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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A.
      #472394 - 06/11/05 09:17 AM

Hello All.
I know this is a *BLEEEP* of a question to ask, what is the best O.T.A. out there of all the very best of the best.
My health could be better & I'm not rich , but I could sell assets to pay for this scope, the enjoyment would be so wonderful for me.

Like to have information to this in the back of my head .
The cost of this scope = to its performance would be of great help.
Best Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Chris G
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4555
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #472400 - 06/11/05 09:24 AM

6" APO's from Stellarvue, Astro Physics, APM/TMB are all good.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #472402 - 06/11/05 09:32 AM

Thanks Chris ,
Do you prefer any one brand ?

Life should be fun Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Chris G
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4555
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #472416 - 06/11/05 09:51 AM

Well Bill, you'll see in my signature I have a Stellarvue now and my 4th SV on order. The scopes have excellent optics (TMB optics), the build quality is second to none and the customer service is excellent. If you call to inquire about a scope you'll speak with Vic Maris the owner. Wait list for the SV152 is probably about 6 months.

The APM/TMB is also an excellent scope with great build quality using the same TMB optics as the SV. You may be able to find an APM scope in stock although their prices do seem higher.

The Astro Physic is renowned as an excellent scope but the lead time is probably 5 years on a new one so a used one might be your best bet. Also I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong, they are currently only making a 160mm scope, slightly bigger and more expensive than a 6" APO.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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Chris G
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4555
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #472422 - 06/11/05 09:58 AM

Bill here's some links.

http://stellarvue.com/sv152.html

http://www.apm-telescopes.de/englisch/index.htm
Actually it looks like the APM/TMB is the same price as the Stellarvue so you'd have to see which is cheaper to ship.

http://www.astro-physics.com/
The Astro Physics is also about the same price but again you're looking at waiting years for a scope.

Good luck with your search I'm sure others here may come up with even more suggestions.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #472441 - 06/11/05 10:24 AM

Hi again CHris,
You do seem happy with your Stellarvue, thanks for the other links- that 160mm is worth considering !.

Gee don,t think I [have] 5 years to wait .
Have fun Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #472447 - 06/11/05 10:30 AM

Astro-Physics and Takahashi.

If you are willing to pay more than list you can buy a "new" (slightly used or NIB) AP on the used scope market.

An outstanding buy right now is the Takahashi FS-152. They are closing out that line. No waiting. A very good price, a little over $6,000. You could put it on a Losmandy G11 for another $2k. It would be an outstanding visual setup.

Tak will bring out a 6" TOA that I'm sure will be very nice.

I wish you all the best with your health.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/11/05 10:33 AM)


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Daniel Mounsey
Vendor - Celestron


Reged: 06/12/02
Posts: 4899
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #472463 - 06/11/05 10:54 AM

Quote:

Astro-Physics and Takahashi.

If you are willing to pay more than list you can buy a "new" (slightly used or NIB) AP on the used scope market.

An outstanding buy right now is the Takahashi FS-152. They are closing out that line. No waiting. A very good price, a little over $6,000. You could put it on a Losmandy G11 for another $2k. It would be an outstanding visual setup.

Tak will bring out a 6" TOA that I'm sure will be very nice.

I wish you all the best with your health.

Rich




I agree with Rich here. I'm very particular about optical quality and I've tested quite a few high end apos. The Tak 152 is the best in my opinion. I think AP cheated a bit by classing a 160mm as a 6". Personally, I think it was a bit of a low blow. If I ran the test of the new 160, I'd mask it down to 152mm and make a comparison.

--------------------


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #472468 - 06/11/05 11:00 AM

Hi Rich,
Thanks for your concern about my health, ( to many smokes & beers ) but hope to be around for a few more years yet.

Appreciate the information about the Taks' but are they the best of the best.
Rich I do thank you .
Best Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #472474 - 06/11/05 11:11 AM

Hello Daniel,
please tell me more about A.S. 160mm as you stated.
Regards bill'

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #472481 - 06/11/05 11:24 AM

Astro-Physics makes fantastic scopes, but they have a long waiting list. TEC (Telescope Engineering) is the only other boutique company that actually makes their own optics rather than purchasing them in a cell for 6" class APO's.

TEC carries on the tradition of oil-spaced triplets and have two 160mm APO's coming out: an f/8 ED glass one and an f/7 fluorite model. Their web site is not updated with the correct lineup, so a call to Yuri (owner) is in order. IIRC, the f/8 is about the same price as the AP 160 (~$8500) and the f/7 fluorite will be ~$12,000

Philip

Edited by blandp11 (06/11/05 11:40 AM)


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: blandp11]
      #472490 - 06/11/05 11:31 AM

Hello Blandp11,
Thanks for the information.
Regards Bill

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #472498 - 06/11/05 11:41 AM

AP has been making a 155mm f/7 and is now making a 160mm f/7.5. TEC is also making a 160mm. I don't think they are trying to "cheat". I believe they responding to the market.

The new TEC 160mm f/7? fluorite triplet should be outstanding. You should add it to your list. I've only looked through a smaller TEC refactor and the image was of a deep sky object and at very low power, so I could not tell how well it could perform. Just pointing out my lack of experience with the TEC line.

I have an AP 155mm f/7 EDFS. I love it. It performs very well. A friend has a Tak FS-152 152mm f/8.1. it also gives beautiful high contrast images. You really have to look very closely to see a difference and then you may not see it. I wouldn't mind at all having the FS-152 if I couldn't have my AP.

Takahashi also made an older triplet (FCT?) that when all the lenses are centered and spaced correctly can give excellent images but they are quite heavy and I've heard they take a long time to cool down.

Some companies design their telescopes more with imaging/photography in mind. They still perform well visually.

I've had almost no time at the eyepiece of a TMB 6". I'm sure they can perform well.

The image quality is so good at the high end that part of the decision is the weight and design of the mechanical parts of the OTA.

Most of my experience is with Astro-Physics. They make an outstanding telescope. So good that the demand for their products is huge. That is why they are selling for so much on the used market. AP has increased the size of their plant. They are very careful about testing and keeping to their high optical standards. AP makes their own lenses and virtually all the rest of the OTA and mount.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/11/05 11:54 AM)


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #472512 - 06/11/05 12:02 PM

Rich now I can tell by your last post that the question of (what is the best of the best) may come down to the oldest theme of supply & demand !
A.P. seems to be the front runner to my original question.
You take care, Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #472547 - 06/11/05 12:58 PM

As others have pointed out, when comparing these high end 6" apos we are dealing with very small quality differences. Real design differences involve oil spaced vs. air spaced, triplet vs. fluorite doublet, slow vs. fast, system components, etc. Decisions about which to purchase should be driven by your objective, be it visual use, imaging, "portability", cooldown time, observing program, and budget.

The "best of the best" can mean different things depending on what you want the scope to do. For me, it meant the AP155, but views through the Tak and TMB have never been a disappointment. Guess I'm just a sucker for any well made telescope.


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #472558 - 06/11/05 01:13 PM

Yes otocycle, there are design differences that I should have stated .
The scope I want will be used my be for visual only.
Nice to have your thoughts.
Have fun Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #472592 - 06/11/05 01:54 PM

Hi Bill - visual use only helps to open up the prospects, because you don't need to worry about correction over a wider/different wavelength range. In general, experience has shown the triplet designs to be very slightly better for color correction (Jupiter test).

This might exclude the very fine FS152, or other fluorocrown/ED/SD doublets. Astro-Physics has changed to an air-spaced triplet in the new 160mm Starfire, and Takahashi is due for a FCT replacement (TOA). But TMBs are available now, even if they are heavier to mount.

Evaluation of the AP 160 f/7.5 design by customers who are just now receiving the first production run may send a ripple through the status quo. That remains to be seen (pun intended).

So if waiting for a new AP means many years without a scope, do what we all do: get on the no obligation waiting list and buy a used AP155, new/used TMB or Tak and enjoy the views that such instruments gan give NOW.

CS - Otto


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Paul Hyndman
sage


Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 380
Loc: Connecticut Shoreline USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #472634 - 06/11/05 03:01 PM

Quote:

I think AP cheated a bit by classing a 160mm as a 6". Personally, I think it was a bit of a low blow. If I ran the test of the new 160, I'd mask it down to 152mm and make a comparison.




NOTE: This is not intended to be argumentative, but simply one old geezer's viewpoint!

Ummm... AP cheated a bit?!? Cheated whom?

Perhaps I might feel somewhat "cheated" that the AP155 I waited for since June of '99 became an AP160 (with a price increase to accompany it along the way). But I do not feel "cheated" that Roland designed it with a 160mm aperture instead of 155mm.

With the increased costs associated with the AP155 design (an FPL53 element IIRC?) and oil-spacing that necessitated more grueling aspherization of the elements, a design change was certainly in the offing if not inevitible.

Hard AR multi-coatings which could be applied at lower temperatures (avoiding Uh-Ohs during oven-annealing or stress fractures many years down the road) became available, opening the road for air-spacing in lieu of oil-spacing. There would be a penalty though, in the form of a slight light loss... hence the increase in aperture from 155mm to 160mm to (more than) compensate.

The lens design uses an eased (longer) focal ratio of f/7.5 (fl=1200mm) vs its predecessor's f/7.0 (fl=1085mm), which perhaps also was used in determining the size "niche" in which it would be most appropriate.

An old goat's observation: Roland tends to design scopes that make sense to him... and apparently to enough devotees that the company enjoys a solid following.

I do agree though that there are several fine "6 inch" (or so! ) APOs available. Some can be obtained relatively quickly, some at great prices, and most are capable of thrilling you to tears (unless one is consumed by testing, evaluating, and doing innumeable star-tests!)

BTW, I am not aware that AP "classed" the AP160 as a "6 inch"!?! (APs are in their own class!!!)

Cheers,

Paul

--------------------

---------------------
Refractors:

AP105 EDT (Traveler)
AP160 EDF
AP175 EDF
Circa 1810 Utzschneider,Reichenbach,Fraunhofer
Circa 1825 Merz,Utzschneider,Fraunhofer



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nemo
sage


Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Eugene,Oregon
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Paul Hyndman]
      #472716 - 06/11/05 04:57 PM

If it were me I would buy the TMB scope. The optics are considered world class and as good or better than AP depending on who you talk to. You can buy the scope directly from Thomas Back who is the original designer of TMB optics. Thomas will assemble and test all aspects of the scope before he ships. I just cannot see how you could get any better than to have the man who originally designed the scope being the one to personally assemble and test it. One of the things that TMB does that AP does not is provide you with full documentation on the lens as tested by the manufacturer. Here is a link to check this out:
http://www.tmboptical.com/itemsRecord.asp?item_id=11&cat_id=4&

I should add that I own a TMB 115 and it has provided me with some of the best views I have ever had. I have had an opportunity to compare it to other scopes of similar aperature and it has never been beaten although equaled several times by AP, and one of the Tak models.
Good Luck,
Dan

--------------------
"Humility is not thinking less of your self-it is about thinking of yourself less."


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c131frdave
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 4376
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: nemo]
      #472845 - 06/11/05 07:31 PM

FYI, there's an AP155 on the 'mart right now. It's in the auction section.

--------------------
Tak NJP

Various sizes and shapes of formed glass


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: c131frdave]
      #473330 - 06/12/05 10:35 AM

Thanks for all the great tips everyone.
I will look deeply into it now .
Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: c131frdave]
      #473349 - 06/12/05 11:00 AM

A 1998 Astro-Physics 155EDF is now up for auction on Astromart (http://www.astromart.com/auctions/details.asp?auction_id=1375).
It ends in a 2 1/2 hours from now (now = June 12 11:00AM EDT). It is "only" at $7,700 which would be a great bargin for this scope. I suspect that the final price will be somewhere north of $8,500.

--------------------


Mostly refractors


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ngc6475
Fearless Spectator


Reged: 03/02/02
Posts: 5024
Loc: 38°21'N 120°55'W
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: blandp11]
      #473512 - 06/12/05 01:54 PM

I own a 5.5" TEC apo, and I can personally attest to its quality. I took it to the local club's monthly star party a couple of weeks ago, and it was well received by all and sundry, including the owners of 6" AP and TMB scopes. I believe that all of the high end APOs manufactured by AP, Tak, TEC, TMB, and SV are of exceptional quality. I think anyone would be completely satisfied with any of them. One caveat I would like to mention, however, is that size and weight are a real consideration when choosing one these big boys, and appropriate mounting will add another large chunk to both the price as well as to the baggage you will be toting around. Be sure you are up to the task of wrestling with your setup, unless you are going to mount it in an observatory. In any case, there are many fine brands from which to choose and you will have a lot of fun making this decision: it's a win-win proposition any way you look at it! Good luck to you!

--------------------
Walter

"There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls."
-George Carlin



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blandp11
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/19/05
Posts: 1963
Loc: Glen Ridge, NJ USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: blandp11]
      #473572 - 06/12/05 02:50 PM

It ended up at $7,800 - a really good price.

Quote:

I suspect that the final price will be somewhere north of $8,500.




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milt
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/13/04
Posts: 603
Loc: Arizona
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ngc6475]
      #473600 - 06/12/05 03:17 PM

Quote:

size and weight are a real consideration when choosing one these big boys




Hi Walter,

Excellent point. While it would take an experienced observer under excellent seeing to separate these scopes visually, the 6" AP, TEC and Tak FS scopes are some 10lbs. lighter than the TMB (the Tak TOA will likely be close to the TMB in weight). Lifting such a scope onto a tall mount is a definite consideration for us older observers, plus a heavier OTA will be less stable than a lighter OTA on any given mount.

Regarding TEC, the window may still be open to order a scope from this year's run of 160ED f/8's, which will use the same oil-spaced FPL-53 triplet design as the excellent TEC 140. If anyone is interested they should check with Yuri Petrunin soon.

The other scope that has not been mentioned (probably because it is 5-figure unobtainium) is the Zeiss FSQ150 oil-spaced fluorite triplet made back in the 1990's (?). Anyone fortunate enough to own one of these seems to be hanging onto it.

--------------------
Clear skies, Milt


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Sol Robbins
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 1985
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: milt]
      #473718 - 06/12/05 05:01 PM

This is a little difficult to answer in that other scope designs survive the cost/benefit ratio better. Even for premium optics.

That said, I've been using a 6" refractor for about 5 years. Though mine is very good,6" Synta with Chromacor II, factors in comparisons of higher end 6" Apos became pretty small.

For visual I would recommend moderate focal ratio. Faster than f/7, even in an Apo, can result in accumulated optical stuff. Spherochromatism comes to mind.

For triplet optics, size, weight, cool down, simplicity and aesthetics and mounting requirements I tend to like the TEC 140.

SR


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HAC
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 534
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Sol Robbins]
      #473743 - 06/12/05 05:36 PM

If it were me, all things considered, I would buy the Takahashi FS152. For visual use, I do not think there are any better choices than the Tak doublets.

Take care,
john

--------------------
Bring Back The AP Waiting List Thread and Let Freedom Ring


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: HAC]
      #474093 - 06/12/05 11:22 PM

Astro-Physics and Takahashi are a bit more established the Stellarvue/TMB, as such, people have had more expereince observing with them, but in all liklihood have not necessarily done A-B comparisons between those and the Stellarvue. When people are first introduced to a Stellarvue sporting TMB lenses, they are blown away! It is a world class scope that is every bit as good as an A-P or TAK (optically speaking). The SV152 also produces a perfectly flat field for imagining using medium-large CCD cameras (such as STL-11000). The current "bundled package" that SV is offering makes it almost irrestible. I am sure the AP-160 is equally good, BUT, a scope you have to wait 5 years to get is not worth a *BLEEEP* to me! TAK optics are also outstanding, but many of its parts are proprietary, expense, and even somewhat dated....(for example, you cannot get a Feather Touch focuser for a TAK, nor do they make an equivalent.....BUT, buy their Finder Scope and use it on whatever OTA you purchase, their FInder Scope is the best!)

Disclaimer: "I could be wrong"

Gary


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2569
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474115 - 06/12/05 11:41 PM

Gary:

There is a recent ad for a Tak FS-102II on A.M. and the guy is selling a "Brand new Starlight Instruments FeatherTouch micro-focuser $150" that he notes is an optional accessory that comes with the scope. I just read that ad about 20 minutes before reading your post, and I confirmed that Anacortes sells Starlight's FeatherTouch and it does indeed fit Taks (Part #TRF102 for example). I would never buy one myself because the focus on my Tak is so "buttery smooth" I wouldn't want or need one. Note, for an equivalent, Takahashi's 10-to-1 Micro Edge Focuser offers great precision.
Also the newer Taks are much less proprietary with some equipment now. You can put any finder in the Tak finder bracket (8 X 50, 9 X 50) and can get a quick-release bracket for the Tak. Also, I can use my Celestron f/6.3 focal reducer with the Tak whereas with prior versions you had to buy the $500 plus Tak focal reducer. I can also use the Vixen flip mirror system and a few other things. I don't even use the Tak clamshell. You get get a $20 set of tube rings that work great with the Tak (not as pretty, but work just as well). There are two companies making quick-release finder brackets now for the Taks, and you could even get by without having to buy the Tak $60 finder bracket now.

For what it's worth.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #474121 - 06/12/05 11:46 PM

How long have the SV152's been shipping? Just haven't seen one yet. And at 34 pounds, not sure I want to load one into a high set of rings. Each of the long established 6" apo manufacturers has brought something new or better to the market, and Takahashi has been doing it longer than anyone except Zeiss (NLA). Yes, the lens sets come from Canon's Optron division, but they still did some neat things with manmade CaF2 monocrystal to jump start the apo refractor market many years ago.

What does the SV152 offer that I can't get with a TMB?

CS - Otto


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474122 - 06/12/05 11:46 PM

If the SV guy shows up at SSP this year I hope he doesn't put his 6" refractor to bed so early. I missed getting a look through it at last year's SSP.

Gary, I would get a Tak FS-152 while you can. Or, you could get a used AP without much of a wait.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/12/05 11:48 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474123 - 06/12/05 11:47 PM

>>>Astro-Physics and Takahashi are a bit more established the Stellarvue/TMB, as such, people have had more expereince observing with them, but in all liklihood have not necessarily done A-B comparisons between those and the Stellarvue. When people are first introduced to a Stellarvue sporting TMB lenses, they are blown away!
----

My guess is that folks like Rich N have looked through about everything out there...

Jon

--------------------


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #474124 - 06/12/05 11:50 PM

I'm trying. :-)

Rich


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #474131 - 06/12/05 11:55 PM

Quote:

How long have the SV152's been shipping? Just haven't seen one yet. And at 34 pounds, not sure I want to load one into a high set of rings. Each of the long established 6" apo manufacturers has brought something new or better to the market, and Takahashi has been doing it longer than anyone except Zeiss (NLA). Yes, the lens sets come from Canon's Optron division, but they still did some neat things with manmade CaF2 monocrystal to jump start the apo refractor market many years ago.

What does the SV152 offer that I can't get with a TMB?

CS - Otto




The two OTAs certainly look different. Maybe someone would prefer the look of one over another.

Rich


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celestial_search
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474138 - 06/13/05 12:01 AM

I second Rich's recommendation. I've viewed through my own Tak and an FS-152. I've never viewed with a AP APO. The Taks are definitely premium scopes and worth it. The weather has not cooperated a lot, but I've used it enough to even consider learning sketching as well as CCD imaging. I'm sure the other premium APOs are good, but I will second the Tak recommendation.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474145 - 06/13/05 12:09 AM

Quote:


The two OTAs certainly look different. Maybe someone would prefer the look of one over another.

Rich





OK...but what makes Stellarvue more than a "me too" with TMB optics? I know what I'm going to get with a FS-152NSV for $6395 at Anacortes. I'm clueless about SV152! Any reviews out there?

CS - Otto


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #474150 - 06/13/05 12:15 AM

I was recommending the FS-152 because it is available and for a good price. It does give very nice images but I think the images through my current AP 155EDFS (155mm f/7) or my earlier AP 155EDT (155mm f/9) are slightly better but it is really close. I don't notice the "warm" look of the FS images as much as some of my observing friends do. I know some prefer the "warm" look.

I've gone back and forth between these scopes and I do my best to be honest with myself. It is really difficult. Are you hitting the same seeing even when the scopes are only twenty or thirty feet apart? Are you spending enough time behind the eyepiece? Are you switching scopes quickly enough?

I like the FS-152 enough it is very tempting to buy one just to have one.

Rich


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celestial_search
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474156 - 06/13/05 12:20 AM

Rich:

I have to view through an AP sometime. None in our area that I'm aware. I think I understand that "warm" look you describe. Some things are hard to describe. I keep telling myself that I don't need another scope, but who knows, at some point I may get an FS-152 unless they become extinct.

I'm going to get a better imaging mount soon.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #474158 - 06/13/05 12:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:


The two OTAs certainly look different. Maybe someone would prefer the look of one over another.

Rich





OK...but what makes Stellarvue more than a "me too" with TMB optics? I know what I'm going to get with a FS-152NSV for $6395 at Anacortes. I'm clueless about SV152! Any reviews out there?

CS - Otto




I think the SV gives you a rotating focuser. The TMBs I've seen have a rotating focuser and it carries the finder. I have no idea about differences between their optics.

Why not grab the Tak and run?

Rich


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474162 - 06/13/05 12:22 AM

Quote:


I like the FS-152 enough it is very tempting to buy one just to have one.

Rich




Agreed....been thinking about it myself ever since the Ed Ting shootout. Tak's fluorite doublets are a little warm?....yea, I would agree on that based on my FS102 and a TMB 100.

The other reason to buy the sure thing FS152 as new with Tak warranty is that a used AP155 or TMB comes with more risk unless it can be inspected.


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HAC
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #474192 - 06/13/05 12:55 AM

I've looked through Tak's, TV's, and AP's. All were superb.
For visual contrast and sharpness I prefered the longer focal length Tak doublet.

Take care,
john

--------------------
Bring Back The AP Waiting List Thread and Let Freedom Ring


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #474194 - 06/13/05 12:57 AM

The SV-152 is built like a tank, Feather Touch rotatable focuser, TMB ("me too") optics...it is recently introduced scope. Whether you pick A-P, TAK, TMB, SV, or TEC...you can't go wrong. "Which is the best" is highly debatable, for there is vastness of consideration when one considers features that might be best for themsevles and their particular needs. Best for ME has to be 6" APO with a f/ratio of 8.0 or less so it fits in my trunk. (all the above qualify in this regards)...but bottom line...IMHO...all 5 of those aforementioned brands are the Best of the Best. I like to equate scopes to stereo equipment...REGARDLESS how much money you spend on stereo equipment, there is no such thing as PERFECT...it boils down to the reproduction of sonic abberration that is most pleasing to you. My $13,000 DVD player (Tag McLaren) is arguably one of the best around...yet the owner of a $10,000 Halcro, or $25,000 Meridian may argue theirs is the best. Indeed, hi-end stereo websites are much like this one...and if the opinions of everyones "best" were to be considered gospel.....you would have to buy them ALL! lol

Gary


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474205 - 06/13/05 01:09 AM

PS: Price is also consideration. Just so happens I was pricing SV152 today vs comparably equipped TAK. For $14,300 you get 6" APO, Mountain Instruments 250 mount, MI-portable pier. For the SAME price (once you add field flattener and Temma hand controller), you get the TOA 130 on competitively priced NJP mount.....5" versus 6" (the SV152 does not need field flattener, and the MI-250 comes with hand controller). Similarily, the TOA 150 is an additional $2,500.

ok...The End

Gary


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474208 - 06/13/05 01:15 AM

Amendment:

The FS-152 is 54" long, would not fit in my trunk. May be the greatest scope in the world, so here is an example of "great scope but wrong design" for me.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474210 - 06/13/05 01:21 AM

Quote:

AP has been making a 155mm f/7 and is now making a 160mm f/7.5. TEC is also making a 160mm. I don't think they are trying to "cheat". I believe they responding to the market.

The new TEC 160mm f/7? fluorite triplet should be outstanding. You should add it to your list. I've only looked through a smaller TEC refactor and the image was of a deep sky object and at very low power, so I could not tell how well it could perform. Just pointing out my lack of experience with the TEC line.

I have an AP 155mm f/7 EDFS. I love it. It performs very well. A friend has a Tak FS-152 152mm f/8.1. it also gives beautiful high contrast images. You really have to look very closely to see a difference and then you may not see it. I wouldn't mind at all having the FS-152 if I couldn't have my AP.

Takahashi also made an older triplet (FCT?) that when all the lenses are centered and spaced correctly can give excellent images but they are quite heavy and I've heard they take a long time to cool down.

Some companies design their telescopes more with imaging/photography in mind. They still perform well visually.

I've had almost no time at the eyepiece of a TMB 6". I'm sure they can perform well.

The image quality is so good at the high end that part of the decision is the weight and design of the mechanical parts of the OTA.

Most of my experience is with Astro-Physics. They make an outstanding telescope. So good that the demand for their products is huge. That is why they are selling for so much on the used market. AP has increased the size of their plant. They are very careful about testing and keeping to their high optical standards. AP makes their own lenses and virtually all the rest of the OTA and mount.

Rich




Rich,
The 160 is classed as a 6" refractor and it isn't. What's gonna happen next in the comparisons is the 160 is gonna have a slight edge over others in the 6" class. Do you honestly think people are gonna bother masking it down to make a fair comparison with other 6" scopes. I just think it's a low blow on AP's part because there's nothing in that size class to compare it to, which takes the real fun out of the tests. When you race cars, there's class restrictions which are needed to keep things fair. I'm not saying this is a race, but I am saying it's a cheezy aproach from a comparison point of view. If AP wants to have a 160 then that's their right, but I'll disregard any comparisons that come up.

--------------------


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474211 - 06/13/05 01:23 AM

Heck, I bought a GMC Suburban to hold my toys. ;-) I think of as part of my observing equipment.

A Tak FS-152 and a Losmandy G11 mount/semi-pier and tripod is a fine visual package for about $8+k USD.

Rich


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474218 - 06/13/05 01:47 AM

I'm so poor that my chaffuer quit when i could not meet his demand for a raise....and my cook quit too, so now i am eating Caviar Helper. I can't afford another car! (roflmao)

Gary


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #474231 - 06/13/05 02:12 AM

[quote

Rich,
The 160 is classed as a 6" refractor and it isn't. What's gonna happen next in the comparisons is the 160 is gonna have a slight edge over others in the 6" class. Do you honestly think people are gonna bother masking it down to make a fair comparison with other 6" scopes. I just think it's a low blow on AP's part because there's nothing in that size class to compare it to, which takes the real fun out of the tests. When you race cars, there's class restrictions which are needed to keep things fair. I'm not saying this is a race, but I am saying it's a cheezy aproach from a comparison point of view. If AP wants to have a 160 then that's their right, but I'll disregard any comparisons that come up.




Ok, but I'm sure AP will be crushed. :-) Are you going to disregard the TEC 160mm fluorite triplet? Did you disregard the Tak FSQ-106 when comparing 4" APOs?

Those darned telescope makers are so insensitive to the needs of us amateurs trying to compare telescopes.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/13/05 02:52 AM)


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badsnoopy
One star is enough


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474331 - 06/13/05 07:04 AM

Hey Rich you talk so much about comparing scopes that it suprises me that you made that last comment. I agree that if your going to compare scopes all things must be made as equal as possible. I think that is all Danial was trying to say. AP may be a great scope but they aren't SO much better than everyone else out there just because they have the AP on the side of the scope.

Like Gary said at this point the differences between these top scope makers aren't that huge. It simply comes down to which scope best meets what you want. Me there is no way no how I would wait 5 years for a scope. It may be the best out there but that is not for me.

--------------------
Robert

TV Genesis SDF
Losmandy G11
10x14 Roll roof observatory
Lumenera SkyNyx 2-2m


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #474368 - 06/13/05 08:45 AM

>>>Rich,
The 160 is classed as a 6" refractor and it isn't. What's gonna happen next in the comparisons is the 160 is gonna have a slight edge over others in the 6" class. Do you honestly think people are gonna bother masking it down to make a fair comparison with other 6" scopes. I just think it's a low blow on AP's part because there's nothing in that size class to compare it to, which takes the real fun out of the tests. When you race cars, there's class restrictions which are needed to keep things fair. I'm not saying this is a race, but I am saying it's a cheezy aproach from a comparison point of view.
-----
Here's the way I look at it:

Telescopes are made to observe and photograph with, not provide fodder for comparisons. This is not a race and while it fun for a second or two to compare various scopes, the ultimate goal here is to look at the stars though the scope, not compare which one is better.

Back when I was a truck driver hauling hay, the guys with the big CATs and pumped up Cummins would sit in the restrurant yakking about whose truck was faster up the Whitewater grade. Me, I was in the drivers seat with my little underpowered Detroit and I beat em all up the hill because I was hauling hay, not shooting the bull....

When buying a car to drive, I certainly don't consider that one company is being unfair by using a 1.9 liter motor rather than a 1.8 liter, it's just part of the package the performance of the package is what is important, not how big the motor is that makes it go...

If you guys want to spend you evenings trying to decide which 6 inch APO gives the best view, that's fine with me but personally I will be out there with my little underpowered 12.5 incher or a 4 inch Achro trying to get the best view I can...

Just the way I look at it....

Jon

--------------------


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: badsnoopy]
      #474369 - 06/13/05 08:46 AM

Quote:

Hey Rich you talk so much about comparing scopes that it suprises me that you made that last comment. I agree that if your going to compare scopes all things must be made as equal as possible. I think that is all Danial was trying to say. AP may be a great scope but they aren't SO much better than everyone else out there just because they have the AP on the side of the scope.

Like Gary said at this point the differences between these top scope makers aren't that huge. It simply comes down to which scope best meets what you want. Me there is no way no how I would wait 5 years for a scope. It may be the best out there but that is not for me.




My comment was aimed at Daniel saying that AP is making a 160mm telescope and apparently he thinks they are cheating by putting in "the 6 inch class". I have no idea where he has read or heard that Astro-Physics is putting their new 160mm in "the 6 inch class".

I appreciate the difficulty of comparing telescopes of different sizes... but this is not an attempt to pull the wool over someones eyes by making a 160mm telescope.

Here is the headline from the AP website for their 160mm.

"ASTRO-PHYSICS 160mm f7.5 Starfire EDF – 6.3" aperture (160EDF)"

AP and other telescope makers (TEC) size their telescopes to meet the needs and interests of their customers.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/13/05 08:58 AM)


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BushyBill
sage


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474388 - 06/13/05 09:27 AM

Thanks All,
Well it seems there is no best of the best !
The information so far has been outstanding.

Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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HAC
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/07/05
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474389 - 06/13/05 09:27 AM

Quote:

The SV-152 is built like a tank, Feather Touch rotatable focuser, TMB ("me too") optics...it is recently introduced scope. Whether you pick A-P, TAK, TMB, SV, or TEC...you can't go wrong. "Which is the best" is highly debatable, for there is vastness of consideration when one considers features that might be best for themsevles and their particular needs. Best for ME has to be 6" APO with a f/ratio of 8.0 or less so it fits in my trunk. (all the above qualify in this regards)...but bottom line...IMHO...all 5 of those aforementioned brands are the Best of the Best. I like to equate scopes to stereo equipment...REGARDLESS how much money you spend on stereo equipment, there is no such thing as PERFECT...it boils down to the reproduction of sonic abberration that is most pleasing to you. My $13,000 DVD player (Tag McLaren) is arguably one of the best around...yet the owner of a $10,000 Halcro, or $25,000 Meridian may argue theirs is the best. Indeed, hi-end stereo websites are much like this one...and if the opinions of everyones "best" were to be considered gospel.....you would have to buy them ALL! lol

Gary




Just giving my personal opinion.

jc


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HAC
professor emeritus


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: badsnoopy]
      #474392 - 06/13/05 09:33 AM

Quote:

Hey Rich you talk so much about comparing scopes that it suprises me that you made that last comment. I agree that if your going to compare scopes all things must be made as equal as possible. I think that is all Danial was trying to say. AP may be a great scope but they aren't SO much better than everyone else out there just because they have the AP on the side of the scope.

Like Gary said at this point the differences between these top scope makers aren't that huge. It simply comes down to which scope best meets what you want. Me there is no way no how I would wait 5 years for a scope. It may be the best out there but that is not for me.




And, I do not think AP is a better performer, for visual. AP's are designed as astrographs, as such they do compromise a bit in the visual realm. I'm sure many may disagree, but again, my personal experience with AP's did not show any improvement in information rendered over a Tak doublet except for color correction. And here the difference is often overstated and conclusions are extrapolated. Individuals see some slight hairline of color under certain conditions and think it's the end all be all of performance, it isn't.

Again, just my personal experience.

Take care,
john


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #474403 - 06/13/05 09:46 AM

Quote:

Thanks All,
Well it seems there is no best of the best !
The information so far has been outstanding.

Regards Bill.




Well Bushy, seems not yet seems so. You should see the mess I'm in over in the EP forum by equating eyepiece performance to a standard test procedure in order to determine the best. Everything is a matter of opinion no matter how perfect the performance is guaged by standard criteria.

Take the Meade Micro-focus. Rave reviews and perfect by most user standards. I just don't get it. You have to dance on a keyboard to focus taking your eye off the target. So I get everything perfectly centered and adjust focus to make a Cannon 300D exposure. Need to tweak the focus just a bit, press a button and off we go in a slew. Forgot (again) that the handbox is not in focus mode. So while others love it, I took it off and put a FeatherTouch on.

But in the end opinion is a good thing. If we all had the same opinion we would all try to marry the same person. Ouch!

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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BushyBill
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #474423 - 06/13/05 10:19 AM

Jerry that was funny !!

Best Wishes Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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BushyBill
sage


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #474433 - 06/13/05 10:35 AM

Hey John, you got guts !! in what you said, Love your use of the word (extrapolated)-- to infer some thing not known.
I looked it up.
Regards Bill

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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HAC
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/07/05
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #474446 - 06/13/05 10:54 AM

Quote:

Hey John, you got guts !! in what you said, Love your use of the word (extrapolated)-- to infer some thing not known.
I looked it up.
Regards Bill




Hey Bill,

Thanks. There are many designs out there that are excellent. You will not be dissappointed no matter which direction you turn. My guess is, 99.9% of the time you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other.

At this point you would be better served by looking at issues such as availability, physical characteristics (like weight), and last but definitely not least - customer service.

If I were you, the next thing I would do is pick up the phone and talk to people like Thomas Back, Vic Maris, Al Nagler, and perhaps the fine folks at Texas Nautical, Anacortes et. al. (for the Takahashi) . It would surely focus your attention on issues of far greater import to you then will the continued hair splitting that this thread will undoubtedly continue to provide.

Good luck and best wishes,
john


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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #474512 - 06/13/05 11:55 AM

Quote:

The SV-152 is built like a tank, (etc...)




Hi Gary.
I agree. SV refractors are built that way. Even their smallest models are amazingly heavy for their size.
Comparing the A-P 155 f/7 with the SV 152, the weight of the A-P OTA (with 2.7" focuser) is listed as 23 lbs, while the SV is 34 lbs. The TMB 152mm with CNC tube is similarly heavy.
The extra weight could be considered as a drawback for some observers. Do users need such heavy OTA's to get best results? Is tube flexure really an issue?
I'd prefer the lightest OTA that does the job, without sacrificing image quality or mechanical quality and durability.
But, that's largely because I'm lazy.


Clive.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and two curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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BushyBill
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #474559 - 06/13/05 12:36 PM

Thanks again John liked your last statment !

Clive I'm a bit lazy to- so your information well received, hope your ED100 is 100mm.

Have fun on planet earth Bill,

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: HAC]
      #474744 - 06/13/05 03:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Rich you talk so much about comparing scopes that it suprises me that you made that last comment. I agree that if your going to compare scopes all things must be made as equal as possible. I think that is all Danial was trying to say. AP may be a great scope but they aren't SO much better than everyone else out there just because they have the AP on the side of the scope.

Like Gary said at this point the differences between these top scope makers aren't that huge. It simply comes down to which scope best meets what you want. Me there is no way no how I would wait 5 years for a scope. It may be the best out there but that is not for me.




And, I do not think AP is a better performer, for visual. AP's are designed as astrographs, as such they do compromise a bit in the visual realm. I'm sure many may disagree, but again, my personal experience with AP's did not show any improvement in information rendered over a Tak doublet except for color correction. And here the difference is often overstated and conclusions are extrapolated. Individuals see some slight hairline of color under certain conditions and think it's the end all be all of performance, it isn't.

Again, just my personal experience.

Take care,
john




My experience was a little different with those two telescopes. But, the differences visually were very small.

One night a few years ago we had both telescopes out at a favorite observing site. Both scopes were aimed at Jupiter. I was trying to see a difference in the images. Both were showing white ovals in the area below the SEB very well. Where I could see a noticable difference was a close double star and the twe stars were a of different brightness, but not a huge difference in brightness. The star images were a little cleaner in AP. Both scopes were easily showing a clean separation. It just seemed there was less glow round each star in the AP. The AP did have a 3mm aperture advantage. The differences between the two that night were very small to the point I wouldn't mind having either scope.

In my case the sample size was, and usually is, very small. It isn't as if I was comparing 20 of each model of telescope.

When comparing two telescopes I look to see which shows me more planetary detail or makes it easier to see an unequal double, etc. I don't say, oh one has more color.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/13/05 04:14 PM)


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HAC
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474772 - 06/13/05 03:57 PM

And, I do not think AP is a better performer, for visual. AP's are designed as astrographs, as such they do compromise a bit in the visual realm. I'm sure many may disagree, but again, my personal experience with AP's did not show any improvement in information rendered over a Tak doublet except for color correction. And here the difference is often overstated and conclusions are extrapolated. Individuals see some slight hairline of color under certain conditions and think it's the end all be all of performance, it isn't.

Again, just my personal experience.

Take care,
john




My experience is a little different with those two telescopes. But, the differences visually are very small.

When comparing two telescopes I look to see which shows me more planetary detail or makes it easier to see an unequal double, etc. I don't say, oh one has more color.

Rich




I'm not surprised. But I guess everyone is different. There are very detailed reviews out there for people to look at, but basic design considerations play a fundamental role in various performance characteristics. Mixing them together does make it difficult to discern consistent differences.

For example, Todd Gross preferred his FCT 150 to the AP, Ed Ting perferred the AP.

Dave Novelesky preffered the views of the TAK FSQ & TMB 100mm F/8 to the Traveler. The differences, while subtle, were also obvious.

But then Dave N. preferred the 6"AP to the Tak FS152.

So, often, those who own AP's will tell you they are the best and those who own TAK's will likely tell you they are the best. But I think the astute consumer will be able to glean patterns from various sources and make informed decisions based on their needs. At least one would hope so.

But then again, many probably (and rightfully) good give a rats *&^%$&.

Take care,
john


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: HAC]
      #474802 - 06/13/05 04:25 PM

The Traveler is pretty darned fast. It isn't optomized for planetary observing. I would put my Tak FC-100 up against a Traveler for showing planetary detail. OTOH, the Traveler would be a lot easier to take on an airplane.

This is one reason I've never bought a Traveler. My FC-100 gives me great images for an almost 4" telescope and I don't fly with telescopes. If I did fly with telescopes I would likely take something relatively cheap and easy to replace. Like taking my TV-76 rather than my AP Stowaway. :-)

Rich


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: HAC]
      #474813 - 06/13/05 04:33 PM

Someone may not be judging their scope as the winner just because it is theirs, but because they have spent more time behind the eyepiece of their scope. They may be catching excellent seeing more often.

Rich


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474843 - 06/13/05 04:52 PM

Quote:

The Traveler is pretty darned fast. It isn't optomized for planetary observing. I would put my Tak FC-100 up against a Traveler for showing planetary detail. OTOH, the Traveler would be a lot easier to take on an airplane.

This is one reason I've never bought a Traveler. My FC-100 gives me great images for an almost 4" telescope and I don't fly with telescopes. If I did fly with telescopes I would likely take something relatively cheap and easy to replace. Like taking my TV-76 rather than my AP Stowaway. :-)

Rich




This point is significant in apo contests...he who crosses three lines with the fastest optical system wins on technical merit, particularly for astrographs, IMHO. That's why the Traveler has the reputation it deserves for wide field perfection, long before the very excellent NP-101 or TMB105.

If f/8 to f/15 were fine for all mounting and FOV purposes, then there would not be much to debate. We could have stopped at Unitron in 1965.


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HAC
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474934 - 06/13/05 05:52 PM

Quote:

Someone may not be judging their scope as the winner just because it is theirs, but because they have spent more time behind the eyepiece of their scope. They may be catching excellent seeing more often.

Rich




I would be willing to wager that it happens far more often than not.

Take care,
john

--------------------
Bring Back The AP Waiting List Thread and Let Freedom Ring


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HAC
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #474936 - 06/13/05 05:54 PM

Quote:

The Traveler is pretty darned fast. It isn't optomized for planetary observing.




Exactly my point.

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Rusty
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: HAC]
      #475269 - 06/13/05 10:52 PM

Is it just me, or does anyone else concur that the individual's eyeballs are the weak link in the optical train?

I have only a puny 80mm APO, but were I considering a 6" (+/-) APO, I think price and construction would prevail over miniscule differences in optical quality....

("Flame Shields UP, Mr. Scott")

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #475348 - 06/14/05 12:13 AM

Quote:

Is it just me, or does anyone else concur that the individual's eyeballs are the weak link in the optical train?

I have only a puny 80mm APO, but were I considering a 6" (+/-) APO, I think price and construction would prevail over miniscule differences in optical quality....

("Flame Shields UP, Mr. Scott")





Those are certainly considerations that get factored in, but when someone decides that they want a 6" apo, premium optics become an obsession. Spending $6K - $15K for a 150mm telescope already abandons any aperture/dollar logic, and perfection becomes the holy grail. Visually (and probably for imaging as well), one may wish to think they are using the best available optics during limited time spent under clear, dark skies.

I'm not beholden to any one manufacturer, and anyone that builds the next leap forward in apos will likely get my money. It's still cheaper than a full rigged bass boat.


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Daniel Mounsey
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #475465 - 06/14/05 04:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Rich you talk so much about comparing scopes that it suprises me that you made that last comment. I agree that if your going to compare scopes all things must be made as equal as possible. I think that is all Danial was trying to say. AP may be a great scope but they aren't SO much better than everyone else out there just because they have the AP on the side of the scope.

Like Gary said at this point the differences between these top scope makers aren't that huge. It simply comes down to which scope best meets what you want. Me there is no way no how I would wait 5 years for a scope. It may be the best out there but that is not for me.




My comment was aimed at Daniel saying that AP is making a 160mm telescope and apparently he thinks they are cheating by putting in "the 6 inch class". I have no idea where he has read or heard that Astro-Physics is putting their new 160mm in "the 6 inch class".

I appreciate the difficulty of comparing telescopes of different sizes... but this is not an attempt to pull the wool over someones eyes by making a 160mm telescope.

Here is the headline from the AP website for their 160mm.

"ASTRO-PHYSICS 160mm f7.5 Starfire EDF – 6.3" aperture (160EDF)"

AP and other telescope makers (TEC) size their telescopes to meet the needs and interests of their customers.

Rich




Hi Rich,
I understand what your saying. I don't wonna get into a yelling batch here. Allow me to share something. Comparing scopes is fun and it should not be looked upon as a diversion from observing and I certainly have not allowed it to become that. There's nothing wrong with making these detailed comparisons. We all do it. That's what cloudynights is about. 6" telescopes have been a traditional size which have been carried out for many decades. If companies want to make odd sizes, then that's their business. All I'm saying is that it takes the fun out of the comparisons because it limits the competition. I honestly believe this is why they make these odd ball sizes. I believe companies don't want their scopes being compared to others is the same size class. Even though it's 6.3" it is still considered a 6" telescope no different than the FSQ is still considered a 4" telescope. When someone tells you to be at a place at a certain time, do they tell you to be there at 11:46 or a quarter to 12? Humans have a natural impulse to round off numbers and business's are very smart and tactful at this kind of marketing approach. Roland knows fine well that his scope will have an edge over any other 6" scopes while being compared and I'd have no shame in telling him myself. OK, so there's a TEC 160. That stacks pretty small against how many scopes are closer to the true 6" range. Don't forget that we're all just having fun with these comparisons, that's all. Do you think the companies are having fun with them? I certainly don't. I think they get fedup with our yacking about small percentages, but those small percentages mean a lot to purists who are really into this and who enjoy making these comparisons.

--------------------


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #475499 - 06/14/05 06:39 AM

>>>>All I'm saying is that it takes the fun out of the comparisons because it limits the competition. I honestly believe this is why they make these odd ball sizes. I believe companies don't want their scopes being compared to others is the same size class.
------
Daniel:

In my view a telescope is a telescope, if one is bigger than another one, so be it, that does not mean one cannot compare one with the other, it is just a different comparison. If AP achieves noticeably better views by going to a 160mm rather than a 152.4mm objective then I say more power to AP.

I wonder how of people actually measure the effective diameter when making comparisons, my guess is that most depend upon the manufacturers.

Racing is a fun way to go but as Dennis Connor proved several years ago with his Catamaran, it can become very in-bred and the superior piece of equipment does not fit in the classification but provides the end user with a better product at a significantly better price.

Your comparisons between refractors and Newtonians are instructive in this regard. While the differences between the various 6 inch APO's is relatively small, the differences between an APO and larger but less expensive Newtonian can be quite significant.

In my view, the important variables are the practical ones, cost and physical size. What's the best planetary scope for $1500 or what is the best planetary scope that will fit in a Ford Escort....

jon

--------------------


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Daniel Mounsey]
      #475693 - 06/14/05 11:03 AM

Daniel:

Your point about comparing scopes is valid to me. I think that that when you are going to spend the money for a premium larger aperture APO you intuitively become interested in details such as you describe. I would not be interested in comparing my 8" f/6 Newt to any other scope. It works well enough for what it does, it was a bargain, and I don't have any high expectations for it. If I were to purchase a 5 or 6" APO, all of a sudden I would be interested in detailed comparisons and other factors.

If I were to decide between two Newtonians that were 10mm of aperture apart (in the less than $1200 price range lets say) I would not spend near as much time reading reviews and comparisons as I would if I was considering a Tak 152 and the AP 160. The cost and expectations would immediately become a factor in the decision.

I would consider how a 160mm aperture scope differed in reivews compared to a 152mm scope if they were APOs at that price level. I remember reading reviews of he 11" SCT and 12" SCT and I eventually took the increased aperture out of the equation as a purchasing factor.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #475733 - 06/14/05 11:33 AM

I really stirred up opinion on the EP forum with a resolution reading approach for various EPs in a given scope. The performance of different EPs doesn't seem to match conventional expectations in every case.

So, not being too smart, I plan to run the same resolution test on a Tak FS102 next to a C 9.25 XLT on a Losmandy side by side dovetail. There are so many parameters affecting OTA selection. I think resolving capability with different EPs would be a "nice to know" when comparing two popular scopes. (Maybe this will help decide between a FS 152 and RCX 10".)

I'll post it as soon as the Pentax EP comes in to test with the other EPs.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Rusty
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #476526 - 06/14/05 10:53 PM

Quote:


Those are certainly considerations that get factored in, but when someone decides that they want a 6" apo, premium optics become an obsession. Spending $6K - $15K for a 150mm telescope already abandons any aperture/dollar logic, and perfection becomes the holy grail. Visually (and probably for imaging as well), one may wish to think they are using the best available optics during limited time spent under clear, dark skies.

I'm not beholden to any one manufacturer, and anyone that builds the next leap forward in apos will likely get my money. It's still cheaper than a full rigged bass boat.




I didn't elaborate on my point very well, which is, "At what point to the differences become either unnoticeable or immeasureable?" As for me, I think I could live with a Tak, TEC, TMB, or AP in the 150-160mm range, and not be concerned that someone else might have a slightly better OTA.

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #476644 - 06/15/05 12:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Those are certainly considerations that get factored in, but when someone decides that they want a 6" apo, premium optics become an obsession. Spending $6K - $15K for a 150mm telescope already abandons any aperture/dollar logic, and perfection becomes the holy grail. Visually (and probably for imaging as well), one may wish to think they are using the best available optics during limited time spent under clear, dark skies.

I'm not beholden to any one manufacturer, and anyone that builds the next leap forward in apos will likely get my money. It's still cheaper than a full rigged bass boat.




I didn't elaborate on my point very well, which is, "At what point to the differences become either unnoticeable or immeasureable?" As for me, I think I could live with a Tak, TEC, TMB, or AP in the 150-160mm range, and not be concerned that someone else might have a slightly better OTA.




Ok, let's say you spent $8k on an OTA and you look through another OTA that is a little better. You wouldn't think "Darn, I could have had that OTA.. if had only known"?

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/15/05 12:48 AM)


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #476650 - 06/15/05 12:46 AM

The answer is.. now that you know brand x is better, you buy brand x and sell your brand y.

Rich


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #476804 - 06/15/05 06:29 AM


But if you want brand X and when it finally arrives you are thinking more about retirement than astronomy????

Out here in the outback of the South, there aren't many 6" APOs. I have a Losmandy side by side mount with a C 9.25 on one side and the Tak FS 102II on the other. For two nights running the Tak has shown more detail (not as bright for sure) on Jupiter and small detail on the moon. If one were to order the FS 152 do you think it would be a little better on deep sky?

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #476806 - 06/15/05 06:35 AM

But, the FS-152 would look really cool.

Rich


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NHRob
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #476813 - 06/15/05 06:48 AM

I've owned the FS-152. I found it a lot lighter than other I expected. Very nice visual apo. Exquisite contrast!

Rob

--------------------
Rob ... my avatar pic is me ... on a good day!
**********************
Canon 12x36 IS binos
Spooner 6.5" f/8.6 dob w/Dobstuff mount
Past Scopes:
Starstructure 14.5", Starmaster 14.5", 10" f/6 Zambuto homemade dob
AP130EDSF, AP130EDT, Traveller, AP152 f/9, 6" AP Christen triplet,FS-102(x2),FC-100,FS-152,TOA-130,TEC-140(x2),TV-101, TV-102,TV-76,TV-85, WO Z80FD, SV105/LZOS, WOLZOS100/800, TEC-6,TEC200/15,MN56,APM130/1200/LZOS,Mewlon180, Jaegers 6" f/15 achro, Palermiti 6" f/15 achro



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Rusty
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #477864 - 06/15/05 10:58 PM

Quote:

Ok, let's say you spent $8k on an OTA and you look through another OTA that is a little better. You wouldn't think "Darn, I could have had that OTA.. if had only known"?

Rich




I agree - my point is - for me at least - I don't think I could tell the differences among the premium APOs....

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #478044 - 06/16/05 01:52 AM

Unfortunately the last couple of years my vision has changed and I would have a more difficult time seeing very small differences. Although, the problem is fixable.

Rich


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #478150 - 06/16/05 08:33 AM

Quote:

Unfortunately the last couple of years my vision has changed and I would have a more difficult time seeing very small differences. Although, the problem is fixable.

Rich




I have noticed that too. Something about that half century thing. I call it Denk vision (built in binoviewers). On a clear night holding my left hand over the left eye and looking at a nice half moon with the right eye there are two very nice moons. Right hand over right eye and a view with the left eye shows 4 very nice moons. The younger guys don't know what they are missing. It makes splitting close binarys a no brainer ("yea, I got two, you don't").

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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BushyBill
sage


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #478246 - 06/16/05 10:01 AM

What is interesting my 6" F/10 newt with its tiny diaginal that moves up & down with the focuser does give as good, or better views, on same temp " nights, as a 4 " refractor Apo

So the big question is !
Whould a 8" F8 with a great mirror Match a 6" Apo on a night that the 8" performed at its best ?
If this could be true I would save save a fortune over a top line Apo 6".

Have fun out There Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #482212 - 06/19/05 01:38 PM

Quote:

Ok, let's say you spent $8k on an OTA and you look through another OTA that is a little better. You wouldn't think "Darn, I could have had that OTA.. if had only known"?

Rich





Again, the differences between Stellarvue, TMB, TAK, AP, TEC, at 5-6" are in all likelihood not differences in benchmark optical quality, but rather in how each may uniquely manage that last meager drop of abberration that will exist in any optical system. Whereas one might ultimately end up 'cool' and another 'warm' in its presentation, does not necessarily make one optically superior to the other, but rather, leaves the decision of PREFERENCE up to the buyer. I liken the decision of high end APO's to high-end stereo equipment: If you are considering Halcro, Meridian, Tag McLaren, Mark Levinson, Burmiester, etc..you are in rarified company of audio excellence; but each will still have its own unique sonic signature, and it becomes a question of which "signature/abberration" you find most pleasing to your own individual ears.

If all the top high end APO producers made a 130mm, f/6, 3.5" Feather Touch focuser, same dielectric diagonal; and the end-user utilized the same EP's across the board with each of them; I would venture to say the differences would be so negligible that all that would be left to differentiate the scopes would be subjective preferences due to the predilictions of each individual observer.

Disclaimer: "I could be wrong"

Gary


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ngc6475
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #482333 - 06/19/05 03:47 PM

Quote: "If all the top high end APO producers made a 130mm, f/6, 3.5" Feather Touch focuser, same dielectric diagonal; and the end-user utilized the same EP's across the board with each of them; I would venture to say the differences would be so negligible that all that would be left to differentiate the scopes would be subjective preferences due to the predilictions of each individual observer."

Exactly. The very fact that every top-end apo manufacturer does not use the same tubes, focusers, finders, rings, focal lengths, etc. makes the final decision even more subjective. Ultimately, it's a personal choice that is based upon the buyer's own peculiar mix of needs, wants, and resources.

--------------------
Walter

"There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls."
-George Carlin



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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #482458 - 06/19/05 06:31 PM

>>>Again, the differences between Stellarvue, TMB, TAK, AP, TEC, at 5-6" are in all likelihood not differences in benchmark optical quality, but rather in how each may uniquely manage that last meager drop of abberration that will exist in any optical system.
-----

Actually I am not sure this is true. For example, it is my understanding that not all manufacturers go to the extra trouble to measure the properties of each melt of glass and redesign the lens curves using that data. At that level, some are going that final distance, some are not.

Jon

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celestial_search
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #482519 - 06/19/05 07:33 PM

Jon:

Good point. Trying to nail down the quality of various lenses is difficult. I've read reviews referring to the varying quality control of Russian-made lenses. ED glass, fluorite glass, etc. can also complicate the equation. I still have not figured out all the details of the Takahashi-Canon process.

If you read the reviews of experienced imagers vs. visual observers it can get quite complicated to understand why one type is preferred over another.

I think you hit upon an important aspect of refractor-making, however. What lens selection and quality-control measures do SV and Takahashi, for example, rely on that are different from other APO makers? I've read some of the reviews by Ed Ting and other experienced observers several times for hints about why they perceived one telescope's view to be slightly better than another's. Sometimes it is hard to discern between subjective and objective remarks.

There has to be more to the picture than just different OTAs and mechanics. Your term "going the final distance" is an elusive but highly plausible explanation for differences among the premium APOs.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #482578 - 06/19/05 08:47 PM

I tyhink Vic, Roland, Tom, et al; each go the final distance when it comes to configuring their lenses, this is indeed exactly what makes them 'hi-end refractors'. I am not certain of my following statement, but I would suspect that the differences are not in the extra measures taken, but rather, in what optical THEORY of design one wishes to suscribe too. The optician is faced with many "trade-offs" and compromises, and the theory behind the resolution of abberrations and its implementation in figuring the lenses I would think be the final differentation. The decision gets more complicated when a choice is made for correction leaning towards visual work, or leaning towards imaging. Since these are indeed PREMIUM apo's, you tend to pay more because they are more specifically corrected. Perhaps. Could be. Ya think?

Gary


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #482732 - 06/19/05 11:12 PM

>>>I tyhink Vic, Roland, Tom, et al; each go the final distance when it comes to configuring their lenses, this is indeed exactly what makes them 'hi-end refractors'.
-----

I have a different viewpoint. I think there is no one that knows more about every stage of design, glass selection and testing, manufacturing and final optical figuring and assembly than Roland Christen. He has been doing it longer, he is right there in control of every step and he has a total committment to making the finest scope he can.

I am not knocking others, I am very sure that I would be extremely happy with any APO. However when it comes to going that last mile at every stage of design and manufacture, he is the one who is in the position not only know how to do it but to do it.

And too, consider that companies that use outside vendors to produce the optics are not in a position to have the same sort of QC that a company who makes everything does.

You might enjoy reading Thomas Back's essay on the history of Astro-Physics, it is a bit dated and only discusses the optics, not the mounts etc but it provides some real perspective, not only on AP but on TMB as well as he was buying AP scopes for his own use as an observer.

http://voltaire.csun.edu/tmb/tmb1.html

Again, this is not to bad mouth other manufacturers, I am sure I would be happy as a clam to own any of their scopes. But there is history here that at least some may not be aware of, others of course might well have been right there.

jon

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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #482817 - 06/20/05 01:39 AM

Very interesting and informative article....thanks for sharing it. Everyone knows Roland is among the best at what he does, and although I cannot rattle off the names of Master Opticians, I am sure not every platform in the world (scientific/military) is Roland designed optics. This leads me to beleive there just might be equally gifted individuals/subcontractors. And not taking away from AP in the least, I am not entirely sure that figuring the optics in-house translates into better quality control or not, because a designer whom outsources the figuring, still has the ability to test and verify that his exacting specifications were met or exceeded. To illustrate this point further...neither Roland nor Tom manufacture their own glass, rather, they buy it from outside sources. I am sure each though assures the quality of the glass upon arrival. The point being, if one aspect of the process can be taken out of their hands without qualitative degradation,...i am reasonably certain that 2 steps could be removed as well. Bottom line...we are hair-splitting...they all make fantastic APO's, and even the best reviewers cannot come back saying..."the AP kicked Taks butt and made it look like a tinker toy by comparison"...

Gary


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #482945 - 06/20/05 08:34 AM

>>>>And not taking away from AP in the least, I am not entirely sure that figuring the optics in-house translates into better quality control or not, because a designer whom outsources the figuring, still has the ability to test and verify that his exacting specifications were met or exceeded. To illustrate this point further...neither Roland nor Tom manufacture their own glass, rather, they buy it from outside sources. I am sure each though assures the quality of the glass upon arrival. The point being, if one aspect of the process can be taken out of their hands without qualitative degradation.
-------

A few points.

1. The glass that Roland gets comes to his facility and he does have it tested and he decides whether or not to keep it. Roland has tossed complete purchases of glass because they did not meet his standards. Since the TMB lenses are fabricated in Russia, it would seem that TMB is in a position where he is dependent upon the optical fabricators to test and decide upon the glass.

2. It is true that the designer who outsources his optics still has the opportunity to test it and refigure it. But the sort of tests that Roland does, full interferometric, as he does the final figuring on each piece of glass is quite different than what others are in a position to do.

TEC is also in a similar position to Astro-Physics in that they do everything in house so they have the control over not only the design but the fabrication and testing. In my book, this is part of what it takes to go that last step.

I don't have a problem with optics that have been outsourced, I am sure they are very good, better than anything I have. But, I also know that if you want to have something done exactly the way you want it done, the only way is to do it in house with people you work with on a daily basis with a committment.

In my book, there is no doubt that RC is totally committed to going the full distance necessary to make the best possible optics. He has put himself in a position to have the best equipment to make sure each and every optical component meets his standards. Whether this makes a significant differnce in the final product, I am not qualified to say.

Jon

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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #482971 - 06/20/05 09:02 AM


How does Takahashi do it?

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Chris G
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #482997 - 06/20/05 09:31 AM

I do know that when SV gets lenses they've been inspected by Markus Ludes at APM then they inspect the lenses and send the back anything that doesn't meet their standards.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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HAC
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #483012 - 06/20/05 10:04 AM

I think any of the high-end producers test their glass and decided whether or not to keep it. I doubt very seriuosly it rolls in and they just pop it in an OTA.

I have looked through many fine Apo's and, not unlike eyepieces, it is exceedingly difficult to discern differences in performance.

Some design considerations like f-ratio or astrophotographical use do impact one's choices. But no single manufacturer has some magical process that just puts them ahead of everyone else. All optics have compromises somewhere in their design but I see very few compromises, if any, when it comes to production amongst the high-end group. If there are, it isn't showing up in the final product.

Take care,
john


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ngc2289
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #483022 - 06/20/05 10:10 AM

I think you are missing the point! You can have control of all the processes and test everything before hand. But it is still the last test after everything has been assembled that counts! If the lense dose not pass this last test then all the previous tests are for nought. The only real advantage to having control over all steps is that fewer lenses will be rejected at the end! But to suggest that any manufacter that dose not control all steps are some how producing a inferior product is erroneous. It is the criteria that they use to judge the final product that will determine the quality of what you will see in the eyepiece! If there final standards are high then the lense will be of high quality. Ok I will now get off the soap box. Clear skies.

--------------------
Mike Traub(Mr. Congeniality): I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it!:Shipfitters mottos; Cut to suit, pound to fit, paint to hide!: If it dosen't fit get a bigger hammer!......Retired and BROKE!!!!!!!!:SV 80DL Triplet:6" f/6 Home built newt.:PST: UniversalAstronomics UniStar Deluxe.


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Chris G
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ngc2289]
      #483034 - 06/20/05 10:23 AM

Quote:

I think you are missing the point! You can have control of all the processes and test everything before hand. But it is still the last test after everything has been assembled that counts! If the lense dose not pass this last test then all the previous tests are for nought. The only real advantage to having control over all steps is that fewer lenses will be rejected at the end! But to suggest that any manufacter that dose not control all steps are some how producing a inferior product is erroneous. It is the criteria that they use to judge the final product that will determine the quality of what you will see in the eyepiece! If there final standards are high then the lense will be of high quality. Ok I will now get off the soap box. Clear skies.




Very good point, it is the final star test after all that determines whether or not a scope meets the acceptance criteria for the manufacturer.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #483072 - 06/20/05 10:52 AM

I need a refractor that is collimated improperly to offset my astigmatism, and one with lots of CA to compense for my color-blindness! LOL (j/k)

So, have we decided that the BEST 6" APO is: AP 155, TAK TOA 150, SV-152, TMB 152, and TEC 140/160 as all tied for 1st place? Now, once you wait 5 years to get your AP, will it still be the BEST? There is little wait time on either the TEC or the TAK, and the TMB and SV have about a 1 year wait.

Personally, I am on the waiting list for the AP-160, but not because I feel it is any better then the others mentioned, but only because the general public perception has elevated the AP to some mythical status that makes it the instrument with the greatest re-sale value should at some later date I wish to trade up to something else. When/if I ever get the thing, it will be interesting to A-B it against my SV 130. In fact, rather then a visual a-b comparison that is rife with subjective errors, it would be even more interesting to take them both to an optical lab and have them tested thoroughly. I would venture to bet that benchmarks would be darn near identical!

So whats the very best 10" APO?

Gary


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Chris G
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483086 - 06/20/05 11:11 AM

Quote:

So whats the very best 10" APO?




Probably a 10" Starmaster with a Zambuto mirror.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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ngc2289
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483089 - 06/20/05 11:12 AM

Whats this 10" APO nonsense. Since APM now has a 21" APO ( at least on order). This should now be who makes the best 21" APO thread.

--------------------
Mike Traub(Mr. Congeniality): I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it!:Shipfitters mottos; Cut to suit, pound to fit, paint to hide!: If it dosen't fit get a bigger hammer!......Retired and BROKE!!!!!!!!:SV 80DL Triplet:6" f/6 Home built newt.:PST: UniversalAstronomics UniStar Deluxe.


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Chris G
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ngc2289]
      #483111 - 06/20/05 11:26 AM

Quote:

Whats this 10" APO nonsense. Since APM now has a 21" APO ( at least on order). This should now be who makes the best 21" APO thread.




My head hurts!

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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celestial_search
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #483114 - 06/20/05 11:31 AM

Jerry:

I've been investigating that but details are not available. Takahashi worked with Canon on the fluorite lens to some degree.

Chris:
I would think that a final star test is simply a quality control check at the end of the telescope making process. But how do we know that such tests are always performed and if they were, how "quick" or superficial were they? If you read through the last six months reviews and discussions of refractors in the CN Refractor forum you will find cases where the supposedly "every scope is star tested by ..." could not have been performed, because if the test was performed the tester must have been sleeping (i.e. there were problems that should have been caught by the test). In some cases there were missing screws or other small, but irksome things that immediately made an impression in one's mind given the price of the scope.

When I ordered my Tak, the owner of the business (Tak Dealer) said that they offer to check every scope before it leaves. I said that would be fine. When the boxes arrived (ultra well-packed by Takahashi) I could instantly see that the boxes (all three of them) had never been opened. The road to h... is paved with good intentions.

If you read a Takahashi serial number/inspection card, you cannot fail to be impressed. Even that card is professional. I would wager that my scope was definitely quality control checked based on the professionalism in every aspect of the product. One thing that impressed me about Taks was that I never found one negative review nor one case of any quality control issue.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ngc2289]
      #483189 - 06/20/05 12:46 PM

>>>I think you are missing the point! You can have control of all the processes and test everything before hand. But it is still the last test after everything has been assembled that counts! If the lense dose not pass this last test then all the previous tests are for nought. The only real advantage to having control over all steps is that fewer lenses will be rejected at the end!
------

I don't think I am missing the point at all. Certainly the last test is the one that tells the story. But it only says whether the optics was properly made. It is all those tests leading up to the final assembly that determine whether the final tests will show a good optic.

The last test is not necessarily a star test, I think that a full interferometic test will tell more about the optics than a star test to someone who knows how to intepret the data...

Jon Isaacs

--------------------


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HAC
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483258 - 06/20/05 01:43 PM

Quote:

I need a refractor that is collimated improperly to offset my astigmatism, and one with lots of CA to compense for my color-blindness! LOL (j/k)

So, have we decided that the BEST 6" APO is: AP 155, TAK TOA 150, SV-152, TMB 152, and TEC 140/160 as all tied for 1st place? Now, once you wait 5 years to get your AP, will it still be the BEST? There is little wait time on either the TEC or the TAK, and the TMB and SV have about a 1 year wait.

Personally, I am on the waiting list for the AP-160, but not because I feel it is any better then the others mentioned, but only because the general public perception has elevated the AP to some mythical status that makes it the instrument with the greatest re-sale value should at some later date I wish to trade up to something else. When/if I ever get the thing, it will be interesting to A-B it against my SV 130. In fact, rather then a visual a-b comparison that is rife with subjective errors, it would be even more interesting to take them both to an optical lab and have them tested thoroughly. I would venture to bet that benchmarks would be darn near identical!

So whats the very best 10" APO?

Gary




Very wise Grasshopper.


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #483274 - 06/20/05 01:58 PM

Quote:


How does Takahashi do it?




Very well, I think.

In the case of fluorite doublets and FCT, Takahashi sources optics from Canon's Optron division. How much in-house tweaking happens beyond OTA assembly remains unknown, but clearly they build a smokin' telescope, in many variations, and have been doing it longer than AP or TMB.


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #483283 - 06/20/05 02:16 PM

Ok, I will but this whole thing to rest.....the BEST APO is the one that resides at the limits of your budget and the one that gets used the most. Makes no difference to the end-user if that $50,000 APO is "the best" if he only has $5,000 to spend! That being said, put up your money and lets then debate what is best for your budget! Afterall, dreams are nothing more then empty pockets full of wishes. To me, the "best" is sitting right here beside me, and if I thought it was less then the best, I would not have bought it. Again, when/if the AP 160 ever comes in, I will revise my notion of "the best" at that time, because 'best' does not count one iota if it is not available, it is mere vapor-ware.

Gary


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483311 - 06/20/05 02:38 PM

That being said, put up your money and lets then debate what is best for your budget!
-----------

Well, in that case there are those scopes that cheat and use mirrors..... :-)

jon

--------------------


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #483320 - 06/20/05 02:45 PM

LOL...tsk tsk on the "cheaters"! Newts are best bang for the buck visually, no doubt about it...just make for difficult astrographs (in general)

Gary


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483323 - 06/20/05 02:49 PM

Quote:

Ok, I will but this whole thing to rest.....the BEST APO is the one that resides at the limits of your budget and the one that gets used the most. Makes no difference to the end-user if that $50,000 APO is "the best" if he only has $5,000 to spend! That being said, put up your money and lets then debate what is best for your budget! Afterall, dreams are nothing more then empty pockets full of wishes. To me, the "best" is sitting right here beside me, and if I thought it was less then the best, I would not have bought it. Again, when/if the AP 160 ever comes in, I will revise my notion of "the best" at that time, because 'best' does not count one iota if it is not available, it is mere vapor-ware.

Gary




Gary, the AP160 is not "vapor-ware". They are being made and shipped to customers.

Rich


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #483361 - 06/20/05 03:19 PM

Its vapor-ware for ME cuz its still 4-5 years away! I am happy for those that have one in their hands now, but I am not one of those lucky ones at this time (sighs)

Gary


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483437 - 06/20/05 04:26 PM

OK...but AP155's are not 4-5 years away for sellers and buyers making a deal on AstroMart. Market price runs about $7K for the AP155 EDFS with standard 2.7" focuser.

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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #483565 - 06/20/05 06:07 PM

Not sure about astromart, I went straight to AP and also thru Company Seven. It is what it is, and it ain't what it ain't. If i get it in 2 years, all the better!

Gary


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483575 - 06/20/05 06:11 PM

BTW, just went to astromart, and yes, they had some 155's...1996 models....priced higher then currrent retail price. I will pass on "used equipment" with overinflated price tags.....personal preference....but I appreciate the information!

Gary


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #483635 - 06/20/05 07:10 PM

Quote:

BTW, just went to astromart, and yes, they had some 155's...1996 models....priced higher then currrent retail price. I will pass on "used equipment" with overinflated price tags.....personal preference....but I appreciate the information!

Gary




I feel the same way. My 160 is 4-5 out too. I've picked up all those Celestrons in my signature used. It's a lot easier to doubt used equipment. For that money I want to have it right from the "RC". But that Tak 152 on sale right now is looking better and better to help pass the time.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #483739 - 06/20/05 08:33 PM

OK, but the day after you get a brand new AP160 in the year 2011 it will be "used equipment". Jupiter doesn't really care...new or used works fine!

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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #483848 - 06/20/05 10:05 PM

New or used is not dependent on the heavens, astrology, warm-fuzzy feelings, or gut instinct.....it is more dependent on "condition, warranty, packing materials, shipping/shipping costs, etc etc". If i save a couple of thousand bucks on a $20,000 set-up, I don't really care...I would much rather pay the extra $2,000 and buy from a reputable dealer that can handle any warranty issues, take care of asundry details IF there should be a problem...or even help me evaluate IF there IS a problem. I don't buy used..in anything...never have...never will...But, this is MY personal preference; others are free to follow theirs...and I am sure there are many more success stories with used equipment then horror stories...I just do not want to even begin to risk the possibility of having a horror story to lament about.

Gary


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484095 - 06/21/05 01:48 AM

Quote:

New or used is not dependent on the heavens, astrology, warm-fuzzy feelings, or gut instinct.....it is more dependent on "condition, warranty, packing materials, shipping/shipping costs, etc etc". If i save a couple of thousand bucks on a $20,000 set-up, I don't really care...I would much rather pay the extra $2,000 and buy from a reputable dealer that can handle any warranty issues, take care of asundry details IF there should be a problem...or even help me evaluate IF there IS a problem. I don't buy used..in anything...never have...never will...But, this is MY personal preference; others are free to follow theirs...and I am sure there are many more success stories with used equipment then horror stories...I just do not want to even begin to risk the possibility of having a horror story to lament about.

Gary




Hi Gary,

Just being on the wait list (interest list?) does not mean you will get the OTA for the price being charged when you got on the wait list.

If you were on the production list and were asked to put money down, you would get the OTA for the stated price at the time you got on the production list.

If you picked up a used 155EDFS for $7.5k and a new standard Losmandy G11 mount, you could have the setup
for < $10k.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/21/05 01:53 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484146 - 06/21/05 03:22 AM

>>>But, this is MY personal preference; others are free to follow theirs...and I am sure there are many more success stories with used equipment then horror stories...I just do not want to even begin to risk the possibility of having a horror story to lament about.
-----

The implication is that buying new has no risk of having a horror story to lament about... I have never heard a horror story about anyone buying a used AP scope. Any problems can be readily taken care of by AP.

I have heard horror stories about buying new stuff from other vendors.

Jon

--------------------


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #484162 - 06/21/05 04:06 AM

Am I the only person in the world that lives brain dead behind the facade of false security?? LOL. If I want to beleive that living in a gated community makes me "safe", and that new is better then used...allow me my neurosis! *BLEEEP*, some people still beleive a Volvo is the safest car in the world, simply because they said so in an ad campaign (that has been subsequently banned)...but the neurotic myth still prevails!

RichN...by the time AP is ready for my money, I will probably have long had either an SV 152 or Tak TOA 150, and it will be irrelevant. I am merely sitting there 'just in case' Truth be told, by the time the AP does become available, someone will have to assist me over to it in my walker and give me physical therapy for an hour or so, so I would be able to stand up to look thru it..(provided that my cataracts arn't acting up and my glycoma perscription has been kept up to date...LOL)

Gary


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BushyBill
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Posts: 205
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484303 - 06/21/05 09:39 AM

Gary,
I did most enjoy your last post.
Thanks for the laughts. :

Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #484324 - 06/21/05 10:05 AM

my pleasure...."sonny"

Gary


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484348 - 06/21/05 10:22 AM

?? LOL. If I want to beleive that living in a gated community makes me "safe", and that new is better then used...allow me my neurosis! *
----

I have no problem with people sharing the neurosis here.

On the otherhand, I have my own neurosis and feel compelled to point out my believe/experience that "new is not necessarily better than used."

Jon

--------------------


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #484467 - 06/21/05 11:39 AM

Your obsessive-compulsive belaboring of this point is triggering panic attacks within me as you tread upon my paranoia phobias! ANd don't tell me there is no need to be paranoid, because i certainly wouldn't be if I wasn't 100% certain that you were out to get me!!!!!

LOL

Gary


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RRaubach
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484740 - 06/21/05 02:52 PM

Hey Bushy Bill!

I happen to own 2 APOs: a TMB 175 f/8, and a Takahashi TOA 130. What follows here is based on my personal experience with APOs.

I have had the TMB 175 for about a year now, and I still absolutely LOVE THIS SCOPE! The optics are truly incredible; I have never seen any trace of false color on any astronomical target (Venus, Vega, Sirius, Rigel, etc), and the ability to resolve close double stars is limited only by the seeing conditions. My waiting time , from order placement to delivery was around 7 weeks. I ordered mine directly from Thomas Back, one of the most cordial and honest gentlemen in the telescope industry.

The Takahashi TOA 130 also was a very good telescope, but not even in the same league as the TMB. Based on ergonomics, not optics.

I have also had occasion to use an Astro-Physics EDFS 130 f/6 Starfire scope; I was on the A-P wait list for one of these for 3 years, but I finally lost my patience and bought the equivalent Tak scope instead.

I have had no experience with any of the TEC scopes, but it is my understanding that there is a fairly long wait these days.

Takahashi has the TOA 150 available for 2005 delivery, but I have no info on the optical performance yet.

My advice, if you don't want to wait for 10% of your natural life, is to get a TMB. Just my 2 cents ---

Rodger

--------------------
Rodger

Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: RRaubach]
      #484776 - 06/21/05 03:16 PM

Hey Rodger,
I sure do envoy you , a 175mm Apo is a dream scope to me !,
As you stated no C.A. plus quick delivery.
Please give the Tac some light too.
Thanks for the info.

Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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RRaubach
AstroCowboy


Reged: 01/26/05
Posts: 2173
Loc: Douglas (Converse County),WY
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #484784 - 06/21/05 03:24 PM

I should have referred you to my review of the TMB 175 posted on this website under refractors.

I am currently planning to sell the Takahashi TOA 130 so that I can get either (a) a larger TMB , or (b) an Intes-Micro 12" Mak-Newt or Mak-Cas.

Rodger

--------------------
Rodger

Meade SN-10 (UHTC) on Tak EM-200 mount/Antares rotating rings. Moonlite focuser.
Parallax 14.5" Newtonian on HD 200 mount (arriving soon!) w/ conical Royce mirror.
TMB 203 f/7 APO refractor on Tak NJP-160 mount.
Discovery 12.5" PDHQ
Schneider 18x80 "Flakfernrohr" binoculars/tripod mounted. Canon 15x50 IS binoculars
Unihedron Sky Quality Meter


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #484789 - 06/21/05 03:27 PM

.....OR, the Stellarvue 152 (6 mo wait)...which uses the TMB lenses and is built (as TMB is), like a tank! Like Rosger said, Tom is an honest to goodness gentleman, and so too is Vic.

Personally, I like to be able to pick up the phone and speak with either Tom or Vic...I am not sure who I would ask for if I called TAK...errrrr...Mr. Takahashi I suppose, but I wonder if he is ever available? LOL

Gary


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2569
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484799 - 06/21/05 03:35 PM

Quote:

Personally, I like to be able to pick up the phone and speak with either Tom or Vic...I am not sure who I would ask for if I called TAK...errrrr...Mr. Takahashi I suppose, but I wonder if he is ever available? LOL
Gary




Which Mr. Takahashi? Mr. T. Takahashi, the Factory manager, or Mr. E. Takahashi the President?
Or you can call the owner of the shop where you buy it (such as Gary at Hands On Optics). He is available every day.
Or you can call Texas Nautical Repair, the U.S. Importer of Takahashi and get the owner.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #484803 - 06/21/05 03:37 PM

Now i know! (see, always good to raise the question!)

Gary


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Herenomore
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #484852 - 06/21/05 04:22 PM

Quote:

I...feel compelled to point out my believe/experience that "new is not necessarily better than used."

Jon



I'm reminded of the truth of this everytime I cruise through AstroMart or CN's classifieds

Tom


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Herenomore]
      #484893 - 06/21/05 05:16 PM

Pyschologically speaking, the expereince of "new" is regressive, somewhat akin to a primary archaic narcissism in which there is total interjection of the object without interevening conflicts imposed by the judicious and judgemental super-ego, thus heigtening the self-indulgent delights to a nirvana-like state that succeeds in suspending the intervention of rationality, forthwith extending a temporal dislocation to perpetuate a sustained bliss.

Remember when your car had that "new car" smell and you washed it every other day and waxed it once a week? Now that same once-beloved object is now little more then a trash can on wheels, a refuge from the elements for all manner of bugs and rodents, and you don't even care if your wife wants to drive the stupid old thing!

So, bringing this back around to topic...the very best 6" APO for ME, has the smell of fresh bubble wrap, the glean of a shimmering mist that hangs cloyingly to a silent lake and beckons one forward, that stands proudly in the corner, revealed fully for the first time by my own hands and stands as a testament of self-idoltary as one witnesses the unfolding of their own marked acheivement in their percieved unique corner of the universe...etc etc.

(i crack me up....LOL)

Gary


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484961 - 06/21/05 06:36 PM

New is nice. When you pop open an Astro-Phyiscs case for the first time there is a "new scope smell" that you won't forget.

However, I have an AP 130EDT and 155EDFS I'll be selling one of these days. There is nothing wrong with the way they perform. I just don't need two 155EDFS and two very similar 130s.

Rich


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nemo
sage


Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Eugene,Oregon
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #484988 - 06/21/05 07:03 PM

Gary,
In regards to a new telescope:
Anticipation can and is a welcomes change from the tedium of life. Also yes it usually seems like the wanting is more powerful than the having. Still the rodents are not sleeping in my TMB yet as it reclines in my Pelican case and by golly there will be no alluring mists touching my object of celestial delight.
Dan

--------------------
"Humility is not thinking less of your self-it is about thinking of yourself less."


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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: nemo]
      #485073 - 06/21/05 08:16 PM

That is the irony of always new, as there is nothing sadder than a pristine world class telescope imprisoned in its case, preserving the aroma of outgassing paint, vinyls and foam.

Still, even an old AP case retains a distinct fragrance, even as the telescope is taken in harm's way. Well used, but not abused is what they were created for.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster


Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #485087 - 06/21/05 08:26 PM

>>>Remember when your car had that "new car" smell and you washed it every other day and waxed it once a week?
---

One can have the same exact feelings about a "new" used car. It just depends upon your attitude....

Jon

--------------------


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Rusty
Postmaster


Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 19246
Loc: Brooker, FL
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #485194 - 06/21/05 09:44 PM

"New" vs. "Used"

Every scope everyone on CN owns is "used"...

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #485254 - 06/21/05 10:32 PM

(is there no humor here)?????? Surely you can't believe that I am serious, or even that these issues themselves are serious....do ya?

errrrr Rich, how much for the 155?? (<----THAT's serious though)

Gary


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JerryWise
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Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 9284
Loc: Lexington, SC
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #485360 - 06/21/05 11:21 PM

Quote:

(is there no humor here)?????? Surely you can't believe that I am serious, or even that these issues themselves are serious....do ya?






Quote:

(
errrrr Rich, how much for the 155?? (<----THAT's serious though)

Gary




I would like one of those too. Rich?

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #485388 - 06/21/05 11:32 PM

As much as I can get for it.

I hate the idea of putting it on a national list and dealing with someone very far away. That's part of the reason I've not tried to sell it. And, I don't know when I will get around to selling it.

But, I sincerely appreciate your interest.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/21/05 11:34 PM)


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jrcrillyAdministrator
Refractor wienie no more


Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #485398 - 06/21/05 11:36 PM

Quote:

"New" vs. "Used"

Every scope everyone on CN owns is "used"...




...and hopefully in both senses of the word.

--------------------
John C

Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery

AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
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Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: jrcrilly]
      #485403 - 06/21/05 11:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"New" vs. "Used"

Every scope everyone on CN owns is "used"...




...and hopefully in both senses of the word.




But not abused.

Rich


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JerryWise
Postmaster


Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 9284
Loc: Lexington, SC
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #485553 - 06/22/05 02:11 AM

Well guys, it's time to step up to the plate. EBay has an AP 155 here at 1,000 right now. I would suggest you look carefully at the feedback of the one rating and how it is also the same guy rating a 12" LX200 in a private auction. Total scam.

I would rather have Rich's AP 155.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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HAC
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/07/05
Posts: 534
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #485731 - 06/22/05 09:50 AM

"Total scam."

Could you be more specific? The AP155 or the guy selling it?


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JerryWise
Postmaster


Reged: 12/26/03
Posts: 9284
Loc: Lexington, SC
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: HAC]
      #485795 - 06/22/05 11:03 AM

I retract the "Total Scam" comment.

You are now free to bid as you like.

However, EBay figured it out and deleted the auction and the lister. Another good deal lost.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 1354
Loc: Germany
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: milt]
      #485887 - 06/22/05 12:01 PM

Hi Milt

you say the TMB is heavier then the others . This time is over since several monthes, the 6" TMB CNC of today weights only 26 lbs and is now withhin the weight of the competitions

best wishes
Markus Ludes

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 1354
Loc: Germany
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #485897 - 06/22/05 12:05 PM

Hi Jon,

you write:
----------------------
1. The glass that Roland gets comes to his facility and he does have it tested and he decides whether or not to keep it. Roland has tossed complete purchases of glass because they did not meet his standards. Since the TMB lenses are fabricated in Russia, it would seem that TMB is in a position where he is dependent upon the optical fabricators to test and decide upon the glass.

2. It is true that the designer who outsources his optics still has the opportunity to test it and refigure it. But the sort of tests that Roland does, full interferometric, as he does the final figuring on each piece of glass is quite different than what others are in a position to do.
-------------------------------

My reply :
1, every apo maker must work with the glas they get delivered from the glas melters and decite the glas is good enough or not. The TMB Apo Lens maker LZOS, is like Schott and Ohara one of the bigger glas maker companys and they melt the glas in the needet quality for the apos. This is a major advantage not available for any other apo maker

2, our Master Opticians doing excactly the same : the sort of tests that Roland does, full interferometric, as he does the final figuring on each piece of glass is quite different than what others are in a position to do.

so its not diffrent at all

just for clarification your statments

best wishes
Markus

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 1354
Loc: Germany
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #485902 - 06/22/05 12:07 PM

Hi Gary,

you wrote:
--------------
So, have we decided that the BEST 6" APO is: AP 155, TAK TOA 150, SV-152, TMB 152, and TEC 140/160 as all tied for 1st place? Now, once you wait 5 years to get your AP, will it still be the BEST? There is little wait time on either the TEC or the TAK, and the TMB and SV have about a 1 year wait.
------------------------
the wait time for a TMB 6" is non, we are able to ship new orders out from stock :-)

best wishes
Markus

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012


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Herenomore
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 1833
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #485908 - 06/22/05 12:10 PM

Quote:

Well guys, it's time to step up to the plate. EBay has an AP 155 here at 1,000 right now. I would suggest you look carefully at the feedback of the one rating and how it is also the same guy rating a 12" LX200 in a private auction. Total scam.



Ebay has removed the listing.


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APM M.Ludes
Vendor (APM Telescopes)


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 1354
Loc: Germany
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #485913 - 06/22/05 12:14 PM Attachment (73 downloads)

Clive,

you say : Comparing the A-P 155 f/7 with the SV 152, the weight of the A-P OTA (with 2.7" focuser) is listed as 23 lbs, while the SV is 34 lbs. The TMB 152mm with CNC tube is similarly heavy.


but our new TMB CNC 152 weights only 26 lbs and not anywhere near 34 lbs

Markus

Attachment

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012


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Chris G
Post Laureate


Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4555
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #485964 - 06/22/05 12:57 PM

Sweet scope Markus!

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless


Reged: 05/26/05
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #485966 - 06/22/05 12:57 PM

Quote:

Clive,

you say : Comparing the A-P 155 f/7 with the SV 152, the weight of the A-P OTA (with 2.7" focuser) is listed as 23 lbs, while the SV is 34 lbs. The TMB 152mm with CNC tube is similarly heavy.


but our new TMB CNC 152 weights only 26 lbs and not anywhere near 34 lbs

Markus




Thanks for the update, Markus.
I referenced the TMB 152 f/7.9 info at:
http://www.tmboptical.com/itemsRecord.asp?item_id=13&cat_id=4&
This lists the weight as 36.6 lbs, without accessories.

It's good to see the CNC option has shed some weight!
Do you know if the SV152 will go on a similar diet?

Thanks,

Clive.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and two curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #486089 - 06/22/05 02:32 PM

>>>My reply :
1, every apo maker must work with the glas they get delivered from the glas melters and decite the glas is good enough or not. The TMB Apo Lens maker LZOS, is like Schott and Ohara one of the bigger glas maker companys and they melt the glas in the needet quality for the apos. This is a major advantage not available for any other apo maker

2, our Master Opticians doing excactly the same : the sort of tests that Roland does, full interferometric, as he does the final figuring on each piece of glass is quite different than what others are in a position to do.

so its not diffrent at all
---------------------

Markus: It is good to hear from you and get some more information on these scopes.

The distinction I was attempting to make was that Roland is the final word from the beginning to the end whereas in the case of TMB, he is dependent upon someone else to do those tests.

Jon

--------------------


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #486097 - 06/22/05 02:40 PM


Hello Markus. Thank you for responding. I, for one, appreciate your concern and information. I'm sure the others do too.

As you know, we sometimes venture off on comparisons of different scopes and designs. There is often comparisons of 6 inch APO scopes to the Celestron 9.25 SCT. Would you care to comment and offer your opinion on performance of these two designs?



(Note I have both a 9.25 and Tak 4" APO. I am in the market for a 6" APO.)

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #486109 - 06/22/05 02:53 PM

Jerry..

what's on your short-list for 6" APO and why?

Gary


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #486155 - 06/22/05 03:32 PM

Well Gary, don't want to prejudice Markus's reply, but:

Until this thread it was the AP 160 and Tak 152. AP 160 because it's easy to get on the list and not be concerned for 5 years. (Another 4 for me now.) The Tak 152 for the time being as it is available and the FS 102 I now have is a very nice scope. I have to admit, the size of the TMB 152 above is very attractive and I like what has been said in this thread about this and other OTAs.

I like playing with different scopes but the Tak 102 has been a surprise (as the Orion 80ED has). I mount the Tak side by side the other scopes. The APO has proven itself as an instrument you can trust. Sure, the C-14 has gobs of deep sky ability. But when you put the APO on Jupiter or M81 and drop in a Pentax, Nagler, or UWA you just look. In my SCTs, it's first check collimation and cool down. Oops, rings may just be a little off and I want perfection. Pull the W/O dielectric and look again. Little more off and on and on. I spend the time working on perfect SCT adjustment and then..... clouds roll in.

With a high end APO and Feathertouch type focus you can be comfortable, inch for inch, it doesn't get any better. With a 6" it just gets a whole lot better (I take you folks word on that).

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Chris G
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #486159 - 06/22/05 03:35 PM

Hey Jerry, I think you hit one of the reasons I like refractors so well.

No fussing around and a lot more observing. There's a lot to be said for that when your time is limited.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #486178 - 06/22/05 03:49 PM

Hi Jerry,

A 180mm APO is very nice too.

Rich


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nemo
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #486194 - 06/22/05 04:06 PM

"A 180mm APO is very nice too."

Right so is winning the lottery!!!-

--------------------
"Humility is not thinking less of your self-it is about thinking of yourself less."


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otocycle
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: nemo]
      #486225 - 06/22/05 04:26 PM

I agree...with the 6" APO you get a bigger, brighter version of the already excellent Takahashi FS102. That's why I own both.

While my C9.25 and larger Starmaster are bucking the thermals and collimation, the APOs are quickly ready to give "A" game every time to the limits of seeing conditions....no excuses.


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APM M.Ludes
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #487464 - 06/23/05 11:54 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

Hi Clive

recently we have redesigned the complete TMB CNC Tube line and are finished now with the redesigns, all tubes are now partly much less heavy and more compact in size and diameters. I am doing step by step the updates on my new coming webside and I hope TMB do that too soonest

I have no Idea what Vic at Stellarvue is doing with his modells, sorry

clear skies
Markus

Attachment

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012


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APM M.Ludes
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #487475 - 06/23/05 11:59 AM Attachment (78 downloads)

Hi Jon

I understand what you say , Roland is the Master at AP and the AP scopes, we have a not lesser experienced proffesionell learned Master Optician at LZOS, where also nothing leaves what we would not like.

see attached the lens testing equipment for TMB Apo's

best wishes
Markus

Attachment

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012

Edited by APM M.Ludes (06/23/05 12:01 PM)


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APM M.Ludes
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #487482 - 06/23/05 12:10 PM

Hi Jerry

here you ask me a difficult to answere question:
--------------------------------------------------
As you know, we sometimes venture off on comparisons of different scopes and designs. There is often comparisons of 6 inch APO scopes to the Celestron 9.25 SCT. Would you care to comment and offer your opinion on performance of these two designs?
--------------------------------------------------

I can answere this to you only from my very personal experience, which can differ from experience of others , okay ?

Point of view from Imager:
- Apo offers wide field and bigger corrected field
- C9.25" with its larger aperture offers to experts higher resolution, just look to the superlative Images done by Damian Peach with such scope.

If you compare now Planetary Images of the 6" Apo with the C.25 a visual user maybe come to the impression the C9.25 must be also the visual superior telescope.

A 6" has less aperture and alone from the less aperture it have way less seeing problems and many more racer sharp nights. A C9.25 is not like the next C9.25, they are massproduced scopes with good rating, but I self have seen both possible type of quality in diffrent C9.25, where a high end 6" Apo is usual always made in the highest level, where tolerances are mostly to small to be seen by users, by going from 1 sample to the next.

A 6" Apo is usual always perfect aligned , a C9.25 suffers here and need by critical Planetary Observing always a fine tweaking of the collimation, but not many doing that really, right ?

I have seen obstructed telescopes with good quality under perfect nights, which are extremly rar and here under such a seldom night, the good C9.25, perfect alignment, maybe catch the 6" Apo Performance , but under most other standart conditions, the 6" Apo eats the C9.25" image.

The C9.25 is in the SCX line maybe the best modell from the both manufactors and cost a fraction of a good 6" Apo. Also it needs a less heavy and less expensive mount and is way more compact. Look to your own Observing conditions and space , only then you can do for yourself the right decision, which is your personal best choice between the both

best wishes
Markus

--------------------
clear skies

Markus Ludes
anfrage@apm-telescopes.de
http://www.apm-telescopes.de
22 year anniversary of APM 1990-2012


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #487523 - 06/23/05 12:45 PM


Excellent Makus. Thank you.

Having a 4" APO and 9.25 what I am seeing hints at exactly what you said.

Thanks again, Jerry

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #487601 - 06/23/05 01:23 PM

My experience in this regards is very limited, but nonetheless what I based my future directions upon.

The 9.25 had more light gathering ability, and thus theoretically the ability to be pushed to higher magnifications. However, the 9.25 was more sensitive to atmospheric conditions, and the 6" APO under the same conditions could be pushed to higher magnifications then the 9.25 without wrecking the image, thus enabling the planetary image scale to be "matched", albeit with a little less brightness in the APO due to more limited light gathering ability.

In DSO, the light gathering capacity of the 9.25 showed its virtues by making faint fuzzies a little less faint, however, the 6" APO due to its higher contrast revealed more detail. By this I mean (as an example), that let us say 2,500 background stars were visible thru the 9.25, whereas 3,000 where visibile thru the APO. (these figures are just arbitrary, as also is the ratio...just illustrative as to the difference contrast might make).

For me, when you factor in seeing conditions, collimation and set-up times, etc etc....the 9.25 offers no real advantage over the 6" in most cases...except PRICE!

Disclaimer: "I could be wrong, so don't run out and buy a 6" APO on MY recommendation"!

Gary


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #487933 - 06/23/05 04:49 PM

Quote:

My experience in this regards is very limited, but nonetheless what I based my future directions upon.

The 9.25 had more light gathering ability, and thus theoretically the ability to be pushed to higher magnifications. However, the 9.25 was more sensitive to atmospheric conditions, and the 6" APO under the same conditions could be pushed to higher magnifications then the 9.25 without wrecking the image, thus enabling the planetary image scale to be "matched", albeit with a little less brightness in the APO due to more limited light gathering ability.




Well, this subject has popped up at least three or four times in the last six months. I'll just post the link to the Sky & Telescope infamous myth site rather than type in a response.

Link to Telescope Myths

The 9.25" scope has more resolution because of aperture. So, if you go to Thierry Legault's website you will also get some good details about resolution and contrast of various scopes.

Also, check out this site:
Link to site

I'll point out the conclusion, which is worth considering:

"In sum, yes, perfectly made refractors have better contrast than perfectly made SCTs OF EQUAL APERTURE. However, under dark skies, with all scopes in good collimation and at thermal stability, refractors cannot come close to the contrast delivered by an SCT 2 or 3 times larger in aperture. It is just no contest."

So, don't discount the 9.25" SCT's prowess too much, but when you get into the 11" and up SCTs, well, aperture will tell.

I've had some pleasing views of Saturn and Jupiter in my 4" Tak, my 5" Mak, but in the C-11, the resolution and detail are still better, even when the seeing is so-so. As the myth article noted at the end, it just seems that the smaller scope's view is more "pleasing."

That's why I have different scopes. The Tak is used for imaging and for quicker set up without the cool down preparation for the C-11. I like all my scopes, I like refractors, but I like aperture!

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #487944 - 06/23/05 04:56 PM

Frank...

I agree....however the 9.25 is not 2-3x's the aperture of the 6" APO. Deleting the central obstruction, its really only about 1.25x's. Then, as your alluded too yourself, there is the question of 'thermal stability', which, for most people I would presume may have to travel too in order to find. If that is the case, most of the viewing would be in those less then ideal conditions. Also, as Markus pointed out: 'not all mass-produced optics are the same', so someone may have a GREAT 9.25, and another merely a GOOD 9.25...whereas these variances will be held to much closer tolerances in a premium APO..(which is precisely WHY you pay the premium prices).

Now, with that being said...I will go to the links you provided and probably end up with egg on my face! LOL

Gary


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #487981 - 06/23/05 05:10 PM

Frank..

I read the links. Again, the prevailing theme is atmospheric conditions. Refractors are not quite as affected by them as SCT's. On the second link (which I breezed thru cuz I am at work and will have to get back to later)..I am not quite sure I agree with his definition of "contrast". He went on to explain things that have an effect UPON contrast. Contrast as I have learned it (via home theater and screen resolutions), is 'black level'. Black to white separation. All TV's (regardless plasma, cathode, etc) are constantly touting "contrast" in terms of black levels. My own visual experience bares out the observation that background black levels are darker thru an APO. IF this is true, then anything "not black" will stand out better against it. Aperture will enable you to resolve MORE things..(go deeper), but in my expereince, something like M13 is much more "startling" to look at thru a 6" APO then 9.25 SCT. Had i been under perfect skies at the time, maybe that opinion would change. In fact, all my opinions are subject to change because i am in part just being playfully oppostional just to keep the thread going! LOL

Gary


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celestial_search
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #487993 - 06/23/05 05:17 PM

Gary:

I'd love to have that scope Markus showed in the picture!

I'm only a neophyte imager and at this point don't plan on getting too much more involved in imaging. We are refurbishing a 12.5" reflector at a local college observatory and will be able to image with it (two of us have a key and access) once we get it going.
My friend has a C6-R which is actually an excellent achromat. So, a 6" APO is not really something I'd consider at this point, but if that's your cup of tea, that is great.
My C-11 has good optics and stays well-collimated. I have access to dark skies by driving 10 - 15 minutes. I just want to keep some balance in mind about the various scopes. The smaller scope is not affected by the seeing as much topic tends to pop up every now and then, so I'm just posting info related to it for consideration.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #488013 - 06/23/05 05:25 PM

Oh...an additional thought...

No one has mentioned the "superficial, I am a shallow kinda guy" factor...so I will. Refractors are PRETTY! They "look" purposeful, technical, scientific, and precision made! First time I walked into a telescope store, I walked right past the huge Celestrons and Meades, because to my uninitiated eyes, they looked like toys....and I walked right over to the TOA 130. THAT was a "telescope"! That was a work of art! That is something that appealled to my senses. That was the object of lust! Whether or not it actually WORKED the best was totally secondary to me! From that point on, prior to buying anything, I did exactly what any "brain-ego' combination thinking apparati would do....i JUSTIFIED the obtainment of the object of my lust! Please do not de-bunk my irrational justifications with FACTS! geez!



Gary


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #488026 - 06/23/05 05:33 PM

Quote:

Gary:

I'd love to have that scope Markus showed in the picture!

I'm only a neophyte imager and at this point don't plan on getting too much more involved in imaging. We are refurbishing a 12.5" reflector at a local college observatory and will be able to image with it (two of us have a key and access) once we get it going.
My friend has a C6-R which is actually an excellent achromat. So, a 6" APO is not really something I'd consider at this point, but if that's your cup of tea, that is great.
My C-11 has good optics and stays well-collimated. I have access to dark skies by driving 10 - 15 minutes. I just want to keep some balance in mind about the various scopes. The smaller scope is not affected by the seeing as much topic tends to pop up every now and then, so I'm just posting info related to it for consideration.




Everyones interest and needs differ. I have to drive 2-3 hours to get GREAT skies, which i will do once every other week. I also want to observe every other day, and those observations will be under city light polluted skies. Also, my trunk nor my home has enough storage space for multiple scopes. Additionally, I want to do CCD imaging. Now I ask myself..what 1 scope would best serve all these objectives of mine..and my answer was: 6" APO! A RATIONAL question might have been: "what can I afford?"...but then I would have had to bought a pair of Bushnell binoculars from Sears! (i hate that!) LOL

Gary


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #488028 - 06/23/05 05:35 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

"dare to dream"

Attachment

Edited by SavantSoir (06/23/05 05:38 PM)


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Chris G
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Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 4555
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #488050 - 06/23/05 05:49 PM

My thoughts exactly if I had an observatory to house it.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #488052 - 06/23/05 05:53 PM

its really very portable....

plop, plop (sound of dec head and polar head dropping in case)

plop (sound of scope plunked into case)

click-click (sound of pier being put into seatbelt in backseat)

VA-ROOM (sound of heading out to site!)

lol..Gary


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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #488227 - 06/23/05 08:20 PM

C9.25 vs 6" APO? I've tried to play "mythbuster" under the best cooled and collimated conditions, but it has never happened, at least for contrast and sharpness during visual use. Sure, the webcam and 1,000 stacked frames is a different story (sometimes), but for visual use under real world conditions experienced on any given outing the 6" APO makes me forget that the C9.25 is cooling down for use.

CO and MTF curves say that there isn't enough optical horsepower in the 9.25 to overcome the APO's design and precision advantage. (There is with a 12.5", 17% CO Zambuto Starmaster.) The C9.25 is brighter, but not sharper, and that is not "pleasing". Maybe a Takahashi TSC-225 would be a better SCT champion in that aperture class.

I'll be doing more side-by-side comparos with Mars better placed this year, but I don't expect the outcome to be any different.


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #488229 - 06/23/05 08:21 PM Attachment (47 downloads)

Here is my AP155EDFS (155mm f/7 APO) in the parking lot behind Lick Observatory. We are getting ready for a public star party to get going when the skies are a little darker.

It takes me about 25 minutes to set up my 6.1" refractor. The neat Dob to the left takes a less time to set up, but I enjoy taking my refractor out to remote sites.

This picture was taken sometime in the Summer of 2004.

Rich

Attachment


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #488243 - 06/23/05 08:33 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

This photo is likely from the same evening. My AP 6.1 inch and the dome of the great 36 inch refractor at Lick Observatory.

Rich

Attachment


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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #488277 - 06/23/05 09:09 PM

Gosh I hate to bring this up again. Well... not that bad.

I posted in the past few weeks about a side by side test I did with the Takahashi FS-102II on a Losmandy Dual Scope dovetail on the CGE mount. My new Celestron 9.25 XLT was next to it. I collimated the 9.25 and then refined it over two nights. Then, observing with a Nagler 13mm T6, Meade 14, 8.8 and 6.7 UWA, Nagler 3-6 zoom, and a Panoptic 35mm details on Jupiter were some of the time as good as the 9.25 and better most of the time. I got slammed pretty hard about my 9.25 being a "bad" one because no 4" APO will touch a perfect 9.25.

If we analyze this in light of the above post, then point made. $1,400 I spent on a 9.25 XLT and its a bad one. 2,395 I spent on a 4" Tak APO and its a normal 4" APO (perfect). I feel a 6" APO would also perform well against my bad 9.25. (It really has some great views. I'm very satisfied with the 9.25 but the Tak saw more bands on Jupiter.)

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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Rusty
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #488368 - 06/23/05 10:12 PM

Quote:

its really very portable....

plop, plop (sound of dec head and polar head dropping in case)

plop (sound of scope plunked into case)

click-click (sound of pier being put into seatbelt in backseat)

VA-ROOM (sound of heading out to site!)

lol..Gary




Gary, excuse me - but I have a vehicle that would be what you'd require at a minimum - a 1-ton LWB van. It doesn't go "VA-ROOM". Although it's quite assertive, noise-wise (being a diesel)...

--------------------
N11GPS Fastar//TOA-130S//MK66 Std//AT6RC//Vintage C5//Megrez II 80mm APO//SolarMax 40
NJP Temma II//Sirius EQ-G
Too Many Astro-Cameras//Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
Two not-spoiled Golden Retrievers - Casey and Nelson

Lot 19 Deerlick Astronomy Village (Canis Major)


Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering. - Arthur C. Clarke


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Chris G
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Reged: 08/12/04
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rusty]
      #488369 - 06/23/05 10:13 PM

Gorgeous scope Rich!

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #488379 - 06/23/05 10:19 PM

Rich...

Ya never did say "how much"! You trying to tease us first with pics to drive up the price by increasing temptation? (ya sly little marketeer!)

Gary


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JerryWise
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Reged: 12/26/03
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #488440 - 06/23/05 11:08 PM

Quote:

Gosh I hate to bring this up again. Well... not that bad.

I posted in the past few weeks about a side by side test I did with the Takahashi FS-102II on a Losmandy Dual Scope dovetail on the CGE mount. My new Celestron 9.25 XLT was next to it. I collimated the 9.25 and then refined it over two nights. Then, observing with a Nagler 13mm T6, Meade 14, 8.8 and 6.7 UWA, Nagler 3-6 zoom, and a Panoptic 35mm details on Jupiter were some of the time as good as the 9.25 and better most of the time. I got slammed pretty hard about my 9.25 being a "bad" one because no 4" APO will touch a perfect 9.25.

If we analyze this in light of the above post, then point made. $1,400 I spent on a 9.25 XLT and its a bad one. 2,395 I spent on a 4" Tak APO and its a normal 4" APO (perfect). I feel a 6" APO would also perform well against my bad 9.25. (It really has some great views. I'm very satisfied with the 9.25 but the Tak saw more bands on Jupiter.)




Oops-see-daisy. Spoke too soon. Tonight it is a little better seeing. Re-collimated the 9.25 with a barlow and 3.7mm EP. Then went to M5. No matter which EP in which OTA, the 9.25 ate the Tak 4" APO's lunch. 9.25 saw deeply and clearly into the cluster. Go figure.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #488461 - 06/23/05 11:40 PM

Yep, that's 'mo better. My FS102 is no match for the 9.25 under good, high power conditions either (Denk IIs), but I have to stay on the collimation during sessions because the moving mirror design permits floppy motion on the baffle tube.

I like the C9.25, and like Ed Ting said (paraphrasing), "it's the SCT for people who hate SCTs".

CS - Otto


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2569
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #488480 - 06/23/05 11:53 PM

I was looking at some pics on Ron Wodaski's site and he bought a C-9.25 noting that "it replaces the Mewlon 210, which I sold to raise funds for a serious refractor."

He seems to like his and his pics with it are good.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Chris G
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #488800 - 06/24/05 09:05 AM

I loved my C9.25, sold it to fund the SV115. Good aperture, nice optics, no APO but very good. I used a WO focuser so I didn't have to deal with the mirror flop, worked very well and the rotating feature was very nice.

--------------------
"Bacon". It's a perfectly acceptable answer.



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JerryWise
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Chris G]
      #488841 - 06/24/05 09:50 AM

Quote:

I loved my C9.25, sold it to fund the SV115. Good aperture, nice optics, no APO but very good. I used a WO focuser so I didn't have to deal with the mirror flop, worked very well and the rotating feature was very nice.




Oh, I forgot to say I have a FeatherTouch on the 9.25. That helps a lot.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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milt
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/13/04
Posts: 603
Loc: Arizona
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #489000 - 06/24/05 11:50 AM

Quote:

the 6" TMB CNC of today weights only 26 lbs and is now withhin the weight of the competitions




Hi Markus,

Sorry, but I was just going by the information on the TMB website. IMO this is a very significant improvement to TMB scopes and should be promoted in the marketplace. Weight was a significant part of my decision to go with TEC and not a TOA or TMB.

Best regards,
Milt


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: milt]
      #489136 - 06/24/05 01:24 PM

The carbon fiber tube with TMB lenses ought to be promoted more as well (for those weight conscious individuals). Had to find that scope via a link from another website...should make it more readily accessible on YOUR website Markus. That scope raised a lot of admiringly comments here on CN!

Gary


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #489145 - 06/24/05 01:32 PM

Gary, $6k+ is a heck of a deal for a FS-152. Don't wait too long.

Rich


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #489154 - 06/24/05 01:45 PM

Well..all this talk about how a 6" APO sucks compared to large aperture SCTs makes me nervous...so I will save my pennies and hold out for the 10" TMB......lol

Gary


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #489157 - 06/24/05 01:46 PM

(needless to say, if I had a 10" TMB the thread would be something like this: "The Meade or Celestron 14" kicks a 10" APO's butt"....



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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #489209 - 06/24/05 02:28 PM

I'm not going to worry about such a thing anytime soon. When AP, TMB, TEC, TV, and Tak APO ad copy exclaim images just as good as an SCT, then I will worry. MCTs can make a far more credible claim, like the TEC8 or TEC10, and unobtainium AP10.

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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #489228 - 06/24/05 02:38 PM

LOL...I am reminded of the advertising campaign that went something like this: "Honda....Mercedes quality at half the price" (makes me want to sell the Mercedes and buy 2 Honda's!)

Gary

P.S. Have we decided what the ultimate 6" APO is yet?


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otocycle
super member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 110
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #489406 - 06/24/05 04:24 PM

Have we decided yet. But of course...the ultimate 6" APO is the one that you have.

CS - Otto


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b1gred
Enginerd


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: otocycle]
      #489921 - 06/25/05 01:31 AM

Quote:

Have we decided yet. But of course...the ultimate 6" APO is the one that you have.

CS - Otto




Well Said!

--------------------
"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"

RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch





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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: b1gred]
      #489935 - 06/25/05 01:52 AM

yeah....i think I said the same thing myself in a verbose post about 100 threads back! Time to start another thread with a different twist!

Gary


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #490050 - 06/25/05 06:30 AM Attachment (56 downloads)

Here are a couple of picture from I took Friday (6/24/05) from Lick Observatory.

Rich

Attachment


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #490053 - 06/25/05 06:34 AM Attachment (61 downloads)

AP 155EDFS.

Attachment


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #490055 - 06/25/05 06:36 AM Attachment (57 downloads)

Ap 155EDFS (155mm f/7 APO triplet refractor), 900GTO and 52" pier.

I usually don't put the OTA in the rings until it will be in the shade of the observatory building. But, I thought the bright light would make for a better picturs.

We had a very good night. After sunset we went around to the west side of the building and saw Saturn, Venus and Mercury quite close together.

When it got a little darker we went back to our scopes east of the building. Jupiter was showing nice detail. One of its moons was close to going behand Jupiter.

The concert goers enjoyed looking through our amateur scopes while waiting to look through the Lick 36" refractor.

Three of us were there with our little scopes. Along with my refractor there was an Obsession 18" Dob and a 115mm (or 120mm) fast Orion refractor.

I showed Jupiter, M57, M27 and the Veil. Oh, and a bit of the moon through the tree.

Rich



Attachment

Edited by Rich N (06/25/05 06:49 AM)


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #490304 - 06/25/05 12:11 PM

the "drool machine"! Must be nice to have such a great observational site close by...(I am assuming it is close by). I went out the other night too for the Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn semi alignment...M, V, and Sat are REALLY exciting thru an 80mm scope...the crowds were going crazy!!!! LOL

Gary


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #490571 - 06/25/05 03:59 PM

Hi Gary,

Thanks!

Lick is only available on nights when we are part of the volunteer crew helping at the Summer Visitor's Series and Concert nights. But, is a very nice observing site.

I'm sure S, M, and V, looked good in the 80mm. We were just using binoculars. Our scopes were behind the building.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/25/05 04:00 PM)


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #490732 - 06/25/05 07:29 PM

well...they looked "round" with no CA...

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JerryWise
Postmaster


Reged: 12/26/03
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Loc: Lexington, SC
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: c131frdave]
      #490906 - 06/25/05 10:14 PM


I was seriously thinking about ordering a Takahashi FS 152 and a thought occurred. I could get a Celestron CGE-14 XLT for the same money. Scope and mount. Or a RCX 12". Man it's hard to choose toys.

--------------------
Jerry

TOA 150, FS-152, 14" LX200R, AP-1200



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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #491044 - 06/26/05 01:12 AM

Well If someone now said to me I'm going to bye you one & now its your pick after reading this thread,{ what one would you like } ?.

Ok I,ll have a !!!! -please.
But if you can,t get a !!!! then I,ll have ???? thanks.

Guess what a !!!! is , or a ????.
If you can,let me know.

Have fun out there Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #491060 - 06/26/05 01:47 AM

No problem...buy me the TMB 356 triplet APO pls.

Thanking you in advance for your generoisity!

Graciously,

Gary


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #491221 - 06/26/05 07:39 AM

Gary- to kind, but I only wish a 6 ", .
Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #491249 - 06/26/05 09:19 AM

Well then Mr Cheapskate , if ya put it that way....

1st Choice: AP-160 (due only to re-sale value)
2nd Choice: SV-152/TMB 152 (either/or, same scope really)
3rd Choice: TAK TOA 150
4th Choice: SV-130 (if you want to be really cheap and shave me down by an inch)
5th Choice: TEC 140 (if ya want to meet me halfway)
6th Choice: TOA 130

PM me for my mailing address. My birthday is Aug 3rd....I'm counting on ya! LOL

Gary


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #491264 - 06/26/05 09:44 AM

Gary its now your choice ! your about to score one scope , Whats its going to be out of your list ?.
So many are watching- please choise carfully.
Happy Birthday for Aug 3rd.

Have fun Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #491267 - 06/26/05 09:50 AM

Ha! Well if it were a "real world" choice, then it would have to be the SV/TMB 152. Gotta drop the 160, because something that is 5 years away is really no choice at all!

(checking my front door for a Delivery Reciept) lol

Gary


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Stellarvue1
Vendor (StellarVue)


Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: California, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: JerryWise]
      #491830 - 06/26/05 07:22 PM

Hi Clive:

Since we make each telescope here and we fabricate our own metal parts and tubes on our machines, we can adjust the weight somewhat for customers by turning down the aluminum tube a little more. We start with 1/8" tubing and generally turn down about 1/16". Two people have specified I make the telescopes with as thick a tube as possible as they are using big mounts and want overkill in terms of flexure. But we can reduce this thickness more than this without any problems with flexure. This significantly reduces weight. I will have more on this posted soon as I finish determining how light I can go without any flexure.

I am also working on another approach that will be even lighter but that is down the road a bit.

In the old days I depended heavily on suppliers to provide parts and many were poorly machined and had to be re-worked. It was false economy if one cared about accuracy. That is why I have invested so much in our new machines. Our capability is much better than it used to be and we outsource much less now. So people who order 152's from us can specify that they want a lighter tube and we can do that.

But you have to admit it is interesting that of all the 152 customers we have waiting, only two had special requests in terms of weight and both wanted thicker, heavier tubes. As they say - go figure.

Vic Maris


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Stellarvue1]
      #492004 - 06/26/05 10:42 PM


I am also working on another approach that will be even lighter but that is down the road a bit.






HI ya Vic, thanks for stopping by! Per chance, would that new tube approach resemble the carbon fiber tube with CNC fittings that Markus Ludes is offering with the TMB lenses?

Ya ought to stick your nose in here more often Vic....Robert and I can't do ALL your promoting!!

Gary Edington
SV-80 and other stuff


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badsnoopy
One star is enough


Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 3556
Loc: La Porte, IN
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #492068 - 06/26/05 11:48 PM

Thanks Gary. Just trying to put out the facts as I see them. Well and correct the sometimes incorrect view on the facts. Hope your liking that SV80.

So Bill are you any closer to a decision?

--------------------
Robert

TV Genesis SDF
Losmandy G11
10x14 Roll roof observatory
Lumenera SkyNyx 2-2m


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Anonymous
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: badsnoopy]
      #492189 - 06/27/05 02:35 AM

SV130 or SV 152? Would there visually be much difference? Any advantage as an astrography for 152 @ f/7.9? Would ya sacrifice what little you might gain out of the 44 inch tube for a 23" one at f/6? We are talking 6" APO's here, but what real advantage do they have over 5" ones, and at what COST? (price, portability, mounts, etc etc)

Gary


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #492229 - 06/27/05 03:20 AM

The answer depends on how important visual astronomy is to you vs. imaging.

I find deep sky objects are noticable more interesting visually in a 6". On a good night it is nice to have the extra brightness for planetary viewing. The extra resolution is also nice.

A 5" f/6 can be stable on a less beefy mount than a 6" f/8.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/27/05 03:26 AM)


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Rich N
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Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #492252 - 06/27/05 03:43 AM

Astro-Physics made the 6 inch APO market in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Tak and Zeiss 6 inch APOs were very expensive. The other current 6 inch APO makers/assemblers have a market to fish in because Astro-Physics doesn't meet the demand that Astro-Physics developed.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/27/05 03:51 AM)


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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless


Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 16724
Loc: Oort Cloud
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Stellarvue1]
      #492406 - 06/27/05 09:21 AM

Quote:

Hi Clive:

Since we make each telescope here and we fabricate our own metal parts and tubes on our machines, we can adjust the weight somewhat for customers by turning down the aluminum tube a little more. We start with 1/8" tubing and generally turn down about 1/16". Two people have specified I make the telescopes with as thick a tube as possible as they are using big mounts and want overkill in terms of flexure. But we can reduce this thickness more than this without any problems with flexure. This significantly reduces weight. I will have more on this posted soon as I finish determining how light I can go without any flexure.

I am also working on another approach that will be even lighter but that is down the road a bit.

In the old days I depended heavily on suppliers to provide parts and many were poorly machined and had to be re-worked. It was false economy if one cared about accuracy. That is why I have invested so much in our new machines. Our capability is much better than it used to be and we outsource much less now. So people who order 152's from us can specify that they want a lighter tube and we can do that.

But you have to admit it is interesting that of all the 152 customers we have waiting, only two had special requests in terms of weight and both wanted thicker, heavier tubes. As they say - go figure.

Vic Maris




Thanks for all the info, Vic.
Nice to hear that you're offering thinner CNC tubes for those who want them.
WRT weight, I've found that folks usually think "built like a tank" (or even heavier!) is great... until they try lifting the "tank" outta it's case.
Oooooh, my back!!

Best wishes,


Clive.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and two curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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badsnoopy
One star is enough


Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 3556
Loc: La Porte, IN
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Clive Gibbons]
      #492421 - 06/27/05 09:38 AM

Rich from all I've read AP did make the market in that time. Only problem is they don't want to help those in need of a scope much now. So just because they did all that then doesn't make them the best now. Something I see over and over again on CN is the one characteristic for the best scope is the one you use. Waiting 6-9 months for a different brand is a lot better in my book than 5-6 years. A person would be hard pressed to get as much viewing with their scope than me with a 4+year head start.

Also some say customer service isn't that important for deciding on a scope. Myself I saw that is crazy. You wouldn't buy a new car if you weren't sure if you could ever get it serviced right or a question answered. I had a question about where Stellarvue scope parts are all made and Vic answered me in about 30 minutes. Pretty good in my book.

--------------------
Robert

TV Genesis SDF
Losmandy G11
10x14 Roll roof observatory
Lumenera SkyNyx 2-2m


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #492586 - 06/27/05 11:47 AM

Quote:

The answer depends on how important visual astronomy is to you vs. imaging.

I find deep sky objects are noticable more interesting visually in a 6". On a good night it is nice to have the extra brightness for planetary viewing. The extra resolution is also nice.

A 5" f/6 can be stable on a less beefy mount than a 6" f/8.

Rich




If visual/imaging were equally important, then 5" APO and 11" SCT makes more sense! (arghhh..this is making me crazy!)

Gary


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: badsnoopy]
      #492651 - 06/27/05 12:32 PM

Quote:

Rich from all I've read AP did make the market in that time. Only problem is they don't want to help those in need of a scope much now. So just because they did all that then doesn't make them the best now. Something I see over and over again on CN is the one characteristic for the best scope is the one you use. Waiting 6-9 months for a different brand is a lot better in my book than 5-6 years. A person would be hard pressed to get as much viewing with their scope than me with a 4+year head start.

Also some say customer service isn't that important for deciding on a scope. Myself I saw that is crazy. You wouldn't buy a new car if you weren't sure if you could ever get it serviced right or a question answered. I had a question about where Stellarvue scope parts are all made and Vic answered me in about 30 minutes. Pretty good in my book.




I said AP isn't keeping up with damand. There is only one Roland to go around and many people want his telescopes.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/27/05 12:34 PM)


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b1gred
Enginerd


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #492838 - 06/27/05 02:59 PM

Hey guys! We're all fools.

I was at the local "Mega Store" this morning - you know the one with "Mart" at the end of the name.

I saw a scope there that was only $159.95. And right on the box it said,

Quote:


Amazing views of the planets and stars!
Up to 550x
Bright, clear lensens [sic]
See craters on the moon!





That HAS to be the "ultimate very best scope", and it's cheap! Think I'll sell my 9.25 and my TV85 and buy a bunch of those to give to my friends.




--------------------
"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"

RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch





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badsnoopy
One star is enough


Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 3556
Loc: La Porte, IN
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: b1gred]
      #492848 - 06/27/05 03:08 PM



I'll take 2.

--------------------
Robert

TV Genesis SDF
Losmandy G11
10x14 Roll roof observatory
Lumenera SkyNyx 2-2m


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b1gred
Enginerd


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: badsnoopy]
      #492856 - 06/27/05 03:16 PM

Robert,

Postal regulations prohibit sending [certain objectionable materials] and I don't want to get in trouble with the feds.

And I've slapped my own wrist for going off topic on this but just had to share!.

--------------------
"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"

RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch





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nemo
sage


Reged: 06/09/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Eugene,Oregon
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #492873 - 06/27/05 03:34 PM

Gary,
I have read on more than one occasion that the move up from a 4 inch refractor to a 5 inch is very noticeable. The move up from a 5 inch to a 6 inch refractor is said to be less so. This has to do with visual only. When you look at the bang for the buck it sounds like the 5 inch would be the way to go. Particularly when one compares the amount of dollar difference when going from 5 inches to 6 inches
Dan

--------------------
"Humility is not thinking less of your self-it is about thinking of yourself less."


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Stellarvue1
Vendor (StellarVue)


Reged: 04/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: California, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: b1gred]
      #492923 - 06/27/05 04:10 PM

The lighter tube we are experimenting is not carbon fiber. I am very concerned about two issues, weight and temperture. What Clive writes is correct based on converstaions I have had with people who own big refractors. They probably want the lightest tube they can get if they are assured that no other problems result. The fact is, we may have even more telescopes sold if we effectively promoted the weights better than showing the heaviest on the web. But then we have more business than we can handle now anyway. Decisions decisions.

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Stellarvue1]
      #493061 - 06/27/05 05:45 PM

If ya get too busy Vic, just tell me and Robert to keep our mouth shut for a bit.and we will stop singing your praises. Surely between us, we just have to account to 20% of that new surge ya been getting! In fact, let us get our scopes, yak our mouths off, and get you so far behind that you develop a 5 year wait list and drive the price of OUR scopes way up! (decisions, decisions...lol)

Gary


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #494098 - 06/28/05 12:01 PM

Just to summarize on all the great scopes that have been mentioned .
What have No aberations at all ? Thats perfect optics- nothing to pick on, I may have missed this point but maybe not.

Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #494127 - 06/28/05 12:17 PM

No such thing as perfect optics...just those that are 99.7% corrected. They would include AP, TAK, SV, TMB, TEC. Even if the optics were perfect, our own less then perfect vision would screw it all up anyways! IMHO, anyone of these brands that offer 6" is a winner, the only thing differentiating them is "features". For example, the AP 160 is an f/7, whereas the SV 152 is f/7.9...maybe this difference has some importance to you. Or, TEC and AP have crinkle finish paint jobs, SV, TMB, and TAK do not (personally, I don't like the crinkle finish, and if I could get all the features I am looking for in nice gloss tube, I would buy the gloss over crinkle). Bottom line, there are ultimate SCOPES in the 6" category, but the title of "ultimate" is not going to be based upon which one of these is actually better, but rather, which design is best for you and your particular needs! AFter going back and forth and weighing things out for myself, I have concluded that to get all the features I need and to stay within certain limitations I have, that the ULTIMATE APO for me would be f/6, 130mm, coupled with some big aperture SCT.

(although if f/7 160 AP was actually available, I would live with the crinkle finish and get that, ONLY because it is a combination of biggest aperture with shortest f/ratio for its size)

Gary


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #494177 - 06/28/05 12:49 PM

Gary - Thanks for your input, you say the best are 99.7% corrected where did you get that informatiom please ?

Regards Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Clive Gibbons
Mostly Harmless


Reged: 05/26/05
Posts: 16724
Loc: Oort Cloud
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #494185 - 06/28/05 12:58 PM

Quote:

Just to summarize on all the great scopes that have been mentioned .
What have No aberations at all ? Thats perfect optics- nothing to pick on, I may have missed this point but maybe not.

Regards Bill.




One that hasn't been mentioned yet:
(might not be available on some planets)

The Remulon Apochromatic Wormhole.
Just stick your head in the jumpgate and *zoink*!, you're there. Astro-Glide destination locator is 99.999% accurate. No more unwanted arrivals in the core of a blue giant. Much more sophisticated than Meade AutoStar. But, make sure the firmware is ver. Log12.1. Earlier releases have proven fatal.
Guaranteed aberration free and fits in the trunk of most hovercars!




Clive.

--------------------


A few telescopes of dubious value.
Understanding wife and two curious cats.

"Semper ubi sub ubi"


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #494301 - 06/28/05 02:06 PM

Quote:

Gary - Thanks for your input, you say the best are 99.7% corrected where did you get that informatiom please ?

Regards Bill.




Gee, I dunno....ya mean I am right???? (wow)! (ok, ok, don't quote me on that, I was reading some optic test reports on TMB website, but since that time I have been reading some pretty intense books on Cosmology, and my head feels like it is about to explode....)

LOL, gary


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #494304 - 06/28/05 02:07 PM

FYI Bill

http://www.tmboptical.com/documents/tmbFAQ.pdf


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SimonWinchester
member


Reged: 02/11/05
Posts: 31
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #494606 - 06/28/05 04:57 PM

Rich,

Do you find a 5" apo to be a satisfying general purpose visual instrument, or do you need a 6" apo for that? I'd like to try out a 5" apo, but I wonder whether I would find it too aperture limited as compared to, say, a C8. In order to try out a 5" apo, I'll have to purchase one, since I do not have access to one.

Simon


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ngc2289
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 04/13/05
Posts: 2839
Loc: Some Where Around The Maypole.
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #494857 - 06/28/05 07:47 PM

Your head is about to explode? Is that what they call the "BIG BANG"?

--------------------
Mike Traub(Mr. Congeniality): I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it!:Shipfitters mottos; Cut to suit, pound to fit, paint to hide!: If it dosen't fit get a bigger hammer!......Retired and BROKE!!!!!!!!:SV 80DL Triplet:6" f/6 Home built newt.:PST: UniversalAstronomics UniStar Deluxe.


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: SimonWinchester]
      #494861 - 06/28/05 07:53 PM

Hi Simon,

One thing about having a 5" or 6" APO, you usually also have a mount that is beefy enough to hold a C8 OTA. After spending the money for a 5" APO and mount, another $800 for a C8 OTA isn't so bad if you want more aperture for DSOs.

Since I have 5" and 6" APO OTAs, I find I usually take out the 6". There isn't much difference in portabiliby.

When I had my AP 130mm f/8.35 out about a month ago it resolved M13. I also looked at M104 and some other DSOs. It certainly gives nice planetary detail.

I enjoy using my 4" Tak for deep sky viewing and planetary viewing. However, the 5" gives a very nice bump in planetary detail.

The 5" would be a very nice general purpose instrument. If you find you want to get into more DSO hunting you may well went to add a light bucket of some type.

I seldom use my light buckets. I keep thinking about getting or making one that will be super easy to take out and set up. But, I don't know how much I would really use it.

All the best,
Rich

Edited by Rich N (06/28/05 07:56 PM)


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #494870 - 06/28/05 08:01 PM

One thing I've noticed about my deep sky observing friends they have their lists of open clusters and galaxies that push the limit of their telescopes aperture (visual use). They don't often look at the brighter "eye candy" DSOs with their 18" and larger scopes.

I enjoy trying to find difficult DSOs but I also love using the aperture 15" and 18" to get great views of the big bright DSOs. M17 on a good night with an 18" will show amazing detail in the "check mark".

Rich


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #496056 - 06/29/05 05:06 PM

I think it would be a heck of a lot cheaper to IMAGINE what the universe is like (a la Stephen Hawkins) then to actually look at it..(a la Stephen Hawkins)...the heck with being an amatuer Astronomer...i am going to be an amatuer Cosmologist! (now leave me alone, I'm "thinking" about stuff!)

Gary


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #496193 - 06/29/05 07:08 PM

Or, you could be an amateur cosmetologist.

Rich


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #496313 - 06/29/05 08:37 PM

lol...yes...and figure out a way to win the race between my hair falling out and my hair growing out! I need to find homeostasis quickly before its too late!

Gary


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #496822 - 06/30/05 08:43 AM

What I would like to see is a shoot out between all the great 6" Apos on the same field at same mag with good dark seeing, Visual test only, a group of experts who know what makes a great scope will then look through each .

Each scope would be shrouded as to hide its make.
At the end of the test they can all put in there results.
Have Fun Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #496837 - 06/30/05 09:06 AM

Nice idea Bill. Good luck on having it happen. Most owenrs of telescopes don't want their scopes judged. You would have a better chance of getting the comparison done if you bought one or three of each scope.

Rich


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BushyBill
sage


Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 205
Loc: Out Bush in Australia
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #496849 - 06/30/05 09:25 AM

Thanks Rich , I wish I was Bill Gates then I could just make the test happen.
Gee- Bill G, wish you were into scopes too.

Bill.

--------------------
10" F6 dob
6" F10 dob
4" F5 refr
Saxon ED80 F7.5 refr
20x80 Triplet binos


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: BushyBill]
      #496971 - 06/30/05 11:33 AM

It would still not be a valid test, due to the "eyes" of each evaluator. You would have to have 1 set of eyes do the test between the scopes, and even then, that individuals judgment would still have his preferences that are personal and have nothing to do with the optical quality. You would have to lab test the optics, that would be the more valid method, but even then, in the final analysis, it would still come down to individual opinion.

I will draw upon my involvment with high-end audio. If you took pre-amp models from Burmiester, Mark Levinson, Tag, etc etc....and ran a plethora of tests for THD, IMD, Sensitivity, and on and on....i bet they all spec out similarily, and very very well indeed, yet, they will still each have their own sonic signature that any individual may prefer over another. There is no phase incoherency, no lack of linearity, no slewing problems, absolutely nothing to account for these differences of sound from a lab bench perspective, yet, each instrument differs slightly in its ultimate presentation, and the end-user picks the one he likes the most based on that difference. (or a host of other variables, such as features, upgradeability, etc etc). So whats better, Goldmund, Brumeister, Mark Levinson, et al? IN a free marketplace, anyone charging $35,000 for a preamp better have a darn good preamp, OR, it would never sell at that price. All premium 6" APOs pretty much have the same price. There is no way that SV or TMB or TAK could get the same amount of money for their 6" scopes that AP does if AP was significantly better, or, if any of their competitors were better. There are also 6" APOs which sell for a few thousand dollars less. Why? Because they are NOT of the same quality and no they cannot compete at the very high end, so were either forced to reduce their price, or were initially priced to fit into a second tier of quality. IN a free market place society, the axiom "you get what you pay for" is a truism. There will be flucuations in this value per quality ratio as the product price is forced to adjust to market demands, but it will all settle into the curve in the long run!

Gary


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2569
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #497013 - 06/30/05 12:07 PM

Gary:

Regarding "you get what you pay for" as a truism, I will share an analogy that pertains to the pricing of premium APOs such as AP. Sometimes the what "you get" is an intangible quality.

I'm a biker. For years Harley-Davidson motorcycles have sold for "premium" prices. Until last year, a good used Harley big-twin would sell for more than retail. Many dealers sold Harleys for $2000 - $5000 over suggested retail price. Why? H-D production could not keep up with demand. Wait lists for a particular bike were between one and two years. You could argue that Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, etc. had "higher tech" bikes for a lot less money. H-D was approaching its 100 anniversary (celebrated in 2003). The "mystique" and customer-loyalty of H-D was phenomenal.

The last two years H-D has upped production and now most new bike prices are at suggested retail price and used bike prices have dropped, although they have not depreciated as do other brands.

There is a market now for high end custom choppers (thanks in part to Jesse James, Orange County Choppers, et al. and exposure on the Discovery Channel).

Two years ago you could buy an equivalent Honda cruiser for half the price of a Harley cruiser. So, technology-wise, you paid for something else, meaning the "you get what you paid for" was not an obvious "quality thing." The famous Harley quote is "If I had to explain you wouldn't understand." I therefore won't try to explain other than in an economic sense.

AP APO demand is higher than production. However, unlike the H-D example, the "quality" of AP is also arguably premium or "best" compared to other APOs. The resale value of AP APOs is high because of the existing market situation. The prestige factor is similar. As long as AP has long waits and cannot/will not meet demand (and quality remains high) the pricing of AP APOs will reflect that situation. Many people want what they cannot have. For others it is a prestige matter. For some it is probably indeed the quality of the scope. Combinations of these most likely apply. You also see people buying AP APOs and reselling them for a profit, just as occurred in the H-D market.

Sometimes "you get what you pay for" is not something tangible such as tech specs.

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Scott BeithAdministrator
SRF


Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 42898
Loc: Frederick, MD
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #497026 - 06/30/05 12:16 PM

Frank,
As a fellow biker/astronomer - I fully agree.
Well phrased Sir!

--------------------
SLAP Observer --- TMB130SS, SV102V(LOMO Lens), SV80ED Deluxe
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Scott Beith]
      #497258 - 06/30/05 03:30 PM

Oh yes, I definately agree with all you say above. Astro Physics could probably get more due to the mystique factor, yet the AP160 is $400 LESS then the TMB 152, $900 less then the TAK TOA 150, $70 less then the SV-152. Go figure!

Gary


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celestial_search
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 11/18/04
Posts: 2569
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Scott Beith]
      #497289 - 06/30/05 03:50 PM

Thanks!

Ride to live, live to ride,
(and observe when you can)!

--------------------
Frank

C-11 XLT
8" f/6 Newt on GEM
Tak FS-102II
SV 80L Triplet APO
EQ-6 Mount on pier in backyard observatory (EQMOD)
CG-5 AS (GOTO)
SBIG ST-5C CCD and Canon Rebel XSI
SSAG
Oberwerk 15X70s and Pentax 10X21s


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #497384 - 06/30/05 04:59 PM

Quote:

Oh yes, I definately agree with all you say above. Astro Physics could probably get more due to the mystique factor, yet the AP160 is $400 LESS then the TMB 152, $900 less then the TAK TOA 150, $70 less then the SV-152. Go figure!

Gary




Roland Christen has said he wants fine APO refractors to be within reach of amateur astronomers. Without AP refractors in the market place other APO makers would charging much more for their telescopes. They would make 6" APOs the toys of only the very rich.

Rich


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Ron B[ee]
Tyro


Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 4720
Loc: CA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: celestial_search]
      #497387 - 06/30/05 05:01 PM

Quote:

Regarding "you get what you pay for" as a truism, I will share an analogy that pertains to the pricing of premium APOs such as AP. Sometimes the what "you get" is an intangible quality.

...

Sometimes "you get what you pay for" is not something tangible such as tech specs.




That's an excellent, "intangible" expose, Frank !

Ron B[ee]

--------------------
5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO

Edited by Ron B[ee] (06/30/05 05:02 PM)


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Peter Argenziano
Watcher of the Skies


Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 3642
Loc: Desert Southwest
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #498588 - 07/01/05 12:34 PM

Quote:

Roland Christen has said he wants fine APO refractors to be within reach of amateur astronomers. Without AP refractors in the market place other APO makers would charging much more for their telescopes. They would make 6" APOs the toys of only the very rich.





Rich,

Not sure I can agree that Roland is singlehandedly controlling the apo refractor prices worldwide (if I understand your post).

Besides, once you get above 4", all of the premium apos are priced beyond the means of the majority of amateur astronomers.(IMO)

Peter

--------------------
Peter




I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town.


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Peter Argenziano
Watcher of the Skies


Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 3642
Loc: Desert Southwest
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ]
      #498592 - 07/01/05 12:38 PM

Gary,

Well worded post and a great analogy to high-end audio equipment.
Once you reach a certain level of quality the evaluations become increasingly subjective.

Peter

--------------------
Peter




I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster


Reged: 06/16/04
Posts: 32442
Loc: San Diego, California
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #498725 - 07/01/05 02:13 PM

>>>Rich,

Not sure I can agree that Roland is singlehandedly controlling the apo refractor prices worldwide (if I understand your post).
-----------

Probably not but he probably makes an impact on the price.
---------

>>>Besides, once you get above 4", all of the premium apos are priced beyond the means of the majority of amateur astronomers.(IMO)
----

I disagree. Wehn I look around and see the cars people drive, the toys they have, it is not hard for me to imagine that with a bit of an eye towards thrift, that SUV at 12mpg could be a Ford Escort at 32mpg and many thousands saved that could go towards an APO.

Certainly not everyone can afford an APO, but $5000 for a piece of equipment that has the potential to last several lifetimes is possible for many of us.

Jon

--------------------


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badsnoopy
One star is enough


Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 3556
Loc: La Porte, IN
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #498736 - 07/01/05 02:27 PM

I agree Jon. My wife was a bit shocked when I told her that I was looking at a $4000 scope. Then after explaining how long it would last and the amount it could be resold for she was ok with it. Plus just the joy and relaxation it gives is worth more than a number. Not to big of a number thou.
People spend lots and lots of money on different hobbies. It all depends on how much you enjoy it and if your willing to cut out other things. If it was up to me we could stop going out to eat and save enough for another scope in a years time.

--------------------
Robert

TV Genesis SDF
Losmandy G11
10x14 Roll roof observatory
Lumenera SkyNyx 2-2m


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Rich N
Post Laureate


Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #498776 - 07/01/05 03:12 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Roland Christen has said he wants fine APO refractors to be within reach of amateur astronomers. Without AP refractors in the market place other APO makers would charging much more for their telescopes. They would make 6" APOs the toys of only the very rich.





Rich,

Not sure I can agree that Roland is singlehandedly controlling the apo refractor prices worldwide (if I understand your post).

Besides, once you get above 4", all of the premium apos are priced beyond the means of the majority of amateur astronomers.(IMO)

Peter




It was certainly true back in the 1990s and other makers have confirmed it. AP has not had very high prices. Other makers to compete had to keep near APs prices.

Takahashi was charging something like $20K for a 6" triplet. Zeiss was also charging lots for their triplet. An AP triplet was around $3k. AP has had price increases but they certainly aren't charging as much as they could. AP has also kept improving their product, better OTAs, focusers, coatings, glass, etc.

Now $8k seems like a lot of money but compare it to how much people spend on other hobbies. Amateur astronomy can be an inexpensive hobby. There is a wide range of equipment available to amateurs, Dobs to APOs. Maybe an APO is out of the question for a $500 Dob buyer but APOs aren't out of the question for quite a few people in the hobby.

With SV and TEC now in the market there might be enough competition between them TMB and Tak to not let prices to increase as much as prices might have if only two makers Tak and TMB were making 6" APOs. Zeiss had stopped producing amateur scopes the around '95.

This idea about AP keeping prices down was talked about in the '90s on the usenet Sci.Astro.Amateur. You can do a search for the comments.

Rich


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milt
professor emeritus


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #498816 - 07/01/05 03:47 PM

Quote:

AP has not had very high prices. Other makers to compete had to keep near APs prices.




I agree completely, Rich. IMO one of the turning points in high-end Apo's was Ed Ting's multi-observer shootouts between the A-P 155EDF and Tak FS-152 and FCT150 five years ago. The 155 was picked unanimously over both Tak's, which at the time cost 2x-3x what the A-P did! I don't think it was just a coincidence that Takahashi dropped the FCT and slashed the price on the FS, or that their new TOA line has abandoned the use of CaF2 to keep the selling price competitive.

We amateurs are a pretty unforgiving lot who call it as we observe it. It is to Roland's everlasting credit (and I hope that Yuri is following the same course) that he simply would not and will not sacrifice quality. No way, no how, not even a little bit. They know that long term, that is what will keep their waiting lists fat.

Take care,
Milt


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Peter Argenziano
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #498996 - 07/01/05 05:49 PM

Quote:

I disagree. Wehn I look around and see the cars people drive, the toys they have, it is not hard for me to imagine that with a bit of an eye towards thrift, that SUV at 12mpg could be a Ford Escort at 32mpg and many thousands saved that could go towards an APO.




Jon,

For the most part you're preaching to the choir... but that analogy isn't quite apples to apples. I mean, the automobile is a necessity for most people in most cities. An apo is not. Plus, one uses their vehicles for many other activities besides commuting. I do understand your point, I just don't think it's a good analogy. I use my vehicle far more often than my telescopes, and I live in the southwest and go out observing quite often.

That being said, you certainly don't have to justify astro spending to me. I have an 18" Obsession with ArgoNavis and ServoCAT and a Denk II binoviewer. Oh, and I need my SUV (which gets 20 mpg) to haul all that around.

Peter

--------------------
Peter




I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town.


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Peter Argenziano
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #499012 - 07/01/05 05:59 PM

Quote:

This idea about AP keeping prices down was talked about in the '90s on the usenet Sci.Astro.Amateur. You can do a search for the comments.





I'll take your word on that one. I stopped reading SAA years ago because of the signal-to-noise ratio. Just my opinion.

Peter

--------------------
Peter




I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town.


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Peter Argenziano
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #499019 - 07/01/05 06:05 PM

Rich, Jon, others,

Please don't take my posts in this thread as argumentative. Just voicing my opinion in what I hope is perceived as a friendly manner. That's the main shortcoming of this communication medium: no inflection, intonation, facial expression, etc. (emoticons just aren't the same).

All that being said, I am planning to venture into the 4" apo waters, which is why I'm reading threads in the refractors forum (the reflector guy that I am).

I have observed with apos from AP, Tak, SV, TMB, TeleVue. For me, I reach a point in quality where I can't see the differences no doubt many of you can.

Peter

--------------------
Peter




I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town.


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Mark Costello
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Reged: 03/08/05
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #499035 - 07/01/05 06:20 PM

Quote:

Rich, Jon, others,

...I am planning to venture into the 4" apo waters, which is why I'm reading threads in the refractors forum (the reflector guy that I am).

Peter





Me, too. My biggest refractor will be 4", maybe 5". Cost is a factor - at least at this point in my life (raising children). Portability is another deciding factor - especially since I'm thinking of mounting my refractor astronomical telescope (or RAT) with a CAT ... way down the line. The first thing is to get an upgraded RAT, 80mm-105mm or maybe up to 130 mm.

Have a good night.

--------------------
Mark Costello
Matthews, NC

Wife, son, three daughters, two dogs, ... and

ES AR127 & Celestron 7X35's


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Ron B[ee]
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #499048 - 07/01/05 06:29 PM

Quote:

All that being said, I am planning to venture into the 4" apo waters, which is why I'm reading threads in the refractors forum (the reflector guy that I am).
Peter




You're "planning to venture" into the 4-inch deep water much wisely, Peter .

Ron the 4-inch Tall Evangelist B[ee]

--------------------
5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO


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Ron B[ee]
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Mark Costello]
      #499052 - 07/01/05 06:33 PM

Quote:

Me, too. My biggest refractor will be 4", maybe 5". Cost is a factor - at least at this point in my life (raising children). Portability is another deciding factor - especially since I'm thinking of mounting my refractor astronomical telescope (or RAT) with a CAT ... way down the line. The first thing is to get an upgraded RAT, 80mm-105mm or maybe up to 130 mm.

Have a good night.




You're thinking about upgrading to a 4-inch range, much wisely Mark . Alas, that jump in 1-inch from 4-inch to 5-inch is chasm of a leap in price .

Ron the 4-inch Tall Evangelist B[ee]

--------------------
5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #499092 - 07/01/05 07:01 PM

I've had many hours enjoying the veiws through my Tak FC100 f/8. It has performed so well and been so handy, I've seen no reason to buy different 4 incher. It has been in my hot little hands since about 1990.

I didn't buy it to be an airline type travel scope. Image quality was most important to me. Even when I go back to it from my larger APOs I still love the views through the Tak FC100.

I'm taking my AP180EDT out tonight to our club's public star party. It hasn't been out for quite some time but I think there is a good chance the seeing will be quite good.

The reason I think the seeing will be good, I look at the jet stream maps and we are having a nice on shore flow, however, the jet stream is not over head. Living near the eastern edge of the Pacific Ocean these things are important to watch.

Rich

Edited by Rich N (07/01/05 07:24 PM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Peter Argenziano]
      #499108 - 07/01/05 07:15 PM

Jon,

For the most part you're preaching to the choir... but that analogy isn't quite apples to apples. I mean, the automobile is a necessity for most people in most cities. An apo is not. Plus, one uses their vehicles for many other activities besides commuting. I do understand your point, I just don't think it's a good analogy. I use my vehicle far more often than my telescopes, and I live in the southwest and go out observing quite often.
----------

My point is this. Most people do need cars for transportation. I live in San Diego, a city of about 1.3 million people, I know about needing a car.

But looking around, it appears to me that most don't need to spend the sort of money they do on a car. There is a choice to be made. For many of us there is enough money for a toy like an APO telescope if a more practical choice is made when it comes to a vehicle. That is all I am saying.

jon

--------------------


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Ron B[ee]
Tyro


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Loc: CA
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #499147 - 07/01/05 07:45 PM

Quote:

For many of us there is enough money for a toy like an APO telescope if a more practical choice is made when it comes to a vehicle. That is all I am saying.

jon




Do I detect an APO acquisition coming up soon, eh Jon ?

Ron B[ee]

--------------------
5-inch Tele Vue NP127 APO
4-inch Tele Vue TV-102 APO


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ngc2289
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Ron B[ee]]
      #499169 - 07/01/05 08:07 PM

Sounds to me like he is going to buy a Yugo so he can fund that 21" APO!!!

--------------------
Mike Traub(Mr. Congeniality): I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it!:Shipfitters mottos; Cut to suit, pound to fit, paint to hide!: If it dosen't fit get a bigger hammer!......Retired and BROKE!!!!!!!!:SV 80DL Triplet:6" f/6 Home built newt.:PST: UniversalAstronomics UniStar Deluxe.


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Scott BeithAdministrator
SRF


Reged: 11/26/03
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: ngc2289]
      #499181 - 07/01/05 08:14 PM

If he walks everywhere he can get the 24".

--------------------
SLAP Observer --- TMB130SS, SV102V(LOMO Lens), SV80ED Deluxe
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
"The measure of a man’s greatness is not determined by what he accomplishes for himself, but by what he accomplishes for others.” -- Some Bald Guy


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Peter Argenziano
Watcher of the Skies


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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #499182 - 07/01/05 08:15 PM

Quote:

My point is this. Most people do need cars for transportation. I live in San Diego, a city of about 1.3 million people, I know about needing a car.

But looking around, it appears to me that most don't need to spend the sort of money they do on a car. There is a choice to be made. For many of us there is enough money for a toy like an APO telescope if a more practical choice is made when it comes to a vehicle. That is all I am saying.




Agreed.
I live in a city of 3+ million, so I too require wheels (two sets, in fact). But, given the relative usage of my vehicles (about 35k miles annually) I'm not prepared to adjust my driving choices to accommodate another telescope, but that's just me. A car is just a higher priority. Besides, when it comes to my toys, I try to keep their acquisition in perspective. (I try, I said).

Peter

--------------------
Peter




I come from a small town whose population never changed. Each time a woman got pregnant, someone left town.


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milt
professor emeritus


Reged: 09/13/04
Posts: 603
Loc: Arizona
Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #499212 - 07/01/05 08:37 PM

Quote:

I'm taking my AP180EDT out tonight to our club's public star party.




*BLEEEP*, and I'm missing it. But thanks for bringing it out because few in the public ever get to look through one. You know, we have public star parties in Northern Arizona too - just a little longer drive....

Milt


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: milt]
      #499486 - 07/02/05 02:01 AM

Rich...

I have a couple of nice cars..a 2005 Audi A8 and 2003 Jaguar. That is about the price of the Tak FET-150. The difference is Jag and Audi will take their money at $1,000 mo each...where TAK wants their $170,000 up front! So the analogy to a $5,000 scope being obtainable to the "masses" is not really correct IMHO. If one scales back on their car and saves a couple of bills per month on payment, and then saved that for 2 years to buy an APO...ok..But, to fork out and plunk down an extra 5K cash is definately a luxury!

Gary
SV-130 (on way)
Meade 10" LX200GPS
Meade ETX 125
G-11 (on way)
Kibbles and Bits so it all goes...WOW!, look at dat!

P.S . Thanks for kind words Peter


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: milt]
      #499565 - 07/02/05 05:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm taking my AP180EDT out tonight to our club's public star party.




*BLEEEP*, and I'm missing it. But thanks for bringing it out because few in the public ever get to look through one. You know, we have public star parties in Northern Arizona too - just a little longer drive....

Milt




Milt, I'm shocked. You got bleeped.

It was a fun night at our SJAA in-town Houge Park public star party. I'll post some pictures.

All the best,
Rich

Edited by Rich N (07/02/05 05:33 AM)


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #499570 - 07/02/05 05:39 AM Attachment (115 downloads)

Here are pictures of my AP 180EDT (180mm f/9)APO triplet refractor. They were all taken the same evening (7-1--05) at Houge Park, San Jose, California, USA. Our astronomy club (San Jose Astronomical Association) was having their roughly twice monthly, in-town, public star party.

See if you can see a change to the OTA in the photos.

Rich

Attachment


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #499572 - 07/02/05 05:41 AM Attachment (91 downloads)

A few early birds are setting up their scopes.

Rich

Attachment


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #499573 - 07/02/05 05:45 AM Attachment (80 downloads)

We had quite good seeing this evening. Jupiter was showing nice festoons and detail in the NEB and SEB.

Rich

Attachment

Edited by Rich N (07/02/05 05:47 AM)


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Rich N
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Re: The Ultimate Very Best Apo in 6" size O.T.A. new [Re: Rich N]
      #499577 - 07/02/05 05:51 AM Attachment (80 downloads)

The mount is an AP 900GTO on an AP 52" pier. No, the Telrad held on with gaffers tape isn't the change I was talking about earlier.

Visitors are starting to stop by.

Rich

Attachment

Edited by Rich N (07/02/05 05:56 AM)


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