Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Well, I've only participated in running our club's star party for two years (we just started it). I have no argument with your position (Barry), but here's what turned out to be our biggest problem (and I'm NOT making this up).
Our star party is held at a county park on the ocean in northeast Florida. We have absolute dominion over the park after dark.
But not during the day. Saturday, we endured several sets of fraternity initiation "tours" which consisted of 10 to 15 "supplicants" blindfolded, tied by the neck in a chain, jogging blind through the scope farm. Our President put a quick stop to it, but dogs, drunks, or kids were never an issue comparable to this one...
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Paul Romero
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 959
Loc: Reno, NV
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hey there,
I recently had my dog at a star party. The dark skies and dark dog fur made it impossible to know where he was at any one time. Surely he, being a chocolate lab, had a great time at the star parties we have been too. However, when he finds food--like most dogs--he will go after it. One fellow club member put cookies on his Televue scope base, and sure enough the dog found it...tipping over his scope at the same time. Approximately $200 of my moola later, the episode is closed. Now, I dont feel like I will be bringing my overgrown pup to star parties!
Paul
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Good As New MI-250 Refurb
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bierbelly
Postmaster
Reged: 01/23/04
Posts: 6179
Loc: Sterling, VA
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...and then there was the incident at the WSP where the indigenous fauna (a raccoon--did you know that "rabies" immediately precedes "raccoon" in Webster's II?) found a stargazer's homemade cookies which were safely (he thought) tucked away in a Chickee. Maybe a dog would have prevented that loss entirely!
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12" DSH
8" f/4 Vega MakNewt
6" MN66
TV85
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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I can sympathize with the "retriever-on-the-cookies" thing, but it comes down to conditioning; both my Goldens are aware that the onliest victuals they can consume are those willingly given.
That training has to start young, as a couple of Maggie's litter mates never caught on, and at eight years old, may never.
Maggie (and Casey) know the penalty for food-pilfering is very unpleasant. While they will try to charm food-possessers, they're aware that anything overt will result in pain.
Both M and C would welcome a 'coon, as they think I really appreciate fresh, bloody, meat. They've pretty well discovered that fresh-killed possum has no political value, and now merely tree 'em...racoons, however, represent an enduring value in canine legal tender....
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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Quote:
I like dogs and kids. I have neither of my own, but my family and friends do. There are three main differences that I can see where it pertains to star parties:
1. Dogs sometimes bite
2. Dogs sometimes do their business on the telescope field
3. Some people are allergic to dogs
None of the above *realistically* applies to children.
Children run round noisily
They knock things over
They break things, deliberately or not
They get bored more easily than adults so are more likely to cause havoc.
I'm allergic to children 
I admit I don't particularly like kids (but I love dogs). However, having said that, well behaved children who have an interest in astronomy are to be encouraged. I really do not think events like star parties are places for babies and small children.
On the dogs front, because of the fact that some dogs can be badly behaved (as a result of bad training - there is no such thing as a bad dog, only a bad owner) then star party organisers would be within their rights to bar dogs.
I declare an interest here: I have a dog, but no kids (and neither do I want kids).
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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Rusty
Postmaster
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
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Well, it would be clear now that I agree (two Golden Retrievers, zero kids). But this addresses my prior point concisely - why "yes" to children and "no" to dogs; I suspect politics.
I just returned from a small star party - many of the participants noted that, "I didn't even notice your dogs," while others (who know Maggie and Casey) commented, "I missed your dogs' visits!"
Mine are trained to behave - no jumping up on people, no urinating on tripods, no romping in the scope farm, no begging for food at dinner tables.
My two dogs are star party veterans, and I take pains to condition them about astro-stuff.
I'm with you - I wonder how many parents condition their issue about behavior. My dogs are trained. Are kids?
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N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson
Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)
Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke
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edwincjones
Close Enough
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
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So, do the kids really grow up to be amateur astromers?
We are a small group, and need new recruits to keep going; but I wonder how many amateur astronomers are second, third generation. I am first generation, my kids have no interest, my parents didn't either.
Do we need the kids for astronomy's growth?
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 33846
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Quote:
Do we need the kids for astronomy's growth?
Yes. Unless you just don't care. (Which, don't get me wrong, is a perfectly acceptable attitude.)
I too have a bias. I love dogs, and I love my kids. If forced to choose between a dog and kids however, I'll take kids hands down. Please note, that does not mean I don't get frustrated, annoyed or ticked off with kids - but regardless of that, I want to encourage their intellectual growth in a topic that's near to my heart, and that I hope they will also get some enjoyment out of.
I can also understand the desire to not have distrations - either kids or pets. I don't agree with it, but I do understand it.
You always have the right to choose if you go or not. In my case, more than likely, any star party that did not allow children would simply not recieve my patronage. I can't just leave my kids at the kennel.
Tom T.
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You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice...
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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Like I said, star parties are not the places for kids, unless it's one of those small ones specifically designed for kids and/or beginners.
What people might call "serious" star parties, i.e. Texas, WSP or or Equinox (one here in the UK) are not suitable for kids, surely? I have no idea whether children are allowed there, but if I was in charge (and I guess some would say it's just as well I'm not  ) then I would not allow children under 12 years old in - yep, some patrons might say "Oh well, if you don't let my kids attend then I won't", but there'll be plenty of others to fill the gaps.
If people have been up all night, then do they want screaming babies or small children or kids running round? No, surely not. And I'd say the same about dogs that were noisy, too.
I have no problem at all with older children who have an interest in the subject.
Ok, I suppose I'll get roundly criticised for this view, but it's only my own opinion and I stand by it and make no apologies for it.
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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Victor Kennedy
Pooh-Bear
Reged: 05/22/03
Posts: 12190
Loc: Slovenia
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I like kids and dogs. I can tolerate adults if they don't gripe and grumble.
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No matter how hard you push the envelope, it's still stationary.
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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Only when confronted with noisy kids.
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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Jarad
Postmaster
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 5732
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I want to encourage their intellectual growth in a topic that's near to my heart, and that I hope they will also get some enjoyment out of.
Yeah, I am trying to get my girls interested too. I don't take them to big star parties, though, because they seem to enjoy it more when it's just us so I can concentrate on them rather than chatting with all the other astronomers who are there. I do take them out in the yard or on some weekend trips to view with me.
Quote:
I can't just leave my kids at the kennel.
That's what grandparents are for! 
By the way, cute new pic in you avatar! How is big sister getting along with the baby?
Jarad
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Tom Trusock
Reged: 02/26/02
Posts: 33846
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Quote:
Quote:
I can't just leave my kids at the kennel.
That's what grandparents are for!
Boy do I wish it was that easy!
Quote:
By the way, cute new pic in you avatar! How is big sister getting along with the baby?
Pretty well - although it's obvious she feels Sammy gets altogether too much attention.
T
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You do not need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice...
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edwincjones
Close Enough
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
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I hope I am wrong, but I do not think we are getting the amateur astronomers' kids. At the star parties I go to, kids come because their parents bring them, but most do not seem to have any interest in astronomy or continue to return when they grow up and have a choice. Schools and scout groups seem like a better recrutement field.
ed jones
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BarrySimon615
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 2126
Loc: New Orleans, LA
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One family who comes to the Deep South Regional StarGaze regularly has 3 girls. They youngest, I believe, is now 11. Last year she got her 10 year attendance pin and was very proud of it. Her two older sisters got theirs the year before and when asked last year if they wanted to go to the DSRSG or a school party they quickly said they did not want to miss the star party.
While our event does not cater to the general public in that it is not designed as a public star party to introduce the night sky to novices, it does attract a number of newbies that have either just joined one of a number of clubs that are in our region or are independent astronomers that have independently discovered us. The range of experience on the field runs the spectrum and mistakes do happen. As many "new" adults make mistakes as do "new" kids. Veteran kids know very well what a red flashlight is and how to use it.
We do need to encourage an interest in the sciences in the young. While my oldest is now 20 and finishing her 3rd year as part of the College of Architecture, School of Interior Design at the University of Texas in Austin. While that is not technically a "science" field, perhaps my interest in astronomy and her early interest in astronomy could have influenced her career choice in some way. One of my fondest memories is of me carrying her out of the house at a young age, say about 2; her head would be turning about in her attempt to see how quickly she could find the crescent Moon in the late afternoon sky. Once found, with finger pointing, she would enunciate "Mmmoooon" in the cutest little voice a proud astronomy father would ever want to hear.
Barry Simon
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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In the UK, a lot of young people are turning their back on the sciences in favour of making a nuisance of themselves in the streets or, if they do go on to higher education, they go for what are perceived as "soft" options such as drama or media studies, etc.
Science seems to be badly taught in the UK and as a result kids will dismiss it as boring. I certainly never had any encouragement as a child or teenager. I wanted to do science at school, but the head of science tried to dissuade me (unsuccessfully as it happened) telling me I was no good at maths so therefore I wouldn't be good at science - utter b.s. if ever I've heard it. I hated maths admittedly - more hated the teacher than the subject and got thrown out of class for disruptive behaviour - but as it turned out, I was good at Physics and other sciences because I was interested in those subjects.
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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Kristen
sage
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 410
Loc: Suffolk, UK 52N 0E
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I recommend "Blow up science" at the kitchen table - works well for our sprogs!
Kristen
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12" GSO Dob (Revelation 2) with DSC from old 6XTi
Beginner since 16-Apr'05
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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
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There are a series of books here called "Horrible Science" or "Horrid Science" or something like that. Lots of bangs, smells and yuck factor. They seemed to be aimed at younger children rather than teenagers, though.
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Visual deep sky
18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...
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