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ccs_hello
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new CMOS sensors in DSLRs
      #1835331 - 09/11/07 07:48 PM

I would like to mention that the new Sony designed and manufactured APS-C 12 Mpixel CMOS sensor IMX021, as used in Sony A700 (no Live View) and Nikon D300 (Live View) though all pre-production models, are getting decent review on its imager's low light performance.

Sample pics (same sensor, shot thru A700)
http://www.quesabesde.com/noticias/sony-a700-fotos-prueba,1_3619


(ISO1600/3200/6400 pics are near the very end of the page.
Hope they are still there, pixel peeking is fun.)

It may be Canon CMOS imager' (e.g., 40D) strong competitor.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1851143 - 09/19/07 07:32 AM

Another set of examples.
http://photoclubalpha.com/2007/09/08/sony-alpha-700-high-iso-pictures/
Seems to be of high potential.

ccs_hello

P.S. there are 3 theories about why Nikon D300 can do 14-bit A/D. I offered mine (95% likelihood, IMO, of course) in that megasite.


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Qkslvr
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1851243 - 09/19/07 09:01 AM

ccs, Can you provide a link to that discussion?

Thanks.

--------------------
Mike
Onyx 80ED/N8/CG-5/40D


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs new [Re: Qkslvr]
      #1852812 - 09/19/07 10:06 PM

Sorry can be very boring to some......

Mike,


Here is my summary on that why this Sony IMX021 (12-bit built-in A/D) can do/is possible doing 14-bit A/D. It's an interesting detective story:

In layman's term:

Theory 1:
Sony used the IMX021 as the basis and then made a Nikon custom for Nikon D300 DSLR; in another view, the Nikon IMX021-like imager is a full featured one, while IMX021 (as used in A700 and available for commercial sale) is a crippled 12-bit version...


Theory 2:
Sony still provides Nikon with the IMX021 but it internally has Nikon custom-feature, not be disclosed to other DSLR mfgs, includign Sony camera division. I.e., trade-secret approach on selective enable/diosable features.

Theory 3:
{It is known that IMX021's internal A/D is a column-parallel A/D design, using one D/A generated ramp as the flash-comparator reference to do column-wide flash A/D.]
Thus there is a way to use an external 14-bit D/A converter (instead the internal 12-bit D/A), via external loop-thru (a.k.a. side door), the 14-bit one can patch in to replace the internal version.
I.e., external circuitry partially modifying SONY imager behavior.

Theory 4:
Although IMX021 has internal 12-bit A/D, it also has the traditional one-channel (or more) analog output method. Nikon can stop IMX021's internal A/D section, but just
uses N's own/separate external 14-bit A/D IC to process imager's output, just like the traditional CCD's processing method.

=========================================

My take on 4 theories:

Theory 1:
Conceptually makes sense, but the smoking gun:
it is highly unlikely, since bond pad and (IC chip) dice pattern is exactly the same the the IMX021.

Theory 2:
Secret microcode or undocumented features to cripple:
Conceptually possible but realistically, this approach can be reverse-engineered in no time. IMO, high sum of investment money shall not be protected by boys or girls scout's honor code .

Theory 3:
Use external 14-bit D/A to replace internal 12-bit D/A function.
This is feasible, but is a little bit complicated, since it is highly involved on in depth co-working in between two firms:
- need to make sure internal comparators are workable down to 14-bit precision
- need to find a way to alter the timing sequencer
- need to "enable" (if there is such a whole column of pre-constructed/pre-allocated 14-bit counters) 2 extra bits of the column counters.
In my view, this "side-door" approach is far too complicated and requires detailed involvement. It will also have many service/support issues. Given that "N" is also working on its own JFET/CMOS sensors, "S" wouldn't go that far to be that cozzy.

Theory 4:
Just tell the imager not to use its own internal A/D, but simply passes the analog sensor signal out as-is and let the external circuit to take it from there.

Smoking guns:

4a) (indirectly) in ISSCC 2006 conference, Sony has 2 papers on column-parallel CMOS sensor technology, though more on the smaller size lab version of the IMX017CQE (12-bit internal column-parallel A/D converter) CMOS image sensor. In the table describing its features, it has one line: base feature #4: one-channel (analog) output
{yeah! Not forgetting its CCD root }

4b) (indirectly) in D300 and D3 (D3 has 14-bit RAW) main circuit board pictures, there are many common components, one smaller IC (same part number) looks like an AFE (analog front end, a fancy name which has A/D inside). Note that D3's fullframe sensor is Nikon in-house developed and fab sensor with 12-channel analog output. This means in main circuit board, there must be an AFE IC. Since the boards are so similar, it makes sense why not just use the AFE IC to perform external A/D function anyway.


I managed to convince myself. That's good enough.

===================================================

Why I started to mention some APS-C CMOS activities:

1. IMX021 is a commercial available IC, sampling nwo and unit price is $400
2. From few recent pictures, its sensitivity seems to be topping Canon's by one stop or two. I.e., Sony seems to have a way to control noise (in room temperature)
3. IMX021, in native 12-bit digital output, is a digital only IC. This makes camera-head type of imager design extremely easy, just like the recent simple LPI/SSI/Q-Guide cameras etc.
4. There may be new sensors being introduced, e.g.1, new influx of funding on Sony sensor R&D and e.g.2, ISSC 2006 Sony has a paper mentioning its own back-illuminated CMOS sensor (not seen commercially yet) ...
It's going to be a new era.

Hmm... I'd better start my part 11 article on the CCD Intro topic and devote it to some of the CMOS technologies ...

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1853405 - 09/20/07 07:07 AM

BTW, I should mention that CMOS sensor consumes less power so it runs cooler. This gives the Live PreView a boost. For astro application, remember the x10 focus assist???

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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Qkslvr
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1853692 - 09/20/07 10:30 AM

Having a Semi background, I'll give you a couple things to add to your hypothesis.

Masks are expensive, Big wafer masks are really expensive. Unless you're going to make a lot of chips or charge a lot for them, you don't buy new masks.

It is easy to add functionality, and either disable it or use performance binning to select high performing chips vs lesser ones (12 vs 14 b???). If they use a laser to trim thin film resister for the a2d, it would be easy to use the laser to enable 12 vs 14 bits.

An external a2d would work, but it adds component cost (probably), and you're left routing low level signals off chip (less than ideal).

If someone can get each chip under a microscope, you can probaly figure out which path they took.

--------------------
Mike
Onyx 80ED/N8/CG-5/40D


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nytecam
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1860404 - 09/23/07 03:02 PM

Thanks CCS-H and Mike - great read and love this detective work - keep 'um coming

--------------------
Nytecam 51N 0.1W
Meade 30cm LX200+C8+Ha+CaK PSTs+spectrographs
SX M9+Lodestar-C CCDs/Canon 300D DSLR
My Meade astrograph-colour deepsky
My supernova discovery
My dome build/spectroscopes/DSO images/Lodestar colour images & videos




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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs A700 / D300 new [Re: nytecam]
      #1860832 - 09/23/07 06:56 PM

There is very little D300 ISO3200 or 6400 Raw pics leaked out due to N gag order .

Some have received Sony A700.
http://www.pbase.com/richard_b/image/86064732 is an example of RAW-converted ISO 3200.

ISO3200
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA700/FULLRES/AA700LL3207.HTM

ISO6400
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA700/FULLRES/AA700LL6407.HTM


These guys ought to bring the DSLRs under the dark sky ...

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs A700 / D300 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1868443 - 09/26/07 10:18 PM

Another set of high ISO pictures:
http://nikond300.dpnotes.com/full-sized-high-iso-nikon-d300-samples/


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs A700 / D300 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1875226 - 09/30/07 01:49 AM

re: Nikon D300 14-bit detective story

Nikon Press Release also provided the hint:

Quote:



Enhanced Images with EXPEED

The EXPEED image processing system is at the heart of the D300’s ability to capture and process high definition image data so quickly. The EXPEED system includes both hardware and years of Nikon image processing expertise. The D300 EXPEED system features 14-bit analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion with 16-bit image processing, both of which contribute to delivering results with Nikon’s signature ‘look and feel’ of rich accurate colours, smooth skin gradations and exceptional detail.







Specifically, Nikon said:
The D300 EXPEED system features 14-bit analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion with 16-bit image processing, both of which contribute to ...

Translation:
The EXPEED Chipset has the 14-bit A/D conversion AFE and its Image Processing Engine (core IC) is using 16-bit internal pipeline.

Think another way, Nikon did not say:
"The D300's CMOS imager performs the 14-bit analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion while D300 EXPEED system features 16-bit image processing, combine these two functions to contribute to ..."



BTW, that design is not much different than the D3's which the A/D conversion is not done inside that full-frame Nikon proprietary CMOS sensor.

Summary, I would guess:

IMX021 has the analog output mode (i.e., internal 12-bit A/D is not used), just like the traditional CCD sensors.
In 14-bit mode, EXPEED (many common element shared both in D3 and D300 designs) chipset's own A/D does the 14-bit magic.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs A700 / D300 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1882470 - 10/03/07 08:25 AM

People starts to play with A700 on dark:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1037&thread=24964760


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs A700 / D300 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #1884969 - 10/04/07 07:38 AM

Additional study on high ISO in A700 and in-body RAW NR when ISO >=1600

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA700/AA700IMAGING.HTM
(They are still refining...)


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ccs_hello
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Re: new CMOS sensors in DSLRs A700 / D300 new [Re: ccs_hello]
      #2040822 - 12/10/07 07:28 AM

English version of the IMX021 product brief is now in

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol50/pdf/imx021.pdf


Personal note: the "S" (Signal) part of the component is impressive. This means the sensitivity is good. Based on my back of the envelope calculation/estimation, it is back to the same league as in 6 Mpxl APS-C CCD imagers ICX413 and ICX453 class.

P.S. from the recent dpreview forum discussions, it seems that both "N" and "S" are simply using the imager in their photographic apparatus (i.e., DSLR ) and they prefer some in-body processing as well as in "RAW to TIFF" developing software even when camera setting is RAW and NR is LOW or OFF. I.e., raw output of the imager is not available and RAW is not raw.
P.S. 2, one experiment stated that there seems to be a black level clipping activity (raised the floor) going on in "N"'s RAW developing software, thus low-light/dark looks very clean.

Clear Skies!

ccs_hello


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