JSnuff1
sage
Reged: 12/29/04
Posts: 290
Loc: NY
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Ive read a few post on autoguiding but none of them provied a clear understanding of of this technique. From what I understand you hook up a webcam to your finder scope center a star near your image and have the software control and guide your scope. Does this not eliminate the need for a good mount? I mean if that guide star remaines centered then you dont need mounts with periodic error correcting etc right?
Ive also read about how you need real expensive autoguiders to do a good job...what do these expensive ones do that the meade LPI hooked up to your finder couldnt do. The LPI has autoguider capabilities so as long as it can keep your scope centred on that star why do you need anything else?
-------------------- William Optics 110 FLT (TEC version)
LX800 Mount
Canon 60Da
JGS Observatory Website
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Suk Lee
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4534
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
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You still need a good mount because if the gears are sloppy, or the bearings aren't precise, the mount will move erratically, making random jumps that the autoguiding software can't correct. Autoguiding is a feedback system, so if the mount makes large unexpected movements, there'll still be guiding errors.
Expensive autoguiders have more sensitivity. A webcam is limited in the brightness of stars it can pick up. More expensive autoguiders can guide on dimmer stars.
Cheers, Suk
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Rushwind
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2137
Loc: Newark, CA
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Let's get the nuts-and-bolts definition of autoguiding out there, so that everyone is clear on what's going on.
You want to take a photograph of the stars with camera 1 and lens 1.
First, you need an equatorial mount, which has one axis that points at Polaris (or, more precisely, at the North Celestial Pole). An alt-az mount, because it must track in both axes to keep an object centered, will induce field rotation in your photograph. So, you need an EQ mount, which only needs to track in one axis, and it needs to be pointed precisely at the NCP, which is for another discussion (but keep the words "drift alignment" bouncing around in your head).
So, in order to make sure that your object stays centered, you realize that if you had lens 2 (attached to lens 1 in some way) and something (or someone) looking through lens 2 at a bright (enough) star that's *close* to your object, you could keep that star centered (in lens 2), and that would mean that your object would stay centered (in lens 1). You could do this yourself, by looking through a reticle eyepiece, and adjusting the mount whenever the star drifted. This is a totally viable option, and also the most boring task I have ever set upon. Enter camera 2, which we'll call the autoguider.
The autoguider's whole job is to sit there, looking through lens 2 at the bright (enough) star, and whenever it detects movement, it sends adjustment commands to the mount to recenter the star. Perfection, b33r, pr$fit, right?
Well, not quite so fast. How do we know that the autoguider's doing a "good enough" job? What are the criteria upon which we will judge this "autoguider" of which you speak? Well, let's put together a crib sheet.
First, let's all agree that a "failure product" of a photograph is "stars which are trailed instead of being points". A "success product" is a photograph with "stars which are points".
So, in order to produce success: 1) The autoguider must be able to find a bright (enough) star that's close (enough) to the object being photographed (or else the star might be moving at a different speed than the object, and badness occurs). 2) The autoguider must see the star begin to drift *before* camera 1 sees it. 3) The mount must be able to respond quickly enough to an autoguider's request for correction that the star is recentered before camera 1 sees it. 4) It would be nice (although not strictly necessary) for the autoguider to have some sort of alarm in case it has some sort of problem (like losing the guide star).
Note that 1) is directly related to the sensitivity of camera 2 itself; 2) is directly related to the focal length of lens 2 (or, rather, the magnification of camera 1/lens 1 compared to the magnification of camera 2/lens 2, with the second pair needing to be necessarily larger than the first); 3) is directly related to the accuracy of the mount; and 4) is directly related to the autoguiding software.
All of these components need to work together properly in order to produce a "success product". If any one of the criteria fails, it is unlikely that a "success product" will result.
So, you need to guide with a camera that is sensitive enough to find a star nearby. The camera needs to be guiding at a higher magnification than the magnification at which you are imaging. The mount needs to be accurate enough (and only require guiding that is smooth enough) that the autoguider can keep up. Finally, the autoguider software should alert you if the guide star is lost, so that you can take action.
So, "a webcam" through "a finder" on "any old mount" *could* work, as long as it satisfied all the criteria. But the better the mount, the more mated the guide lens is to the imaging lens (and the cameras to their lenses and each other), and the more sensitive, accurate, and user friendly the autoguider you use, the better success you are going to have (or at least the better chance of repeatable success).
I hope this helps.
Jimbo
-------------------- Order of the Unblinking Eye
NJP 300D SSAG 8"f/5 (Rig)
Guidescope? What guidescope?
I used to shoot Nikon DSLR.
Before that, I shot film.
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southmike
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 11/22/04
Posts: 2844
Loc: Fayetteville, NC
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might point out that a wedge or re-rotator will work as well for some forked mounts.
-------------------- group scope pic
my refractors
LX200 10"-St120
LX200 8" f6.3-Orion 80ed
LX200 8" f10-Orion 90 Mak setup pic
Meade 102ED LXD650
Sky Watcher 100 ED Triplet prototype
Nexstar 5
etx125
etx70's
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Good post Jimbo 
Question: Why not use stacking and take multiple pictures instead of bothering with all the fuss needed for perfection tracking?
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Rushwind
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2137
Loc: Newark, CA
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Oh, there's stacking anyway. It's just that you get a *lot* more detail with a longer image. If I ever get around to scanning them all in, I'll post a series I shot of M42 at 5min, 10min, 15min, 30min, 45min. You'll see what I mean.
I did a series of M31 last summer, too; that ended up being 2x60min + 3x45min + 6x20min in the stack. That's a lot of perfect tracking, let me tell you. Couldn't have done it without my trusty, (not-so)dusty ST-4.
Jimbo
-------------------- Order of the Unblinking Eye
NJP 300D SSAG 8"f/5 (Rig)
Guidescope? What guidescope?
I used to shoot Nikon DSLR.
Before that, I shot film.
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TeamGS
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 3073
Loc: Elk Grove, CA
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Without going into too much detail, for dim DSO's it is GENERALLY best to take the longest image possible, given the limitations of the skyglow and your mount's tracking abilities.
For some of the brighter DSO's, shorter exposures are best, to eliminate overexposing certain portions. The core of M42 for example. Generally, one will combine short images that expose the core properly, with longer exposures that bring out the faint detail in the fan area.
If an image is too short, you could stack a thousand of them, and not get a decent image.
Regards,
Gary
-------------------- Celestron 80ED
Losmandy G11
NexStar 80
Starlight Xpress SXV-H9
SXV guidehead, ToUcam 840
http://www.teamgs.org/astrophotography.htm
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Quote:
Ive read a few post on autoguiding but none of them provied a clear understanding of of this technique. From what I understand you hook up a webcam to your finder scope center a star near your image and have the software control and guide your scope. Does this not eliminate the need for a good mount? I mean if that guide star remaines centered then you dont need mounts with periodic error correcting etc right?
Ive also read about how you need real expensive autoguiders to do a good job...what do these expensive ones do that the meade LPI hooked up to your finder couldnt do. The LPI has autoguider capabilities so as long as it can keep your scope centred on that star why do you need anything else?
Hehe...I think you are under the assumption that autoguiding is easy!
Autoguiding is one of the most difficult aspects of the hobby...and GOOD autoguiding is exponentially harder than that. We need all the help we can get, and that means good performing, well aligned mount.
There's a reason that people pay for $10,000 mounts, and you've just hit on that reason.
-------------------- jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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Suk Lee
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4534
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
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Quote:
There's a reason that people pay for $10,000 mounts, and you've just hit on that reason.
Here's another way of thinking about what Jay said. Let's say the mount moves off the guide-star by 3 arc-seconds (which at long focal lengths is a large error) for whatever reason. Then, on the next correction cycle, the autoguider is going to tell the mount to move back by 3 arc-seconds.
Think about it: 3 x 1/3600s of 1 degree of movement. The likelihood that the mount will actually be able to move with that level of precision depends on how accurately it's made and how much load its got on it. Most mounts aren't going to move that precisely. The mount will move either more or less, probably by a random factor, and so now you've got a repeating cycle of corrections, errors and further corrections.
The mechanical precision required by autoguiding is pretty phenomenal... far beyond almost anything else you encounter in everyday life.
Cheers, Suk
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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LOL! And that's just the mount! Bad seeing, wind, long focal lengths, mechanical flexure, bad polar alignment, poor guide star choices, electrical interference, power fluctuations, optical imprecision...good grief! But the WORSE contribution is typically the human factor...what settings do I use? Guider aggressiveness? Should I bin? How long of integrations? Should I set up a guider delay? Is my dithering correct? Etc, etc, etc!
It's so difficult because of the number of variables involved and the seemingly impossible task of troubleshooting problems.
Therefore, my best advice has always been to effectively eliminate as many of these variables as you can. Good mounts are key. Great polar alignments are critical. Use good mounting hardware and adapters. Unfortunately, if you are like me, operator error will ALWAYS be a significant problem, though it does get better!
I don't want to scare anybody off from the hobby, but we often shoot ourselves in the foot to begin with. And that's not good in a hobby that requires two good feet with all the toes!
-------------------- jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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Rushwind
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Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2137
Loc: Newark, CA
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While I respect the idea that more expensive equipment can help to squeeze the last few microns of precision out of an astrophotographic system, I feel that suggesting to someone just starting out in astrophotography that they're not going to be able to produce images with anything less than "a $10,000 mount" is at once cruel, unhelpful, and patently untrue.
Yes, a "better" mount will be easier to work with in the long run. A more precisely machined mount will perform more repeatably, and to greater image resolution than will one less precisely machined.
However, it is important to keep in mind that this is a *hobby*; if someone struggles along with less-than-perfect equipment but enjoys the time spent, then it will be worth it for them to invest more money in a hobby that pleases them.
Long-exposure astrophotography poses its own barriers to entry that are difficult enough to overcome; as Jay mentions, there are a large number of variables that all need to be addressed in order to produce a good image. A great deal of intricate equipment needs to come together under the watchful eye of someone open to learning how to use it. In short, this hobby is expensive as it is, without adding the pressure of hearing that it's not good enough unless you've spent enough.
Everyone has to start somewhere. Let's try to respect the idea that not everyone is willing to take out a second mortgage in order to create a new desktop wallpaper for themselves.
Jimbo
-------------------- Order of the Unblinking Eye
NJP 300D SSAG 8"f/5 (Rig)
Guidescope? What guidescope?
I used to shoot Nikon DSLR.
Before that, I shot film.
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Suk Lee
Post Laureate
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 4534
Loc: Pleasanton, CA
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Quote:
Everyone has to start somewhere. Let's try to respect the idea that not everyone is willing to take out a second mortgage in order to create a new desktop wallpaper for themselves.
Jimbo, absolutely agree. The point I was making (unclearly) was that the mechanical precision is so high that every extra dollar spent on a mount is worth it, regardless of the total outlay. i.e. The mount is just as important, any maybe more some in some ways, than the OTA.
Cheers,
Suk
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MarkHilt
super member
Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 152
Loc: West Amboy, New York, United S...
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Then again folks...While the guy with 10,000 bucks worth is settin it all up and pluggin it all in the skinny kid with the kodak brownie and duck taped scope gets the shot..
-------------------- ETX-90RA UHTC
80mm Widefield Refractor/Finder
5 inch Meade on Alt/Az mount
IBM T23/LPI (imaging)
10" Dob [my winter project]
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Dean
Postmaster
Reged: 12/31/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bailey Co Elev 8780 feet
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Quote:
The point I was making (unclearly) was that the mechanical precision is so high that every extra dollar spent on a mount is worth it, regardless of the total outlay. i.e. The mount is just as important, any maybe more some in some ways, than the OTA.
I thought your post gave a pretty good perspective of the importance of mount precision.
That said, Jimbo raises an issue that is a sore point for me.
To make a long story short, after ordering my LX200, I read "The New CCD Astronomy" and was sick to my stomach. After all my research it looked like my decision was a very poor one (especially with the mount) for what I wanted to do and that I would never be happy without major upgrades and monumental struggles. Well, I've had the scope for a while now and I think my decision was pretty much dead on. To be sure there were (and still are) problems, but none of my dire expectations after reading Wodaski have been an issue. Had I read Wodaski first, I would probably would have made a much different decision than the one I made and now, with hindsight in my favor, I don't think I would be as happy with it.
I don't mean to disparage Wodaski. I highly recommend "The New CCD Astronomy", there is a wealth of highly useful info and detailed instructions that have saved me countless hours of frustration. I also don't want to downplay the importance of the mount, while it is a critical component that is often overlooked (esp. by beginners it seems), I won't devote "every extra dollar" to it. I can make more incremental improvements and upgrades to my mount than I can to my OTA or CCD, so for me as long as the "core" of the mount is reasonable I can work out the other issues. But then that's me, my situation and what I'm willing to put up with and work on. It doesn't apply to everyone. My point is that for some, investing heavily in the mount is by far the best thing they can do, for others it isn't.
I apologize for my rant.
Dean
-------------------- "Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin
deanrowe.net/astro
Whats with that avatar?
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Rushwind
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2137
Loc: Newark, CA
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Quote:
The mount is just as important, any maybe more some in some ways, than the OTA.
Now *this* point I agree with. 
Just as the receiver is the center of an audio/video system, the mount is the center of an astrophoto system. OTAs and cameras may come and go, but a good mount is a good friend.
My complaint was geared in the same direction as Dean's; as a beginner in astrophotography, it was very disheartening to read Wodaski (and the pinned "equipment" thread in the CCD forum) and "realize" that I was never going to be able to afford this hobby.
Now that my pet peeve has been massaged, I think we can all agree that we're in agreement, and push this thread back to autoguiding. 
So, has anyone done some side-by-side tests with the DSI/LPI and the ST-4/V? Given a similarly capable mount , do they do a similarly capable job of keeping the mount on-track?
As far as standalone guiders, It's just the ST-4, STV, and (I hate to mention them in the same sentence) Meade 201xt, right? Everybody else is going to require a laptop.
Jimbo
-------------------- Order of the Unblinking Eye
NJP 300D SSAG 8"f/5 (Rig)
Guidescope? What guidescope?
I used to shoot Nikon DSLR.
Before that, I shot film.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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As we're talking about mounts, I've got a great polaris mount coming my way, its the old one but I got a good bargin.
Is this mount anygood? from what I've read it seems fine.
Edited by jsatan (02/27/05 06:48 PM)
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Rushwind
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/11/04
Posts: 2137
Loc: Newark, CA
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jsatan,
The Vixen GP is a fine mount for visual use (under the load of moderately sized OTAs). I am given to understand that it can be upgraded to accept autoguiding input (by adding the Skysensor accessory). Without Skysensor, I feel that its usefulness as a long-exposure astrophotography mount is limited.
That is, shooting pictures of planets will be well within your reach, as well as unguided piggybacked exposures with short focal length SLR lenses and short exposures. You are also free to manually guide this (or any) mount, which lets you image for as long as you would like to keep your eyeball glued to a reticle.
Jimbo
-------------------- Order of the Unblinking Eye
NJP 300D SSAG 8"f/5 (Rig)
Guidescope? What guidescope?
I used to shoot Nikon DSLR.
Before that, I shot film.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thanks for that, I got it for a starter 'scope.
As far as I know I can (if I point it good enough at ncp) get around 1min lx. Thats fine for the moment.
I will in time upgrade to the Skysensor, but I'm sure this is only goto which isnt that great is it?
I've just read that is ok for photos upto 130x, whats the average mag when taking pics of planets, its somewhere around 250-300?
but then I wouldnt need long lx on planets,
seem like its turning into a good idea.
I got the whole mount and ota for £200 so it was a great deal.
Skysensor as far as I knwo wont take a pc connection tho,
thats a shame, but I'm worling on building my won autoguiding soft/hardware.
It seems a ccd guider can be added, more reading.....
Edited by jsatan (02/27/05 08:03 PM)
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jay52
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Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Wow...I don't believe I EVER said that you needed to purchase a $10,000 mount to take good images. I'd suggest you re-read my posts.
The only thing I mentioned is that the beginning astroimager shouldn't take it for granted that taking images of good quality are easy. And quite frankly, when you get to the point of autoguiding, you've advanced to the point in the hobby where you are beyond the beginning stage. At that point, you probably need some honest, uncompromising advice. The foremost advice you can give is to purchase a good mount!
Those who know me well have heard me said that really wonderful photographs can be taken with modest equipment. That's more true today than ever before. But the difficulty of the hobby is why I always advocate the purchase of small apo refractors for the beginner. This lessens the aforementioned "variables" quite substantially.
-------------------- jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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jay52
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/26/04
Posts: 2514
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Quote:
While I respect the idea that more expensive equipment can help to squeeze the last few microns of precision out of an astrophotographic system, I feel that suggesting to someone just starting out in astrophotography that they're not going to be able to produce images with anything less than "a $10,000 mount" is at once cruel, unhelpful, and patently untrue.
Yes, a "better" mount will be easier to work with in the long run. A more precisely machined mount will perform more repeatably, and to greater image resolution than will one less precisely machined.
Quite honestly, this isn't true at all. Great equipment, especially mounts, does MUCH more than "squeeze the last few microns of precision out of an astrophotographic system." In fact, "precision" is a poorly used term when talking about a wide majority of mounts.
There's nothing better, in BOTH the long run AND the short run, than something like my current Tak NJP and Paramount ME. Implying that such money is not well-spent or that you can't achieve vast improvement while using such equipment just isn't right.
-------------------- jay
www.allaboutastro.com
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