Erix
Toad Lily
Reged: 12/25/04
Posts: 24022
Loc: Texas, USA
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Please feel free to discuss the various methods of sketching. It's a great topic, and we can all learn from everyone's ideas and insights.
We've advanced so far with the digital age upon us that it's wonderful to see that method included. I know I love making animations of the sketches and certainly appreciate being able to clean up my star's rough edges. It would be great to learn how to add color or use photo-editing tools for making the sketch more true to what I see from the eyepiece.
I'm in awe of the talent here and the friendliness. This forum is a great place to not only give encouragement, but that constructive criticism is also encouraged to help us improve our techniques. Sometimes that criticism is hard to swallow, but we don't do each other any favors if we don't gently help each other improve. And I know that if I've got something marked incorrectly, I appreciate it being pointed out to me so I can learn from it and correct it.
Along those same lines, if someone wants to know how I've rendered a sketch or what tools I've used, I am most happy to share the technique and explain how I've done it. After all, that's what this particular forum was created for. 
During this discussion, tolerance is of the utmost importance. 
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Erika
Automatic doors make me feel like a Jedi. 
Zhumell 16", 10" LX200 Classic,Celestron 102 XLT, ETX70-AT, DS Maxscope 60mm, AT6RC
PCW Memorial Observatory
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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Great stuff, Erika.
Each method is valid and it's nice to be able to discuss them with like minded people.
Sketching is alive and well in the CCD age and that is good to see when not long ago some were predicting visual astronomy's demise. Long live visual astronomy and sketching!
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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rolandlinda3
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 3140
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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Thanks, Erika, for the guidance and encouragement.
Perhaps a simple way of identifying differences in techniques by posters is to identify the method. Then those who love digital work will probably gravitate to it; those who like the electronic-free approach can gravitate to it; or one can enjoy both. In any case, knowing a few artists, there will be a multiplicity of methods that are black, white, and many shades between (so to speak). My brain cannot keep up with the possibilities, but there is most certainly originality in all of it.
I am used to the same issues because eye piece-only observers have suggested that assistive optics is not really observing. I don't take offense, however, I just keep watching and sketching from my monitor with my iced coffee beside me and with a comfortable chair beside my lovely wife. Yet, sometimes I put it all away, grab a Panoptic, and pan the skies with glee. Gosh, does it get any better?
Roland
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Roland
Blog: www.rolandlinda3.wordpress.com
Older sketches in Members Galleries (rolandlinda3)
For other sketches/inspirational stories: contact me via PM for information
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rodelaet
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/06
Posts: 3185
Loc: 50°56' N - 4°58' E (Belgium)
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Roland,
About video astronomy & sketching:
I have encountered the same reactions from observers over here, they say that Video Astronomy (VA) is not accepted as visual observing. Therefor I cannot log VA observations in the clubs database. I believe that this aspect of astronomy is yet to be discovered by the larger group of observers.
VA offers many advantages, like observing in group / tackling light polution / enhancing the light grasp of a scope / aiding visual impaired observers / revealing color in DSO's / comfort of viewing / etc.
It is my opinion that more people, be it light-poluted-city residents or visual impaired amateur astronomers(to whom I include myself because of the glasses I wear), can enjoy the hobby with use of VA. I can imagin that my eyesight and night vision will degrade over the years. I'll be happy to use a camera and monitor to enjoy the night sky and why not to sketch what I observe. Astronomy clubs all over the world have trouble finding young members to join the league, because youngsters want more spectacular things to do. Well VA is spectacular, even from a city sky. Time will tell if VA will become more accepted, but it sure can bring the hobby closer to more people. 
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Rony
'The Casual Sky Observer's Guide.'
My Astronomical Sketches
My Binocular Sketches
Callibrate your Monitor with this little strip.
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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1985
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I will try to get deeper into this subject as time progresses.
My next time out observing Mars, I think I'll continue by using sketches in a "how can one see better" type of thing.
In another thread I started to show what it is I first see at the eyepiece.
Next time I'll try focus on this with more detail. Sketching can teach us how to see better. Sort of like using your eyes like a knife that can peel away at an onion. This occured to me a little while when I was reviewing sketches from the previous 2 Mars apparitions. I was struck by my sketched examples that I am now getting down to finer details at a much smaller apparent diameter of Mar's disk. I just got to figure out how to explain how this can be done with the least amount of metaphor.
Though I think I'll use sketches as a format kind of thing, this won't exactly take the form of a sketching tutorial.
Hope to come up with something soon.
Best,
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S.R.
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Acheron
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/07/05
Posts: 813
Loc: Croatia, Velika Gorica
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Quote:
About video astronomy & sketching:
I have encountered the same reactions from observers over here, they say that Video Astronomy (VA) is not accepted as visual observing.
For me, there is nothing comparable to night sky visible with naked eye. There are no limits in dynamic range of 255 colors, artefact's like pixel bleeding, hot pixels, noise or something. Things can be beautiful even if they are gray smudges. Simplicity is virtue, simplicity is something like perfection. As long as I will be able, I will turn my head upward to see heavens. I'm doing that since I was a kid and to prove that, look how long neck I have from all that nudging and turning head.  
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I like sketching...
8" F6 Dob - "Betsy"
12" F5 Dob - "Tristac"
Messier Catalogue - done
Herschel 400 - 189 more to go
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vizualno-promatranje-Svemira/236702789691880?sk...
Edited by Erix (09/19/07 03:04 PM)
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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I agree, Acheron. Sketching from a screen via a camera is not my scene either, I much prefer the view through my eyepiece. However, I don't have a problem with others sketching from a screen if that's what they want to do.
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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rodelaet
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/06
Posts: 3185
Loc: 50°56' N - 4°58' E (Belgium)
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I'm not an artist. When I started observing a few years ago, I had no intention to sketch at all. I had not touched a pencil since I left school. I just wanted to enjoy the view. Soon I discovered that my memory was not capable to hold all the impressions of the night sky. So I started with a log book. I like to read and discovered 'The Messier Objects' of James O'Meara. While going through the book, I decided to start my own Messier Project. I got myself a few pencils and started with simple objects. I've allways worked in two steps : a raw field sketch followed by a 'clean' desktop pencil sketch. The reasons are simple. My eyepiece sketches are covered with marks, wrong starpoints, stains and the like. Add to it that low light conditions are a blocking factor while trying to include subtle glows on paper. Then the idea of making a little website with my sketches was spinning through my head. I tried to digitize my sketches with a scanner. I was not that pleased with the scanned results. A lot of the subtle details of my sketches were gone. The sketches needed to be touched up on the computer before making them public. I spent a lot of time going from raw EP-sketch to desktop sketch to digitized sketch. After a while I decided to skip the desktop part in the story. Digital sketching has become the medium I prefer to work with. A few months ago I discovered the use of layers, and later the capability to work with color. Funny thing is that I now observe with the colored & layered sketch in mind, and it helps! It happens that I make one raw sketch with attention to star color and brightnesses while making a second one of the same field with emphasis to luminosity and nebula glow. I do not try to make a photo. I try to represent the experience at the eyepiece in the most honest and realistic way. The sketch is a memory of a live observation, for later use and for comparison with my own and others observations. I don't see it as art because I don't express myself on a creative way. The sketching techniques could be considered as creative? With a sketch I only want to say : look, this is how it looked to me, or this is what you can expect to see with my kind of scope.
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Rony
'The Casual Sky Observer's Guide.'
My Astronomical Sketches
My Binocular Sketches
Callibrate your Monitor with this little strip.
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Jeremy Perez
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 2125
Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
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Rony, your motivation/purpose for using digital techniques is much the same as mine. Thanks for saying it so well (saved me a lot of typing )
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Orion SVP 6LT (6" f/8 Newt) || Orion XT8 (8" f/5.9 Dob) || 15x70 Oberwerk Binoculars || Coronado PST
The Belt Of Venus || Sketch Gallery || Sketching Resources || Drawn to the Universe Column
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Erika,
I think that this thread is an excellent idea as there does seem to be quite a bit of controversy and misunderstanding(s) among many in what is or isn’t art, artistic talent, and the various mediums used to create such.
I can not speak for others, but here is my take on the subject:
I do not consider one medium superior or more exclusive over another. Art is simply an expression of ones personality and observations (in general terms) of the world around them and how they choose to share their views (literally) and their enthusiasm with others.
I have been and am fortunate in that I have become friends with many artists over many years, many of them skilled and talented in different mediums. Each one unique in their talents and works…different but nonetheless talented. It isn’t the medium they use that makes them excellent artists, but the passion they have for what they create. The medium they choose is simply that with which they are comfortable and skilled in projecting their passion.
However, personal preference is a different matter altogether and often times leads to bias on the part of the observer or individual. Anyone who is biased against a certain medium will most likely never accept or appreciate any person or persons talents, passion, and excitement in what they create or how they choose to share their works with others. If a person has a diversion or bias against (for arguments sake) Watercolors, then it will not matter how skilled or passionate the artist using this medium is as the biased individual observer has already made the decision in their mind not to like, enjoy or appreciate this medium.
For example, my skill as a “Pencil & Paper” artist is, quite honestly, terrible, whereas in the Digital realm I am very much at ease using the tools at my disposal. Being comfortable with this medium allows me to project my passion, enthusiasm and enjoyment in a way that I can not achieve or project on paper. When sketching at the EP, my “sketches” are really nothing more than well-documented notes of position, color, etc. Very much akin to a receptionist taking notes during a meeting and then sitting down at the computer to accurately type a written report and format the end result in a pleasing and professional manner.
All of us, regardless of the medium(s) of choice, have had those days, weeks or months where no matter how hard we try; we just can not seem to create anything that pleases us.
Why?
For whatever reason, despite having all of our tools in front of us, we don’t feel the passion that is essential in projecting our feelings in a tangible form during these times. Skill levels, talent, and medium(s) used are of no consequence if one does not first and foremost have the passion to create.
Unless one is looking to become a world-renowned and commercially successful artist, the creation of art is not and should not be seen as a competition nor judged on the overall finished product. Art is about enjoying the overall self-satisfying creative process.
That is just my opinion.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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desertstars
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
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Quote:
For me...
With that phrase, tolerance should begin. I prefer the view through an eyepiece, and work only with a pencil, an eraser, and an ample supply of paper. I scan my sketches for safe keeping, but otherwise leave them alone. Sketching, for me, serves a simple purpose: it focuses my attention on subtle detail. There is no art in it. There doesn't need to be. That's how it works for me. And this is not a judgement cast on how others approach the matter. Such a judgement would be meaningless. So instead of judging my way against anyone else's, I'll just look over your collective shoulders and see how other methods and motives are put to use.
Maybe this interaction will change what I do at the eyepiece. Maybe I'll just shrug and go sharpen my pencil.
That's just how it works for me...
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Thomas Watson
Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
@desertstarsbks
Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading
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Joad
Wordsmith
Reged: 03/22/05
Posts: 18002
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Just a note from someone who has difficulty signing his name, much less drawing anything, but who does teach aesthetic history.
The fact is that there is an historically induced ambiguity sedimented within the word "art" itself. Originally, the word was simply short for "artifice," and was related to the Greek word "techne´" or "craft." An artist was someone with a techne´, and thus Plato denied that the people we would call "artists" (poets, painters, and sculptors), were really artists at all (his reasons for this involved a complicated interaction of politics and metaphysics that there is no use going into). Until the Romantic era, to say that something was highly "artificial" was high praise, because it meant that it was well made or crafted.
The connection of "art" with beauty is tricky as well. Neoclassical critics called a work of art beautiful if it was well constructed—well artificed according to a strict set of rules. Kant, for his part, made little or no distinction between natural (unartificed) and artificed beauty.
The connection of "art" with personal expression is still a relatively new idea, which can be traced to the advent of Romanticism. Rousseau and Wordsworth are especially important names in this transition.
And then there is the affect of photography. John Ruskin argued that "artists" (he was referring to painters) had a duty to represent the natural world as precisely as possible so scientists could study nature through art. Photography blew that one out of the water fast, and "artists" found themselves drifting ever further away from representational art—towards Impressionism, Cubism, Expressionism, Abstract Expressionism, and so on—as they sought to redefine "art" in an age of what Walter Benjamin called "mechanical reproduction." With photography able to handle the mimetic chores, "artists" fled mimetics.
The current discussion, perforce, is tied up in this history. There are no right answers because there is no absolute definition of art. For some, an astro- sketch is a "scientific" (one might almost say Ruskinian) representation; for others astro-sketching is a combination of personal expression and the creation of beauty. Historically, both points of view are valid.
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rolandlinda3
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/24/06
Posts: 3140
Loc: Crozet VA 22932
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This is a great discussion, and already has a wide variety of favorite approaches mentioned. I seriously enjoy naked eye and assistive optics but claim ignorance of digital techniques. I expect to learn if someone will teach me one day. I wanted to chime in once more only because I forgot a primary reason why I usually use video astronomy and have encouraged others to try it....my eyes are ageing and my back cannot stand more than about 40 minutes at certain angles. So I squint and carefully study a screen to substitute for my limitations, but also gain the other advantages: observing in haze/sky&moon glow and ability to reach with a given telescope much farther without having to buy the BIG ONE. At 57, I have become more sensitive to make things do-able for my wife or myself, but also for physically disadvantaged folks or people in a group environment, where one dare not let too many people get too near the gear. Notwithstanding, as many have said, the thing that makes my eye or my eye with the screen work is the study/sketching combination. I don't think the method of the eye's receipt of information is as important as the learning process that takes place as one studies and sketches. Clear skies, everyone. Roland
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Roland
Blog: www.rolandlinda3.wordpress.com
Older sketches in Members Galleries (rolandlinda3)
For other sketches/inspirational stories: contact me via PM for information
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RichardHK
sage
Reged: 11/25/06
Posts: 396
Loc: Hong Kong
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I am a visual guy, and looking to get more into sketching. This forum and this thread in particular is very valuable. Thanks all.
One question for the digi-sketchers out there (Wade and Co). Has anyone tried using a graphics tablet with PC (or even a tablet PC) to go direct from eye to digital while sitting at the scope? If graphics editors and animators can go straight to digital, why not visual astronomers?
Excuse me if I have missed this somewhere here, but the thought popped up as I read this and other threads. I too like the digital rendition of direct-visuals. (Not sketching off a monitor.)
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Richard Entwistle, Hong Kong
ETX-125, SV90TBV, & PST scopes
Canon 15x50-IS & Fujinon 7x50 bins
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kraterkid
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/07/05
Posts: 4709
Loc: Jacumba, California
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Richard, I believe Rony has done this, though I'm not sure if these sketches were accomplished directly at the eyepiece or not.
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Rich
My CN Gallery
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antilles72
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 1709
Loc: Rhode Island
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Never thought of that Richard. I am sure that since the tablets have become very sensitive, that it can be done.
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Royston
Royston's Cosmic Log
Royston Kane Photography
Royston Kane SmugMug
Orion Scenix 10x50
Bushnell Sky Chief III 60mm F/15
Orion Sirius Plossl 10mm, 20mm, 25mm
Nikon D7000, Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8, Sigma 10-20mm
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Jeremy Perez
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 2125
Loc: Flagstaff, Arizona, USA
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Although I have access to a tablet, I don't have access to a laptop with a paint program, so I haven't tested this. My (possibly knee-jerk) concern is that even with screen output set extremely faint, and a sheet of ruby-lith taped to it, dark adaptation would really get creamed--if you are trying to do deep sky observing. Planetary, Lunar and Solar could be a totally different story though...
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Orion SVP 6LT (6" f/8 Newt) || Orion XT8 (8" f/5.9 Dob) || 15x70 Oberwerk Binoculars || Coronado PST
The Belt Of Venus || Sketch Gallery || Sketching Resources || Drawn to the Universe Column
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WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
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Quote:
Has anyone tried using a graphics tablet with PC (or even a tablet PC) to go direct from eye to digital while sitting at the scope?
I do use a Graphics Tablet, but not on my laptop; and I do not take any of my computers (towers or laptops) outside for any reason. I would suppose that in theory it can or could be done, but I have never attempted to do so.
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Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars
My Sketch Gallery
My Astronomy Blog
A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.
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rodelaet
Post Laureate
Reged: 04/28/06
Posts: 3185
Loc: 50°56' N - 4°58' E (Belgium)
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Hi Richard,
I use a pressure sensitive pen and a tablet for my digital sketches. I mostly use them on my laptop, but always indoors. I take my laptop outdoors when using my video camera for video astronomy, which is great. The laptop serves as capture device and monitor. But the screen ruins my night vision, even on the darkest settings. It does not matter for Video Astronomy, but sketching DSO's with a glowing screen is not feasable. It may sound odd, but I like my pencil and fineliner the most when working at the eyepiece. As I mentionned before, low light conditions do not allow me to apply subtle details on paper. My eyes just don't detect enough detail on paper. So I mark my stars heavy with a fineliner and nebulae are drawn with pencil 'stripes'. This combination allows me to make out any stars that were visible in a nebula.
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Rony
'The Casual Sky Observer's Guide.'
My Astronomical Sketches
My Binocular Sketches
Callibrate your Monitor with this little strip.
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oldsalt
Astro Philosopher
Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 8806
Loc: Pa - between starparties
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Art like beauty is a subjective matter. I am a beginner sketcher, but can see the value of all forms of recording a viewing session. Be it film, electronic, or the traditional sketching. All take an eye for capturing what is seen , no matter how that is done. Even those who only record their words , describing what they see leave us with some form of artistic impression of what they see. i hope this takes off well, and look forward to reading and viewing posts in all flavors of recording the viewing session.
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There are no winners in war, only bigger losers.
"Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less.” Rober E Lee
"It is well that war is terrible-otherwise we would grow to fond of it" Robert E Lee 13Dec1862 Battle of Fredricksburg
Jim
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