Doug D.
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Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 2496
Loc: Virginia
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Sorry Tim - no experience with the Mark IVs to report. You might try the AP refractor Yahoo group for opinions.
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Hooville
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Doug -
Thanks.... and thanks for your thoughts on the AP's via PM the other day... always a pleasure exchanging notes with you on different purchases!
OT - I have heard recent laments that this board is "Denk-centric". With my own recent experience,I don't see that changing. I would love to hear more about AP binoviewers, they are one of the two I am thinking of purchasing, but I have posted two questions in the last couple of days for the AP owners and all I hear are crickets.
My impression at this point is that there is no "malintent" with those represented on the board, it just seems that either not many people own AP's, or they don't want to post, or they just don't frequent the board!
It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy that the board hears a lot about Denkmeier. It seems their owners are well represented, and eager to discuss, share experiences and answer questions folks might have. So maybe it's true - the # of posts about Denk's must be a representative slice of the number of folks that own them. Either that or this thread hit the only 3-4 folks who own AP's out there!! ( I know, gross exaggeration... I think). What gives AP owners? You owe it to the AP faithful to speak up!!
Thanks again Doug for the reply and recent PM's on other topics... just so you know I am only trying to state my observations, and not singling you out here...
Tim
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Doug D.
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Reged: 08/23/05
Posts: 2496
Loc: Virginia
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No problem Tim, I don't feel singled out. I would certainly like to be more help with the Mark Vs but without anything other than my Chinese BVs as a reference, there is not much I can say and certainly nothing about the Denks - other than the fact that there are a lot more Denk owners out there than Baader, that much is clear.
The Amart binoviewer classifieds also have a lot of Denks generally represented - lest anyone thinks I'm suggesting this indicates any dissatisfaction with Denks, I quickly assure you it does not. It just confirms for me that there are a lot of Denks out there in circulation.
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Hooville
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blandp11
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Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
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I started this thread in part to try to get the conversation flowing on these binoviewers. I only use them with refractors so I can't answer questions on how they might work with newts or cats.
In general one should never have an issue with any of the commercial SCT as they have such a large focus range that I would be surprised if any binoviewer didn't reach focus in then at zero power. For other cats I have no clue.
Other than that, the Mk.V allows me to view through my TEC 180FL, AP 130EDF and AP Traveler as if it weren't in the way and at zero power if I desire. It holds up it's end of the optical chain. Sweet in my book.
Philip
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Mostly refractors
Edited by blandp11 (09/18/07 10:45 PM)
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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Quote:
I didn't get any answers to my last post from the AP owners... so here is another question.
Have any of the Mark V owners also used / owned a Mark IV in the past? I read about the improvements to the Mark V on the AP site over the Mark IV, but wanted some practical first hand feedback in any differences noted.
Folks on AM are constantly stating on selling that "... Roland still prefers the Mark IV to the Mark V..." as part of the sales pitch. Don't know fact from fiction, maybe they have a "hotline" directly to Roland , or he fed that back via an Yahoo posting?
Thoughts on the Mark IV BV welcomed...
Tim
I've owned both and used them extensively in the short Stowaway, the long Stowaway, the Traveler, the AP 130 f6, the AP 155 f7, and the AP 10" f14.6 Mak-Cass. They work in all, but certain scope/eyepiece combinations need the Barcon to come to focus. The Mk IV is a very nice binoviewer. Both have excellent optics/prisms and take high power eyepieces without showing prism aberrations. The MkV has better light throughput due to better coatings but the difference is at the limit of perception and is barely noticeable, hence Roland's decision not to upgrade (AFAIK, he didn't say he preferred the Mk IV, he said he just didn't feel the need to upgrade). The most notable difference is the MkV's adjustable self-centering eyepiece holders. Nice. The Mk IV doesn't have them, just a single setscrew, so diopter adjustment involves pulling one eyepiece out a bit.
There were a few issues with the initial production run of the Mk IV's that were addressed in subsequent runs, so if you are looking for one be sure to find out when it was produced.
First, there was no stop that would prevent a very long eyepiece barrel from hitting the prism. Not a problem with normal length eyepieces but some of the Radians have a long barrel and can ding the prism on one side (can't remember which side, right or left, but I think it was the right side). There was a user-installable stop issued and it solved the problem; installation involved opening the housing of the binoviewer and installing the stop over the prism, but it is an easy fix as long as you are very careful.
Second, the eyepiece opening of the initial run units was exactly 1.25" and an eyepiece that has a barrel of exactly 1.25" will get stuck in the holder, depending on temperature (differential expansion between the aluminum eyepiece holder and the brass barrel of the eyepiece, would fit if the temperature was low but would bind when the temp was above about 85 degrees F). My Zeiss Abbe orthos, whose barrels measure exactly 1.25" (gotta love that German precision!), would get stuck during solar observing and I'd have to cool them down to extract them. I sent the binoviewers to Roland and he machined out the eyepiece opening 0.001" and they worked just fine thereafter. Of course, the anodizing was gone on the inside of the eyepiece holder but that was a cosmetic issue that could only be seen by looking into the opening. He reported the problem to Baader and they adjusted the opening size a little on subsequent runs so it would not be an issue.
Third, the Baader prism diagonal originally had a plastic housing. Worked just fine but seemed a little cheap to put even one piece of plastic on a fine instrument like that. They later went to a metal housing for the prism diagonal, not sure if there was a change in optics to go with it, but the one that comes with the MkV is superb.
If you get the Mk IV look for the Lapides adjustable eyepiece holders. Expensive (about $500 IIRC) but they work very well, adding both a diopter adjustment on one eye and brass compression rings on both. Keep in mind you will have to recollimate the eyepiece holders once you change them out, not difficult but something to keep in mind.
Overall, I'm glad I upgraded to the MkV and you'll love them if you get one, but if you can get a deal on the Mk IV's and don't mind not having a diopter adjustment they will give you excellent images at a much lower price.
Paul Gustafson
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Rick
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 3285
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Quote:
Overall, I'm glad I upgraded to the MkV and you'll love them if you get one, but if you can get a deal on the Mk IV's and don't mind not having a diopter adjustment they will give you excellent images at a much lower price.
I picked up a Mark IV for a bargain $600+ price and it was a definite optically visible step up from my Denk Standards. Took much higher power, no spurious reflections, and huge prisms that don't vignette the Pan 24mm. I stupidly sold them to help with a sale of a TOA130 and regretted it so much I ended plunking down the full $1700 for a Mark V. It is nice but I don't think my views are 3x better than I was getting in the Mark IV.
Rick
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Wow. Great answer... Thanks Paul.
A couple of questions:
Quote:
There were a few issues with the initial production run of the Mk IV's that were addressed in subsequent runs, so if you are looking for one be sure to find out when it was produced.
Do you have an idea of timeframe? A colleague in my astro club is thinking of selling his, and his was made 7 years ago... would that be after the initial run?
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tjswood
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Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Paul - did you ever hear of some using the TV 2x corrector to aid in coming to focus in Newtonians on the Mark IV? Is this a substitute for the Newtonian correction provided by AP (I think its a $254 accessory from AP).
Tim
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tjswood
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Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
I ended plunking down the full $1700 for a Mark V. It is nice but I don't think my views are 3x better than I was getting in the Mark IV.
Rick -
Sound advice, I am thinking I could be happy with a pristine set of the Mark IV's too... thanks for sharing your experience there.
Tim
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Rick
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/12/05
Posts: 3285
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Tim, just look in the Mark IV holder for the thin stop just above the prism. If it is not there I would pass on it. Yes, the I have the TV 2x corrector that fits/works with both the Mark IV & V.
cheers, Rick
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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Quote:
Wow. Great answer... Thanks Paul.
A couple of questions:
Quote:
There were a few issues with the initial production run of the Mk IV's that were addressed in subsequent runs, so if you are looking for one be sure to find out when it was produced.
Do you have an idea of timeframe? A colleague in my astro club is thinking of selling his, and his was made 7 years ago... would that be after the initial run?
From Company 7's web site, "The original Carl Zeiss and early production Baader Binocular viewers made through 23 February 2000 incorporate a casting that was designed to accommodate eyepieces with barrel lengths of up to 1.2 inch (30.5mm). Eyepieces with barrels longer than this (such as the TeleVue "Radian" series and TeleVue 22mm Panoptic) can be accommodated in those Baader Binocular Viewers made since July 2000 since these incorporate a stop to prevent damage to the internal prism."
http://www.company7.com/astrophy/options/apbino.html
Mine was in the first shipment of the first production run (actually, that's a picture of it with the green background on the Company 7 page noted above). I'd have to dig up my receipt to get the exact day it arrived, but I can take a guess. When the Zeiss Abbe orthos were first released, Marty at C7 loaned me a set because he knows how fanatical a lunar/planetary observer I am. I tried them one night, sent him a check the next day. C7's web page says that was April of 1997:
http://www.company7.com/zeiss/products/czabbeoclr.html
About one year later the 100 sets of ZAO's allocated to N. America were nearly sold out (keep in mind nobody really knew about them at that time, they were niche eyepieces for the extremely picky, and nobody could have predicted they would go nuts on the used market) when Marty called me and told me there were plans by Baader and AP to reintroduce the Zeiss binoviewer and wanted to know if I wanted another set of ZAO's for the ultimate binoviewing eyepiece set. I had used the Zeiss binoviewer and was very interested but since the new binoviewer wasn't a done deal I was reluctant to pop the money for another set of ZAO's for something that may not come to pass. Marty offered to buy them back from me at full retail price if the binoviewer didn't happen, so I picked up the second set in Spring of 98. The binoviewers arrived later that year or early the next. The center logo on mine differed from the later one pictured in the C7 page in that mine said, "Made in Germany" or "Made in West Germany." I'll look for a picture to post.
-------------------- Gus
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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tjswood
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Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Thanks again Paul, this helps to understand the timeframe!
One question Paul / Rick - are you saying stay away from first run BV's? Or just be aware of the issues / pitfalls? A point was made that the prism may have changed "optically" between runs, and that with the other three points has me a little leary....
Tim
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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Quote:
Paul - did you ever hear of some using the TV 2x corrector to aid in coming to focus in Newtonians on the Mark IV? Is this a substitute for the Newtonian correction provided by AP (I think its a $254 accessory from AP).
Tim
I don't have a newt, can't help you there. I remember some people cutting their truss tubes shorter to work with binoviewers, but can't remember any details.
-------------------- Gus
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
I remember some people cutting their truss tubes shorter to work with binoviewers, but can't remember any details.
So it sounds like all ya' would need is a jigsaw, some goggles and coffee, and yer' good to go!
I have heard similar a few times too, but I don't think I would be chopping truss tubes to accomodate a BV, but that's just me...
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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Quote:
One question Paul / Rick - are you saying stay away from first run BV's? Or just be aware of the issues / pitfalls? A point was made that the prism may have changed "optically" between runs, and that with the other three points has me a little leary....
I didn't mean to give that impression, just wanted to let you know what to look for. The Mk IV has great optics, nearly indistiguishable from the MkV, and for their going price right now they are a steal. I'd have no hesitation to jump on a nice Mk IV if the glass is in good shape. Everything else is minor.
Check out what Roland had to say about the optics of the Baader:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug/message/27331
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug/message/18178
The first production run will have "Made in Germany" or "Made in West Germany" on the center hinge where the Baader logo resides.
The only thing I really didn't like about the Mk IV is the butt-ugly huge Baader sticker on the body. Happily it comes off.
-------------------- Gus
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
The only thing I really didn't like about the Mk IV is the butt-ugly huge Baader sticker on the body. Happily it comes off.
Too bad you can't peel off the "TEC 140" logo on some of those 5k refractors!! (or maybe you can?) Not sure about you folks, but there are some poorly executed advertising / billboards called telescopes out there that just ruin the way they look. (Sorry Rick, but Tak is another one...) I know, I know, its all about performance... but I kind of equate it to would you put a Telrad on your $8K refractor (don't laugh, some do...)
That's why I like TV's asethetics... clean lines, no stickers, not painted on logo's... I keep my NP101 on a wood tripod in the front room once in a while, and even my parents comment on how it "looks neat".
YMMV!!!
OK, back on topic... your fault for bringing it up Paul! 
Tim
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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Quote:
...but I don't think I would be chopping truss tubes to accomodate a BV
Tim- Perhaps dual sets of truss poles would suffice? I know, it'd mean a different assembly for a different session, but... 
Myself, i might almost be a candidate for such a solution, as once the BVer goes *in*, it pretty much stays there for the duration.
Glad to hear/see the forum get some AP response & info on this subject. This forum *does* seem to be "Denkcentric", but i s'pect its that Denks represent the "bell" of the curve- a very enviable market position, no question.
Best to ya in nabbing the BVer you're hoping for! mike b
-------------------- "I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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tjswood
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Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
Best to ya in nabbing the BVer you're hoping for!
Thanks, old friend!
WHy don't you send me yours for a trial run to see if I like the Denks? I promise to send it back inside a month... and when my 7 yr olds look through it I will make sure they washed the PBJ off their faces and hands... 
Tim
PS - two sets of truss poles...interesting... I personally only plan on using BV's on a big Dob occasionally... but that's just me, I have always been a little different. Definitely not an "in for the duration" kinda guy with a Dob and BV's it would be more 70/30 or 50/50 depending on the conditions, target and how much I wanted to fiddle while standing instead of sitting.
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Mike B
Starstruck
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 8169
Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
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I promise to send it back inside a month...
Geee... which ONE would that be? Got 12. 
Ahhh... PB&J. A staple around here for decades! But they're pretty bad for skin-conditioning purposes. Don't bother asking me how i know that. 
The BV-Dob pairing is definitely not as clean as that with a CAT; You're losing FOV to an OCA, or you've got a larger CO to accomodate a fore-shortened lightpath to the focuser. But i'm suffering thru it nonetheless. 
Hey- you must be right on the threshold of a HUGE astro purchase! I can tell... our stunningly gorgeous weather has *JUST* turned for the first time this season- clouds have blown in this ayem, & precip is due behind it. Should be your way before long... get that plastic handy! 
Cheers, mike b
-------------------- "I have been paddling in the shallows of a great ocean of knowledge." - Sir Isaac Newton
* * 15" F4.55 Starsplitter Dob & a Denk II binoviewer * *
http://peaceofsky.wordpress.com/
Pacheco State Park
Fremont Peak
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
Hey- you must be right on the threshold of a HUGE astro purchase! I can tell... our stunningly gorgeous weather has *JUST* turned for the first time this season- clouds have blown in this ayem, & precip is due behind it. Should be your way before long... get that plastic handy!
You're a day late as the saying goes.... out last night till 10 splittin' doubles, and got up at 3am to check out Mars... it was acutally nice with some detail for once, its a 9" now and growing! (
ANd guess what - it was 72 degrees out there at 3am, and some nice cool dew on the grass!!! Let me say that again.... it was 72... you get the picture.
And purchases... you're a day late again... the mag strip on my plastic is worn off! Bought a few toys recently, including some personal toys for me and the boys(like a PS3... cool!). Also bought a surveyor tripod yesterday, a Giro III a couple weeks ago, a Los saddle plate and dew shield at OPT yesterday... not to mention the SM below (which btw I switched to a 14.5" recently, that's another story)... and I am in constant talks with Mark at Teton and others about a possible 7-8" MCT.
So, as usual you are on target my friend, just lagging a few days!!! 
TIm
PS - Gotta run some errands, see you guys in a couple hours...
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