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Coliwabl
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 925
Loc: Dallas, Oregon, USA
M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha
      #835949 - 02/21/06 03:27 PM Attachment (75 downloads)

I've read that the Orion Skyglow filter not only helps cut out light pollution but that it also brings out more Ha. I am sure it is not as good as a real Ha filter such as those from Hutech, etc., but I wanted to give it try before spending the bucks for the dedicated Ha filter. I was especially interested in the effect with my 20Da.

I am surprised by the difference. Has anyone out there used a dedicated Ha filter with the 20Da yet. If so, I am interested in seeing a shot or two so that I can compare yours with mine.

Thanks in advance for the help you can provide.

The two shots of M42 were taken using only the Skyglow Filter. I was disappointed because I was unable to take any shots without the filter before clouds rolled in. I am sure that when I get the with and without Skyglow filter shots that the results will be much better.

The top shot is the combination of 23 exposures while the bottom shot is the combination of 10 (30 sec) shots and 1 (2) minute shot.

Taken with a Canon 20Da mounted to a Meade 8" SMT SCT on an LX200 mount using an f/6.3 focal reducer and an Orion Skyglow filter.

5 x 2 minutes ISO 800
5 x 3 minutes ISO 800
2 x 4 minutes ISO 800
1 x 2 minutes ISO 1600
10 x 30 secs. ISO 800

All shots were unguided and processed with Registax and Photoshop CS2.

Attachment

--------------------
Sky Watcher EQ-6 Pro w/Synscan
Orion 10" F/4.7 Newt
8" Astro-Tech f/4 Imaging Newt
Meade 80mm Series 5000 Triplet
Canon 7D
Canon T2i Hap Griffin Modified w/Astrodon IR
Canon 20Da
Imaging Source 41AU02.as mono
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
2.5 Powermate
Astronomik Ha,OIII,and SII 12nm cmos clips
Registax 6.1
Adobe Photoshop CS5 Extended
Adobe Lightroom 4.0
Starry Night 6.0



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c131frdave
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Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 4376
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Coliwabl]
      #835991 - 02/21/06 03:53 PM

That's a really cool picture. I like the detail. What I am wondering, though, is why it's so red. If you shot with a Ha filter, or a close relative of, you should have virtually no red at all. Is this a result of processing, or was it red out of the camera? How did you go about color balancing?

Just curious because it looks like I'm going to have about 3 hours of clear skies tonight and I plan to try out the new Ha filter.

--------------------
Tak NJP

Various sizes and shapes of formed glass


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Coliwabl
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 925
Loc: Dallas, Oregon, USA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: c131frdave]
      #836121 - 02/21/06 05:36 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

Ok, now I am confused. I have been under the impression that since a Ha wavelength is red, using a filter should actually accent the red, not neutralize it.

Although I did edit the shots with Photoshop, doing so brought out the red even more than the original. The original, using the Skyglow brought out the Ha even more than the 20Da without it.

Please help me to understand what I may have been misunderstanding for so long. What difference should a Ha filter make with say, M42?

I am including one of the undedited exposures using the Skyglow and one from a previous session without the Skyglow. The Skyglow exposure is much more in red.

Thanks - Dennis

Attachment

--------------------
Sky Watcher EQ-6 Pro w/Synscan
Orion 10" F/4.7 Newt
8" Astro-Tech f/4 Imaging Newt
Meade 80mm Series 5000 Triplet
Canon 7D
Canon T2i Hap Griffin Modified w/Astrodon IR
Canon 20Da
Imaging Source 41AU02.as mono
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
2.5 Powermate
Astronomik Ha,OIII,and SII 12nm cmos clips
Registax 6.1
Adobe Photoshop CS5 Extended
Adobe Lightroom 4.0
Starry Night 6.0



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Rammysherriff
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/26/04
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Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Coliwabl]
      #836161 - 02/21/06 05:51 PM

Dennis, I use a Ha filter and all you do get is a red image - not sure why Dave said what he did, unless he thought you meant a Ha blocking filter?

Whether the Skyglow filter is enhancing the Ha or just the red end of the spectrum I couldn't tell you from the image - perhaps the histogram might hold some clues?

--------------------
Simon.

One man and his shed: http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb288/Astroshed/


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c131frdave
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Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 4376
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Rammysherriff]
      #836168 - 02/21/06 05:55 PM

I whoopsed. I was thinking of the OIII filter. Whoops!! Of course it should be mostly red!!

--------------------
Tak NJP

Various sizes and shapes of formed glass


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Shadowalker
Apocaloptimist


Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 10857
Loc: Carriere, Mississippi, USA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Rammysherriff]
      #836172 - 02/21/06 05:59 PM

Yeah, I thought Ha gave a red image as well. But Dennis, if that's shot with the Orion Skyglow, then it's too red. There's some blue/green in M42 as well. Skyglow isn't perfectly color balanced, but I doubt it'd give the red image you presented.

But.... alll that said, great detail, good tracking and an outstanding image.

--------------------
"The truth rarely gets in the way of a good story. ~ R. Woods


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tjensen
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Reged: 02/16/05
Posts: 2488
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Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Rammysherriff]
      #836180 - 02/21/06 06:05 PM

A H-alpha filter only allows the light of H-alpha to pass. So your images are red.

Dennis, that is a great photo! I have never considered the Skyglow filter as an imaging filter before, but now that I have seen your results, I will have to give it a try! I know it has roughly the same wavelength responce as the Baader UHC nebula filter. Too bad you couldn't get a without filter shot for comparison under the same conditions. Do you plan to try again? It will be cloudy here for the next week or more, but when the sky finally clears I want to be ready for it!!!!

Your first image does have a lot of red. Have you tried to bring up more of the blue? That may require more subframes.

Great stuff!!!

--------------------
Tim

Celestron C14 on CGE mount
HyperStar
Meade 10" LX200GPS
Canon T2i
Flea3


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Radek
super member


Reged: 05/30/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Prague, Czech rep.
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #836185 - 02/21/06 06:07 PM

Yes, H-alpha image will be always red. You should combine H-alpha image with RGB image to get natural look of the image. Try to combine H-alpha image either just with red chanel or use it as luminace or both. You can try to experiment with different opacity.

Radek


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Coliwabl
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 925
Loc: Dallas, Oregon, USA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Shadowalker]
      #836228 - 02/21/06 06:39 PM

It looks as if I pushed the red a bit much with Photoshop. I also think that if I had had the opportunity to take the same shot without the Skyglow, and used that shot in the composite, that the blues and greens would come out. We will see, as that is what I plan on doing the next time out.

Edited by Coliwabl (02/21/06 06:40 PM)


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Coliwabl
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 925
Loc: Dallas, Oregon, USA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: tjensen]
      #836236 - 02/21/06 06:45 PM

I do plan to do this again as soon as our skies clear. I just hope it is a little warmer next time out. When I took these shots, the ambient temp was 14 and the chill factor, 10 below.

Hopefully, sometime next week before the moon starts to make its presence again.

--------------------
Sky Watcher EQ-6 Pro w/Synscan
Orion 10" F/4.7 Newt
8" Astro-Tech f/4 Imaging Newt
Meade 80mm Series 5000 Triplet
Canon 7D
Canon T2i Hap Griffin Modified w/Astrodon IR
Canon 20Da
Imaging Source 41AU02.as mono
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
2.5 Powermate
Astronomik Ha,OIII,and SII 12nm cmos clips
Registax 6.1
Adobe Photoshop CS5 Extended
Adobe Lightroom 4.0
Starry Night 6.0



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Coliwabl
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 925
Loc: Dallas, Oregon, USA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Rammysherriff]
      #836241 - 02/21/06 06:48 PM

I had not thought about the Skyglow just enhancing the red. I will take a look at the histo and get back here with the answer, if there is one. I do know that the Skyglow is promoted to provide some Ha sensitivity. If it, in fact really does, I am thinking that with it combined with the 20Da would make a difference.

--------------------
Sky Watcher EQ-6 Pro w/Synscan
Orion 10" F/4.7 Newt
8" Astro-Tech f/4 Imaging Newt
Meade 80mm Series 5000 Triplet
Canon 7D
Canon T2i Hap Griffin Modified w/Astrodon IR
Canon 20Da
Imaging Source 41AU02.as mono
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
2.5 Powermate
Astronomik Ha,OIII,and SII 12nm cmos clips
Registax 6.1
Adobe Photoshop CS5 Extended
Adobe Lightroom 4.0
Starry Night 6.0



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c131frdave
Post Laureate


Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 4376
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Coliwabl]
      #836263 - 02/21/06 07:00 PM Attachment (22 downloads)

The filter pretty much locks into the O3 and red region. So, according to this graph, you probably should have a pretty balanced shot, I'd think.

Attachment


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NeoDinian
Experienced Postmaster


Reged: 10/05/05
Posts: 14043
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Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: c131frdave]
      #836270 - 02/21/06 07:07 PM

Different filters block or allow... (Forgot what they call the differences though)

--------------------
Neo... (Jeff)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10" LX200-GPS/SMT UHTC "Draco"

Rockford, Il.

NeoDinian's Eye on the Sky!

Coming soon:


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Coliwabl
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 01/01/05
Posts: 925
Loc: Dallas, Oregon, USA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: c131frdave]
      #836728 - 02/22/06 12:18 AM

Dave - Thanks for posting the Orion info. It should be helpful to all who might think about using it as an inexpensive Ha filter.

--------------------
Sky Watcher EQ-6 Pro w/Synscan
Orion 10" F/4.7 Newt
8" Astro-Tech f/4 Imaging Newt
Meade 80mm Series 5000 Triplet
Canon 7D
Canon T2i Hap Griffin Modified w/Astrodon IR
Canon 20Da
Imaging Source 41AU02.as mono
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
2.5 Powermate
Astronomik Ha,OIII,and SII 12nm cmos clips
Registax 6.1
Adobe Photoshop CS5 Extended
Adobe Lightroom 4.0
Starry Night 6.0



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comets4tom
professor emeritus


Reged: 02/08/05
Posts: 638
Loc: Texas
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Coliwabl]
      #836733 - 02/22/06 12:28 AM

I looked at the transmission spectra of the SkyGlow filter in the Orion catalog and the transmission percentage of green and blue were comparable to that of the red. I use the Lumicon Deep Sky filter which has similar transmission percentages and actually like the way it balances out the color when shooting nebulae with an unmodified dslr. I suspect that using the filter with a modded camera would result in a strong red cast. More than likely, little color adjustment in processing is needed as the filter seems to give a pleasing balance. (IMO)

Tom Hopkins

--------------------
Vixen R200SS,Meade 2045D, Orion Explorer 90mm, Orion Starblast Imaging Reflector, Vixen Great Polaris DX with iOptron Goto Nova, Meade LX200GPS 8 Inch, AT72ED
Canon 1000D,Orion Starshoot II Monochrome, Atik 16IC


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Levi
sage


Reged: 12/17/05
Posts: 467
Loc: Camarillo CA
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: comets4tom]
      #837937 - 02/22/06 08:23 PM

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the SkyGlow filter. I use an unmodded camera and can never get the reds I want. This filter might do the trick for me and increase the reds considerably. This is definately worth trying before giving up on my camera astroimaging abilities.

Thanks again!

--------------------
Levi

http://www.imageevent.com/cabinetry


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tjensen
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 02/16/05
Posts: 2488
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Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: Levi]
      #837949 - 02/22/06 08:29 PM

Hey Levi,
Remember, the filter doesn't increase the amount of red... it just increases the contrast with the background. Which means that you can take longer exposures... which helps grab more of those elusive red photons.

I have the same problem with my 10D... low red sensitivity. I see that it is clear right now, so I am going to go out and see what the conditions are like thru the scope and maybe try a few shots thru different filters.

Cheers

--------------------
Tim

Celestron C14 on CGE mount
HyperStar
Meade 10" LX200GPS
Canon T2i
Flea3


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c131frdave
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Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 4376
Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: tjensen]
      #838122 - 02/22/06 10:18 PM

What Tim said. When it gets down to the bottom line, filters allow you to hold the shutter open longer to get very specific light information. As long as your equipment is up to it, I'd bet you'll get great results.

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2020BC
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 984
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Re: M42 using Skyglow Filter for Ha new [Re: c131frdave]
      #838475 - 02/23/06 05:39 AM

A Hydrogen Alpha filter will cut out almost all light except light of wavelengths close to 656 nm. If you saw a bright pure light of this wavelength your eye would see it as very vivid red.

Some photographers prefer to desaturate their Hydrogen-Alpha photos and just display them in grayscale (black and white) although the reality is that what they have captured is a pure red light. One reason for doing this is that our brains respond well to black and white images and we can often pick out certain kinds of detail easier in grayscale than we can in red-scale. Visit a photographic exhibition and note how many photos are taken in black and white (grayscale), and how good they look to us. We are good at picking out the detail in them.

As you've correctly indicated an Orion Skyglow filter is not an Ha filter. Instead of a narrow band of Ha light it allows a broad band of wavelengths. It does however reject a wide band of color centred around the yellow. Pesky light pollution actually radiates at just about ALL wavelengths but is much stronger at some. The band of color that it rejects is where you'll find the more common emissions of street lamps (Mercury street lamps, etc..). The purpose of the Orion Skyglow filter is to cut out the reflected glow from the sky caused by street lighting.

By rejecting the wavelengths of common street lighting the contrast between what you want to see (nebulae) and the background sky is boosted. The nebula is the same brightness (actually a little reduced) but the background sky appears much darker so you can see more detail in the nebula.

The filter will strongly reject light at its "pollution" wavelengths including the small amount of light actually emitted by your target object at those same wavelengths. Doh!

The purpose of an Ha filter is to reject ALL light EXCEPT the very narrow range at which the Hydrogen Alpha molecules radiate.

Nebulae emit most of their light at very precise wavelengths, such as the Ha wavelength. There are others like Hydrogen Beta, Oxygen, etc.. Ha is a popular choice for a filter because many nebulae are strong radiators at this wavelength.

Using a Ha filter to view a Ha nebula the contrast you get between the sky and the object you are looking at is the maximum possible. The filter rejects almost all light except the light with a wavelength near 656 nm. This light will pass through the filter. Some of it will be from sky glow.

Even an Ha filter is not precise and transmits a narrow BAND of wavelengths (close to 656 nm). A Ha filter will tend to strongly reject every other wavelength so the contrast for a Ha nebula is the practical maximum that you can get.

The problem you create by limiting the photons captured, to include only those with a wavelength close to 656 nm, is that the total light you are capturing onto your sensor is drastically reduced. All the other signals from the nebula are also rejected. All the Hydrogen Beta, Oxygen and yes, even ordinary 'white' light from the nebula will also be strongly rejected.

So, in order to capture enough light to make a good photo you must therefore take a very much longer exposure than if you took a photo in a perfectly clean, transparent and dark sky with no filter (and captured all light from the nebula).

The original multi-colored image that you captured (the one showing blues as well as reds) is I believe the correct representation (ignoring for a moment the issue of color balance) of what you photographed. The Orion Sky Glow filter passes lots of colors (reds, greens, blues, etc.) but it will have reduced some colors in your photo.

Cranking up the red in software often does little to enhance a photo. The main purpose of using a Ha filter is to bring out detail that might otherwise be swamped by other light sources (i.e. by skyglow, or other light from the nebula, etc..). In fact one of the main reasons that folks capture Ha data is to use it as a Luminance (brightness) layer to enhance the detail of color (LRGB or RRGB) images.

The percentage of Ha that you capture by using a Sky Glow filter will certainly increase, but the total amount of it will remain the same (and will actually probably decrease slightly [say1%] because no filter is a perfect transmitter).

Hope this helps.

--------------------
Global Warming Unbeliever
EQ-6 SN8; Baader MPCC Coma Corrector
Orion 80ED; WO x0.8 Field Flattener
Mintron 62V1P-Ex; & 13V1C Video & DMK 21AU04.AS
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Edited by 2020BC (02/23/06 06:55 AM)


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