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Ortho2000
sage


Reged: 01/09/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Northern Virginia
IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid Prism
      #1510249 - 03/27/07 09:42 PM

There have been some discussions of the various types of Image Stabilization Designs used in today's modern binoculars. Canon, Nikon, and Fujinon all make Image Stabilized binoculars.

But do some IS designs have advangates over others ? There have been some assertions that Canon's IS system using what the writer calls " mushy fluid-filled wet-bag prisms" may lead to some softness of te image.

The full report is at : Canon Soft Bag Prism Article

As I stated in another thread, currently I am not in the market for an Image Stabilized binocular. Nevertheless I am intrigued by various posts asserting that the "soft prism design" of Canon may cause possible image degradation when IS is activated.. This is in contrast to some other competing designs by Fujinon and Nikon, for example, which use an alternative IS or vibration reduction (VR) system which does nor rely on "soft prisms". In other words, the traditional rigid prisms are employed.

Ken Rockwell goes on to say :

Quote:

These Fujinons impressed me because they have stabilization as well as the sharpness of the other high-end non-stabilized binoculars. They are the best of both worlds. They don't get softer with stabilization ON.

These Fujinons use solid-glass shifting prisms to stabilize the image. Canon uses mushy fluid-filled wet-bag prisms, which is why I suspect the Canons get softer with IS active. With IS, the Canons often have a constant dithering of the edges; artifacts of the interaction of the IS system with the motions it's attempting to counter. The Fujinons have none of these problems and lock down a sharp, rock-stable image. The Canons fade in and out of sharpness.





Does anyone have any comments re the pros and cons of the soft vs. rigid prism IS/VR approach to stabilization ? This is not a post about why IS is bad and why non-IS binoculars are better. Instead I am asking for feedback, contrast, and comparison of the various competing IS systems from Fujinon, Canon, Zeiss, Fujinon, and others.

--------------------
Ancient Orange Astro C-90 Celestron
Ancient Meade 2080 8 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain
Vixen ED115S APO 4 1/2 in Refractor & GPD2 Mount.
Meade ETX125 Mak
Unitron 60 mm F/15 Equatorial Refractor
Unitron 100 mm F/15 Equatorial Refractor
Stellarvue 80mm NHNG on Vixen Portamount
Meade 80mm DS-80AT F/11 GoTo Refractor (yardsale)
Vixen 16x80, Zeiss 10x40, Tasco #124 7x50 WA, Leitz 8x20 Roof Prism, Olympus 10x25 Roof Prism
Canon 12x36II, & lots of other wacko binoculars


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Joe Ogiba
Postmaster


Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 5446
Loc: NJ USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid Prism new [Re: Ortho2000]
      #1510263 - 03/27/07 09:53 PM

Someone paid big bucks for the Fujinons and wants to justify the extra bucks by saying the image gets soft with the Canon IS binos. Well I had my 15x50's out today for several hours during the day and night and they are the best handheld 15x binoculars on the planet IMHO. The birds I looked at during the day looked like they were 3 ft away from me and I could see all the detail that was there with ZERO softness. And at night Saturn,M42 etc looked fantastic just like a mounted bino. Poor guy, I guess he is sweating his purchase now.

--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED,Meade 102ED APO,Orion EON 72,120ST
Apex 127,C6 XLT,CR150,C9.25,XT10 ,Celestron Regal 100 F-ED, CT152
Zeiss 7x42 FL,Canon 10x42L IS WP,15x50 IS
12x36 IS II , Pentax 8x32 ED
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45, Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
21mm Ethos,17mm Ethos, 22mm Nagler, 40mm Pentax XW, 14mm Pentax XL, 5.2mm Pentax XL, 8-24mm Pentax XL Zoom, 31mm Axiom LX
Member #17


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Erik D
Post Laureate


Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 4066
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid Prism new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #1510368 - 03/27/07 10:58 PM

My only other encoutner with a IS bino other than Canons is the Zeiss 20X60. For ME IS feature is of the most value in binos greater 15X magnification and bigger than 50mm. So the 20X60 IS configuration makes a lot of sense to me. However, I would not spend $4K+ for a 60mm bino. Putting a pair of $500 20X80s on a tripod works just fine. Never considered the smaller and more expensive Nikon or Fujinon IS models either. I think the Canon 12X and 15X models offer better value.

To some spending over $500 for ANY hand held binos is an extravagance, to others $1,200 for a pair of 10X42 plus another dozen binos is perfectly justified. We each have our comfort zone for optics purchase. I currently have a dozen+ binos, none of them are perfect or "best'' for anything. I have not looked thru enough binos to make that kind of statement. Whenever someone on CN tells me they are thinking of getting a pair just like mine I try to relate the positive and the negative of my experience. A model that was "just right" for me 3 years ago may not be for others today. A "best buy" in a magazine review could have a glaring fault in actual field use. (I know because I bought one... ;-))

We should be able to discuss the pros and cons of each design without giving or taking offense.......... It's a hobby, not a contest of equipment ownship.

We have been discussing Canon IS binos on CN going back as 2004. Here is a thread by someone who has tested various models of Canon, Nikon and Fujinon: Canon, Fujinon, Nikon IS

There are dozens of other threads and many reveiws of the Canon IS models here on CN. I think it's safe to say the IS function works better in the smaller 8, 10 and 12 X Canons than the higher power 15/18X models. Those who feel swayed when they look thru higher powered Canon IS are not imagining it. I have seen it myself each time I used my friend's 18X IS.

ERik D


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Ortho2000
sage


Reged: 01/09/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Northern Virginia
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Erik D]
      #1510389 - 03/27/07 11:12 PM

Thanks for the link Erik_D. I had done an earlier search, albeit a poor one, but apparently missed that set. These IS binoculars so remind me of the very early generation Digital Cameras. If folks can recall the bulky digital cameras that Kodak and Apple had available. Very crude looking. Then along came companies like Agfa and Nikon with small swivel bodies like the Nikon 900 series. And..in 2007.. wow ..look what we have now.

I am hoping that these so called IS binoculars will improve, become less bulky, and have improved performance. Given progress in electro-optics...I am sure they will.

I want:

1) Smaller Relative Size given the Objective Diameter & Power

2) Lighter Weight

3) Improved Ergonomics


And progressively lower prices as the technology becomes more affordable to implement.

--------------------
Ancient Orange Astro C-90 Celestron
Ancient Meade 2080 8 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain
Vixen ED115S APO 4 1/2 in Refractor & GPD2 Mount.
Meade ETX125 Mak
Unitron 60 mm F/15 Equatorial Refractor
Unitron 100 mm F/15 Equatorial Refractor
Stellarvue 80mm NHNG on Vixen Portamount
Meade 80mm DS-80AT F/11 GoTo Refractor (yardsale)
Vixen 16x80, Zeiss 10x40, Tasco #124 7x50 WA, Leitz 8x20 Roof Prism, Olympus 10x25 Roof Prism
Canon 12x36II, & lots of other wacko binoculars


Edited by Ortho2000 (03/27/07 11:15 PM)


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Joe Ogiba
Postmaster


Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 5446
Loc: NJ USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Ortho2000]
      #1510405 - 03/27/07 11:20 PM

You must be kidding, Canon IS binoculars have had great reviews for many years.

--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED,Meade 102ED APO,Orion EON 72,120ST
Apex 127,C6 XLT,CR150,C9.25,XT10 ,Celestron Regal 100 F-ED, CT152
Zeiss 7x42 FL,Canon 10x42L IS WP,15x50 IS
12x36 IS II , Pentax 8x32 ED
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45, Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
21mm Ethos,17mm Ethos, 22mm Nagler, 40mm Pentax XW, 14mm Pentax XL, 5.2mm Pentax XL, 8-24mm Pentax XL Zoom, 31mm Axiom LX
Member #17


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Ortho2000
sage


Reged: 01/09/07
Posts: 280
Loc: Northern Virginia
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #1510465 - 03/28/07 12:00 AM

Joe wrote:

Quote:

You must be kidding, Canon IS binoculars have had great reviews for many years.




Yes I agree. Great for now, just not great enough for me.

I am sure that early digital cameras also received great reviews, but they were not quite what certain photographers were looking for. In other words, not great enough for them at the time. I have a lot of Canon L series lenses, most with "IS", and some of the earlier generations of these lenses got great reviews as well. Nevertheless, many were still criticized for having very slow auto focus, or for being too noisy.

I am sure the current Canon IS binoculars have been widely well received, but I personally find the weight and bulk just a bit too excessive for my liking. Many others feel likewise. The ergonomics of pushing and holding certain buttons I think has come in for certain criticisms as well, as has battery life, and extended function in extremely cold weather conditions.

For me, I am going to wait for the next generation of IS binoculars. Yes, it may be a while. For those of you who follow the many photography forum discussions such as those on dpreview.com , you know that image stabiization advances are progressing rapidly. Some systems offer IS in the lenses, while others stabilize the image on a CCD or CMOS sensor. And yes, I know digital cameras differ from binoculars, but the point is that electro-optical design continues to advance. I simply am confident that major IS binocular progress lies ahead, if only initially in terms of reducing bulk and weight.

Perhaps tonight, as I type this, some academic "thinking outside the box engineer" in Beijing, Graz, Berlin, or Pasadena is sketching out a radically new hybrid design for the next generation of IS Binoculars. All I have to say to him ( or her ) is... Schea Schea, Vielen Dank, Danke Sehr, and Like Thanks Tons Dude.

Edited by Ortho2000 (03/28/07 12:09 AM)


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CESDewar
GorillAstronomer


Reged: 01/16/05
Posts: 2085
Loc: Blue Ridge, GA, USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Ortho2000]
      #1510512 - 03/28/07 12:49 AM

Quote:

For me, I am going to wait for the next generation of IS binoculars.




Well...no existing technology is ever as good as technology that will appear in the future. But if you wait till that better technology appears, there will be an even better technology just around the corner.

Is there some image degradation when the IS feature is turned on in the Canon IS binoculars? Yes. Is it a big deal? No. The degradation is very slight but it is observable. If you compare a tripod-mounted Canon with IS turned off with IS turned on, you will see that the image is sharper when the IS is turned off. However, If you are handholding the binoculars, you cannot possibly tell the difference! Tripod-mounting a Canon IS binocular rather obviates the need for IS though, so this is of only academic and not real-world interest.

The Canon optics are of very high quality - with IS shut off, these binoculars perform as well as several premium binoculars priced not much less, and when turned on, it still beats the pants off any other non-IS, handheld binoculars in the same magnification range regardless of price.

--------------------



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Jitter
member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 69
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Ortho2000]
      #1510982 - 03/28/07 10:11 AM

Quote:


.......or Pasadena. Like Thanks Tons Dude.





I love it ! Guess you just had to grow up in Southern California to fully appreciate that one.

Jitter


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Joe Ogiba
Postmaster


Reged: 02/14/02
Posts: 5446
Loc: NJ USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Jitter]
      #1511017 - 03/28/07 10:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:


.......or Pasadena. Like Thanks Tons Dude.





I love it ! Guess you just had to grow up in Southern California to fully appreciate that one.

Jitter





--------------------
Pentax PF-80ED,Meade 102ED APO,Orion EON 72,120ST
Apex 127,C6 XLT,CR150,C9.25,XT10 ,Celestron Regal 100 F-ED, CT152
Zeiss 7x42 FL,Canon 10x42L IS WP,15x50 IS
12x36 IS II , Pentax 8x32 ED
Garrett Optical 28x110 HD-WP Signature Series
Oberwerk BT-80 45, Apogee RA-88-SA
Denk II Power x Switch binoviewer w/13mm Ethos, 20mm Pentax XW's, 20mm Widescan III's.
21mm Ethos,17mm Ethos, 22mm Nagler, 40mm Pentax XW, 14mm Pentax XL, 5.2mm Pentax XL, 8-24mm Pentax XL Zoom, 31mm Axiom LX
Member #17


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Les
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Maryland
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid Prism new [Re: Ortho2000]
      #1511025 - 03/28/07 10:40 AM

For a real explanation of vari angle prisms read this:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmworld/contents/images/47280.pdf

No "wet bag prisms", no sleight of hand.

--------------------
Les

Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod


Edited by Les (03/28/07 11:28 AM)


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Jitter
member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 69
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Jitter]
      #1511068 - 03/28/07 11:10 AM

My observations so far on the limited experience I've had with IS........being as I am looking for the pair that best suits my needs.

First and foremost, they ALL give a better view than any other hand-held bino, "stability wise". i.e., you can better resolve any and all targets better with IS than with comparable non-IS when hand-held. Optically speaking, THAT particular quality depends on the model.

I spent some time with the Canon 12x36 last couple of weeks, and I like that one...... ALOT ! It seems to be the best bang for the buck of the entire field of IS available on the market at present. Up or down in the Canon line, and you see "the differences" pretty quickly. Personally, I think the 12x36 IS II from Canon is a good central-point referrence standard for their line.

I also have had the chance previously to use the Fujinon 14x40 Techno Stabi quite a bit, having had one on loan for awhile. Compared to the Canon, it has significantly more compensation range, a full 5 degrees as opposed to ~0.8 or so on average for the Canons. Depending on the application, this can be a huge benefit, while in others it might prove to be a distraction. But contrary to some reports I've heard and read, the Fujinon actually has very good optics compared to some of the Canons, using Fuji's same proprietary coatings as used on higher end non-IS Fujis.

With that said, I've found that IS proves the general theory of binoculars of all shapes and sizes in that "there are always compromises". What I eventually had to ask myself was whether "the compromises" were worth the added benefits, optically, weight, size, and "other"-wise. Personally for me, the stability FAR AND AWAY outweighs any trade-offs involved, and it's mostly a matter of just finding which IS currently offered provides the widest ranges of uses and features that I find desirable for my own uses with the fewest number of those trade-offs.

Haven't had the opportunity to try out the 10x42L Canon yet (looking forward to doing so), but right now my two favorites are the Fujinon Techo-Stabi 14x40 and the Canon 12x36 IS II. This of course is not in taking their relative costs into consideration, but just basing my likes and dislikes on "what is there" rather than "what's it cost?". Both of my preferences are of very good quality, with the Fuji having the preferred optics and IS system for the widest range of uses, the Canon the preferred weight, size, and cost/performance value. Considering 12x vs 14x, I really don't need "both", so am still weighing the pros and cons, though I am still leaning toward the Fujinons.

Another thread brought up a good point concerning IS however. What kind of long-term reliability and durability are we looking at ? No doubt, non-IS would rate higher in this category.......fewer mechanical parts = less to go wrong over time, obviously. This is another pro/con factor to look at, and whether the added benefits of IS outweigh the possibility, or even likelihood, that IS binos will need more attention, maintenance, or more frequent replacement than non-IS.

Simple bottom line....."Is it worth it?" when the benefits and disadvantages are all weighed into your consideration ? For some of us who appreciate the technology as it "is" at present, it "is" worth it. And like others have mentioned, the technology will be improving for a long time to come, so why keep waiting for next generation while missing out on present enjoyment ? How many of us refuse to buy a computer because the next ones released will be better than the last. Technology obsolesence is unfortunately a fact of life we have to live with. But it's always better than never improving at all. Just think about that the next time you look through a pair of WWII era binos and compare them with a Nikon SE or Zeiss FL.

Jitter

Edited by Jitter (03/28/07 11:39 AM)


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Les
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Maryland
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Jitter]
      #1511100 - 03/28/07 11:26 AM

Quote:

First and foremost, they ALL give a better view than any other hand-held bino, "stability wise". i.e., you can better resolve any and all targets better with IS than with comparable non-IS when hand-held.




Now, if I had said that, the missiles would be coming in from all directions

Quote:

a full 5 degrees as opposed to ~.08



You slipped the decimal point - 0.8 degrees.

Canon is an acknowledged leader in image stabilzed optics. The technology is mature and been around for years. If there are those who can't justify the cost to benefit ratio that is understandable.

--------------------
Les

Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod


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Jitter
member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 69
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Les]
      #1511119 - 03/28/07 11:42 AM

Quote:

You slipped the decimal point - 0.8 degrees.





You're rite.....write.....right......CORRECT. .08 wouldn't help much, would it ?

Jitter


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BillC
on a new path


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Jitter]
      #1511203 - 03/28/07 12:36 PM

"mushy fluid-filled wet-bag prisms"

We have often seen on this list that opinion--if unusual enough--can out shine facts, but:

1) I am a big Fujinon fan.
2) I like the Canons beter.
3) They out sell the Fuji's about 8 to 1 in our store.
4) I have never seen the Canon images "go soft."
5) I have to--with all due respect--question the motivation for his comments.

Cheers,

Bill

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines

It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!


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Les
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Maryland
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: BillC]
      #1511231 - 03/28/07 12:53 PM

Quote:

We have often seen on this list that opinion--if unusual enough--can out shine facts, but:




And, Bill, you can be sure that the same misinformation in the beginning of this thread will be requoted again without the subsequent posted corrections. That's just the way the Internet works

Quote:

I have to--with all due respect--question the motivation for his comments.




You're too much of a gentleman I offer NO respect for the totally clueless remarks in that review.

--------------------
Les

Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod


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Jitter
member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 69
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Les]
      #1511315 - 03/28/07 01:49 PM

Hi Bill,

Just wondered if you had ever been inside the Canons and Fuji, and how they compare mechanically as far as durability. Thanks.

Jitter


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EdZ
Professor EdZ


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Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: Les]
      #1511335 - 03/28/07 02:06 PM

"mushy fluid-filled wet-bag prisms"

refers to the type of IS prism system that Canon employs in their binoculars. It is accomplished with an oil filled bellows that acts as a compressive pad between the prisms. Therefore, the reference mushy (because it compresses between the prisms) fluid filled (because it is a bag filled with oil) wet-bag prisms (because that mushy wet bag is between the prisms.)

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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BillC
on a new path


Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: EdZ]
      #1511362 - 03/28/07 02:31 PM

>>>You're too much of a gentleman I offer NO respect for the totally clueless remarks in that review.<<<

Too much of a gentleman!? Can I get that on a certificate I can show the cheap bino crowd?

I did, however, misspeak. I said:

"5) I have to--with all due respect--question the motivation for his comments."

I should have said that I question his sources or his interpretation thereof. There is so much Blarney on the list that comes about innocently enough.

Cheers,

Bill

P.S. "Gentleman?" . . . Wait 'til I tell Debbie.

--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines

It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!


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Les
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/22/06
Posts: 859
Loc: Maryland
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P new [Re: EdZ]
      #1511366 - 03/28/07 02:33 PM

...and one can only wonder how the same author would describe an exquisite oil filled APO objective lens.

The terms "mushy" "wet" and "bag" are filled with emotional connotations that go far beyond describing the design. The author was clueless in his review because he was merely quoting yet another "source".

--------------------
Les

Canon 10x42L IS
Oberwerks BT80/45, Helix Hercules mount on Oberwerks Standard Tripod
Swift 8x44ED Ultralite
Questar 50th Anniversary Model, 501 head on Manfrotto 475 tripod
Stellarvue SV90T 90mm Fluorite refractor Bogen 3236/Televue Tele-Pod Head
Questar 7 Astro
Vixen GP-DX on Baader Surveyor Tripod


Edited by Les (03/28/07 02:41 PM)


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Jitter
member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 69
Re: IS Designs- Canon vs Fujinon, Soft vs.Rigid P [Re: EdZ]
      #1511375 - 03/28/07 02:38 PM

Hi Ed,

Does the optical path pass through that oil-filled system ? Just curious.

Jitter


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