helpwanted
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 4266
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
|
|
under light poluted skies, and filtered with a narrow band... what is the smalled appature to view the Veil & North American nebs?
i realize appature rules, and dark skies rule... but my backyard rules for convenience!
thanks,
david
--------------------
xx12i
TV eps
|
LumpyDarkness
sage
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: San Francisco bay area
|
|
8.1" 
Joking aside, I've seen the 52 Cygni section of the Veil in my 10" f/5.7 with an OIII filter from San Jose California. Here's the site:
http://cleardarksky.com/c/SanJoseCAkey.html
but that is usually only on the *best* nights at that location. I don't think I've ever seen the North American from a light polluted (urban) site.
--------------------
Mark Wagner
Adventures In Deep Space
NGC/IC Project
Deep Sky Observing Blog
SF Bay Area Observers - TAC
San Jose Astronomical Association
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
|
|
Quote:
under light poluted skies, and filtered with a narrow band... what is the smalled appature to view the Veil & North American nebs?
i realize appature rules, and dark skies rule... but my backyard rules for convenience!
thanks,
david
I have viewed both in my 100mm f/6 refractor using an OIII filter with some mild light pollution (ZLM 5.5), although they were both fairly marginal. Under dark skies, I have seen both in my 9x50 RACI finderscope (a 2-inch aperture BTW) when I stuck my 2" OIII filter in the finder's front dewcap. Clear skies to you.
--------------------
David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
Achernar
Postmaster
Reged: 02/25/06
Posts: 7805
Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
|
|
A 4 or 6-inch will work if you are not in the middle of a large city, you have a place to avoid glare from the lights and you use an O-III filter. You'll want to shield your eyes while peering through the telescope and let them adjust to the dim light. Also, these nebulae span almost three degrees of sky apiece so you won't be able to see them all at once except in larger binoculars and small, short focus telescopes. An 80mm F/5 "Short Tube" refractor, a 4-inch F/6 refractor or a 4 1/4-inch, F/4 reflector are perfect telescopes for these objects. Larger telescopes are good to inspect individual regions of these fascinating objects. If you take all these steps, the Veil and N. American nebulas can be glimpsed from suburban areas if your skies are clear and the moisture level in the atmosphere low. They will not be nearly as impressive as they would be from a good site, so I would plan to make the effort to see them from a dark sky next year.
Taras
--------------------
15-inch F/4.5 Homebuilt truss-tube Dob with Sky Commander digital setting circles.
10-inch F/4.5 Discovery Dob with JMI digital setting circles.
6-inch F/8 Homebuilt Dob
24, 18, 14, 11, 8.8, 6.7, 4.7mm ES 82 degree eyepieces.
21, 13, 8, 5 and 3.5mm Orion Stratus eyepieces.
Two Televue T-1 Paracorrs with tunable tops
Orion and Lumincon Deepsky, Ultrablock, O-III and H-beta nebula filters.
Three curious and needful cats
|
Mr. Bill
Postmaster
Reged: 02/09/05
Posts: 5219
Loc: Northeastern Cal
|
|
Try covering your head with a towel or black cloth+ OIII or UHC filter at low power (less than 50X). You should be able to see both with a little practice.
Your 8 inch f/6 should work fine.....
--------------------
The night sky is the palette....
My optics are the brushes....
The Milky Way is the masterpiece
Member IDA
|
Tony Flanders
Postmaster
Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 8212
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
|
|
Quote:
under light poluted skies, and filtered with a narrow band... what is the smalled appature to view the Veil & North American nebs?
As a Zen Buddhist would say, you're asking the wrong question.
You should be asking "what's the worst level of light pollution where the Veil and North America Nebulae are visible?"
Normally, aperture makes a major difference to an object's visibility, but the North America is an exception to that rule. If you can't see it in a small scope (3-inch, say), then you're not likely to be able to see it in a 12-inch scope either.
Aperture helps a little more with the Veil, but even there, aperture is vastly less useful than dark skies.
I can see the brighter arc of the Veil with an O-III filter from Arlington, MA. That's an inner suburb measuring around mag 18.3 per square arcsecond with an SQM. The Cygnus Star Cloud is just barely visible there, and M31 is modestly easy naked-eye. All 7 stars of the Little Dipper visible when it's high in the sky.
At my home in Cambridge, MA, with only slightly worse light pollution (sky about 50% brighter), I've never been able to see the Veil at all.
From the outer suburbs (SQM = 19.0 or better), both arcs of the Veil are pretty easy with an O-III filter, but they're still pretty tough without a filter.
The North America Nebula is way more sensitive to light pollution than the Veil.
--------------------
Tony Flanders
First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.
|
BlueRidge
sage
Reged: 01/12/07
Posts: 288
Loc: Blue Ridge Mtns., VA
|
|
My experience is in line with Tony's. From my dark sky in VA, I see the NA and Pelican nebulas just fine in my 15 x 70 Skymasters (IMHO, these objects are easier to see with a wide FOV like binos).
In SE PA, the light pollution washes out the sky and all contrast is lost. I can look right at them and recognize the surrounding star patterns, but they ain't there!
I also agree about the Veil. Hitting it with aperture appears to help a little bit.
--------------------
Celestron Skymaster 15 x 70's, Miyauchi BR-141's
Celestron Nexstar 11 GPS, SkyAlign upgrade
Celestron 9.25 XLT OTA, CG-5 Mount
Stellarvue SV90TBV
Denk II Binoviewers/#S2 Power/Filterswitch
21mm and 14mm Denk EPs
|
Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 4018
Loc: Prescott, AZ
|
|
Well I don't use filters, but the North American is seen reliably with my 80mm APO from Presott. Some, but not much, light pollution. I have not tried the Veil with this scope.
Assuming you know the basics of star hopping, the key to getting the NA framed properly is the correct starting point. Use 62 Cygni, located about where the Catalina Islands would be. (About 4 to 4-1/2 degrees east of Deneb.)Why 62 Cygni? It is relatively bright, easily found, and most importantly it is distinctively orange. Almost everything else nearby is blue or blue/white. Makes a great landmark. From there move back west to pick up the dark nebula that make up the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic ocean.
If that is not working, instead of using the dark areas to pick up the outline, use stars that outline the edge. About 2/3 degree west of 62 is a bright star I call Las Vegas. Go another 2/3 degree west to find a quartet of stars: Chicago, New York, Houston, and Miami. If you are not sure you have the correct stars, the is a very easy way to identify Miami. There is a small asterism I call Orion Minor, which is in the approximate position of the Bahamas. It looks just like the brightest stars of Orion, but upside down. Miami is in the "Rigel" position.
--------------------
Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
|
helpwanted
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/04/07
Posts: 4266
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
|
|
Thanks Jeff for the info to find it!!
--------------------
xx12i
TV eps
|
starramus
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 1124
|
|
The dark sky will not travel to you. You must travel to the dark sky. These objects are visible in 50mm binoculars under dark enough skies. Never saw them from my urban home. Only saw them upon purchasing a second rural home.
Regards and clear skies,
|
loo27
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/04
Posts: 536
Loc: GA
|
|
in general, you will not see them. I saw the Veil for the first time after 4 yrs of looking for it at a dark site. I've been at dark sites, and still not seen the veil or NA nebula. Try putting a O-III over one of your eyes, on a good night you may have a chance.
--------------------
Cliff
50mm Binoculars
102mm NexStar GT Refractor
Tomlin Industries 6" f/6 Newtonian
C9.25 XLT + CG-5GT
|
John K
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 1649
Loc: Vernon BC Canada
|
|
Just 5km north of a 30,000 people town I have seen the Veil in my 76mm scope with a 32mm eyepice and a O-III filter.But the key word here is "seen", just noticed ,small ,contrast difference compaired to the sky.
--------------------
RASC Member (Okanagan)
Home built 15"f5 Obsession clone
8"f6 Antares Dob
Celestron Skymaster 15x70
Howie Glatter laser pointer/Blug
Lumicon 2"OIII 2"UHC
Eyepieces 31mm Nagler,21mm Ethos,13mm Ethos,10mm Ethos,6mm Delos,2X Barlow, Antares 1.6X Barlow,TV Paracorr Type1
|
Nick Lloyd
He asked for it
Reged: 10/24/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: cincinnati
|
|
Maybe "What is the minimum limiting magnitude that is needed to observed these nebulae?" would be a more appropriate question.
My answer... with the OIII or Ultrablock filter... mag 5 skies.
--------------------
"The best scope is the one you use." -rcg
|
Downward Bound
Adrenaline Junkie
Reged: 03/29/06
Posts: 3106
Loc: Seattle
|
|
I can see the Veil in my 8" using an OIII from my home is urban Seattle. Not the best view natually but it's there. You should try a number of EPs to see what gives you the best balance between a wide FOV and background contrast.
--------------------
Bill
'flectors: R200SS, Webster/Kennedy 22" f/3.6
'fractors: PST, AT-66, TV-85, FS-102, APM/TMB-152
'bins: 15x63, 10x50, 10x52, 22x85
410+028B, Sphinx, Telepod, EZ Touch, G-11
|
johnfdean
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/04/06
Posts: 1104
Loc: southern tip of Illinois
|
|
I think Scott Houston commented on seeing the veil with a filter and no scope.
--------------------
Celestron C6 f/5 by Vixen with Polaris GEM
14" Tscope dob f/4.7 with Argo Navis
80mm Nighthawk on Eq 2
Celestron C-4 f/10
|
Jeff Morgan
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 4018
Loc: Prescott, AZ
|
|
Quote:
I think Scott Houston commented on seeing the veil with a filter and no scope.
IIRC, he also saw the California Nebula and Barnards Loop this way.
--------------------
Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making
|
David Knisely
Postmaster
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 13646
Loc: southeastern Nebraska
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I think Scott Houston commented on seeing the veil with a filter and no scope.
IIRC, he also saw the California Nebula and Barnards Loop this way.
Well, it is best to use the H-Beta filter for this little trick, although I have seen Barnard's Loop with the UHC filter held up to my eye. Clear skies to you.
--------------------
David W. Knisely . . . . . . "If you aren't having fun in this hobby, you aren't doing it right."
Hyde Memorial Observatory
http://www.hydeobservatory.info
Prairie Astronomy Club
http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
|
LumpyDarkness
sage
Reged: 08/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: San Francisco bay area
|
|
Quote:
I think Scott Houston commented on seeing the veil with a filter and no scope.
IIRC, at Willow Springs earlier this year, the owner of the property was using a shoebox with two filters taped onto "eye holes" to look at big dim nebulae. I'd have to research, but he may have been looking either at the Veil, Barnard's Loop, or the California Neubla.
The best view I've ever had of the Veil was actually in a 70mm ETX - the whole enchilada was there.... :-)
--------------------
Mark Wagner
Adventures In Deep Space
NGC/IC Project
Deep Sky Observing Blog
SF Bay Area Observers - TAC
San Jose Astronomical Association
|
loo27
professor emeritus
Reged: 09/30/04
Posts: 536
Loc: GA
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I think Scott Houston commented on seeing the veil with a filter and no scope.
IIRC, at Willow Springs earlier this year, the owner of the property was using a shoebox with two filters taped onto "eye holes" to look at big dim nebulae. I'd have to research, but he may have been looking either at the Veil, Barnard's Loop, or the California Neubla.
The best view I've ever had of the Veil was actually in a 70mm ETX - the whole enchilada was there.... :-)
Cool! Now to find a shoebox.
--------------------
Cliff
50mm Binoculars
102mm NexStar GT Refractor
Tomlin Industries 6" f/6 Newtonian
C9.25 XLT + CG-5GT
|
ngc6352
member
Reged: 12/04/07
Posts: 42
Loc: Boise, Idaho
|
|
Under ~mag 5.5+ skies, both the Veil and the NA Nebula
are obvious with a UHC-class filter in 4" class instruments
at low power/wide field (achro or APO). I have seen it
in a friend's TV76 with UHC under the same conditions.
I've never tried from my back yard (NELM 4 -4.5). I'll have
to check. Thanks for the challenge - next clear night in Boise.
Steve Bell
--------------------
Visual observer; 43.6N
TV102/Orion SVP, C9.25/ASGT, 14" f/4.5 Dob, 6" f/5 home brew alt-az Newt (G & G), 15 X 70 GO binoculars; mostly TV EPs
Some ATM experience; ALCOR for Boise club
AL Master Observer
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
[Re: