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skyler
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G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload
      #3238402 - 07/25/09 08:49 PM

Do any users of these two mounts have an idea that is the max reasonable payload for a G11 and an EM200? I own the 200 so I have a good idea there but I don't want to taint any comparisons.

Let me know what you think and why? Any and all welcome to respond.

Thanks !
S


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LLEEGE
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: skyler]
      #3238440 - 07/25/09 09:29 PM

They're pretty close. The Tak has s slight edge. It's rated at 40lbs for AP, the G11 is rated at 60 for visual or about 50% for AP.

--------------------
A wise man once said........nothing.

A good mount
A few good OTA's
A few good EP's
A decent camera
Crappy skies


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skyler
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3238752 - 07/26/09 01:27 AM

I asked this question since I was beginning wonder if they are just too close to call. Will wait to see what the consensus is before I comment again.

S


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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories


Reged: 07/20/07
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3238818 - 07/26/09 03:06 AM

According to Losmandy, the 60 lbs is a photo limit for the G-11. I know people that use that much and more. I use about 30 lbs myself, but it would handle more that I am certain.
Blueman

--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
1966 Unitron 4" Model 152 EQ
Tec 140
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
FLI ML8300 and CFW-2-7 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 RGBL 2" filters
Baader 2" Narrow Band Filters
Borg 50mm Guide Scope/ATIK Titan Guide Camera
AstroPhysics AP900
Losmandy GM-8 Gemini


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johnnyha
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: blueman]
      #3238861 - 07/26/09 04:26 AM

My EM200 easily imaged with a TOA130 plus accessories which is pushing 30 lbs., and that much again in counterweights for over 60 lbs total. That is a very comfortable weight for the Tak when everything is balanced properly, however it feels like it is on the limit of PEAK performance. I don't know how the G11 does in comparison but it LOOKS like it might handle a bit more.

--------------------
Johnny

FS152
15" Obsession Classic w/ 14.5" f/4.65 Zambuto


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Luigi
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: johnnyha]
      #3238944 - 07/26/09 07:18 AM

You might also consider things that contribute to stability outside of the mount, like the dovetail system and tripod. Having owned a G11 for 10+ years I can say its dovetail and saddle are very stout and its tripod is extremely stable. I don't know how these compare with the Tak mount. Of course if you're going to put the mount on a permanent pier, the tripod is irrelevant.

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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CHASLX200
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Reged: 09/29/07
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: Luigi]
      #3239039 - 07/26/09 08:49 AM

I was not that impressed with my older non GO-TO EM-200 with my TAK FS128. Seemed the mount had the shakes at higher powers.

Chas


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Gord
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: CHASLX200]
      #3239237 - 07/26/09 11:25 AM

Although it's only a guideline, I've heard it said to never put more on it than it weighs itself. I believe this was a reference to photographic work. In that case, they are pretty similar, but I think the G11 has a little more mass (few pounds?).

Does cast vs. machined billet make a difference? I'm under the impression that billet's (usually forged) are always stronger. I know that is the case for performance automobile wheels.

And as Luigi said, the dovetail and tripod factor in as well.

Clear skies,

-Gord

--------------------
Gord
  • C14 EdgeHD
  • C10N/Normand Fullum/MoonLite/ProtoStar/Antares
  • C8 EdgeHD
  • Tasco 11TR/Normand Fullum/JMI/ProtoStar
  • IStar 6" F10/Astro-Physics hardware
  • C102 achro, 80ED, Astro-Physics 60/700
  • Losmandy G11 DSC, EQ6/Losmandy, Vixen GP-DX, CG5a, UniStar Lite
  • Burgess 15x70, Nikon 10x50
  • PST, StarBlast, Apex 102, MallinCam's, and some EP's with green lettering
... and still the best wife I could wish for!


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more


Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: Gord]
      #3239314 - 07/26/09 12:13 PM

Quote:

Does cast vs. machined billet make a difference? I'm under the impression that billet's (usually forged) are always stronger. I know that is the case for performance automobile wheels.




I shouldn't think so. The usable imaging load will be limited by other factors long before structural failure becomes an issue. Regarding saddles - the EM-200 would have at least a Losmandy saddle (they offer one drilled for the Tak mount) but they are usually equipped with superior units from BT or the like.

The Losmandy tripod is more encouraging but far less portable than the Tak. I don't image in the field so that one's not an issue for me; I just want a portable tripod to take out for occasional field use.

I figure that they both top out at about 40 pounds for undegraded imaging performance but I'd be willing to add quite a bit to either one for visual use.

--------------------
John C

Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery

AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way


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Luigi
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #3239515 - 07/26/09 02:14 PM

>>>The Losmandy tripod is ... far less portable than the Tak<<<

I have no experience with the Tak tripod but didn't fine the portability of the G11 tripod to be an issue. I'd either transport it assemble in the back of my SUV or pickup or take the three legs off the central pier and stick them in the trunk of my car. It is nearly as solid as a permanent pier and for me that outweighed the relative inconvenience... and that was for strictly visual use with a C11. YMMV

--------------------
17.5" f/5 Dob. IM-715 MCT. 120ED. Lunt 60mm Ha.
Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories


Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 4303
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: Luigi]
      #3239777 - 07/26/09 04:36 PM

Indeed, the G-11 tripod is like a portable pier compared to many tripods. It breaks down about as fast as you can fold a tripod and only takes a little room when broken down.
1/4" thick aluminum tubes make for very little vibration.
Blueman

--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
1966 Unitron 4" Model 152 EQ
Tec 140
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
FLI ML8300 and CFW-2-7 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 RGBL 2" filters
Baader 2" Narrow Band Filters
Borg 50mm Guide Scope/ATIK Titan Guide Camera
AstroPhysics AP900
Losmandy GM-8 Gemini


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rsbfoto
sage


Reged: 06/10/06
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3239995 - 07/26/09 06:34 PM

Quote:

They're pretty close. The Tak has s slight edge. It's rated at 40lbs for AP, the G11 is rated at 60 for visual or about 50% for AP.




Hi,

Quote:

The Tak has s slight edge. It's rated at 40lbs for AP




I did not find that here in this spec

here in this spec in the Land Sea & Sky website Official Takahashi importer for USA

And here Takahashi Europe states 18kg load capacity which are about ~40 pounds ¿? but also write

" The EM-200 is a German equatorial mounting providing a stable support for any telescope up to 15 kg without the accessories (load limits 18kg, except counterweight)."

Takahashi Europe

Interesting and I am still asking myself from which date does this urban myth come up as well as how long those myths persist ...

Here is an example of a Losmangy G11 loaded with 66 pounds equipment as well as 66 pounds of counterweights can do good imaging at 3000mm focal length (Mewlon 250S guided with a FS-78)

The next example is a stack of 14 subexposures of 600 seconds each

Arp 29 Original and Arp 29 negative

The EM200 costs about US $ 6,000.00 (NO tripod) and the Losmandy G11 costs about US $ 3,000.00 (NO tripod) plus maybe US $ 1,000.00 for some upgrade pieces, still leaves you a spare of US 2,000.00 for a nice scope

Just my 2 cents about the " 50% AstroPhotography " rule ...

--------------------
regards Rainer


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jason_milani
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: rsbfoto]
      #3240512 - 07/26/09 11:58 PM

The Orion Atlas is an EM200 clone. Not saying that it is as good as an EM200 just that it is similar in size and design. The Losmandy G11 is in a class above that size. I have a CGE (similar in size/capacity to the G11) and an Atlas and the CGE is a beefier mount. I know others here will say the Atlas is comparable to the CGE/ G11 mounts but they are full of you know what. I have the CGE and Atlas set up side by side right now and if i could find my card reader to post pics i would but i just moved and i can't locate it at the moment.
I'm not knocking any of them just telling it like it is.
Oh, and for those who say that the LXD750 is capable of more payload han the CGE (some nice fellow on astromart has stated that on his recent ad) you are full of cow poopies. The counterweight shaft alone on the LXD prevents it from competing. I am not just speculating - i've owned two LXD750's and three CGE's.

I guess i got off topic a little bit.....sorry

--------------------
Celestron 8" Edge HD
Celestron C-6
Celestron C-
Hypertuned CGEM
Bogen 3046/Unistar light
Mallincam Hyper Color Plus
Modded Canon 450D/ Canon EF200mm F/2.8





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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more


Reged: 04/30/03
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: jason_milani]
      #3240526 - 07/27/09 12:09 AM

Quote:

The Orion Atlas is an EM200 clone. Not saying that it is as good as an EM200 just that it is similar in size and design. The Losmandy G11 is in a class above that size. I have a CGE (similar in size/capacity to the G11) and an Atlas and the CGE is a beefier mount.




Hi, Jason!

No argument there - but having owned both the Atlas and the EM-200 I can report that the Tak is also a beefier mount than the Atlas. The similarities are only skin deep.

Of course, I'm one of those who feels the LXD750 can image with a heavier load than any of the above so we have a fundamental difference of opinion anyway!

--------------------
John C

Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery

AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way


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LLEEGE
True Blue


Reged: 03/03/05
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: rsbfoto]
      #3240886 - 07/27/09 09:40 AM

Quote:


Just my 2 cents about the " 50% AstroPhotography " rule ...


Fact or fiction, I don't know. Many say the high end manufacturers rate their mounts for photographic loads and the low/mid range manufacturers rate their mounts for a maximum load. (Excluding CW's)
Losmandy states the "Instrument capacity" of the G-11 at 60lbs. Yet for the HGM Titan, they state "Photographic capacity". I don't know where the source of the ratings came to be about the 50% rule of thumb. I had a G-11 and a TEC160 mounted and to me, the mount seemed to be at it's limit. In fact, I didn't feel comfortable putting that much weight on it. Call me paranoid. I'm not saying people don't image with G-11's with more then the rule of thumb. Lot's of folks do. But I'm sure they put a lot more effort into making sure everything is set up just right.

--------------------
A wise man once said........nothing.

A good mount
A few good OTA's
A few good EP's
A decent camera
Crappy skies


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jason_milani
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Reged: 09/03/04
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #3241004 - 07/27/09 11:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The Orion Atlas is an EM200 clone. Not saying that it is as good as an EM200 just that it is similar in size and design. The Losmandy G11 is in a class above that size. I have a CGE (similar in size/capacity to the G11) and an Atlas and the CGE is a beefier mount.




Hi, Jason!

No argument there - but having owned both the Atlas and the EM-200 I can report that the Tak is also a beefier mount than the Atlas. The similarities are only skin deep.

Of course, I'm one of those who feels the LXD750 can image with a heavier load than any of the above so we have a fundamental difference of opinion anyway!




Hi John. Don't mind me, i was just rambling. (get a few late night cocktails in me and that's what happens ) I did have a bad experience with an LXD750 so i guess i'm biased. You've got waay more imaging experience than i do so i'll take your word for it.

--------------------
Celestron 8" Edge HD
Celestron C-6
Celestron C-
Hypertuned CGEM
Bogen 3046/Unistar light
Mallincam Hyper Color Plus
Modded Canon 450D/ Canon EF200mm F/2.8





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skyler
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Reged: 08/16/06
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: rsbfoto]
      #3241163 - 07/27/09 12:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

They're pretty close. The Tak has s slight edge. It's rated at 40lbs for AP, the G11 is rated at 60 for visual or about 50% for AP.




Hi,

Quote:

The Tak has s slight edge. It's rated at 40lbs for AP




I did not find that here in this spec

here in this spec in the Land Sea & Sky website Official Takahashi importer for USA

And here Takahashi Europe states 18kg load capacity which are about ~40 pounds ¿? but also write

" The EM-200 is a German equatorial mounting providing a stable support for any telescope up to 15 kg without the accessories (load limits 18kg, except counterweight)."

Takahashi Europe

Interesting and I am still asking myself from which date does this urban myth come up as well as how long those myths persist ...

Here is an example of a Losmangy G11 loaded with 66 pounds equipment as well as 66 pounds of counterweights can do good imaging at 3000mm focal length (Mewlon 250S guided with a FS-78)

The next example is a stack of 14 subexposures of 600 seconds each

Arp 29 Original and Arp 29 negative

The EM200 costs about US $ 6,000.00 (NO tripod) and the Losmandy G11 costs about US $ 3,000.00 (NO tripod) plus maybe US $ 1,000.00 for some upgrade pieces, still leaves you a spare of US 2,000.00 for a nice scope

Just my 2 cents about the " 50% AstroPhotography " rule ...





Spoke to Losmandy today and they are confirming the "imaging" load to be 60 lbs. He noted that the max payload is at 75. But when we spoke about what is "ideal" for imaging, he stepped that down to 45-50 lbs to be a comfortable imaging range.

So, I gather that it can carry a bit more and some have probably pushed the limit of the scope and had very good results. I feel it may vary but it is capable.

Will probably need to ask the same question to Art C. at Tak. Am. to see what he has to say.


S


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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories


Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 4303
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: LLEEGE]
      #3241284 - 07/27/09 01:51 PM

Hi,
The TEC160 was not so much the weight, but the length of the scope that makes it more difficult to support. Put a shorter scope with less moment arm and then the load can be increased.
A longer scope that weights 25-30 lbs mounted, will definitely test many mounts. Then maybe an AP1200 or AP900 would be a better choice or even the MI250?
Blueman

--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
1966 Unitron 4" Model 152 EQ
Tec 140
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
FLI ML8300 and CFW-2-7 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 RGBL 2" filters
Baader 2" Narrow Band Filters
Borg 50mm Guide Scope/ATIK Titan Guide Camera
AstroPhysics AP900
Losmandy GM-8 Gemini


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blueman
Vendor Blue Sky Accessories


Reged: 07/20/07
Posts: 4303
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Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: skyler]
      #3241290 - 07/27/09 01:53 PM

Hi Skler,
Yeah, I would agree with that, 45-50 lbs would be a more comfortable weight with the 60 lbs being the absolute limit with the right setup, but would probably be prone to shakes in any wind or other stimulus.
Blueman

--------------------
14.5" Starmaster with ServoCat and Argo Navis
1966 Unitron 4" Model 152 EQ
Tec 140
TV NP101 f/5.4 APO Telvue .8 Focal Reducer
FLI ML8300 and CFW-2-7 filter wheel
Astrodon Gen2 RGBL 2" filters
Baader 2" Narrow Band Filters
Borg 50mm Guide Scope/ATIK Titan Guide Camera
AstroPhysics AP900
Losmandy GM-8 Gemini


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more


Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
Re: G11 vs EM200 Imaging Payload new [Re: jason_milani]
      #3241320 - 07/27/09 02:09 PM

Quote:

I did have a bad experience with an LXD750 so i guess i'm biased. You've got waay more imaging experience than i do so i'll take your word for it.




It's just my opinion. I suspect that, of all of my opinions, that's the one with which the most folks disagree!

--------------------
John C

Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery

AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way


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