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rboe



Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 63466
Loc: Phx, AZ
Cleaning Mirrors
      #18874 - 11/08/03 04:00 PM

A gentleman just had a post, as a newbie, and recalled how one old grizzled veteran told him in no uncertain terms that you should never clean your mirror for any reason.

It is my opinion that is just so much crap.

So I'm starting this tread because this could get out of hand; I'm sure many have strong opinions on this matter: And hopefully some good advise.

This myth on never cleaning mirrors or optics started when us poor users stood a very good chance of ruining our mirrors with excessive cleaning or improper cleaning. Not unlike early sailing days when we were advised to never sail beyond the sight of land.

There was an article in Sky & Telescope with in the past year by a fellow describing the light scatter induced by dust and dirt on the mirror. Contrary to popular opinion, dust and dirt will degrade your image quality. Like any fine instrument, proper care and cleaning must be observed to get the most out of it.

Observatories will routinely remove, clean and recoat their mirrors. Not only to you have remove the crud accumalated, but the reflective coating degrades and needs to be redone.

Visually it will take a fair amount of dirt for one to see a difference and this ability will vary from person to person. Like comparing good eye pieces to each other. Small amounts of contaminants will not be a problem. But if you can recall how that thin film of road crud on your windshield degrades your vision out the front of your car you can see how a dirty mirror will affect your viewing experience. Especially with faint fuzzies.

Hopefully we can get a discourse going to expose this myth for what it is. We don't want to have folks out cleaning when they don't need to, but we do need to encourage cleaning when even Oscar Madison would do something about it.

Thanks

Ron, one who HAS cleaned his 16" dob mirror - with good results, as a newbie.

--------------------
Ron


NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
127mm F9 Surplus Shed/Crawmach kit scope
Coronado SolarMax 40 on a Celestron 102 Wide Field



Best of ATM


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Anonymous
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Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: rboe]
      #18876 - 11/08/03 04:08 PM

I have read (but never done) that the best way to clean a primary mirror for a newtonian is to remove it, let it soak submersed in a cleaning solution for an hour and then air dry. Do not scrub or wipe the mirror in any way.

What would be the best solution to use? This solution seems to be reasonable.


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more


Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Tom Leavitt]
      #18885 - 11/08/03 05:35 PM

Hi, Tom.

Although Dr. Clay never states that solution shouldn't be used on first surface mirrors, he never states that it should, either. I clean my correctors as needed due to dew residue and such but I'm more conservative about mirrors. I've only cleaned two primary mirrors; a 16" Newt and a 10" SCT (still dunno how that got dirty!). Both of my current Newt mirrors show some minor dust & debris but I'll wait til they get worse. I may just wait until they need recoating.

Ron:

By the time a mirror gets as bad as the one in the story it's probably long overdue for coating anyway.

--------------------
John C

Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery

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AT65EDQ
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Bird
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Reged: 08/07/03
Posts: 3866
Loc: Murrumbateman, Australia
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #18891 - 11/08/03 05:59 PM

I have removed & cleaned my 10" primary a few times - with great care. I have owned this mirror for 14 years, and it has been cleaned maybe 3 or 4 times, and re-coated once.

The cleaning process involves immersing the mirror in a warm bath of soapy water and a lot of sloshing (but not touching the mirror).

I will carefully remove any crud that's stuck to the mirror - it's rare, but it happens - but there is no overall scrubbing or cleaning.

Then I hold the mirror under a running stream of cold water for a while, maybe 5 mins, to wash the soapy stuff off.

After this the mirror is usually clean enough that water beads and runs off it immediately, leaving only a few small spots of water to be dabbed up.

I never "scrub" or use any measurable force on the mirror surface, but I will softly wipe it dry with soft tissue paper.

cheers, Bird

--------------------

Deep Sky Optics 16" f/4 composite
Royce 16" conical f/4
Royce 14.5" conical f/5
Deep Sky Optics 13.1" conical f/5.5

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Charlie HeinAdministrator
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Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 11211
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Tom Leavitt]
      #18892 - 11/08/03 06:04 PM

As I've said before, as much as I would like to avoid getting the mirror dirty in the first place, if it gets serious grunge on it, I'd have a hard time leaving it be. I've read recommendations for trying to limit cleaning to once a year when necessary. I honestly have no idea how you gague when to do it, but I've gone through a few links talking about *how* to do it.

I'm not endorsing any of the following, just passing a few links I've read...

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/moonwardvc/caring.htm

http://www.telescopes-astronomy.com.au/telescopes061.htm

http://www.lbp.co.uk/Technical/PDF%20files/cleanoptic.PDF

http://www.corvus.com/pdf/a4cleaning.PDF

http://www.madbbs.com/~bemusabord/cleaning.html

...there are some common lines of thought running through all of these links. The internet being what it is, you can't always trust what you read, but these don't look to be too off base to me - but what do I know?

I am a newbie, after all.


Charlie

--------------------
Weston CSC:


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Stacy
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Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 3321
Loc: 48.0153° N, 122.0625° W
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Charlie Hein]
      #18894 - 11/08/03 06:25 PM

I was reading a review on excelsis.com from a new Discovery dob owner who "cleaned" his primary with a broomstick, paper towels and Windex!

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Norvin
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/10/03
Posts: 1540
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Stacy]
      #18896 - 11/08/03 06:32 PM

I wonder if the new cleaning solution you have to use if you wear a pair of glasses with anti-reflective coated lenses would work on the mirror. Maybe not.

Norvin
Post #136

--------------------
Norvin
10" Black X Class (GSO) Dobsonian
Norvinian Dobsonian Telescope Mount



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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Stacy]
      #18897 - 11/08/03 06:34 PM

John, you make an excellent point and after reading Bird's post, I realized that the article I read stated warm-soapy water and let it just sit and dissolve. After that, rinse and let it air dry. I think if there was a water spot or two on the mirror I would probably not worry about them and just let them be.

I love being a newby and having forums like this. I can ask questions first, learn and then do it right when the time comes, unlike our friend who used the broomstick, paper towels and windex.


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Stacy
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Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 3321
Loc: 48.0153° N, 122.0625° W
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Tom Leavitt]
      #18919 - 11/08/03 09:03 PM

I think this is an important topic so I made it stick. Hopefully we’ll continue to get good ideas and information on this often-debated subject!

Stacy


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: Stacy]
      #18986 - 11/09/03 09:24 AM

Ive had the pleasure of cleaning a C8s main primary last season. This required removing the corrector etc...so it was also cleaned inside and out as well. I couldnt remove the mirror easly so I simply cleaned it while still inside the OTA luckly, it cleaned easly as it isnt open to the air like a newt is and the film cleaned off easly. I blew off the dust first then used the mix stated from Dr.Clays website, then very very gently buffed it with a soft cotton material while all the time using new clean cotton so as not to use the dirty cotton again on any swipes, it dosent have a single scratch as far as I can see, I was worried about all that from what Ive read about guys goofing up mirrors, guess mine has tough coatings maybe? Anyway, hope I never ever have to do it again especially since its now collimated. But it can be wiped if you are very gentle about it and use the softest cotton you can get, be sure its a lint free cotton material. If my main was exposed all the time like a dob or any reflector id do the remove and soak and rinse like everyone else does tho as im sure crud builds up fast on em in a yr or so being so exposed to dew and dirt etc.Dave

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rboe



Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 63466
Loc: Phx, AZ
Re: Cleaning Mirrors new [Re: ]
      #19009 - 11/09/03 11:11 AM

I believe in theory that method can/does cause scratches - but very very small ones. Certainly smaller than your typical dust particle you seeing laying around (not talking about that teenage son...).

Phoenix, and I imagine other desert areas, is very dusty and dirty. Wind borne junk can coat everything with very abrasive dust. Any buffing action or compressed air will give those tiny scratches. Probably viewable using glancing light source.

A recoating should remove those though; the aluminium filling the canyons in as it's sputtered on.

This leads into a second question: What would the average life of a mirror? Should you measure this in how long you would own it (which in turn leads to how old are you?! ) Or maybe how long should it last? My current 16" mirror is about 25 years old and in desperate need for a recoating. It has a long and storied past; I'm only the third owner, the second that actually had it in a scope.

Some mirrors we could consider throw away I suppose. One would easily think about replacing an eight inch or six inch mirror long before replacing a 16" or 20" or larger mirror. The economics dictate that.

If you have a reasonable life of a mirror (or times between recoating) then you should be able to come up with a reasonable cleaning schedule based on your method of cleaning. Broomsticks would get get you shorter life mirrors, a favored customer status at the coating house. Cotton swabs or baths and your grand kids would have to deal with it.

For blunders you can have the mirror refigured anyway - although the pricing gives me pause! But hey, if you and the mirror have some history and it's a very good mirror and scope it should be done.

--------------------
Ron


NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
127mm F9 Surplus Shed/Crawmach kit scope
Coronado SolarMax 40 on a Celestron 102 Wide Field



Best of ATM


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rboe



Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 63466
Loc: Phx, AZ
Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty new [Re: rboe]
      #19010 - 11/09/03 11:13 AM

As anybody tried using a large potential field to have static electricity to draw dust off a collector or mirror onto a collector plate?

Issues with this method - like loosing your coating?

--------------------
Ron


NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
127mm F9 Surplus Shed/Crawmach kit scope
Coronado SolarMax 40 on a Celestron 102 Wide Field



Best of ATM


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Happy Birthday matt
Vendor (Scopemania)


Reged: 07/28/03
Posts: 10991
Loc: Chaville, France
Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty new [Re: rboe]
      #19052 - 11/09/03 02:11 PM

There are two problems with rinsing & airdrying:
- "hard" water causes calcium carobonates of various forms ro form where the water evaporated
- dust comes back!

I have two solutions for these two problems:
- after the regular soapy bath and generous rinse, I give it a little rinse with distillated water to avoid dry deposits
- the mirror is usually quite warm after the bath so it will fry quickly, but I confess I usually use paper towels to absorb the drops which remain on the surface, to avoid dust sticking to them. I never press the paper towel to the surface, I just touch the tip of the drop with the towel and let the water soak up into the tissue.

And yes, it works for all things optical.

--------------------
Matt
CI700 mount with various scopes on top.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty new [Re: matt]
      #19071 - 11/09/03 03:26 PM

Excellent suggestion Matt. Distilled water for sure. My water is not hard so I take it for granted. I would also tilt the mirror so the water would runoff first for about 5 minutes and then do the absorption trick with paper towel or q-tip, all the while trying not to touch the mirror.

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Stacy
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Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 3321
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Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty new [Re: matt]
      #19076 - 11/09/03 03:43 PM

I soak mine in distilled water (I'm on a well with high mineral content) I wonder what the upper limit (time) for this is and what are the consequences?

I'm be curious about who re-coats mirrors and is recommended?

Stacy

Edited by Stacy (11/09/03 03:45 PM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty new [Re: Stacy]
      #19089 - 11/09/03 04:38 PM

If you're looking for someone who does the recoating, there is Steve Swayzee's in Portland. http://www.europa.com/~swayze/

I'm not sure it would be worth it with these chinese mirrors but I could be wrong. Don't know what the cost would be.


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Charlie HeinAdministrator
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Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 11211
Loc: 26.06.08N, +80.23.08W
Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty new [Re: Stacy]
      #19105 - 11/09/03 05:41 PM

Here's an article that pretty much follows the general consensus so far, and amplifies it a bit...

Charlie

Quote:


Cleaning Your Telescope's Mirror The Safe And Easy Way
by: Thom Bemus



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Over the years I've helped dozens of club members clean their telescope mirrors for the first time. Many people are terrfied during their first attempt. But there is no reason to be scared if you follow this safe and easy procedure.

First, do you really need to clean your mirrors? If your mirrors are just dusty, at most, rinse them only. Every time you clean your mirrors, even if you use the safest methods, you will make some microscopic scratches on your mirrors which scatter light. These tiny scratches degrade your telescope's performance much more than a little dust. Since you can't scratch mirrors if you don't physically touch them, I rinse my mirrors about two out of every three times I do cleaning. In general, amateur astronomers physically clean (ie: rub them when cleaning, as opposed to just rinsing) their telescopes too often. The large telescopes at major observatories get incredibly dusty, dirty and even have bird-dirt on them before they are cleaned. Given reasonable care in keeping out dust and dirt, most people should only need to clean their telescope once a year, at most. However, when tree sap or other residues appear on your mirror it is time to clean!

You will need the following items: a clean sink (preferably with a sprayer), a few drops of Dawn (blue) dish washing detergent, distilled or deionized water, one soft towel, a bowl to mix your cleaning solution in, one pint of 91% or higher rubbing alcohol (with NO skin conditioners or other additives), one package of sterile surgical cotton, a blow dryer (be sure to wipe any dust off of the dryer before you use it).

READY! Here is the safest way I've found to clean the mirrors in your telescope, I would suggest you save this for future reference:

1) Carefully remove the mirror from the cell (the mirror can be left in the cell if the cell is waterproof, but getting rid of water spots around any mirror clips can be a problem) and place it face up on a soft towel in a clean sink (don't clog the drain). Be sure to remove anything that might fall on your mirror from the area and keep curious children and pets away.

2) Run LUKE WARM tap water at moderate pressure on the mirror for about 5 minutes, making sure the entire mirror surface remains wet at all times.

3) Remove mirror from water stream and make sure all dust and debris that might scratch the mirror are gone, if not let it go under the water for another 5 minutes. Use your sink sprayer to remove stubborn dirt.

4) If the mirror appears clean after this water rinsing proceed to step #7.

5) Using a solution of 1 drop of dawn dish washing detergent mixed in one quart of warm tap water, dip a wad of surgical roll cotton into the solution and drag it (apply NO pressure accept the weight of the wet cotton) in a circular motion from the center to the outside edge around the face of the mirror, repeat if absolutely necessary, do not allow the any of the surface of the mirror to dry.

6) Immediately rinse the mirror for 5 more minutes with LUKE WARM tap water at moderate pressure to ensure that all of the soap residue is rinsed away.

7) Immediately rinse the mirror with distilled or deionized water.

8) Immediately rinse the mirror off with the 91% or higher rubbing alcohol while keeping the mirror tilted, this will strip most of the water off the mirror.

9) Using a blow dryer at low heat, try to blow any remaining water droplets off the edge of the mirror. Any that remain, you may BLOT [not rub!] them away VERY GENTLY with surgical cotton or a Q-tip.

10) Admire yourself in your in now very clean mirror, which is now ready to reinstall in your telescope.





--------------------
Weston CSC:


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jandrew
sage


Reged: 05/31/03
Posts: 233
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Re: Cleaning Mirrors - (sun safety) [Re: Charlie Hein]
      #19117 - 11/09/03 07:27 PM


I'll throw in a touch safety advice that I don't recall seeing mentioned anywhere. Just because the mirror isn't in a scope doesn't mean it isn't doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing --- don't let your mirror see direct sunlight!!

In particular, be careful handling your mirror at the kitchen sink (or in a plastic tub on the kitchen counter or table) right in front of that nice kitchen window!


--------------------
4.5" orbitor dob
8" skywatcher dob
Larrivee 6-string (oops, wrong instrument)


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Stacy
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Reged: 09/15/02
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Loc: 48.0153° N, 122.0625° W
Re: Cleaning Mirrors - static electricty [Re: Charlie Hein]
      #19118 - 11/09/03 07:30 PM

That's about the way I do it minus the running water and the cotton swabs. I just soak it. Running water carved the Grand Canyon!

Regards,
Stacy


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rboe



Reged: 03/16/02
Posts: 63466
Loc: Phx, AZ
Re: Cleaning Mirrors [Re: Charlie Hein]
      #19168 - 11/09/03 10:24 PM

Two links below, the first a short article on cleaning from Company 7, the second, an ATM article based on the method NOT recommended by Company 7: using U.S.P. Collodion

http://www.company7.com/library/clean.html
http://www.irhino.com/oldscope/atspages/techtips.htm

Having used U.S.P. Collodion it is probably more dangerous than Company 7 suggests. A method I bring up to underline its' danger for others will find this method and be tempted. Dr. Clay Sherrod at the Arkansas Sky Observatory has an excellent method and less dangerous than using U.S.P. Cp;;odion.

JohnC; have you had a chance to Dr. Sherrods' cleaning methods?

--------------------
Ron


NS11GPS
Pronto
16" dob
127mm F9 Surplus Shed/Crawmach kit scope
Coronado SolarMax 40 on a Celestron 102 Wide Field



Best of ATM


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