Return to the Cloudy Nights Telescope Reviews home page


Astrophotography and Sketching >> CCD Imaging & Processing

Pages: 1
bill w
Postmaster


Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
On M27 in bicolor new
      #1944946 - 10/29/07 02:47 AM

first bicolor hence the essay title for the ensuing rant.


FS102, SX-AO @.3 sec exposures, CS 9.5 nm HA filter/Baader 8.5 nm OIII filter, SX H9
HA: 10/9/07 17x5 min HFD 4.4 on altair, OIII 10/18/07 14x5 min HFD 3.9 on altair
calibrated, combined color balance, ddp, HP filter in maxim.
then to PS...saturation boost, selective sharpening to the apple core, light stretch and smooting, final combine

tried two different ways of creating RGB from bicolor
HA OIII OIII, and HA HA/OIII OIII (combining ha and oiii 50/50 in green).
the first give nice deep reds and great color at the wedge and outer HA area
while the latter showed nicer contrast at the central HA areas.
i wound up combining the two, leaning more towards the first:
used the first as color and second as luminance
then blended that first in at about 50% in darken mode.
then brought the star color of the second in at about 70%

here are the intermediate steps which i found interesting:
HA OIII OIII:

HA HA/OIII OIII:


here's a polished version of the second:

lastly, here's my RGB image from last year
http://whwastro.homestead.com/files/m27-combined.jpg


anto did a great job showing a variety of ways to combine the data last year:
http://tinyurl.com/2sfwgc
i suppose everyone has to go over it when they first try it. to some this is old hat. others are just starting it like me, so here are my observations:

bicolor techinques HA OIII OIII vs HA HA/OIII OIII
note, m27 is a great object to try this with as there's a g0 (almost g2?) star in the field for color balance.

HA HA/OIII OIII
pros:
-better star color balance?
-emphasizes HA/OIII contrast in areas of high OIII signal, eg, center of apple core
-boosts dim HA areas
cons:
-undersaturated, red stars a bit yellow/orange
-deep reds turn to orange
-misses color contrast in low OIII areas (eg, the wedge, HA periphery)
how to compensate for shortcomings:
-increase saturation
-use the difference between HA and OIII as a mask to further increase saturation
(returning the contrast of the wedge)
-apply the HA OIII OIII version using the HUE or color combine technique in PS
to bring nebula colors to more traditional appearance.

HA OIII OIII
pros:
planetary nebula color comes closer to my RGB image.
great color contrast with deep red in the wedge,i.e., areas with high HA and low OIII.
boosts dim OIII areas
cons:
red stars too red, slightly oversaturated
HA signal in center is overwhelmed by bright OIII signal
and detail/contrast is lost as everything goes to white
(could be corrected with less aggressive stretch).
nebula too green?
how to compensate for shortcomings:
-color blur stars
-layer mask to increase center saturation or
-selective sharpening of red channel in bright center portion or
-less agressive stretch in bright center portion.

i guess all you know this, but visually it's never occured to me that most of the fine detail is red. i've used an oiii filter for m 27 many times, but never tried it with a red. anyone know if a red filter brings out the detail. probably need darker skies than mine to see:(

--------------------
-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dietmar
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 2144
Loc: linz, austria europe
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1944972 - 10/29/07 03:22 AM

hi Bill,

that is a great demonstration of your work-flow!
thanks for sharing this!
I like the "polished" one the most.
what a gorgeous image!

--------------------
clear skies,

Dietmar

www.stargazer-observatory.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
J.P.M
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/14/06
Posts: 3037
Loc: 65"01'N25"47'E
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1944989 - 10/29/07 03:44 AM

Hi Bill,

I have watched your progress with great intrest.
Many thanks, the detailed way you raport is very usefull
to us all.
I like most about the last image.
Very well balanced and so smooth. Star sizes are tight
and "true" nature of the object is well presented.

I'm still waiting, waiting, waiting for the AO unit from SX.

J-P


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
WadeVC
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/02/05
Posts: 2834
Loc: Lodi, California,
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: J.P.M]
      #1945033 - 10/29/07 04:28 AM

That is just great Bill!!!

--------------------


Orion XTi10 f/4.7
Orion XTi8 f/5.9
Meade NGC 70mm f/10
Orion UltraView 10x50 Wide-Angle Binoculars

My Sketch Gallery

My Astronomy Blog


A wise man can see more from the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
novbabies
Postmaster


Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 15678
Loc: Northern Georgia!
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: WadeVC]
      #1945091 - 10/29/07 05:13 AM

Bill, really nice representation of M27 !

--------------------
Good Seeing!

Mark

Orion 12" XTi f/4.9


VERY old Edmund 6" f/8 reflector
Assorted binoculars


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DJMcCrady
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/27/03
Posts: 1692
Loc: Seattle, WA
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: novbabies]
      #1945975 - 10/29/07 02:56 PM

Wow, that looks very natural. Steve Cannistra described this technique at the AIC this year, but didn't come out with anything as RGB-looking as yours. Nice work.

--------------------
++don;
http://starryvistas.net
Tak Sky 90, Tak EM200, STL-4020M


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Zyxlor
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 2335
Loc: In my RV - Anywhere USA
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1946062 - 10/29/07 03:39 PM Attachment (63 downloads)

Great information bill!
I love it when people share so much. Thanks.

As far as the red filter, I was able to get an almost 3D effect with red on this target.
-

Attachment

--------------------
Zyxlor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bill w
Postmaster


Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: Zyxlor]
      #1946216 - 10/29/07 04:49 PM

thanks for all the comments
interesting, i prefer the deep reds to the higher contrast orange version that most seem to like.

Quote:

As far as the red filter, I was able to get an almost 3D effect with red on this target.
-



you're talking visually, right?

--------------------
-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Zyxlor
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 2335
Loc: In my RV - Anywhere USA
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1946223 - 10/29/07 04:52 PM

No.
Did I do something stupid?

--------------------
Zyxlor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bill w
Postmaster


Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: Zyxlor]
      #1946619 - 10/29/07 07:52 PM

Quote:

No.
Did I do something stupid?



lol no
i was just noting that all of the fine detail in m27 is in the red data. i often look at m27 with an oiii filter, but it never occurred to me to use a red filter visually. so i was wondering if anyone had observed that a red filter enhances the detail in m27 visually.

--------------------
-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dietmar
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 2144
Loc: linz, austria europe
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1947646 - 10/30/07 05:33 AM

hi "Z", yours is also very good!

--------------------
clear skies,

Dietmar

www.stargazer-observatory.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
darkforce
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 03/05/07
Posts: 830
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1947786 - 10/30/07 08:23 AM

Hi Bill,

what a great M27 !

Perfect - really !

CS

Immo

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Zyxlor
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/10/05
Posts: 2335
Loc: In my RV - Anywhere USA
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #1948502 - 10/30/07 02:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No.
Did I do something stupid?



lol no
i was just noting that all of the fine detail in m27 is in the red data. i often look at m27 with an oiii filter, but it never occurred to me to use a red filter visually. so i was wondering if anyone had observed that a red filter enhances the detail in m27 visually.




I should have said, "visually, what's visually?"

--------------------
Zyxlor
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ted W
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 06/30/05
Posts: 1162
Loc: 42.13N 71.90W
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: Zyxlor]
      #1948631 - 10/30/07 03:18 PM

That's a beautiful shot Bill, the color is perfect.
I always enjoy your stuff.

--------------------
- Ted

LX200 10" Classic
Takahashi FC-60
Nikon 7x50 and Orion Mini-Giant 15x63 Binos
www.conlinhill.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bill w
Postmaster


Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: Zyxlor]
      #1949864 - 10/31/07 12:45 AM

Quote:



I should have said, "visually, what's visually?"



lol z, go get yourself some binoculars

thanks ted and immo

--------------------
-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dean
Postmaster


Reged: 12/31/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bailey Co Elev 8780 feet
Re: On M27 in bicolor [Re: bill w]
      #1951817 - 10/31/07 08:05 PM

Nice work and nice write Bill.

--------------------
"Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin

deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bill w
Postmaster


Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
follow up: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: Dean]
      #1959651 - 11/04/07 12:45 AM

thanks dean

a bit of follow up
having muddled thru it on my own
i took a look at steve cannistra's latest technique:
http://www.starrywonders.com/bicolortechniquenew.html

here it is (this is not a polished final, but an intermediate):


for reference here are the other two intermediate steps again:
HA OIII OIII


HA HA-OIII OIII


still trying to get a handle on it, but the technique uses screen mode to add the layers on and a multiplication between HA and OIII for the synthetic green layer. this comes out closer to the HA OIII OIII technique.

Pros:
great star color
good color contrast at high HA/low oiii areas like the wedge.
reds look great
seems to be the most "realistic" in terms of stars and general color contrast

cons:
-nebula a bit too blue
-simple attempts to correct by adjusting the green layer turned the HA reds to orange.
-HA signal in center is overwhelmed by bright OIII signal
and detail/contrast is lost as everything goes to white.
but this is probably the most accurate representation.
-doesn't tolerate simple increase in saturation.
-the green histogram is very narrow...

Edited by bill w (11/04/07 01:42 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
nytecam
Postmaster


Reged: 08/20/05
Posts: 9841
Loc: London UK
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: bill w]
      #2235368 - 03/04/08 10:57 AM

great bicolour tutorial thanks

--------------------
Nytecam 51N 0.1W
Meade 30cm LX200+C8+Ha+CaK PSTs+spectrographs
SX M9+Lodestar-C CCDs/Canon 300D DSLR
My Meade astrograph-colour deepsky
My supernova discovery
My dome build/spectroscopes/DSO images/Lodestar colour images & videos




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dan G
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 06/27/06
Posts: 2187
Loc: Minisink, NY, USA
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: nytecam]
      #2236655 - 03/04/08 10:21 PM

bill -

As others have stated thanks for sharing your workflow. I have yet to get into narrowband other than ha and found it very informative. The pictures are sure pretty too!

Dan in NY

--------------------
TV 76, Vixen VC200L, TV NP-127is, Tak FS-60
Astro-Physics 900GTO
ML 8300, Lodestar, ST-402
Tranquility Base Observatory aka "The Shed" by non-tranquil members of the house


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bill w
Postmaster


Reged: 03/26/05
Posts: 10277
Loc: southern california
Re: On M27 in bicolor new [Re: Dan G]
      #2236951 - 03/05/08 01:23 AM

thanks dan and maurice

--------------------
-bill w

nexstar 8 GPS
canon 300D, Toucam Pro II
SXV-H9C, H9, SX Lodestar autoguider, SX-AO, DMK 51
FS 102 (OLV), FS60 CSV, 8" LX200R, Lunt 60/50 double stacked PT B1200, Losmandy G 11, ASA DDM60
http://astro.whwiii.net/
image processing monitor calibrated to just differentiate darkest boxes:


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Extra information
0 registered and 6 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Oldfield, Suk Lee, Charlie Hein, knuklhdastnmr 

Print Thread

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Thread views: 2573

Jump to

CN Forums Home



Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics