BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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You don't NEED $1000 to get a really good binocular. You just need to aim a little higher.
And the people saying things like this are NOT being elitists, but rather realists.
Cheers,
Bill
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines
It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!
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AppFire
sage
Reged: 11/17/06
Posts: 296
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Quote:
Hmm I geuss this isn't a place for me to talk about binoculars. I have the Barska 20x80s and guess I was lucky and got a good pair that work really well but when I here the rude comments about door stops, book ends, and other things well Its just time for me to move on. I understand that some persons cant afford much more and maybe this is their only option but to mock them is just wrong. I have learned alot in this forum but I,m gonna just gonna stick with the reflector forum from now on. I know it no loss to you because Im a newbie with cheap binoculars. I think its time for me to spend more time observing and less time sitting here listening about my lousy sub $100.00 binoculars. Yes one day I will spend $1000.00 or more on a nice set of binoculars because I have now decided I really like to observe with binoculars and my Cheap binoculars showed me that and that in my eyes makes them worth more than what I paid for them!
Thank you, well put!!! I have also been "visiting" this forum and have really enjoyed it until just a few days ago. I visit alot of forums here on CN's and this is the first one I have seen where alot of people cannot get along. It seems as if you do not have a $1000 pair of binos you are not in the "in crowd" and are labeled an outcast with a cheap good for nothing pair of binos. I for one am enjoying my binos and that is all that matters to me. Good luck to this forum, maybe one day everybody will realize that if we can all get along and support each other instead of bashing everything that is said this place will be almost perfect....almost.
Chris
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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There is MUCH more to a binocular than FMC or BaK4 or . . . It is the assemblage that counts! You can have a racehorse that is muscled, young, smart, with a beautiful coat, and a great track record. Yet, he can’t win the next race if he happens to also be . . . dead!
While I promised two moderators, yesterday, that I would avoid using the “C” word, I am thrilled to see that more and more of you are picking up the torch and standing for the truth. Don’t let it down, ever. If you do, you will be quickly overrun. These kinds of lists are breeding grounds for the instant experts and, if left to the prevailing “fairness doctrine,” you’re going to get nothing but more and more *bleep* from the purveyors of *bleep* (self-bleeped, by the way!)
The TOS has a lot of stipulations that can hinder the flow of accurate, provable, information from sources with resumes a mile long and who have been designated as credible “expert” witnesses in federal law cases, in favor of the words of novices with big mouths, bigger egos and NO rational experience. The logical man must ask, “Is this the best thing for the cause?” I say nay.
Information could flow freely, and much good could be done if new members were required to plainly state their credentials before they start spouting their **BLEEP** or challenging those who have spent the time to get the credentials and are willing to take their time to share it and have the guts to STAND BEHIND EVERY WORD THEY SAY, and that, in itself, being a known truism.
From my vantage point, the bino list is getting closer to a playpen every day. The mature seeker of truth must come to wonder of the value in visiting the site. Is it to gain knowledge, or to help the uninitiated build their unbridled and ill-fed egos. You see, the greatest “ARROGANCE” operates like a submarine, and can, and does, harm many.
But then, what do I know? I’m not supposed to talk about some of the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of binoculars because I might offend someone, who so desperately needs to be offended.
Cheers,
Bill Cook,
The Society of Professional Journalists (and lousy proofreaders)
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William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines
It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< I know it no loss to you because Im a newbie with cheap binoculars. >
Anthony ,
To the contrary , your self confessed status of " newbie " and which binoculars you happen to be using has no bearing on your value to the people who read this forum .
Only yesterday I mentioned on another thread that EVERY member here deserves RESPECT , and your opinions are just as valid and valued as those of anyone else here .
I will be the first to admit to being one of those who has spoken in a derogatory manner about certain very low priced binoculars , but have only ever done so in an attempt to help others avoid literally wasting their money .
However , if the 20 x 80 you bought for very little have made the difference of giving you a strong passion for binocular observing , then that MUST be money WELL spent , and a hope raiser for many others .
I will post another reminder that for more than 30 years I got by with a single set of 10 x 50 binoculars , which , purely on an optical level , by today's standards would be quite rightfully classified as rubbish .
Over the past few days , there have been several members here who for one reason or another , have expressed a desire not to return to this forum .
Having spent a great deal of my precious leisure time trying in my humble way to help make this forum a friendly and helpful place to visit , that saddens me very much .
I'm wondering ,can we not ALL just try a little bit harder to keep this place friendly and peaceful , perhaps by thinking a little more carefully about what we post BEFORE we post ?
Is it likely to upset any other member ?
Is there a more tactful way in which we can make the same points without " getting personal " ?
Do we REALLY have to make a decision NEVER to post to a forum again , just because we may disagree with another member's opinion , or the way in which a point was made ?
To me , these things are not unlike being part of a family living under the same roof -- almost always , compromises have to be made to try to keep EVERYONE reasonable happy .
So PLEASE spare a thought for our hard working moderator , Ed Zarenski , who is not in the best of shape right now to start with .
Peace and kind regards to all
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Anthony:
ABSOLUTELY!!!!!! Kenny is right . . . as always. It is FOR the NEWBIE that we get our necks in a bow to start with! You have a right to learn and grow with ALL of us. Yet, there are those afoot who would have each newbie believe that their opinions are tantamount to fact.
Those who have been down the road just want to sweep some of the BUMPS out of the way. And if you can trust me, there are PLENTY of BUMPS to deter you.
Have a great weekend, and by all means stay with us!!
Cheers,
Bill
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mark22c
sage
Reged: 08/12/07
Posts: 343
Loc: cornwall UK
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i'd like to add im not a binocular "snobb" in fact im the opposite, if you look at the bins i own right now i have two pairs that are good and they cost me (for the pair) £30 uk they are old japanese and very high quality opticaly and machanicaly, they dont have modern "multi coatings" or bak 4 glass but are still every bit as good as bins costing 15x what i paid for them. im not loaded with cash but i refuse to pay any price for rubish.
$69 would buy me two or maybe three pairs of top quality bins with a little patients and leg work... money doesnt come into it, im try to help some people out here and save em there cash. the complete opposit to what you think i am doing
kind regards mark... sorry
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opticron "imagic" BGA SE 8x42 roof's
10x42 roof's
meade/bresser (lidl) 10x50 porro's
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arowana
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 2905
Loc: Pleasant View,Tennessee
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Quote:
So PLEASE spare a thought for our hard working moderator , Ed Zarenski , who is not in the best of shape right now to start with .
Quote:
Oh my word. These are absolutely the WORST qualities you would ever want in an optical instrument housing. And NO, YOU DID NOT COLLIMATE YOUR BINOCULAR. You twisted it until you could see out of it. Frankly, a good quality, even a fair quality instrument, would never provide the ability to do such a thing.
This is one more testament from an owner that makes me want to SCREAM OUT LOUD, stop buying this *BLEEP*, stay away from this junk, stop recommending this garbage, stop, stop, stop.
edz
O' I think EdZ is feeling fine. 
CS's
Joey
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CPC 1100
Earthwin Binoviewer with Dielectric P/F Switch
Matched Pair of 24 Pan's
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Actually, he's showing more spunk than I've seen him use before! 'Cept, of course, when he's beating me!! 
Cheers,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines
It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!
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mark22c
sage
Reged: 08/12/07
Posts: 343
Loc: cornwall UK
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i think things get a little more heated here sometimes because of the way bins work ie you have two telescopes to alighn as a pose to one and it seems to be the single biggest problem with lower priced bins these days with the influx and flooding of the market with some really awfull products at some ridiculas prices that make really big clames. some of these bins are quite literally being thrown out of factories in china and by the looks of it its more a case of no collimation instead of miss collimation.
i've stopped buying modern bins that i could afford and have instead turned to older and imho better until i can afford something high quality and that will cost maybe 10x the price of these 20x80's... but i can wait and cost is forgoten long before quality
i for one choose to stay in this forum because i get the hard truth from some and im smart enough i think to know who those people are, sometimes the truth upsets
its a cold hard world and there are plenty of people out there peddling rubish because we keep buying it
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opticron "imagic" BGA SE 8x42 roof's
10x42 roof's
meade/bresser (lidl) 10x50 porro's
Edited by mark22c (11/03/07 03:58 PM)
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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These remarks were made by three differnt posters up above.
Quote:
1. but still these are 20x80 FMC binoculars selling for 69 bucks
2. It seems as if you do not have a $1000 pair of binos you are not in the "in crowd" and are labeled an outcast with a cheap good for nothing pair of binos.
3. Information could flow freely, and much good could be done if new members were required to plainly state their credentials
1. I believe that is incorrect. I tested a brand of the exact same model of these binoculars. I tested the Anttlers Optics (D&B Astro?) version called the Skysweeper 20x80. Cost 169$. The only multicoated surfaces in the entire binocular is the objective lens. The prisms are single coated. The eyepieces, all three groups, are single coated. The multicoating on the objective lens is not high quality, it is more reflective than most. It is supposed to be ANTI-reflective. So seeing it posted here as fmc is exactly the type of mis-information this particular forum strives to eliminate.
2. I sure as heck don't know why someone would say this about members of this forum. Most people in this forum don't now nor will they ever own $1000 binoculars. I own 25 pair of binoculars that cost less than $400. 20 of them cost about $200 or less. I certainly don't belong to some sort of elitest club by the equipment I own, but I make it a point to understand and know about the equipment I own. I also make it a point to understand the value of equipment.
3. Well I don't disagree that you need to get smart about the products you own, the products you want to own, and especially if you want to recommend products to others, you need to get smart about what you recommend. However, we don't need to know your credentials. But If you don't know enough to know your product, know the difference between a quality product and a poor product, then don't claim you do. Maybe it's best you listen to other peoples recommendations rather than make recommendations.
When newcomers arrive in the forum they need to know the source that they are getting their information from knows what they are talking about. If everybody comes here acting like they know what they're taking about, then everybody else who's listening has got an awful hard job separating the wheat from the chaff.
I'll apologize if I've offended you. But I will not apologize for repeating that there is a huge difference in quality and not getting quality. You make your own bed. Sleep in it. Spend your money however you like, it's yours. But listen, listen intently, when someone tries to explain to you that you could spend you hard earned money more wisely. Quite a few of the people here spend a great deal of time gathering data that you will never find on some website like binocularsdotcom, the data that you need so that you all will have the right the information to make the right choice. It's here if you want to use it, but no one will make you use it.
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
Edited by EdZ (11/03/07 04:11 PM)
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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And, Anthony,
While I seem like the biggest optical snob on the planet. That is not true, either. While I have owned many of the finest binoculars, I have NEVER bought one at full price—most coming from pawn shops, I do own many binoculars that I would steer others away from—every time! You see, as a professional binocular tech for 37 years, I don’t mind if I have to correct a problem. Do I ? ALMOST NEVER!! I doubt EVER having to collimate ANY of my good binoculars, because I choose to steer away from so much of the junk so freely promoted here on the list by those who do not have the experience that comes with that 37 years as a professional optician. This is not just binocular knowledge; it involves knowledge of the industry—being on a first name basis with some of the people who actually manufacture the instruments for the companies that almost ALL newbies THINK are manufacturers!
So, if I can ever help you in any way, please just send me a direct email. Like Kenny, I’ll be here for you. That is if you do not mind associating with the most hated man in the optics industry.
Cheers,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines
It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!
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arowana
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 2905
Loc: Pleasant View,Tennessee
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Quote:
I believe that is incorrect. I tested a brand of the exact same model of these binoculars. I tested the Anttlers Optics (D&B Astro?) version called the Skysweeper 20x80. Cost 169$. The only multicoated surfaces in the entire binocular is the objective lens. The prisms are single coated. The eyepieces, all three groups, are single coated. The multicoating on the objective lens is not high quality, it is more reflective than most. It is supposed to be ANTI-reflective. So seeing it posted here as fmc is exactly the type of mis-information this particular forum strives to eliminate.
This may be a stupid question,and if it is I am sorry,but in a binocular,is the objective lenses the only part of the optical train that is considered "optics"?
CS's
Joey
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CPC 1100
Earthwin Binoviewer with Dielectric P/F Switch
Matched Pair of 24 Pan's
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
This may be a stupid question,and if it is I am sorry,but in a binocular,is the objective lenses the only part of the optical train that is considered "optics"?
CS's
Joey
no
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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Ed Wrote:
1. I believe that is incorrect. I tested a brand of the exact same model of these binoculars. I tested the Anttlers Optics (D&B Astro?) version called the Skysweeper 20x80. Cost 169$. The only multicoated surfaces in the entire binocular is the objective lens. The prisms are single coated. The eyepieces, all three groups, are single coated. The multicoating on the objective lens is not high quality, it is more reflective than most. It is supposed to be ANTI-reflective. So seeing it posted here as fmc is exactly the type of mis-information this particular forum strives to eliminate."
But Ed, you must remember that in business today being accurate doesn't matter. What matters is what you can get people to BELIEVE is accurate. ANd believe me, fortunes are being made on the principle.
Cheers,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines
It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!
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Wes James
Postmaster
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 5477
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I, too, would like to add that there are many ways to enjoy a hobby. ANY hobby can be as cheap- or expensive as a person chooses it to be.
One of the things this forum serves to do is to help people learn how to get good value for your money. Yes, there are inexpensive binoculars out there that are really good- the Oberwerk Mariner series is one that pops into mind at the moment, and there are bino's that are far more expensive that don't compare to them. So by learning which ones are good value- and which ones aren't, even the new members can benefit.
The past few days there has been some commotion on the forum. This is the internet. It is a gathering of people, and any time you put two people together, you have the potential for conflict, let alone a group of who knows how many. Some people get fired up by the feeling they can stir up a hornets nest. Who knows... but I have been on this forum for some time now, nearly 2 years, and have learned a lot- hopefully made some friends, exchanged a lot of ideas. So I would say to anyone... stick around. Give it a chance. The forum is not always in turmoil, and I hope it does not get stifled and watered-down, or go away due to what conflicts may arise- but grow- and become stronger. In any group, you are going to have people who know what they're talking about- and who don't. In time, you learn who does- and who doesn't. But only in due time, can you do so, and frequently the ones who don't end up either going away- or being pushed away. Hopefully in the process, the good guys don't get pushed away- or lose patience with the group, as these long timers, who really are the experts, are the ones those of us with less experience learn from, grow, and perhaps someday become the ones who are looked up to as well. Give it a chance. I'm willing to bet there are just as many stamp collectors out there who derive a huge amount of pleasure collecting stamps off of envelopes they get in the mail as those with collections that require vaults for safekeeping.
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Wes
Atlantic Beach, FL
Bino’s- Tak's, Fuji's, Nikon's, Canon IS and Garrett 20x110 Signature's,
Some telescopes from Carton & Zeiss 60mm's up through a couple of 8” reflectors… Orion 3.6" O/A- and a wonderful 4.25" Delmarva Schiefspiegler!
Some good friends, made here on C/N.
Oh- several cats and a wonderful wife!
Anyone want a cat???? :-O
"When your work speaks for itself- Don't Interrupt" -Gamble Rogers
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arowana
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 2905
Loc: Pleasant View,Tennessee
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Quote:
Quote:
This may be a stupid question,and if it is I am sorry,but in a binocular,is the objective lenses the only part of the optical train that is considered "optics"?
CS's
Joey
no
So basically, any company that implies that there product has FMC optics, but is only applied to the objectives is placing a false advertisment?
Because the Zhumell add specifies that the "optics are fully multicoated".
CS's
Joey
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CPC 1100
Earthwin Binoviewer with Dielectric P/F Switch
Matched Pair of 24 Pan's
Edited by arowana (11/03/07 04:28 PM)
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Wes James
Postmaster
Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 5477
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Quote:
So, if I can ever help you in any way, please just send me a direct email. Like Kenny, I’ll be here for you. That is if you do not mind associating with the most hated man in the optics industry.
Cheers,
Bill
... Or one of the more respected...
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EdZ
Professor EdZ
Reged: 02/15/02
Posts: 18806
Loc: Cumberland, R I , USA42N71.4W
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This may be a stupid question,and if it is I am sorry,but in a binocular,is the objective lenses the only part of the optical train that is considered "optics"?
CS's
Joey
no
So basically, any company that implies that there product has FMC optics, but is only applied to the objectives is placing a false advertisment?
Because the Zhumell add specifies that the "optics are fully multicoated".
CS's
Joey
Get educated aabout optics for sale in the market. What do you think we spend most of our time in here doing! We get educated and pass that information on to you. Anybody test these binoculars yet to prove otherwise?
edz
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Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21
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arowana
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 2905
Loc: Pleasant View,Tennessee
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The point I was trying to imply is that a company should not specify that a product is one thing when it really is not.
I know you,as well as many others here, know the inside and out of Binoculars.
I was just wondering how they got away with advertising a product such as the Zhumell binoc's with FMC optics when it was only applied to the objectives.
Seems like there should be some kind of regualtion on this type of thing.
I know you should realize your not going to get high dollar quality optics and coatings for $70.00, but implying that they have FMC optics is just wrong if they dont.
CS's
Joey
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CPC 1100
Earthwin Binoviewer with Dielectric P/F Switch
Matched Pair of 24 Pan's
Edited by arowana (11/03/07 04:42 PM)
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BillC
on a new path
Reged: 06/04/04
Posts: 4391
Loc: Lake Stevens, WA, USA
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"So basically, any company that implies that there product has FMC optics, but is only applied to the objectives is placing a false advertisment?
Because the Zhumell add specifies that the "optics are fully multicoated". --JOEY
Joey, Fully Multi-Coated . . . like . . . like . . . "Collimated" . . . (Sorry Ed, I'll repent) is a clinical term and, as the Bible would say "Not open to private interpretation."
FMC MEANS that ALL glass to air surfaces in the system have been mult-coated. Those are the facts in the original context. From that, you can decide for yourself.
Cheers,
Bill
--------------------
William J. Cook, Chief Opticalman, USNR-Ret.
Ophthalmic Tech, Naval Station, Everett, WA
Optical Mechanic, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard
Founder, Amateur Telescope Making Journal
21-year Mgr., Optics Dept., Captain's Nautical Supplies
Optics Mechanic, Ft. Lewis, WA.
Contributing Editor for Numerous Magazines
It's better to be a "has been" than a "never was." But only barely; the pay is about the same!
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