Mozhoven
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 909
Loc: Middletown, CT
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Mike,
Thanks for the detailed response. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for. I like my pans, but they are prone to black-out if your eye's aren't "just right". Do the 21's do the same?
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Jeremy Davis
Sculptor & Certified Binoviewer Addict (CBA) (Ironically with no Binoviewer  )
Orion XT12i - 12" f/4.9 "Alfred E. Newtonian"
Wyorock Custom Crayford
12x60 Oberwerk Binos
www.jdavisgallery.com
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b1gred
Enginerd
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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The 21s (Denk) have a very good 'tolerance' for eye position, one of my favorite attributes of those EPs.
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"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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Mike Harvey
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 948
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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Quote:
Mike,
Thanks for the detailed response. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for. I like my pans, but they are prone to black-out if your eye's aren't "just right". Do the 21's do the same?
The CAN, but are less prone than the Pans (at least for me).
I eliminated the possibility by having some custom spacers made that replace the 'standard" spacers that the BatWing eyeguards are attached to. These place my eyes at precisely the proper point.
Talk to Russ, at Denkmeier, he may be offering these as an option.
Mike
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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 2734
Loc: The Garden State & Ocean State
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Hi Mike,
I have chiroptophobia, the denk 21s are out of the question.
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SteveC
TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110
SolarMax 40
Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-4 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod
TEC EP Turret, AP Maxbright, Denk P/S Diagonal, TMB Supermonos, ZAO IIs, Zeiss Monocentrics, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA, 5mm Pentax XO, and 2.9mm, 4.4mm, 5.9mm, 7.4mm Couture (ball)
Edited by SteveC (07/20/07 04:04 PM)
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b1gred
Enginerd
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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Ooohh the "batwings".. ok I get it.
But it doesn't apply...
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"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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warf
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 10/25/04
Posts: 817
Loc: Wisconsin
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I chose the D21s over the Pans due to comfort... I love the batwings as much as I love buffalo wings (no phobias here). I think the batwings help align my eyes over the eyepieces in the binoviewer resulting in more comfort. I also think that the difference I see from them visually is simply the batwings blocking out stray light. I liked both sets of eyepieces alot. If I already owned a pair of either Denks or Pans I don't think I would be motivated to switch to other. I think owners of either Denks or Pans are truly blessed to have such exceptional astronomical equipment.
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Marsh
Celestron NS 11 GPS, Denk Standard Binoviewer, Pair of Denk 21 EP, Denk PowerSwitch Diagonal, Denk PST Corrector, Coronado PST Double Stacked, WO ZS80 Anniversary,Celestron 15x70 Binoculars
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b1gred
Enginerd
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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In previous posts, I had commented that I vacillate between my D-21s and 24Pans.
Last Saturday night, I decided to just use the D21s and leave the Pans in the box. Having used the D21s all evening, I'm going to switch my preference to the Denks. There IS a difference, subtle but some. However the contrast of the Denks and the comfort of using them has won me over.
I'm not selling my Pans - just yet, but they are now my #1 preference for binoviewing. (OK, I MIGHT sell the Pans to get a pair of D-14s...)
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"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
I think owners of either Denks or Pans are truly blessed to have such exceptional astronomical equipment.
Well stated! 
Quote:
OK, I MIGHT sell the Pans to get a pair of D-14s...
Well THAT opens up the second can of worms in a single thread! What are the primary contenders for the ~14mm EP slot? Before the Denk 14's became available, many of us had already leaped (lept?) onto other alternatives.
In my case it was a pair of 14mm Pentax XLs- nearly identical user-specs to the Denks. Then of course there are the XWs... and Radians. Bordering 14mm on the longish side are the 15mm Pans & Axioms, and on the *shorter* side are 13mm Widescans, Stratus/Hyperions, and of course Nagler T6s.
Not to mention a plethora of Ploessls & Ultimas of various rank & stripe... so maybe lets not! There are so many "wifefield" contenders... and seems to me there WAS a CN poll taken not too long ago that asked a very similar question- just not FL specific. The results of that, if someone has a link, could be interesting.
Yet i'd be fascinated to learn the *WHYs* of these choices, particularly from those who've done at least *some* of the A-B work in order to settle on the ~14mm pair that gave *them* the best views! And while i've thoroughly enjoyed my Pentax XLs, i'd have to exclude myself from answering the question... 'cuz i ain't done ANY comparisons in this regard. But i'd be willing to bet that there's somebody (like Randy  ) who's not yet committed to such a purchase just yet, and would benefit from such input!
All the while, keeping in mind Warf's statement... 'cuz its certainly true!
mike b
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"I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
 Pacheco State Park
 Fremont Peak
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arowana
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 2905
Loc: Pleasant View,Tennessee
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Still aint giv'in up my 24 Pan's.
Nope, No way, Not a Chance. 
CS's
Joey
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CPC 1100
Earthwin Binoviewer with Dielectric P/F Switch
Matched Pair of 24 Pan's
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b1gred
Enginerd
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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And isn't it great to live where we have a choice?
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"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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BlueRidge
sage
Reged: 01/12/07
Posts: 288
Loc: Blue Ridge Mtns., VA
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When I went to NEAF to pick up my Denk II's and Power Switch, I also purchased the D21's. Almost as an afterthought, and (at least partially) based on Randy's recommendation, I ended up purchasing the D14's as well.
Although I have no other EPs to compare it too (except the 21s), let me state for the record that the 14's are outstanding eyepieces. The views of the Hercules Cluster and Swan Nebula - WOW! FOV, clarity and contrast are wonderful. They are an ideal set-up for many of the DSOs with the combo binoviewers and C11 scope! They'll be getting a lot of use in the coming years.
Oh, and I've come to love the vaults and storage case as well.
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Celestron Skymaster 15 x 70's, Miyauchi BR-141's
Celestron Nexstar 11 GPS, SkyAlign upgrade
Celestron 9.25 XLT OTA, CG-5 Mount
Stellarvue SV90TBV
Denk II Binoviewers/#S2 Power/Filterswitch
21mm and 14mm Denk EPs
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b1gred
Enginerd
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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 Glad you like them. I'm VERY happy with my 21s and will be getting 14s when I can...
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"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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Snaproll
Postmaster
Reged: 02/20/04
Posts: 5095
Loc: Green Bay
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Thanks all. I've been curious about this too. I have the D21's and have heard such good things about the Pans I was tempted to buy a pair for comparison.
My particular favorite though are the D14's with the PxS R1 diagonal. They are incredible planetary EPs and I use them for small DSO's as well.
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Jim W Astro images
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ndelo
professor emeritus
Reged: 08/02/06
Posts: 619
Loc: Light-polluted New Jersey
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I'm giving up my Denks for 24mm Siebert Ultras!
Actually I just got a pair of Denk 24s which I have been pining for since I started BV'ing. But, while the Pans are certainly great EPs, I need eye relief!!! I find I can't fully use the Pans with my eyeglasses on, and this is disappointing to say the least.
I intended to sell off my Sieberts once I bought the Pans, but after about a week, I realize how much I love, and rely on, the 20mm ER of the Sieberts.
The Denks have slightly better contrast, slightly better edge sharpness, and less glare (with the 20mm ER of the Sieberts, the lenses tend to gulp in any nearby light source -- basically, my eye sockets aren't close enough to them to act as light shields! -- and with glasses on I cannot use winged eye guards). Additionally, the Sieberts show some false color at the edge on very bright objects, like the moon.
But all of this aside, the ER on the Seiberts is very nice for an eyeglass wearer like me. The FOV is large enough that I feel like I'm falling through a wide porthole into the eyepiece. No need to press up against the EPs to enjoy the whole view.
Overall the Sieberts are very sharp and bright. They are awesome BV EPs for the money (unfortunately, they perform poorly as a single EP in fast newts). I can certainly see as much detail on Jupiter and Saturn as I can do the Pans, and I find M13 equally bright and resolved in both.
I'd love to be able to use my brandy new Pans, but alas . . . I see A-mart in their future . . .
Anyone who is looking for a great pair of wide-angle BV EPs, and needs ER, or lacks the funds for Pans should take a serious look at the Sieberts. The price for a pair is about the same as one 24mm Pan. Plus, they are very light weight, and don't need to be as heavily counter-weighted.
Anyway . . . just my $.02.
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Mozhoven
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 909
Loc: Middletown, CT
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Quote:
Quote:
As the title suggests, I'm looking to see just how many people here gave up their 24mm Panoptics for 21mm Denkmeiers
I did.
After several nights of side-by-side tests, I gave the (very slight)edge to the Denks and sold the 24's.
For me it was more a matter of personal observing comfort and "eye fit" than any dramatic optical performance difference.
The Denks just "feel right"...the eye relief is perfect... and the batwing eyeguards really work! 
I have since replaced my 13mm Naglers with the D-14's for much the same reasons.
YOUR physiology, however, may lead to a different conclusion.
Mike Harvey
Mike, (and others),
I've noticed, especially on nights where the dew point is close, that my proximity to the eyelens of the pans prove problematic. The eyelens starts to feel like a sauna after a few minutes and then, of course, it starts to "fog" up a bit. I know I could probably solve this with eyepiece heaters, but it raises a question for me.
The Pans have 16mm of ER while the Denk 21's advertise 20mm of eye relief. So, does that extra 4mm help with this problem?
P.S. I've traded-up my 8" newt for a 12".......
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Jeremy Davis
Sculptor & Certified Binoviewer Addict (CBA) (Ironically with no Binoviewer )
Orion XT12i - 12" f/4.9 "Alfred E. Newtonian"
Wyorock Custom Crayford
12x60 Oberwerk Binos
www.jdavisgallery.com
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Mike Harvey
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 948
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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Quote:
Mike, (and others),
I've noticed, especially on nights where the dew point is close, that my proximity to the eyelens of the pans prove problematic. The eyelens starts to feel like a sauna after a few minutes and then, of course, it starts to "fog" up a bit. I know I could probably solve this with eyepiece heaters, but it raises a question for me.
The Pans have 16mm of ER while the Denk 21's advertise 20mm of eye relief. So, does that extra 4mm help with this problem?
P.S. I've traded-up my 8" newt for a 12".......
Yes, it does make a difference, especially if you get the
'extentions' for the end of the Denk barrels.
But - I find that, if I use the "batwings", I can still have the problem at times. They tend to do the same thing the eyecups on the 24's do and keep all the moisture from your eye inside the barrel.
When THIS happens I just turn on the eyepiece heaters!
Mike
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Mozhoven
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 909
Loc: Middletown, CT
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Mike, Thanks for the info.
Ok, another question:
*I know that the Pan 24 has a bigger exit pupil, thereby transmitting more light to the pupil than the Denk21. \
*I know that the Denk21's higher mag will give more contrasty views of objects than the Pan 24.
My questions are:
~Does the higher mag make up for the smaller EP?
Can anyone confirm this one way or the other?
(Keep in mind that I know have a 12" newt...)
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Jeremy Davis
Sculptor & Certified Binoviewer Addict (CBA) (Ironically with no Binoviewer )
Orion XT12i - 12" f/4.9 "Alfred E. Newtonian"
Wyorock Custom Crayford
12x60 Oberwerk Binos
www.jdavisgallery.com
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Houdini
professor emeritus
Reged: 07/13/07
Posts: 631
Loc: Europe
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Both are expensive and excellent eyepieces with similar focal length and performance. All the rest is up to personal preference and nobody on the forum will be able to make the choice for you.
With all this equipment talk it's so easy to forget that the observer's skills and the observing site quality are FAR more important than the minute differences between two topnotch eyepieces.
Robert
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16" f/4.9, 25" f/5 Dobson, 1100 mm f/3.6
Mirror Edge Support Calculator, Telescope Limiting Magnitude Calculator
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Mozhoven
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 909
Loc: Middletown, CT
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"Both are expensive and excellent eyepieces with similar focal length and performance. All the rest is up to personal preference and nobody on the forum will be able to make the choice for you."
Robert,
I agree completely. If they weren't both excellent EP's, this thread wouldn't even exist.
Please don't misunderstand my questions: I'm not looking for someone to tell me what to buy (I already own 24mm Pans) rather, I'm trying to understand the subtle differences between, what I consider, the two top contenders in this focal range.
Obviously people have their own preferences based on physiology, preference, brand-loyalty, etc, etc. My questions are aimed more at the specifics of Light Transmission, Eye Relief, and Contrast. These are quantifiable characteristics that should override any personal preference.
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Jeremy Davis
Sculptor & Certified Binoviewer Addict (CBA) (Ironically with no Binoviewer )
Orion XT12i - 12" f/4.9 "Alfred E. Newtonian"
Wyorock Custom Crayford
12x60 Oberwerk Binos
www.jdavisgallery.com
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Mike Harvey
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 948
Loc: Orlando, FL.
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Y'know, Jeremy... you'll probably never know until you try them for yourself. Too much of this is subjective.
If you can't find someone with a pair at a nearby observing site or star paarty, why not see if you can order a pair of the 21's with return priveleges?
Mike
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