

http://www.flickr.com/photos/s58y/


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