EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Just went out for a brief period tonight to see M44 and the moon, but soon got involved in trying something else. I already had 3 binoculrs out when I started looking around a bit. Well, I got stuck on M45.
I brought out a few more so I had selection of low powered hand held binoculars. The target was Burnham 536, the pair right in the center of M45. This pair is an even mag 8 double with a separation of 40 (39 actually) arcseconds. Always easy to see with mounted binoculars, but not so easy with handheld.
With:
hh = handheld
br = braced
mt = mounted
12x50 hh could just barely make it out as elongated, br it looked like I could see both, but never very clear and even at that I had to be very still leaning my binoculars up against a tree.
10x50 hh could still only just barely see some elongation, br still only elongated, not clearly seen
8x56 hh could just see a star at that spot, even br couldn't tell it was more than one star
7x50 hh could barely just see a star at that spot, br was not much better
6.5x21 could not see it at all, even mt.
mounted
I could just barely see the pair clearly separated with 7x50s and with the 8x56 could see it fairly good. In the 10x50s and 12x50s mounted it was seen easily as a wide pair.
I brought out a 15x70. Even at 15x handheld, I still could not see any better than elongated. Braced I could tell it was a double, but it was not seen as well as either the mounted 12x50 or 10x50.
So, up to 15x, there was no binocular I used handheld that provided me a clear visual of this wide pair. Braced even with 15x it was not clear, at 12x it was about the same as 15x, and at 10x braced was just barely seen elongated. Mounted 7x was enough to see it and 8x mounted made it clear.
Binoculars used:
Oberwerk 15x70 LER
Nikon SE 12x50
Oberwerk Mariner 10x60
Pentax PCF WP 10x50
Oberwerk 8x56
William Optic 7x50ED
Pentax Papilio 6.5x21
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (04/02/07 01:17 PM)
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ronharper
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 2065
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Ed, Doggone, I didn't know there was something like that in the middle of the Pleiades, all the times I've looked at them, thanks for the tip. I'll sure try it with my 10x50. Ron
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mooreorless
Just worried
Reged: 07/05/05
Posts: 2248
Loc: Cornpropst Mills,Huntingdon,Pa
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M45 is one of my favorite targets and I almost always handhold binoculars.Didn't know what I was missing.I'm going to star>t using my tripod more.Thanks Edz. :-) Regards,Steve
-------------------- Regards,Steve M
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Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Ed, that's an interesting report. I bit surprising at first reading. Could it be that, with the Moon up, your limiting magnitude was reduced? That would make it more difficult to separate the components. I know for sure I've seen them split at 7x hand-held (sitting down). Can't recall what conditions this was in though (and since I don't keep records...). For sure last night when my NELM was about 4 I could not split this double at 8x.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet
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proud uncle
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 1688
Loc: Central Texas
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Thanks, EdZ. I will try it out with my 10x50s, when I get another clear night -- maybe next week?
-------------------- Kenneth
Nikon 10x50 binocular
Zhumell 10" Dobsonian (f/5)
eyepieces: 32mm (2" WA), 20mm, 12.5mm, 9mm (EWA), 6mm (TMB/BO Planetary), and 2X Barlow
Wratten filters: #21, 25A, 47, 56, 80A, and ND13
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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[Could it be that, with the Moon up, your limiting magnitude was reduced?]
yes of course. LM in that direction was about mag 4.5-5.0. But, they were bright enough (and sky was dark enough) that they were well within the limit of the 7x50 when viewed mounted. I have a number of previous records showing I've reached stars of mag 9.5 with 8x42s under mag 4.7 skies.
[That would make it more difficult to separate the components.]
agreed, it's always more difficult to separate fainter pairs than brighter pairs. But, it would not be made nearly as difficult due to this magnitude as it would be due to magnification and apparent size at low powers.
Empirical data shows it takes about 50% greater apparent (magnified) size to separate faint pairs than is required to separate moderately bright even pairs. For me to see moderate bright even pairs I need apparent size between 150-160 arcseconds at threashold limit. To see these same normal pairs easily, I need an apparent size about 180 arcseconds. Mag 8 is not real faint, so to see mag 8 pairs, I need more power, but still less than 50% more, so maybe 250 arcseconds. We see from this a 40 arcsecond not too faint even double might be seen using 250/40 = 6.25x power. This seems fairly accurate as "I could just barely see the pair clearly separated with (mounted) 7x50s and with the 8x56 could see it fairly good."
Also, empirical data shows about 40%-60% lower resolution viewing objects handheld versus viewing the same objects with a mounted binocular. That would give an indication that it would take about 10x to 12x to see this double handheld. I was getting into that range braced handheld, but it certainly wasn't clear, it was more of just an elongated smear.
[I know for sure I've seen them split at 7x hand-held (sitting down).]
I really couldn't see them spilt at ANY handheld magnification I tried.
references:
Understanding Resolution
Binocular Resolution Handheld versus Mounted
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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I'll try to report back when the next clear night allows a good view of M45 - if it hasn't already sunk in the west by then.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet
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Djembebob
member
Reged: 02/15/07
Posts: 86
Loc: Crestline, California
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Ed, This was one of the reasons I joined these forums in the first place. It is so much more informative when someone describes what they see and what they saw it with. It is also very helpful to know what things look like with the different powers you mentioned and hand held verses mounted. I can’t tell you the number of times I have read one of these posts where some one talks about viewing some object and when I try to spot the same thing I simply assume I can’t find it. Then after several tries over several nights I find that I had been looking at the object all along.
Bob.
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Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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EdZ, could you try the same test with STF747 in Orion, just 10 arc minutes to the south-west of iota. It is a double of mag 4.8 and 5.7 components, separated by 36 arc seconds.
For me this one is split well enough at 7x and 8x (hand-held) that I use it to judge edge sharpness.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet
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BlueRidge
sage
Reged: 01/12/07
Posts: 288
Loc: Blue Ridge Mtns., VA
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Ed,
Coincidentally we were also out last night checking out the stars. It was my mother's 75th birthday and she wanted to look at stars, so I brought along my Celestron Skymasters to NW NJ. We spent several wonderful hours looking at the lovely Pleiades (which thrilled her), M42, M41, Saturn and Venus. I also pointed her towards M35, 36, 37 and 38 (though I'm not sure she could detect them), looked at the constellations, and found Polaris from the pointer stars of the big dipper - all in all a fantastic time!
I'm intrigued by your detailed map of M45 ( and appreciative of the effort that went into it!), and in darker skies of VA will see how many I can identify with the Miyauchi BR141s.
Bill
Blue Ridge Mtns., VA
-------------------- Celestron Skymaster 15 x 70's, Miyauchi BR-141's
Celestron Nexstar 11 GPS, SkyAlign upgrade
Celestron 9.25 XLT OTA, CG-5 Mount
Stellarvue SV90TBV
Denk II Binoviewers/#S2 Power/Filterswitch
21mm and 14mm Denk EPs
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Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Congratulations to your mother, Bill. I think it's absolutely lovely, to have stargazing as a birthday wish at that age. Hope I'll be out under the stars myself on my 75th birthday. Thanks for sharing.
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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[...detailed map of M45 ... in darker skies of VA will see how many I can identify with the Miyauchi BR141s.]
I suspect you should be able to see ALL of them. enjoy.
edz
-------------------- Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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Erik D
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 4066
Loc: Central New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Congratulations to your mother, Bill. I think it's absolutely lovely, to have stargazing as a birthday wish at that age. Hope I'll be out under the stars myself on my 75th birthday. Thanks for sharing.
I certainly hope I'll still be stargazing at age 75 and have some youngesters nearby to share my love of optics and astronomy.... and to pass on the binoculars I enjoy using so much.
Erik D
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DblVision
professor emeritus
Reged: 10/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Louisiana
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Thanks Ed. I take it that this is the "Beta" 536 in the PSA close-up chart. Just saw it through a mounted 10.5X. No way for me handheld. You guys must have ice-water in your veins to be so steady!
-------------------- Neal
G.O. Sig 10.5x70
Swift 761 8X42
60mm Spotter
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Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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We had pretty exceptional viewing conditions tonight, reaching mag 5 even when the almost-Full Moon was already up in the south-east. On the downside we had high winds and poor seeing.
I tried viewing B536 in the Pleiades with my 8x42. This was hand-held and standing upright. It was not well placed, just over 20° above the horizon. The star went in and out of my vision; I needed averted viewing to see it well but that of course killed the resolution.
In my 8.5x44 I steadied my view by bracing myself (resting my elbows on something) and at times I was sure I resolved the two stars. Still this was at the limit of my vision.
STF747 in Orion was well visible (despite only 15° above the horizon) and split in both instruments (hand-held, standing without bracing). It does make a noticeable difference that this one has brighter components (though more uneven and closer than those in B536).
-------------------- Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet
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Amalia
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 5165
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Burnham 536
Just before arriving home, at 21:30, I thought this would be a nice opportunity to try
out my new 8.5x42 binocular under the night sky. The sky was quite bright,
approximately 5.2 mag. I panned around and had also a look at the Pleiades. I
remembered Ed's "Fun in M 45", but I had no sky map and no books with me. All the
same I tried to find out what Ed could have meant. I leaned my elbows on the car's
roof, and quite soon I found: "Here it is, a double star!" I tried to see it again, but now
it was at maximum elongated, and how hard I tried, it became nothing more. That felt
strange.
I drove the last hundred meters home, fed the cats, and checked with my astronomy
software, and yes, there seems to be a double star, but according to Starry Nights it
is only an *apparent* one, not a real one.
Today I have been out observing birds for many hours, and so I felt too lazy to go out again, so
I tried observing out of my kitchen window, but my eyes were not dark adapted at all,
and the lights of our little village were disturbing, NELM was probably less than 5 mag. I
leaned my left elbow at the window frame. I could not lean the right elbow.
Using my 10x32 the double star was difficult to be seen at all.
With the 8.5x42 after a certain time, Burnham 536 was sometimes to be seen as elongated.
I went for the 10x56 and with a little patience, and some trying out I was able to see
the double star *twice* blinking up as two distinct separated stars. Both times the
blinking was short, less than one second.
So this was:
Burnham 536 at around 21:30, altitude around 24°, NELM around 5.2 mag:
Seen once shortly as separated with a 8.5x42 binocular (braced). Several times as elongated.
At around 22:30, altitude around 15°, approx. NELM 5 mag or less, left elbow leaned
at the window frame:
Not easy to be seen as a star with 10x32.
Sometimes elongated with 8.5x42.
Twice blinking as a clearly separated double with 10x56.
Now I had to check if this was really Burnham 536.
Burnham's Celestial Handbook answered this question: Yes, I had it right.
But new questions came up right now:
Burnham describes his Beta 536 as a triple system, with the following brightnesses:
8.5 - 9.5 / - 8 / - 12. Distances: 0.6, 39.1 and 18.1".
This seems somewhat confusing, as three distances would indicate four stars.
So Burnham 536 could be a quadruple system. I tried to check this:
Astronomy application program Starry Nights shows a 8.1 (TYC1800-1961-1) and
a 9.3 mag star (TYC1800-1961-2) in a distance of 0.84".
A 7.55 mag star (TYC1800-1974-1) is distant 38" from the 8.1 star. I guess this (= the
8.1 star and the 7.6 mag star) is what gets called Beta 536 or Burnham 536.
There is no 12 mag star in a 18" radius.
TheSky shows a 8.3 mag star (SAO 76169, GSC 1800:1961, PPM 92858, HD 23479)
and a 40" distant 8.4 mag star (SAO 76167, GSC 1800:1974, PPM 92857, HD 23463).
There is no mentioning of these two stars being a double star. TheSky shows also a
double star called WDS 2755, separation 4", brightness 8.6 mag, distance from
SAO 76167 is 14".
I consulted many internet pages, and this did not really help. Except for Mr. Burnham's
idea, there seems to be no more data indicating that these stars could be a real gravitationally
bound system.
Well, here I gave up... Maybe this is not really that important, after all.
The practical part was more fun, even if it seems that the two easy-to-split stars of
Burnham 536 are not real double stars, but so called "optical double stars" (= two stars
that are only close on the sky, but in fact are separated by a great distance in space.
They are not gravitationally bound to each other). Of course, being members of the
M 45 open cluster, they still travel together.
Amalia
Edited by Amalia (04/07/07 10:39 AM)
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