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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Wasn't sure where to post (there's no Birding forum?)...
My 11 year old son is massively into birding (takes field trips with friends, sketches, knows latin names(!), etc), and has demonstrated appropriate commitment and care to and of his 10x50 binoculars...
I am convinced (and he is too!) that it is now time to get him a nice spotting scope for Christmas My thoughts would be to mount it on my Vixen Portamount (when its not else-wise occupied), or alternatively on my nice Bogen tripod. I know I'd likely need a adapter vixen plate to use the portamount - but that is no problem.
I want something decent to good; with enough more aperture than his 10x50's to make it worthwhile. I want variable magnification. And I want to spend around $350 or less...
I've found a couple at Orion that are *maybes*, but don't have enough info to know:
1) Orion Acadia 20-60x78mm Zoom Spotting Scope. $269.95. "fully coated". FOV 1.8 to 1.0 degrees, no Eye Relief specified.
2) Orion GrandView 20-60x100mm Spotting scope. $329.95. Multi-coated objective lens. FOV 1.67 to 1.0 degrees. ER is 18 to 15mm.
Of these two, I'm leaning towards the 100mm $329 model.
Any thoughts, experiences on this. Any OTHER ideas of something perhaps better for a little more (or less!) money?
thanks in advance!
Clear Skies
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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~Steph~
Texas Wildflower
Reged: 06/11/05
Posts: 26279
Loc: North Texas
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You might try the Cloudy Days forum down in the "Other" forums listing, I believe that's where a lot of the birders hang out. Darrell/Snorkler will also likely be able to help. 
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Steph
Taking it one day at a time...
I'm in the fight! - Support Liver Disease Awareness
10" RCX400 ~~ 4" TV102 ~~ WO ZS80FD ~~ PST
Serenity Observatory 
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LLD
Lucky so far
Reged: 11/14/05
Posts: 2505
Loc: Ma..
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Hi Dave! I've heard that swift optics out of Dorchester Ma, Has a line of bino's and spotting scope's Might be worth checking out, web page
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Orion xx14i, Meade 60mm Polaris refractor 76mm Bushnell reflector
Meade ETX60-BB,Meade 70MM / USB color camera
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~Steph~
Texas Wildflower
Reged: 06/11/05
Posts: 26279
Loc: North Texas
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By the way, don't forget to check out the birders side of our sponsor, Astronomics, which is Christophers.
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Steph
Taking it one day at a time...
I'm in the fight! - Support Liver Disease Awareness
10" RCX400 ~~ 4" TV102 ~~ WO ZS80FD ~~ PST
Serenity Observatory
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snorkler
Aperture Aficionado
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 10041
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Yes, the Cloudy Days and Microscopes Forum was going to be my suggestion, too. But since the question has been posed here, here are my suggestion, based on 50+ years of birding experience.
When you're birdwatching, chromatic aberration really makes a mess of your views and identifications. I'd shy away from both the Orion Arcadia and Grandview because they're achromats, and the color fringing through achromats is more of a problem when birding than it is when viewing astronomical objects.
Good quality apochromatic spotting scopes include the Pentax PF-65ED and PF-80ED, but they're about $550 and $800, respectively. Another good one is the Kowa TS-664, another $800 scope. And they go up from there, to $2000 Swarovskis and Leicas. Since Bowmoreman's son is the same age I was when I started birding, it's not a stretch to justify the full investment at only $10-15/year of use.
But an extra $200-500 is a pretty big investment. The sleeper in the bunch is the Orion Apex 90, at $230. No CA, extremely sharp views, and the main thing you give up is the zoom eyepiece. Zoom eyepieces are a compromise, anyway. You get wider afovs and sharpness with prime eyepieces.
The 90 Apex's 1250 mm. focal length is a bit long, as a 32 mm. Plössl only gets you down to 39X. For birding, 20-60X is the most useful range. Anything over 60X is pretty much unusable because of atmospheric heat wave distortion.
You can buy a used 50 mm. Celestron Ultima eyepiece, which would get down to a more usable 25X, but the afov is very small, about 40º. The same problem exists with 40 mm. eyepieces, which will give our birder about 30X with a similarly narrow fov. At the other end of the range, a 20 mm. widefield eyepiece will give a stunning 60X view.
That's my recommendation, the Orion Apex 90, with 20, 32, and 40 (or 50) mm. eyepieces. It will fit nicely on a light camera tripod, as it already has the requisite ¼"X20 tripod socket.
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I'm not the lowest of the low, but I am the slowest of the slow. '06 Scion xB. 49.6 mpg avg over 38,000 miles. 177% of '08 EPA
Best flat drive 94.5 mpg for 10.1 mi
Longest tank 1033 km (642 mi) on 10.56 gal = 60.8 mpg
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
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Quote:
2) Orion GrandView 20-60x100mm Spotting scope. $329.95. Multi-coated objective lens. FOV 1.67 to 1.0 degrees. ER is 18 to 15mm.
$329 will almost buy a nice small astroscope like the WO Zenith Star 66SD. This is one of the scopes I use for birding. It is capable of nice wide 4 degree views and still capable of nice views at the high magnifications. It is also capable of a nice closeup focus. The Grandview does not have the ED optics so it is limited in its abilities to provide sharp images.
Darrell has recommended a small MAK. I think the inability to provide the low power widefield views is a serious drawback. At 39x, the field of view is about 1.25 degrees.
I do think this thread belongs in the Cloudy Days forum so I am going to move it. In the mean time, here's a photo of a House Finch I took this morning at one of my feeders. I used an 80mm F/7 Astro-APO.
Jon
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Edited by Jon Isaacs (11/12/07 11:38 AM)
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snorkler
Aperture Aficionado
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 10041
Loc: Bay Area, California
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The WO 66SD would be a nice birding scope, but it is twice the price of the Apex 90, once you add the cost of an Amici prism. I'd definitely give it serious consideration, if the OP can cough up the additional money.
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I'm not the lowest of the low, but I am the slowest of the slow. '06 Scion xB. 49.6 mpg avg over 38,000 miles. 177% of '08 EPA
Best flat drive 94.5 mpg for 10.1 mi
Longest tank 1033 km (642 mi) on 10.56 gal = 60.8 mpg
Edited by snorkler (11/12/07 12:03 PM)
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Wow! thanks Jon and Darrell!... I now have a LOT to think about... My original intent was to have a Net Spend of around $300-400 (or SOOOOO....) for my son's Spotting Scope. I have my wife's logical permission for that range also!
I already have a WO66 (LOL), but thats currently my "fast scope" for AP, not for birding  I am using my STV for my forays into guiding...
And, as part of the Ethos EP rejuggling, I *sold* (apparently unfortunately) my TV 40mm Plossl (which apparently would hadve made a nice Low Power EP) in something like the Orion/Apex Mak spotting scope.
Putting the "thinking" gears on here:
 1: what sort of Diagonal is best for the WO66 for Birding? I presume either of the Williams Optics 45 degree erecting prisms? (the WD-EP2 is $198, but only available pre-order and the WE-EP2(s) is $88). Will either work?
Then given the f/l is only 388mm, I could let my son have/use my 10mm and 25mm plossls (Orion) to get him started and he'd have 36x and 15x to start with...
that would mean I'd be $300 *ahead* of where I thought I'd be...
2: Follow me now! (this is a case of Aperturitis extraordinaire!): I could justify getting myself something ELSE to upgrade my total Refractor chain!!!
Like, say a WO Megrez 110 ED?? (currently $1298 with Rings at WO - making me now effectively *down* $1000 from where I wanted to be)... It is MUCH faster than my Vixen ED100Sf, and also more aperture!... And then sell my Vixen ED100Sf+MoonLite; if I got around a $1000 for that combo (not too unrealistic IMO) - I'd be DEAD EVEN. Even if I got a little less, I'd have a very happy son (WO66) and I'd have more and faster refractor aperture...
I can always use my STV Deluxe with the borg mini tube and FR as my 100mm guide scope (instead of playing with moving the STV camera between the ED100Sf and the WO66, and then my Sphinx would have a LOT less load (no more WO66 + Rings + Plate)...
Is this total madness, or does it have the strange compelling logic I *think* it might have???
Again, though, thanks for the inputs!!!
clear skies
Thoughts?
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
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Quote:
The WO 66SD would be a nice birding scope, but it is twice the price of the Apex 90, once you add the cost of an Amici prism. I'd definitely give it serious consideration, if the OP can cough up the additional money.
I use a stardiagonal for birding. I am so used to the left right reversal that I am momentarily confused by a correct image view. My experience with the Amici prisms is that they are not sharp at higher magnifications so the 90mm Mak with the Amici prism would suffer at the higher magnifications as well.
THe William Optics ZS 66SD with the dielectric diagonal is $398, the Astro-Tech 66ED is $349 without, the dielectric diagonal is $70, it would probably come down to shipping costs and taxes as to which was the best value.
These scopes are essentially identical, both with nice two speed crayfords, sliding dew shields, a case and a mounting foot that is also a vixen dove tail that will fit right into the Portamount. Given that the GranView at $329 was the preferred choice and it required a dovetail, hopefully this would fit in the budget.
These often show up on Astromart for about $300.
Jon
It
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Quote:
Quote:
The WO 66SD would be a nice birding scope, but it is twice the price of the Apex 90, once you add the cost of an Amici prism. I'd definitely give it serious consideration, if the OP can cough up the additional money.
I use a stardiagonal for birding. I am so used to the left right reversal that I am momentarily confused by a correct image view. My experience with the Amici prisms is that they are not sharp at higher magnifications so the 90mm Mak with the Amici prism would suffer at the higher magnifications as well.
THe William Optics ZS 66SD with the dielectric diagonal is $398, the Astro-Tech 66ED is $349 without, the dielectric diagonal is $70, it would probably come down to shipping costs and taxes as to which was the best value.
These scopes are essentially identical, both with nice two speed crayfords, sliding dew shields, a case and a mounting foot that is also a vixen dove tail that will fit right into the Portamount. Given that the GranView at $329 was the preferred choice and it required a dovetail, hopefully this would fit in the budget.
These often show up on Astromart for about $300.
Jon
It
It would indeed fit in the budget, especially if I can make my logic (above) work out (cause if it doesn't - them I'm down one fast OTA for AP!)... the only thing that concerns me is how my son would react to the reverse image (and 90 degree) diagonal issue... though it would save me the price of an Amici...
how do you find the 90 degree (versus 45) affects target acquisition, etc... any "awkward angles" ensue?
Perhaps I should let him "play" with my WO66 with a 90 degree diagonal and see how it "handles" for him...
I won't, however, be giving him the Ethos or 31T5 as birding EPs  It'll hafta be simple Plossls for the foreseeable future!
I *LOVE* the advice I get here on CN! Thanks!
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
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Quote:
how do you find the 90 degree (versus 45) affects target acquisition, etc... any "awkward angles" ensue?
I have no problem with it though I have been doing it for quite a few years. I think there is a bit of a learning curve but it is one of those "don't think too much and just let it happen" kind of things.
I use a 24mm TV Widefield to put the birds in the field of view, that's about a 3.7 degree FoV.
Jon
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snorkler
Aperture Aficionado
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 10041
Loc: Bay Area, California
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It's definitely not intuitive for me to use a star diagonal terrestrially. When a bird moves right in my fov, I want to move the scope right to follow it, not the opposite direction. I do that with binoculars, and I want my scopes to do the same. I don't want to retrain myself to go the opposite direction with scopes than I do with binoculars. So plan on an Amici prism. There are many occasions when I'll follow ducks swimming, or hawks flying, in a scope. I can't imagine how Jon follows moving birds with a star diagonal.
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I'm not the lowest of the low, but I am the slowest of the slow. '06 Scion xB. 49.6 mpg avg over 38,000 miles. 177% of '08 EPA
Best flat drive 94.5 mpg for 10.1 mi
Longest tank 1033 km (642 mi) on 10.56 gal = 60.8 mpg
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Bowmoreman
Clear enough skies
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 9062
Loc: Bolton, MA
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Well, I spent the last hour or so out in the obs, taking OFF the Rings, the WO66, etc... rebalancing the Vixen and the STV eFinder, yada yada...
Brought the WO66 inside, set it up on my Bogen, with a 25mm Plossl (Orion) making about 15.5X... And, wow - it makes a nice little daytime scope...
My son just got home from school, I asked him to "try it out" to see if he felt the L-R reversal was an issue; took him about 10 seconds to figure it out...
He's really quite excited - asked if he could take it outside (instead of through the window) after he gets his homework done...
Soooo... we shall see...
Now to figure out if I:
1) can live w/o the WO66 for any length of time in the observatory!
2) if I want to either replace it with another 66, or maybe an 80, or sell the ED100Sf/MoonLite and replace with Megrez 110, or if want to just re-evaluate even more???
Ah well, at least I can use this for him for now (and didn't have to spend a dime)...
Of course the 2" Dielectric diagonal is serious overkill for birding, I probably should get another WO66 1.25"SCT diagonal instead... it looks kinda strange with a dinky old 1.25" plossl in that big old diagonal!
Thanks for the advice!
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Dave
MI250 SBS mounted: C11Hyperstar,FSQ106ED,TOA130NFB;Lunt60THaB1200FT/DS50
Visual:DM6, XT10i w/ZambutoMirror,RTP
EP: 31T5, Ethos (21,17,13&8),10XW,5XW,3.5XW; Paracorr T1
MallincamColorHyper+,QSI583WS,QHY8
SBIG STV eFinder
Denk II: (2x24Pan,2x10XW)
Gerbings Heated clothes, Wilder Skies Observatory (BYO#90), Speco9"Monitor
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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
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>>I can't imagine how Jon follows moving birds with a star diagonal.
--
I can do it, I am not going to follow a bird 25 feet away but at a reasonable distance. It is in essentially intuitive in that you simply need to forget what logic is telling you and simply move the scope to follow the birds. The first few times I probably made mistakes but after that it becomes easy.
It is like tracking a satelite with a scope, I do it with an Correct Image Finder, a refractor with a Star Diagonal, a Newtonian, all are different but simply require that you move the scope to follow the target.
Jon
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Dave ,
If your son can get used to the reversed images from day one , then purely from a standpoint of optical quality , your decision seems inspired .
However , another factor to consider is that birding and associated activities can often subject scopes to sudden or prolonged bouts of wet weather .
Is that scope WATERPROOF ?
Regards
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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Mark9473
Postmaster
Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
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Well, I have to agree with Jon. After years of using a star diagonal, the only thing an amici prism does for me is make me move the wrong way when the target moves.
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Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet
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snorkler
Aperture Aficionado
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 10041
Loc: Bay Area, California
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Sounds like a win-win situation I'm partial to the Meade f/4 Schmidt-Newtonians for astrophotography. No diffraction spikes, minimal coma, no chromatic aberration, and that fast f/4 astrograph focal ratio.
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I'm not the lowest of the low, but I am the slowest of the slow. '06 Scion xB. 49.6 mpg avg over 38,000 miles. 177% of '08 EPA
Best flat drive 94.5 mpg for 10.1 mi
Longest tank 1033 km (642 mi) on 10.56 gal = 60.8 mpg
Edited by snorkler (11/13/07 01:33 AM)
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RJM
super member
Reged: 03/28/07
Posts: 162
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do you think you should consider waterproof, pentax has a nice 63mm with fixed zoom ep for around $350
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coopman
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 04/23/06
Posts: 2892
Loc: South Louisiana
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I use a C80ED spotting scope for birding and am very happy with it.
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Regards,
Clay
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." Psalms 19:1
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sparrow
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 1002
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"Wasn't sure where to post (there's no Birding forum?)..."
Yes there is.
Go here:
http://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=286
Also if you want to just see what's commercially availiable for birders there no better place than this:
http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?dept=1&type=4&subtype=276&purch=1
It's exactly what you are looking for.
Ask birders what birders use not astro people. It's two very different worlds.
It sounds like your son is well on his way to developing a keen interest in the natural world. Don't burden him with equipment that is inappropriate for what he is doing.
Sparrow
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