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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Omni XLT 127
      #1607253 - 05/16/07 01:27 AM

Anyone seen one of these? How does this unit perform compared to an Orion 102 Mak-Cass?

Any observations welcome.

Thank you,

CDS

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Levente
sage


Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 310
Loc: Budapest, Hungary
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #1607358 - 05/16/07 04:20 AM

It should outperform the 102 Mak-Cass due to it's larger diameter. IMHO, the real competitor is the Orion 127 Mak-Cass.

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DeepSpace67
professor emeritus


Reged: 05/13/06
Posts: 552
Loc: Prairie Village, KS, USA
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Levente]
      #1607501 - 05/16/07 08:09 AM

On a value/performance basis, Omni 127, $599, (w/Starbright XLT coatings) does look very close to the Orion 127 Mak ($619). May come down to the perferred scope type (SCT vs. Mak)

--------------------
Matthew

CPC800 with Fastar
Astronomy Technologies 72mm refractor
MallinCam, Watec 3.5" LCD, and Green Laser
William Optics Binoviewer
Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II binoculars
Garrett Gemini Lightweight 11x56 binoculars


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CollinofAlabama
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Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: DeepSpace67]
      #1608792 - 05/16/07 07:23 PM

Not so sure I agree with you, Matthew and Levente. Look just above at the post in this forum, "Why are Maks SO sharp?" Do you think Saturn will look just as nice in the C5 as in a 5" Mak? I doubt it. On the other hand, will it look as good or better than in a 4" Mak? Also, for weight, the 4" Mak at 5 lbs is pretty close to the 6 pound C5. A 5" Mak weighs in at over 8 lbs -- barely portable. Given the heating and cooling characteristics of Maks and SCTs, I'd say a 4" Mak will probably be ready to go to the high powered planetary realm on a cold night about the same time the C5 will -- while the 5" Mak wouldn't be close.

Nope, I'd like to hear from someone comparing the C5 to a 102 (or 105) Mak. I understand the inch for inch aperture argument, but I don't think it applies here. Weight and cooling are more important for these types of scopes. Face it, people that want aperture need a big dob -- period. There's nothing that can compete with that price/performance ratio. An 8" dob will crush all of these, so what? But that's not what these are for. They're portable and light. So let's talk about the portable and light aspects.

In fact, it would be nice to see an honest visual comparison of a 4" Mak, C5, 80mm ED refractor, short tube 4" achromat, and the 130mm ST reflector. When I say "honest" I mean exactly what I referenced above. How does Saturn or M3 look in an 80mm ED clear aperture, 4" Mak, C5, and 130ST newt? Not just how much detail a robot would be able to discern, but which one produces the most pleasing views. Very subjective perhaps, but I don't mind people being subjective in a review, as long as they are as even-handed as the reviewer can be, revealing all relevant predilections. I don't give a wit for the type of scope my economical, excellent portable view comes from, I just want the excellent view for a reasonable price -- on the go.

CDS

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skyward_eyes
Vendor-Woodland Hills/Focus


Reged: 12/12/06
Posts: 3352
Loc: California
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #1609317 - 05/17/07 12:05 AM

A friend of mine owns the older Celestron 5" SCT. It is a nice portable OTA. And on a EQ-3 mount it should be very stable set up. The optics are pretty sharp for a little scope. I agree with the other guys that the Orion 127 Mak would give a good fight against it. Hope this helps.

Kevin

--------------------
Kevin LeGore
kevin@telescopes.net
Woodland Hills Camera & Telescopes
www.telescopes.net

Focus on Astronomy Outreach Project
www.focusonastronomy.org
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k.legore@focusonastronomy.org


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JMP
sage


Reged: 10/31/05
Posts: 220
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: skyward_eyes]
      #1610133 - 05/17/07 01:47 PM

I did a side by side test of a Meade ETX105 and my own C5. I found the view of Saturn very similar. Both scopes handled 200x comfortably, both scopes showed the Cassini division right around the planet (this was a couple years back when the rings were more open). The C5, being larger, showed the moons more easily. The 105 mak had more contrast. When I looked closely I could see that Cassini was thinner, better resolved, in the C5.

The views were surprisingly similar, the C5 had a slight edge on resolution, the 105 had a wider edge on contrast. The reviews I've read comparing Orion maks to ETX maks give the edge to meade. I have not compared the Orion mak to my C5.

Jeff Phillips


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/24/03
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Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: JMP]
      #1611645 - 05/18/07 10:45 AM

Jeff,

THANKS! This is exactly the type of evaluation I was hoping for. However, I wonder which view you found the most pleasing? You said the 105 had more contrast. Did your eye prefer the view? Also, did you check out any other targets and compare them. How about an open cluster, globular, planetary nebula or nebulous star cloud? It would be nice to hear about that.

Also, anyone else comparing the C5 with an Orion 102 Mak, an 80mm ED or APO refractor, 130ST reflector and 4"/4.7" short tube achro? Again, I'm looking for subjective evaluation -- which scope produces the best image, and feel free to change the choice as the target changes. Saturn is one important target, but so is the Orion Nebula, so is M3, so is etc, etc, etc (a la, Yul Brenner)

Thank you, Jeff. Feel free to add anything you'd like. Ye others, chime in at will. I'm listening (a la Kelsey Grammer)

CDS

--------------------
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JMP
sage


Reged: 10/31/05
Posts: 220
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #1613735 - 05/19/07 04:22 PM

Hi, Collin;

As to which I found more pleasing, the ETX105 or the C5, when looking at Saturn at 200x, I might give a slight edge to the ETX. However if someone offered to trade me straight up, ETX105 for my C5, I'd say no. Why? I like the wider field of view and the better deep space views of the C5. Some of my friends with larger scopes have been surprised how nice the views are with the C5.

I wrote an article comparing some different scopes, see
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=640
"What can you see for $500, four telescopes compared"

The are some other comparison reviews on cloudy nights, but I like the C5 just for the reasons you are interested in; it's a great combination of power and portability. While you're thinking about it, consider the 6 inch version. It's only 699.

Jeff


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ScottAz
Fleet Navigator


Reged: 02/06/05
Posts: 1243
Loc: Kenosha, Wisconsin
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: JMP]
      #1688542 - 06/28/07 04:36 PM

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the link to your 4-way comparison. I found it very helpful!

--------------------
Scott Azmus
18" Obsession
NexStar 11 GPS
Celestron 8SE
AT80ED (f/7)


Many Views Yield Truth


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stevew
Now I've done it


Reged: 03/03/06
Posts: 3487
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: ScottAz]
      #1689285 - 06/29/07 12:24 AM

I have a C5 and love it. Just as portable as an 80 mm refractor, but with much more light gathering power.
If it's your only scope I would say go for the C6.
I use my C5 as a grab and go [ 15 minute views]
So portability is the reason I chose it over the C6.
Saturn in the C5 is quite nice. It shows the Cassini division, the globe shadow on the rings, and cloud bands on the globe.
They are very easy to collimate, so it always provides sharp views. My 4 inch Televue has much more contrast, but also weighs three times as much as the C5. The C5 would have a larger field of view than a Mak, so the C5 works just fine on an Alt Az mount.
I have never owned a Mak, so I can't really comment on it.
You really have to decide what you want.
Will the scope be your only scope or do you want it as a quick peak or travel scope?

Steve

--------------------
More telescopes than I deserve....


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Larry F
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/24/04
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Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: stevew]
      #1698497 - 07/03/07 10:12 PM

Having both the C5 and the 127 Mak, I think the Mak has a slight bit more contrast but definitely takes longer to cool. I've had wonderful views with both scopes.

The way I mount them, it's much faster to set up the Mak (I use a Giro 2 with Tech 2000 driver) than the fork-mounted C5 which uses a (custom) bolt-on dec motor and needs an old Orion Accutrack to run off 12 volts. It's also easier to balance it with the binoviewer than the C5, which uses counterweights that clip onto the front of the corrector cell (and make it impossible to use the dew shield). But the C5 was my first "real" scope and it's an elegant little instrument. You would most certainly not be unhappy with it unless you really want aperture and wide fields.

--------------------
More stuff than I need
Not as much as I want
(Main scope: CPC800/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus)
Mason & Hamlin BB 2140 mm (grand piano)
Westchester Amateur Astronomers
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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Larry F]
      #1701544 - 07/05/07 07:47 PM

Thanks everyone for posting. Really, having looked over the specs of both over carefully, I think I'll wait till I have $300+ to blow! The best TFOV is with the 4" Mak at 1.2 degrees. The C5 can't even muster that. That's a big minus for me, being used to the massive TFOV of my AT80ED. Oh well.

Thanks for everyone's input. I appreciate it.

CDS

--------------------
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Patrick
Postmaster


Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 10382
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #1701919 - 07/06/07 12:28 AM

Quote:

The best TFOV is with the 4" Mak at 1.2 degrees. The C5 can't even muster that. That's a big minus for me, being used to the massive TFOV of my AT80ED. Oh well.




One of the pluses for the C5 is that it will accept a 2" visual back and 2" diagonal. That means you can use 2" eyepieces with the C5 and get a much larger FOV than with just 1.25" eyepeice. I suspect you will be able to get upwards of 1.7 degrees TFOV with the 2" eyepiece. With my C6 and 2" eyepieces I can get around 1.5 degrees TFOV.

I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but I calculate that a C5 should be able to get around 1.2 degrees TVOV even with 1.25" eyepieces (30mm 52 degree AFOV eyepiece for instance). One thing to keep in mind is that the C5 has a similar but slightly shorter focal length than the 4" Mak (1270 vs 1300) so the TFOV should be about the same with any given eyepiece (but slightly bigger in the C5).

Regards,

Patrick

--------------------

CPC1100;AT66ED;Denk S1;
EdgeHD C8; C6 SCT
6"f/4.8MN ES Comet Hunter
10"f/6 Newt
Vixen GP2;CGEM Mount
Canon 60D;Lodestar Guider


The Lord sits enthroned above the circle of the earth...He stretched out the heavens like a canopy.


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Larry F
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/24/04
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Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Patrick]
      #1702189 - 07/06/07 07:41 AM

I thought the FOV of the C5 (and similarly the 127 Mak) was limited by the size of the baffle tube and the diameter of the hole in the back of the scope, so a good bit of the advantage of a 2" light path is lost because of vignetting. That being said, I mounted a 2" back on my 127 Mak because it's much more secure with the binoviewer, and would do the same with the C5 if I was using it more.

But it sounds like wide fields are what you are after, in which case it's the wrong scope for you.

--------------------
More stuff than I need
Not as much as I want
(Main scope: CPC800/Mallincam Color Hyper Plus)
Mason & Hamlin BB 2140 mm (grand piano)
Westchester Amateur Astronomers
My Gallery


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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/24/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Lubbock, Texas, USA
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Patrick]
      #1702405 - 07/06/07 10:39 AM

Patrick raises an interesting possibility, and anyone with more optical details of the C5 is more than welcome. I based my figures on this site here ...

http://www.pietro.org/Astro_C5/c5_nexstar.htm

... which bills itself as the unofficial home of the Celestron 5" SCT, and claims the actual focal length (obviously sometimes less, sometimes more depending on the eyepiece's focal plane, but on average) to be 1347mm. Using an aperture of 125mm (probably a small amount lost to the corrector plate's aspherical nature and the lack of a larger primary, like Meade has), one finds the focal length to be closer to F/10.7. Now, I already figure the 4" Mak would have a focal length closer to F/13.5 (about 97mm for the primary, using the original 1300mm focal length). This gives the Mak a slight advantage for TFOV over the C5, though not by much.

Of course, the vignetting of a 2" eyepiece is the big issue, would a 32mm 2" eyepiece vignette? Obviously a 40mm probably would, but would a 32mm? How about a 30mm? This is the real issue. If one has to go down to a 26mm 2" eyepiece, is that really gonna beat an ole 1.25" TV 32mm Plossl for TFOV?

Anyone who has studied this issue (or just has the time and is an optics nut like us!) please chime in.

Thank you,

CDS

--------------------
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)


Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #1702487 - 07/06/07 11:12 AM

The Omni XLT 150mm reflector would be a better choice for wider fields.
That being said, how wide a field of view can a C5 muster?
The baffle tube opening is about 27mm maximum.
So, using the formula for true field,
TF=57.3 x (field stop/focal length)

TF=57.3(27/1347) = 1.15 degrees.

But what is the edge-of-field illumination? Several sources say about 70% at the back edge of the scope.

But a diagonal always extends the baffle length and lengthens the focal length of the scope (due to a more forward mirror placement), while reducing edge illumination. So the use of a standard diagonal will reduce edge illumination slightly below 70%. Photographically, the instument has to be used without a diagonal and the fully illuminated field will not be as large as 27mm.
Many people are insensitive to vignetting, visually, until the illumination drops below about 60%. This might allow the field of view to be pushed up to about 1.2 degrees, but at some point vignetting will start to occur.
I don't recommend a 2" diagonal on this scope because vignetting will more likely be visible, AND because the extra length of the diagonal will make the focal length even longer, making lower powers even harder to obtain.
IMO, the venerable 32mm Plossl is the best eyepiece for low power on this scope, though the supplied 1-1/4" diagonal should be upgraded. A good dielectric will help the images significantly.
But, if wide field is desired, the 6" f/5 gets to over 2 degrees of true field with the same 32mm Plossl. And, the 6" of aperture will be better for deep sky. Add to that the fact the scope is $200 cheaper(giving you a budget for drive motors), and it's a no-brainer.

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member



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CollinofAlabama
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Starman1]
      #1703616 - 07/07/07 12:25 AM

Don,

I appreciate your observations. I knew someone optically brilliant like you'd come along and give a good answer. ¡Muchas gracias!

However, there's un problema. F/5 is difficult on the ole eyepieces, especially in a Newtonian. On top of this, the collimation sweet spots drops from a 4.752mm diameter point to a 2.75mm diameter pinpoint of light. A 130mm Newtonian at F/6 would be only 30mm longer than the F/5 150mm, but would be a lot easier to use with an eyepiece collection and would need less fussing regarding collimation. Also, coma error would be reduced a lot with F/6, don't you think?

Just the same, I appreciate your advice and will keep the F/5 newtonian the market produces at prodigious rates in mind. I know that Jon Isaacs swears by his F/5 130mm newtonian for portability, but I also know he uses his 80mm ED refractor more. Something about the contrast in a refractor or Mak that no other telescope design seems to be able to match, at least not in smaller apertures.

Oh well, these are indeed interesting daydreams.

Thanks again, everyone,

CDS

--------------------
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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)


Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #1703708 - 07/07/07 01:56 AM

F/5 isn't too difficult for Plossls, and, while there is coma, it isn't too severe. I owned a 6" f/5 for a few years in the '80s/'90s and I loved the wide fields with magnification that it provided.
The fact the complete scope is $399, less than an equivalent cost in 1986, and it's really a good deal.
Think about this: a 7.5mm eyepiece yields 100X, and if it's a Plossl (using a 15mm and Barlow to avoid the necessary corneal implant of the eyepiece ), the true field of view is going to be around half a degree--the size of the Full Moon.
Not bad for an inexpensive scope used with inexpensive eyepieces.
And the short tube is OK for the CG4 mount--a longer f/ratio and longer, heavier, tube (f/6, for example) might be too unstable in even a slight breeze.

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member



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Patrick
Postmaster


Reged: 05/16/03
Posts: 10382
Loc: Franklin, Ohio
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Starman1]
      #1705902 - 07/08/07 05:26 PM

Don and others,

I know we've had this conversation before, so bear with me. On my C6 SCT, I'm using a 2" visual back, 2" diagonal and 38mm 2" eyepiece. According to the TFOV formula above I should only be able to get about a 1 degree TFOV (TFOV=(barrel dia*57.3)/scope focal length). However, I've measured the TFOV using the drift method and am able to get about 1.5 degrees (probably less than the theoretical 1.7 degrees because of a slightly longer focal length due to the longer diagonal). Some have said that the illumination at the edges drops off, but I'm not seeing it. To me it looks like perfectly usable FOV (particularly valuable for locating objects while searching..and also nice for framing large objects). I'm at a loss in explaining why this is possible based on the formulas, so perhaps someone can help me understand the optical reasons for what I'm seeing at the eyepiece.

Nevertheless, from experience with the C6, I feel pretty confident that adding a 2" rear end to the the C5 will allow for wider fields of view than are possible with a 1.25" setup and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as unacceptable. At the very least, a 2" setup will allow for a more sturdy diagonal when using larger eyepieces...and who knows, you might find that using a 2" eyepiece works just fine for you.

Regards,

Patrick

--------------------

CPC1100;AT66ED;Denk S1;
EdgeHD C8; C6 SCT
6"f/4.8MN ES Comet Hunter
10"f/6 Newt
Vixen GP2;CGEM Mount
Canon 60D;Lodestar Guider


The Lord sits enthroned above the circle of the earth...He stretched out the heavens like a canopy.


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)


Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Omni XLT 127 new [Re: Patrick]
      #1706021 - 07/08/07 06:25 PM

Patrick,
The illumination at the edge of the field, especially when viewing a dark sky, isn't real critical.
No one can easily see a 30% drop off, and most peple can easily tolerate a 40% drop off (0.4 magnitudes). Some people can even tolerate a 50% drop off at the edge of the field.
In your case, your 38mm eyepiece has a 46mm field stop, so the illumination at the edge of the field, given a 27mm opening in the visual back, is below 50%. That's no big deal--it just means that illumination drop off isn't something you're particularly sensitive to (neither am I, by the way--a 60% illumination seems fine). Though you might notice it in daytime use, you obviously aren't bothered by it at night.
Here's an article on vignetting:
http://www.mailbag.com/users/ragreiner/vignetting.html
Remember, in this case a 50mm baffle is described, not a 27mm baffle.
I agree the 2" visual back is stronger, if somewhat longer. It's a good match for even a 1-1/4" diagonal.
At which point, I can tell you of my experiences:
In my 8" SCT, with a 38mm baffle, an eyepiece of 46mm field stop did not produce visible vignetting. When a focal reducer was used (the same illumination reduced to a 24mm field), I was able to successfully use an eyepiece with a 31mm field stop, but an eyepiece with a 38mm field stop showed visible vignetting. As I calculate it, I was just able to see vignetting when the light drop off exceeded about 0.6 magnitude.
On my 5" Mak, with a baffle of 27mm, an eyepiece with a 29mm field stop produces noticeable vignetting. Why? Because the secondary size chosen didn't produce the same edge illumination as the secondary in my SCT. In that scope, I feel confident in telling people to stick with 1-1/4" eyepieces (though some users have reported using 2" eyepieces with 46mm field stops--I have no clue how this doesn't produce visible vignetting for them).
On the C5, I would not be SURE that a 2" eyepiece cannot be used, but I would not steer someone to this scope if they really had a desire for a field of view larger than 1.2 degrees.
[Especially when a 6" with a much wider field (over 2 degrees with 1-1/4" eyepieces) is available for LESS.] Also because neither you nor I can be sure the owner won't be sensitive to vignetting.
Given the wide range of accessories available and desirable for this range of scope, I would argue a 2" visual back/diagonal/eyepiece is pretty far down the list of expenditures.
And with the 6", it isn't even on the list.

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member



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