Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 6707
Loc: Alaska, USA
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Quote:
Go for a Denk II, Televue, or AP Baader Mark V. .... (snip) A problem however with the latter two is that the light path is longer, so they can't get to as low power as the Denkmeier.
Not sure I follow you. If I remove the glaspath corrector from my AP/Baader units I can use them at 1.00x
Mike
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http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/tec_200_observations
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tomhole
sage
Reged: 12/20/02
Posts: 443
Loc: California, MD
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If your ep case is full of plossls and affordable ep's, then $200 binoviewers will serve you well. If your ep case is full of Pans and Naglers, you might be disappointed. The differences are so subtle as to require detailed comparisons and some level of experience to discern. But they are there. I think the mechanicals are more obvious. IMHO, set screws are the worst idea ever for binoviewers. Period. Dot. End of story. Folks make do, as evidenced by the good reviews, but that just needs to go.
Anyway, I've been reading binoviewer posts for 3 years now and nothing much has changed. The introduction of the $200 models is a good thing. The lack of support from the retailers on a good, out of the box OCA solution is criminal. Folks figuring out that God gave us two eyes for a reason is priceless.
Tom
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11" Starmaster
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
FYI, I have little trouble centering EPs in the WO compression rings, even at high power although it is more difficult than with low power centering.
Also, early protoype Burgess units and William Optics BV's are not the same exact beast. I wish people here would stop the misinformation being spread, and try to be more accurate.
I know there's confusion elsewhere but it seems that CN folks are pretty savvy about WO products. I've seen no indication of confusion here - and no misinformation.
If I were shopping for another $200 BV (and I probably will be; I'd like something shorter and lighter for PST use), I'd go for the WO primarily because the compression EP holder looks like a step up from the multiple setscrew systems. Those are a recipe for disaster in the dark and although I never dropped any setscrews I'll not own another such setup.
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John C
Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery
AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way
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NewAstronomer
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/03/04
Posts: 3767
Loc: Northeast, PA U.S.A
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Sorry jrcrilly, I replied to you but didn't mean you (or your post), my bad.
Its just that on some posts here on the BV forum refer to "econo" BV's as all being a waste of money and the poster knows from first hand expierence since they tried an early prototype of the BO models.
I think that broad statements like that are misinformation to newbies on this forum.
You guys can mod my posts now, but I'll stick by my feelings.
Anyway I hope the parent, original newbie, comes back with their budget limits. Hopefully they can afford Denks or better, but if not, I don't think "econo" BV's (as they are called now apparently) are a waste of money.
(p.s. I never saw people, mods included, on the refractor forum saying "Bah, don't buy an Orion 80ED or , goodness forbid, an achro, just get a 6" AP , everything else is a waste, but for some reason its totally acceptable on the BV forum..I find this odd, and wish it would stop)
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tjswood
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/18/05
Posts: 1881
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
It is funny how binoviewer users on this part of the CN forum are always coaxed into a mini-war by a few CN users who have less than 100 posts, no profile or location information, and who exclusively post on the binoviewer forum, solely to denigrate Denkmeier products and promote those of another vendor. Why can't we all just post our opinions and not make personal attacks like you have done in the above quote. It will help everyone that way.
I think you nailed it. I have seen this also in the brief readings on this board. Obviously not populated by only BV users, but those with an agenda.
Tim
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tomhole
sage
Reged: 12/20/02
Posts: 443
Loc: California, MD
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Quote:
(p.s. I never saw people, mods included, on the refractor forum saying "Bah, don't buy an Orion 80ED or , goodness forbid, an achro, just get a 6" AP , everything else is a waste, but for some reason its totally acceptable on the BV forum..I find this odd, and wish it would stop)
There's a big difference. To go from economy to good in the binoviewer world costs $200. To go from economy to the best that is made costs $1,300. To go from an economy 4" acro to the best 4" telescope money can buy would cost thousands of dollars.
A better comparison is ep's. Start with a plossl. Decide if that is good enough and if spending $200+ more on a Nagler is worth it. The Nagler brings you some goodies. Only you can decide if those goodies are worth $200 more.
It's ok to buy $200 binoviewers. It's ok to determine they work fine (they do). It's also ok to say that spending $200 more will get you some extra stuff (CA, quality, mechanical reliability, made in the USA, etc...) I do think it is silly to say that the $200 binoviewers aren't worth the $$$.
Buyers decide what is important and what is value. Personally, my minimum starting binoviewer is the Denk Big Easy. That extra $200 (actually less for a dob user) is worth what I get. For others, that does not hold true. Doesn't mean I'm better than them, or the $200 binoviewers are folly.
There sure are a lot more folks posting than there were 3 years ago. I'm guessing that the $200 binoviewers have actually helped the sales of the premium brands. Once folks try it, they get the same upgrade itch we all get. Just like ep's.
Tom
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11" Starmaster
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
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Quote:
(p.s. I never saw people, mods included, on the refractor forum saying "Bah, don't buy an Orion 80ED or , goodness forbid, an achro, just get a 6" AP , everything else is a waste, but for some reason its totally acceptable on the BV forum..I find this odd, and wish it would stop)
I have seen that sort of post in Refractors, but the mods usually take care of it before it causes problems. The situation here isn't quite as drastic; we are basically discussing three tiers of prices - $200, $500, and $1000. Though the ratios are similar, the raw difference in price is small enough that a larger proportion of BV users move up a notch or two.
Policy on CN is to describe your own experiences and not judge the experiences or gear choices of others. As you mention, we don't always get full cooperation in this. How about it, gang - wanna help us out by sticking with that?
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John C
Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery
AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way
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Chris Schroeder
Postmaster
Reged: 12/11/04
Posts: 8515
Loc: N.E. WI Sky Glow
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Quote:
(p.s. I never saw people, mods included, on the refractor forum saying "Bah, don't buy an Orion 80ED or , goodness forbid, an achro, just get a 6" AP , everything else is a waste, but for some reason its totally acceptable on the BV forum..I find this odd, and wish it would stop)
Thank you Chris, and I completely agree with you. I only visit this forum infrequently for those very reasons. I'm happy with my "cheapo BVs" and I may upgrade eventually, but for now I'm enjoying affordable two eyed viewing. It's not like they're some $50 wally-world special 600X 60mm refractor on an aluminum toothpicked leg tripd. I probably never would have ventured into binoviewing if it weren't for the $200 BVs.
Clear skies and Mery Christmas everyone, here's hoping you find everything you asked for under the tree. 
P.S. Tom you're gonna like 'em 
And if not, I'll gladly take them back plus the shipping cost.
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Chris
Mallincam Color Hyper Plus
10" DSH with SC DSC, CPC 800 XLT
AT 111EDT, AT 102Achro, ZS80FD 10th Anniv, AT 72ED, ZS66SD, PST
CG5-AGT, EZ-Touch, Voyager
POD XL3
Edited by Chris Schroeder (12/24/05 01:29 PM)
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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 6707
Loc: Alaska, USA
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There is no way these $200 binos are a waste of money. If the alternative is no binoviewing, I'd go for a $200 unit in a heartbeat. I cant speak about any of the affordable units other than the Baader Maxbrights, for $200 they are an incredible value. I still reach for my Mark V's (I'm going to sell my Maxbrights), but the Maxbrights are superb bang for the buck.
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http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/tec_200_observations
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Manuel Reyes
member
Reged: 08/05/05
Posts: 70
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Quote:
I dare say it seems it is you Sir who seems to step on Denkmeier products at every possibility!
It is funny how binoviewer users on this part of the CN forum are always coaxed into a mini-war by a few CN users who have less than 100 posts, no profile or location information, and who exclusively post on the binoviewer forum, solely to denigrate Denkmeier products and promote those of another vendor.
That is not to say I disagree with your technical information about the pathlength vs. prism size effect. I have just looked it up, and you are correct. It is the impolite way you have done it that I take issue with.
I feel that Barry's pointing out your technical error was a very good thing. If it hadn't been done some might have felt that the Denk II was superior to the TV and AP. I don't think this was denigrating. I guess we all have personal preferences.
I personally think that Denk has been surpassed but at least 3 companies. The TV, Baader, and the Siebert Echelon and Elite binoviewers. The Denk can't come close to the Clear Aperture of some of these binoviewers. I personally think 26mm is too small and can't help vignetting some eyepieces. Al has always said that 27mm is a minimum so as to not vignette low power eyepieces. I will not say anything bad about the Denk binoviewers since I am sure they are very nice but they don't have the specs I am looking for.
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M.R.
36mm 2" Observatoy EP
Pan 27mm 2"
Nagler 13mm T6
Nagler 7mm T6
10 Meade SCT.
8" Orion Dob
80ED APO
BN 22mm binoviewer w/24mm ep's(45mm Elite on order)
Siebert Ultra 15mm's ep's x2 and
1.5x-7x MM OCA
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jrcrilly
Refractor wienie no more
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 30716
Loc: NE Ohio
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Just a little while ago in this thread I posted this:
Policy on CN is to describe your own experiences and not judge the experiences or gear choices of others. As you mention, we don't always get full cooperation in this. How about it, gang - wanna help us out by sticking with that?
Is it easier to understand in red?
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John C
Battle Cry of Reno
http://www.wadsworthobservatory.com
My Cloudy Nights gallery
AT12RC
AT65EDQ
QSI683WSG-8
Roper Scientific Quantix 6303E "project" camera
mystery EQ mount on the way
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tomhole
sage
Reged: 12/20/02
Posts: 443
Loc: California, MD
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Just to add some facts to this thread. CA of the TV and Denks is essentially the same with a slight edge going to the Denks. All Denks. I owned both. I measured both. I know this is fact. But that's not the whole picture. The taller ep holders on the Televues results in a longer light path (16mm longer, to be exact). That means it has slightly more vignetting than the Denks. You will not notice the vignetting difference between the 2 visually.
The Baaders win between the 3 with 28mm CA AND the shortest light path.
Nothing can compete with a 2" binoviewer as far as CA. The 45mm is the best balance of CA nad light path.
Tom
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11" Starmaster
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Hello,
I am looking for A GOOD binov. for planets and Luna studies to use with a refractor of 100mm and 1000mm focal lenght or maybe with a 105 ETX,Your opinion are welcome,Thanks,
Paul
All I can say is I have tried the more expensive binoviewers and feel that the Burgess was at least as good if not better on planets and the moon. The one that would compare to my Burgess and have even more goodies is the WO. You can't go wrong with one of these little binoviewers.
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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Any binoviewer (that is collimated) is better than no binoviewer at all.
In a long focal length scope, the differences between the $200 Chinese binoviewers and the middle or top tier will be minimal. The top units will be noticeably better in fast scopes, at very low power where size of prisms can be a limitation, and high power lunar and planetary observing where any inaccuracy of the prisms is magnified. In between, it depends on the quality of your scope's optics and your eyepieces and how picky you are.
Look at your budget and buy the best unit you can afford.
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Gus
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece
Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 6707
Loc: Alaska, USA
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> and high power lunar and planetary observing where
> any inaccuracy of the prisms is magnified.
If I understand the posts by Roland Christen on this subject over the last few years, that largely depends on where you do your magnification. Magnify before the prisms, and their errors are not magnified. Magnify after the prisms, and their errors are magnified.
For the last five years I've been binoviewing and doing the bulk of the magnification at the eyepieces -- getting down to 5mm eyepieces for high power. Recently I've switched to using the Baader Flat Field Converter (FFC) that Astro-Physics sells, and putting it before the binoviewing (and before the diagonal prism) to do all the magnification up front (for about 3x-4x for planetary). This has me using 32mm plossls and 18mm University Orthos and 14mm Supermono now for highest power planetary instead of 5mm, 6mm, 8mm monocentrics. Due to this change, I've given up on my quest for two sets of Supermono any more. My next planetary purchase will be some 20mm TV plossls and 25mm UO orthos!
I was astounded from the first night I made this change. My 18mm UO orthos have been the best view on several of the latest nights. My 32 plossls have a bit too much scatter for my taste but the view is superbly sharp.
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http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/tec_200_observations
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Ditto. I like using lower power eyepieces and magnifying before the binoviewer. Seems to make a difference to me.
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Paul G
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 4063
Loc: Freedonia
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I magnify both before and after the prisms, with the AP Barcon and 2" Powermates, and up to 3mm Radians and 4mm ZAO's. While I try to magnify before the prisms, the combination I use depends on the focal length of the scope and which combo will come to focus. With the Baader MkV magnification after the prisms isn't a problem and gives me a degree of freedom other binoviewers may not.
I haven't used the FFC, sounds like a worthwhile purchase. The parts chart seems a bit intimidating.
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Gus
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.
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b1gred
Enginerd
Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 16902
Loc: Castle Rock, CO 6677' MSL
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Just for the record, since I think a couple of the posters above were referring to some of my posts about "econo" binoviewers:
What I said is I feel like I could have saved MYSELF a couple of hundred dollars by skipping the purchase of an "econo" binoviewer. In MY case I was testing the waters and probably should have gone with premium models first.
I have NEVER criticized anyone's decision to go with "economy" models, you have to get what is right for you and I respect the decisions the individuals have made.
What I HAVE said, or what the bottom line of my thinking is, "Buy the BEST you can aford, this is not a place to go cheap if you can afford to go first class."
I feel this is sound policy, just as buying a top quality mount, or the best OTAs you can afford will result in a more enjoyable overall experience. If you economize in an area, you should be aware of the results of that decision. To disregard that thought process - especially when attempting to help others make a choice - would be irresponsible.
If you have purchased and enjoy economy binoviewers, more power to you, I'm happy for you and agree with everyone that ANY binoviewer is better than NO binoviewer.
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"Dark Skies & Great Viewing"
RandyR / W0RDR
GPS 9.25 XLT/Sky Align /FeatherTouch
TV85 w/FeatherTouch
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
What I said is I feel like I co
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
What I said is I feel like I could have saved MYSELF a couple of hundred dollars by skipping the purchase of an "econo" binoviewer. In MY case I was testing the waters and probably should have gone with premium models first.
I think I understand. You feel you wasted your money on the "cheap" binoviewers you purchased although in my opinion you could resell it and get most of your money back. I think we could all stand to lose $20 to $50. Secondly you feel *you* should have gone much closer to the top as you did with your Denk II and PS which leaves a lot of us out since we can't afford a setup like yours at $1300+. The Denk II and PS would be a *real* upgrade no doubt in certain respects.
I think the problem is that these $200 binos might be "Cheaper" then other binoviewers labeled "premium" but offer features not offered by some of the more expensive models not so far up the latter as the TV, Denk II and Siebert Echelon. So when I have to start giving up features to get other features I call this a trade-off not an upgrade. The Burgess/ WO have diopters and Multi coatings that some of the others lack, but they have a little more aperture. Once again you trade one thing for another. They come with a corrector but not eyepieces. Once again "trade not upgrade". I feel this should NOT be missed when an "upgraded model" is recommended. So the Siebert Optics $399 package or the Denk BE also $399 are not trading me up enough to offset what I would lose in the process. Just my 2 cents.
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