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k0mu
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Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Shakopee, MN
Need tips - new to DSLR imaging
      #1346960 - 01/07/07 08:02 PM Attachment (52 downloads)

Hi:

This is pretty much my first decent picture with my camera.

I've been monkeying aroud with my unmoded Rebel through an old Meade LX50. I autoguide with a small scope on top and the PE is still pretty bad. (50 arc/sec peak-peak and with autoguider on, it jitters around 3 arc seconds).

I have a 6.3 reducer attached to the T adapter. Looks like I need to shorten the tube a bit to get rid of the round distortion.

Here is a link to the raw data:

http://idisk.mac.com/jaylyle-Public/?view=web&lang=en

I processed the image with DSLR Focus.

Anyway, do you folks think it's a lost cause with my current scope?

http://homepage.mac.com/jaylyle

Jay

Attachment


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s58y
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Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 6505
Loc: Eastern NY
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: k0mu]
      #1347007 - 01/07/07 08:25 PM

Good first image of M42 (a lot better than my early M42 images).

My G-11 can "jitter" up to 5-6 arc-seconds with the autoguider, on occasions. Based on your image here, it looks like you can capture large targets pretty well with your current scope and a DSLR.

One possibility is to image with a small (but good) scope on the top, and autoguide through the main scope.

--------------------
Hutech 500D/T1i, 550D/T2i, DMK21AU618, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis, EdgeHD 800
Lenses: 800mm, 180mm, 135mm, 105mm, 85mm
AP900, Barndoor tracker

http://www.flickr.com/photos/s58y/


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NeoDinian
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Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 14043
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Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: s58y]
      #1347019 - 01/07/07 08:31 PM

Well, the 2 story pier isn't helping with the Jitters either.. If I remember right, (way back when you built it), you were concerned with possible transfer of vibrations from the Deck-post piers through the ground to the scope-pier... Did you ever determine if that was a problem?

Whats your imaging train look like? you do have some Vignetting in that image.

--------------------
Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"

Rockford, Il.

NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!

Coming soon:


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k0mu
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Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Shakopee, MN
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: NeoDinian]
      #1347034 - 01/07/07 08:39 PM

Yup, vibrations are transferred via the 10 foot pier if I jump on the deck. Also, it was quite windy when I took these pictures.

Details:
5 120 second at 1600
9 60 second at 800

Optics train:
Scope->Microfocuser->6.3 reducer->Meade T adapter->camera

I can remove about 3 cm from the T-adapter to get rid of the vinetting, I think.

I've been thinking about getting an Atlas EQ-G Goto in place of the LX50 forks.

Jay


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NeoDinian
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Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: k0mu]
      #1347097 - 01/07/07 09:11 PM

Quote:

Yup, vibrations are transferred via the 10 foot pier if I jump on the deck. Also, it was quite windy when I took these pictures.

Details:
5 120 second at 1600
9 60 second at 800

Optics train:
Scope->Microfocuser->6.3 reducer->Meade T adapter->camera

I can remove about 3 cm from the T-adapter to get rid of the vinetting, I think.

I've been thinking about getting an Atlas EQ-G Goto in place of the LX50 forks.

Jay




You'd still get the jitters if you're currently experiencing them... Still, not bad for what you have.


Try with the shorter adapter.. You'll lose the vignetting, and gain a slightly wider field.

--------------------
Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"

Rockford, Il.

NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!

Coming soon:


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Rusty
Postmaster


Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: NeoDinian]
      #1347304 - 01/07/07 10:45 PM

I think you could shorten your exposure times considerably, and do without the ASA 1600. I'd start with 15 sec at ASA 400 and work upwards in sensitivity.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger


Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 12501
Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: k0mu]
      #1348070 - 01/08/07 12:08 PM Attachment (37 downloads)

Quote:

Hi:

This is pretty much my first decent picture with my camera.

I've been monkeying aroud with my unmoded Rebel through an old Meade LX50. I autoguide with a small scope on top and the PE is still pretty bad. (50 arc/sec peak-peak and with autoguider on, it jitters around 3 arc seconds).

I have a 6.3 reducer attached to the T adapter. Looks like I need to shorten the tube a bit to get rid of the round distortion.

Here is a link to the raw data:

http://idisk.mac.com/jaylyle-Public/?view=web&lang=en

I processed the image with DSLR Focus.

Anyway, do you folks think it's a lost cause with my current scope?

http://homepage.mac.com/jaylyle

Jay




Good shot of Orion.
I was wondering..You said you stacked images to get this final image. How is that working?

I used my unmoded 350D
with my homemade 6"f/6.5
Cropped
No filters, simple prime image at about 40 seconds at ISO 800. Why are single exposure images not as pronounced as stacked images?
I think for the time spent my image is working for me.
Any thoughts

Rob

Attachment

--------------------
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group. www.goldmtobservingcenter.com

www.vimeo.com/6014031


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k0mu
member


Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Shakopee, MN
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #1348318 - 01/08/07 02:02 PM

I used DeepSkyStacker - it is freeware. Your single image is way better than mine. Congrats!

The idea of stacking is that it reduces the signal/noise ratio. Take a bunch of 1 minute raw (CR2) shots and have DeepSkyStacker stack the images.

I was hoping that a sage image processor could try my raw data (stong hint).

Your image is good because your scope is 'faster' than mine. Mine is f/6.3.

Jay


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger


Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 12501
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Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: k0mu]
      #1348477 - 01/08/07 03:10 PM

Quote:

I used DeepSkyStacker - it is freeware. Your single image is way better than mine. Congrats!

The idea of stacking is that it reduces the signal/noise ratio. Take a bunch of 1 minute raw (CR2) shots and have DeepSkyStacker stack the images.

I was hoping that a sage image processor could try my raw data (stong hint).

Your image is good because your scope is 'faster' than mine. Mine is f/6.3.

Jay




I also didn't have my camera set to RAW.
Did you convert to black scale? I didn't notice any color in your image.

When the moon gets darker(probably Friday), I will try again and take a longer exposure in RAW format.
Still, Orion is pretty bright and more data is being gathered then noise. I think any way.

I plan on trying HA filters, and other tricks to see how the camera plays.

Thanks for the nice comments. This was my very first astro image with this camera, and my set-up. I'm developing new techniques to manually guide with my big 6"f/15, and control shutter operations with the camera/6"f/6.5.
It's all so fun.

Rob

--------------------
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group. www.goldmtobservingcenter.com

www.vimeo.com/6014031


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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2571
Loc: Rochester, NY
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #1348546 - 01/08/07 03:56 PM

Quote:

I was wondering..You said you stacked images to get this final image. How is that working?

I used my unmoded 350D
with my homemade 6"f/6.5
Cropped
No filters, simple prime image at about 40 seconds at ISO 800. Why are single exposure images not as pronounced as stacked images?



Stacking photos increases the signal to noise ratio, which can accomplish two things:
- Stretch the image with software image processing to reveal deeper details
- Reveal less detail but with far smoother results (less 'grainy' or 'noisy')

http://www.samirkharusi.net/sub-exposures.html
This webpage has examples of what stacking does to reduce noise. Also explains how long your exposures should be based on the amount of light pollution / skyfog at your imaging location.

Mathematically, the simplest form of stacking is to use addition. You first line the images up (aka registering or aligning), then at each pixel location, the software adds the brightness values (with values for the R, G, B components, i.e. 255,255,255 is white, 255,0,0 is red, and 0,0,0 is black etc). Addition is the best stacking method with regards to signal to noise, however in practice rarely is the best method.

Cosmic rays, satellites, airplanes, meteorites show up in exposures (aka subexposures or subs), cosmic rays being the most common. When you add your stack, all of these defects in every sub shows up. To beat this there are a variety of statistical sampling methods which reduces to varying degrees the end result signal to noise ratio:
- average (this will produce the smoothest result but fainter details will be lost)
- median
- min-max rejection (removes the highest and lowest values at a given pixel location, effective at removing cosmic rays)
- sigma clipping (generally best at removing bright pixels without sacrificing too much signal to noise)

Software programs which do stacking:
- Iris (free! Google Iris and it's in the top 10)
- ImagesPlus
- DeepSkyStacker
- MaxImDL
- Astrostack
- Keith's Image Stacker
- PixInsight
- Photoshop (using a cumbersome manual process)
etc etc

Some of these programs do more than image stacking. For example, ImagesPlus will also automate your DSLR exposures (provided you have the right cables and a laptop at the telescope).

ALWAYS SHOOT ASTROPHOTOS IN RAW!!! NEVER JPEG!!
JPEG destroys information, and makes dark frame and flat frame subtraction impossible. JPEG changes the pixel brightness values at a given location when it performs the compression, and this change is irreversible. Save as JPEG as the absolute last, last step for presentation on the web or to friends in email.

http://www.saratogaskies.com/articles/cookbook/
This site will tell you how to use Iris, which will read your camera raw files, do all the necessary processing, and save it as a TIFF or PSD file to import into an image editing program (such as photoshop).

You can always re-process an image; you can never take that same photograph again. Shooting in RAW means you'll have the best data possible. When you learn more image processing you can always re-use the raw file. You can re-use a raw image next year when you re-photograph an object; you can't re-use or stack a JPEG. Collect good data now, figure out the processing part later.

And finally, take TONS of photos.
There's no way around it. I tried, I tried, I tried.
50-60-80-100 pictures over one or several nights of the same object. This can only be beat by astro-cooled CCDs on 40" research scopes. It sucks, it takes forever, but its the nature of the hobby. Autoguiding and DSLR Focus or DSLR control or a Canon Remote timer makes this way less labor intensive and way more spouse-friendly It can be done manually but you'll be at the scope all night.
You won't get good results until you do this. Heck, you may not get good results if you DO do this
Even a stack of 10 is better than a single image (1-hour exposure using a $12,000 Paramount ME mount and a pristine dark sky site being the exception)

--------------------
LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D (LifePixel clear glass mod) and 5DMkII, unmodified
Canon EF 200/2L IS, 400/5.6L, 100/2.8 Macro, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 35L, 24L, 17-40L and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger


Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 12501
Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: Andrew Welsh]
      #1348594 - 01/08/07 04:15 PM

Andrew,
Thanks for the great links and wonderful assistance.

Rob

--------------------
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group. www.goldmtobservingcenter.com

www.vimeo.com/6014031


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k0mu
member


Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Shakopee, MN
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: Andrew Welsh]
      #1349042 - 01/08/07 08:03 PM

Nice explaination Andrew!

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k0mu
member


Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Shakopee, MN
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: k0mu]
      #1349446 - 01/08/07 11:39 PM

THANKS all for the tips. I going to keep the LX50 for now. I can't justify the cost of a new mount/scope right now. I simply have to throw away about 25% of my subs. If a g11 can jitter 5 arc seconds(by jitter, I mean the guiding corrections), the current mount is fine.

As far as goto, my thoughts are that one can probably image one object per night. I can go out on the deck and point the scope manually for that.

Using a "small but good" refractor seems like excellent advice.

So long story short.. I need to concentrate on getting tons of subs and learn the ropes of post processing (no one taking my hint on someone downloading the raw data to show me what I can eventually attain by processing?)

THANKS AGAIN!

Jay


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/06/03
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Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: k0mu]
      #1349610 - 01/09/07 01:22 AM

Note that not all processing programs can use RAW images with the proprietery Canon format (.crw). Photoshop CS (with a plug-in) can, as can AIP4WIN v2.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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rwiederrich
Goldfinger


Reged: 11/17/05
Posts: 12501
Loc: Always Dark skies of Belfair W...
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: Andrew Welsh]
      #1350344 - 01/09/07 12:27 PM

Andrew,

I down loaded Iris last night and played with it, to get the hang of its settings.

Pretty cool stuff. I noticed the hard way, before rereading your post that you can't stack JPEG files. I tried and it continually said I needed to find a zone. this I am assuming is locating the area you want the program to identify as the area most needed to align the stacks...

Any way I now need to take lots of images in RAW form, then try to learn to process them....Whooh, what a steep learning curve.

Thanks for the idea to get Iris.

Rob

--------------------
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/HomemadeRefractorTelescopes/ My homemade refractor group. www.goldmtobservingcenter.com

www.vimeo.com/6014031


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imjeffp
Aluminum Falcon


Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 6103
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: rwiederrich]
      #1350357 - 01/09/07 12:32 PM

Quote:

Try with the shorter adapter.. You'll lose the vignetting, and gain a slightly wider field.




Other way around. The closer the reducer to the imager, the less reduction. The sweet spot for the Meade FR is between 85 and 115 mm IIRC.

Nebulosity and PHD Guiding are worth looking at with your setup. http://www.stark-labs.com


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NeoDinian
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Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: imjeffp]
      #1350376 - 01/09/07 12:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Try with the shorter adapter.. You'll lose the vignetting, and gain a slightly wider field.




Other way around. The closer the reducer to the imager, the less reduction. The sweet spot for the Meade FR is between 85 and 115 mm IIRC.

Nebulosity and PHD Guiding are worth looking at with your setup. http://www.stark-labs.com




Really? I thought it the other way similar to EP Projection.. The further the camera is from the EP, the more mag you get, the closer, the less...

Wouldn't this also apply to the reducer. The further away you get, you'll magnify the view, the closer the wider?

--------------------
Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"

Rockford, Il.

NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!

Coming soon:


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imjeffp
Aluminum Falcon


Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 6103
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Re: Need tips - new to DSLR imaging new [Re: NeoDinian]
      #1350552 - 01/09/07 02:07 PM

The reducer works like a barlows, only reversed. If i mount mine directly to the t-ring with a low profile adapter, it doesn't vignette, but the FOV is smaller.

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