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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Hi all !
Although I'm no stranger to HELPING strangers spend THEIR hard earned cash on a particular brand of binocular , today I have been asked aquestion by someone I know very well , who is aware of my interest in binoculars and of my many postings to binocular forums .
She wants to buy her husband ( in his late fifties now ) a " decent " binocular , mainly for daytime use and occasional looks at the MOON and stars at night , mainly in the UK , but also occasionally in their recently acquired holiday home in the Indian Ocean ( tropical climate ! )
I've already suggested he would be FAR better off actually TRYING out a few pairs for himself , but she INSISTS she wants this to be a " birthday SURPRISE " for him , since his old Nikon Action 8 x 40 has apparantly reached a state beyond sensible repair .
She does NOT want to buy him anything which would need a TRIPOD , so I'm presuming 10x to be the upper magnification limit .
A limitation is that her upper cash limit for this present is £250 UK ( about $400 US ) .
He DOES usually wear glasses when using binoculars .
I already have a few specific models in mind , but though it would do no harm to open the question up to you fine and helpful folks here .
Some of the thoughts I've had on this matter include the following .
Nikon E2 10 x 35 ( on sale at Warehouse Express in the UK for £249 )
The 8 x 30 E2s are actually £289 , so are too expensive .
Now regarding the 10 x 35 E2s , I would like to know a few things .
1. What is the ACTUAL eye relief ?
2. Is this model likley to suffer in VERY HUMID conditions ?
3, Would it's general overall optical quality be HIGHER than , say , the Swift Kestrel 10 x 50 ?
Swift Audubon HH 8.5 44 ROOF ( non ED )
This model is available in the UK for around £185 .
I think the 8.5 x 44 combination would be close to IDEAL for the intended purposes , but I note the TFOV is quite narrow on this model , compared with it's PORRO brother in law .
I know the ED version is highly regarded , but have not read a LOT about the non - ED version . Any comments ?
Swift Audubon 8.5 x 44 PORRO ( waterproof )
Has anyone idea just HOW waterproof this model is ?
I always thought the originals were GREAT value for money , with their 8.2 degree TFOV ! -- but they gained a reputation for moisture ingress , which I've actually seen myself on more than one USED version .
Canon 10 x 30 Image stabilised .
This is available for around £225 in the UK .
I've actually tried a couple of these over the past five years , and was QUITE impressed ( given the 3mm exit - pupil ) but I was wondering if anyone had compared one to a Nikon 10 x 35 E2 , and if so , what their thoughts are about them in comparison .
The Nikon Monarchs are much admired on bird forum , but again , they seem to be just above the price zone , at around £285 at Warehouse Express .
Nikon ACTION EXTREME 8 x 40 or 10 x 50 ?
Any comments on the above ?
There are so MANY models of OPTICRON that even I get totally confused by them all ! :- ) -- but PERHAPS one or two of them , such as the Verona roof ( spelling ? ) or Imagic Porro , MAY be worthy of consideration .
Anyway , folks , please have a think about this , and if you can answer ANY of my above questions , or come up with any OTHER suggestions , PLEASE reply to this post !
Regards , Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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dgs©
Postmaster
Reged: 03/29/04
Posts: 15091
Loc: West Monroe, Louisiana
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She seems to be indicating that these will see mostly daytime use. With that in mind, a 3mm exit pupil would seem a good number to keep in mind. Add to that, he is well on into his second century on earth, so he may have more difficulty hand holding even 10x binos. I'm only 45, and hand holding 10x at night can be a bit of a challenge for me. 
All that leads me to think the Canon 10 x 30 Image Stabilised might be just the ticket.
Of course, I am pretty much a neophyte concerning binoculars, so be sure to consider other opinions, sure to follow. 
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- david
8"Ø Newtonian on SVP, Moonlite CR2, Telrad
PST Oberwerk Ultra 15x70 Orion Ultraview 10×50
Hand-me-down Sears Refractor (Discoverer) 60mm×900mm
"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal." --Albert Pike
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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It seems like a good idea to find out if the husband wants to make a major change from an 8x40 (roof or porro?). A 10x30IS would be a big change.
Maybe a binocular like the Orion Savannah 8x42 roof would be something he would like. They are about $350USD.
Again, I would hope this lady could find out if her husband would like to replace his old binocular with something similar or go with something different.
Rich
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richtea
sage
Reged: 02/01/05
Posts: 309
Loc: UK Yorkshire
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Hi Kenny
As you probably already know many believe the 820 ED and standard Swift porro's are excellent optically but there have been some indications on BF that they are more water resistant than waterproof
The eyecup comfort on these models seem to have also attracted variable comments
E11 10 x 35 binoculars cannot be described as waterproof by any means and will again i suspect suffer under testing conditions long term
As for the eye relief much more competent folk than myself have suggested on forums that its around 13-14mm as per specs but i have seen 12mm quoted
Again optically excellent
Perhaps Minolta Activa 8 x 40 WPFP is an option with long eye relief also described as waterproof and apparently well sealed (Bill Cook gave these a good word so thats no bad thing)
I think these can still be bought for £150 ish in UK although its now a discontinued model
Its never an easy task Kenny to recommend for others especially when you yourself are perceived as an "expert"
(and rightly so from what i read of your posts)
So good luck and lets hope whatever model/spec is chosen the end result is a happy outcome for the recipient
Regards
Rich
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12x Canon IS MK11 Porro
10x C/Zeiss Jenoptem/Nikon SE/E11/Swift Ultralite/Hawke B/Watch WP/ Praktica WA Porro/Olympus Wide /Brunton Porro
10 x Belomo Loupe + 10/20 x Silver Geo Loupe
10 x Celestron Regal LX Roof
9x Opticron Minerva Porro
8.5x Swift Audobon FMC Porro
8x Nikon E11/Minolta Activa WPFP/Praktica WA Porros/Smith Wesson(Pentax)Roof/Bushnell Discoverer Roofs/Olympus Wide PC Porro
7x Fujinon CDPC Roof
6.5x Pentax Papilo reverse porro
Nikon ED78A/38 x WA Scope/Eyepiece
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Thanks Rich .
That is JUST the kind of post I was hoping for .
I thought about simply sending Bill C. a PM about this , but I'm sure even Bill would feel very much as I do about being out in this rather awkward position !
Over the past year , I've recommended specific binoculars and spotting scopes to three people I meet from day to day , including the M.D of the company I work for !
Luckily , in all three previous cases , " money has been no object " -- they all just wanted " THE BEST " !
I felt flattered to have been asked for advice in all three cases , which all ended VERY happily for all three :-)
THIS is a far more difficult proposition .
I would HATE to recommend a model which he didn't like .
As you clearly picked up on Chris , LONG EYE RELIEF , and probably WATERPROOFING are probably even more important factors than particularly OUTSTANDING optics .
Even the buyer KNOWS that top of the line binoculars of this size cost around £1000 , so I'm sure that ANYTHING NOTICEABLY superior to the old Nikon Action would be welcomed .
THAT , in itself , ought not to be TOO difficult a hurdle to overcome :-)
Thanks again for your input , Rich .
Remarkable that a TYKE should help a LANCASTRIAN in this way ! :-)
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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Chriships
super member
Reged: 09/09/04
Posts: 191
Loc: Reading, England
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Hi Kenny,
I have the Swift 8.5 x 44 roof prisms and they are not bad at all, being light and sharp, but I find that the eyecups are not that good when bright sunlight is coming from the side. They seem to suffer from a strange sort of reflection in the eyepiece under those conditions.
To throw another possibility into the mix, I was looking at some Opticron binos earlier this week and they didn't seem too bad at all. They were waterproof 8 x 42 porro prisms and I think a fairly recently introduced model. Unfortunately U wasn't interested enough to ask for a price.
Hope this helps.
Chris P
Always remember you can never buy a Rolls Royce at Ford prices.
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Pinewood
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/07/04
Posts: 1065
Loc: 40.77638º N 73.982652 W
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Quote:
Hi Kenny,
I have the Swift 8.5 x 44 roof prisms and they are not bad at all, being light and sharp, but I find that the eyecups are not that good when bright sunlight is coming from the side. They seem to suffer from a strange sort of reflection in the eyepiece under those conditions.
Hope this helps.
Chris P
Always remember you can never buy a Rolls Royce at Ford prices.
Chris,
Do you wear specs? I do and I had the same problem with a number of binoculars, including the much praised Nikon 8x32 Se. I think this is common on all the middling priced binoculars. It was worse with a Nikon EII and non-existent with a Leica BN.
Happy observing,
Arthur
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Bread is not enough. We demand circuses!
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edwincjones
Close Enough
Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
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I have the Swift Audubon porro 8.5x44 ED and am very pleased with them. (the ED may go overprice, but the nonED are in her price range). For me, age 59, I can hold the binoculars steady, but I cannot hold 10x steady enough. I use them more for daytime, but they are good at night also.
CA has not been noticeable, but they are soft at the edges.
edj
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ngc6475
Fearless Spectator
Reged: 03/02/02
Posts: 5024
Loc: 38°21'N 120°55'W
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Hi Kenny,
I think the EII line, while fine optically, may have too little ER to be useful, and may suffer from the humidity, as well. The Swift Audubons have been reported to suffer a similar lack of comfortable ER, although I haven't had the pleasure of trying one personally. I like Rich's suggestion of the Minolta Activas in that they are relatively water resistant and have comfortable ER, as well. I recently picked up a 7x35 WP.FP and, for an inexpensive binocular, it performs very well, having good on axis sharpness and a wide fov. The 8x model is reputed to be of similar quality and is also inexpensive. The Nikon Action Extreme, according to many reports, is said to be equally servicable as compared to the Minoltas and are also reasonably priced. Rich N's suggestion of the Canon 10x30IS is an interesting suggestion, too. I hope you find an appropriate binocular; good luck bino hunting!
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Walter
"There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls."
-George Carlin
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Rich N ,
One problem with Orion Savannah , is that , like binoculars branded Eagle Optics or Leupold , they are hard to find in the UK .
I'm SURE there will be literally IDENTICAL models here , probably under the Opticron name , but it's working out WHICH of the many models they are which is the problem !
The Minolta Activa 8 x 40 WPFP would appear to tick all the right boxes -- it's just a case of FINDING a UK supplier .
Googling for UK suppliers comes up with several of that RANGE , but no 8 x 40s thus far !
I have 2 weeks to yet to make a suggestion and this will give me a good excuse to try a few out :-)
Unfortunately , I will be away for 10 nights from tomorrow -- too FAR away from any decent retailers !
Keep the suggestions coming folks !
Regards , Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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ngc6475
Fearless Spectator
Reged: 03/02/02
Posts: 5024
Loc: 38°21'N 120°55'W
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Nikon's Sporters might be a reasonable choice. They are inexpensive roof prism binoculars with good eye relief. They are popular among birders for their sharp optics, excellent lens coatings, twist up eye cups, and rubber armoring. I am not sure whether they are phase coated, but they represent a viable choice among the binoculars listed so far.
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Walter
"There are nights when the wolves are silent and only the moon howls."
-George Carlin
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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 2039
Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
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Quote:
I know the ED version is highly regarded , but have not read a LOT about the non - ED version . Any comments ?
Swift Audubon 8.5 x 44 PORRO ( waterproof )
Has anyone idea just HOW waterproof this model is ?
For some strange reason, I have three pairs of 8.5x44 Swift Audubons. 1 old non-armored, 1 armored, and 1 ED.
Re being Waterproof:
I have not have a problem with them, but they have not been used in a tropical or sub-tropical environment. I have never used gotten then drenched, or soaked them in a bucket, etc. ala Cornell Bird Lab test style. I have used them in light rain, with no problems. (In heavy rain, and if out in it, I find the build up of water on the out side of the objectives, and in my eyes compromises any binocular i use.)
I have "heard" of moisture problems though, in the old model, so i imagine there is something to it. I do not recall how either armored or not has done in Cornell bucket and freezer testing. I do not know how any porro model that is not individual focus could be truly water-proof.
Ah, yes, the glass.
In direct comparison to two other glasses I have (Zeiss 7x42 Dialyts, and 10x42 Leica, arms braced and at rest:
Sharpness and contrast. The Swifts have a slight edge, to my eye, over the Leica, and equal to the Zeiss, except for strong back or side lighting. the ED version of the Audubon is top in that situation, with the Zeiss second, lecia 3rd, and the regular Swifts after that.
The Swifts really are sharp beyond their price point. For me, in my small stable of glasses, the two most used are the Swift ED and the Zeiss.
The Zeiss has a flatter field, or less sharpness fall off as you go to the edge, than the Swifts. Eye relief is a dream with the Zeisses (I wear eye glasses). Ditto on FOV.
A
lso, the Zeiss exspecially, and the Leica to a lesser extent, have a quality that is hard to pin. The best way i can describe it, is they are "comfortable", zero strain, to the eyes. It is noticed under heavy use. You can also kind of feel it, literally. I assume that may be due to the top-end quality of alignment, and internal focus movement.
The ED version of the swifts do have superior color correction to others mentioned here. You see it for instance, if you point any of them at the moon. It is like looking through two tiny 80 ED's, so to speak. Also, for me on a practical level, I can discern the color of the inside of a Crow's mouth, from farther away with the ED's, (first year American Crows have red mouth interiors).
Anyway (geez this is long) Optically, the Swift porro audubons, 8.5x optically play in a spendy field. They should be compared against (optics speaking) the top end binos, actually, I have done that for extended periods three times at vendor display booths at a hawk migration sight.
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"May I have the ability to reduce the uncertainties I can; the willingness to work with the uncertainties I cannot; and the scientific knowledge to know the difference."
Based upon an adaptation from Reinhold Niebuhr's Serenity Prayer, by J. Barsugli, C. Anderson, J. Smith and J. Vogel.
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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 2039
Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
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Here is the 2005 Cornell Bird Lab Binocular test report for those interested. Appears Nikon Monarchs came in high in their price catagory. Did not see a reference here to their classic WP test though.
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"May I have the ability to reduce the uncertainties I can; the willingness to work with the uncertainties I cannot; and the scientific knowledge to know the difference."
Based upon an adaptation from Reinhold Niebuhr's Serenity Prayer, by J. Barsugli, C. Anderson, J. Smith and J. Vogel.
Edited by moynihan (05/11/06 11:21 AM)
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Jay ,
Thanks for your comments .
The Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT and Swift Audubon Porro being two of my favourite , and easily most used models , I can relate to the points you made about those .
Walter , Yes , the much vaunted ( on BF ) Sporters also came into my thoughts from the outset , but I forgot to include them in my original post .
I'm almost certain they are NOT phase coated though , and have been on sale for £99 at W.E for MONTHS now !
I was hoping that for £250 , phase - coated roofs could come into the equation !
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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moynihan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 2039
Loc: Lake Michigan Watershed
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Another glass perhaps is the Eagle Optics Platinuim line, specifically the 8x42 Ranger. This one may be available in different brands? Rumored to be a Vixen product.
A friend has the 8x32 of which I am very impressed. They also play above their price point. Some reports of slow focus in prolonged very cold conditions, but should not be a concern in hot/humid.
--------------------
"May I have the ability to reduce the uncertainties I can; the willingness to work with the uncertainties I cannot; and the scientific knowledge to know the difference."
Based upon an adaptation from Reinhold Niebuhr's Serenity Prayer, by J. Barsugli, C. Anderson, J. Smith and J. Vogel.
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Quote:
Rich N ,
One problem with Orion Savannah , is that , like binoculars branded Eagle Optics or Leupold , they are hard to find in the UK .
-snip
Regards , Kenny
I said "like" the Orion Savannah.
Rich
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< I said "like" the Orion Savannah >
Sorry Rich - I must have BLINKED when I read that the first time , so I will re - phrase my statement accordingly !
One problem with binoculars LIKE the Orion Savannah , and binoculars branded Eagle Optics or Leupold , is that they are hard to find in the UK .
There are SCORES of 8 x 42 roof prism binoculars available under various names , some phase coated , others not .
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for one person to work out which are SIMILAR and which are IDENTICAL , which is one reason I hoped to " share the task " with others here when I started the " Wouldn't It Be Nice " thread .
Kenny
--------------------
Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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Rich N
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/22/04
Posts: 5618
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, Calif...
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Can't you:
1. Narrow down the search by looking at the general specs and the price? Specs that would be similar to the Orion Savannah and a price something like the Savannah. I assume there are websites with lots of binoculars sold in the UK.
2. Find stores in your part of the UK that sell the ones on your short list and go have a look through them? Maybe some of the other folks on this list could help you check out the binoculars in the stores (stores in the UK) on your short list?
Rich
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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< Can't you:
1. Narrow down the search by looking at the general specs and the price? Specs that would be similar to the Orion Savannah and a price something like the Savannah. I assume there are websites with lots of binoculars sold in the UK.
2. Find stores in your part of the UK that sell the ones on your short list and go have a look through them? Maybe some of the other folks on this list could help you check out the binoculars in the stores (stores in the UK) on your short list? >
Rich ,
That is almost EXACTLY what I am in the process of CONSIDERING doing !
On the other hand -- I could save a LOT of time and effort by just ordering ANY of the ones I have in mind , and hope for the best !
I note the TFOV of the 8x Savannah is 6.3 degrees , which I think is narrow for a 8x " all round " binocular .
I'm wondering about the Helios 8 x 42 Am6 , Japanese made , phase corrected waterproof roof -- less than £200 -- and LOOKS very similar to one or two others costing considerably more !
Kenny
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Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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richtea
sage
Reged: 02/01/05
Posts: 309
Loc: UK Yorkshire
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Hi again Kenny
Now you've mentioned the Helios bins it set me thinking about another possible
Avian 8 x 32 waterproof roof with 7.5 fov and decent eyerelief/adjustable cups
I believe these are an Ace Cameras sourced model but i have seen some favourable comments on this model and its about the right budget
Probably a badged clone from the same factory as Helios and one or two others but does have phase coating and is Japanese manufactured
No one said it would be easy !!
Regards
Rich
(Tyke)
--------------------
12x Canon IS MK11 Porro
10x C/Zeiss Jenoptem/Nikon SE/E11/Swift Ultralite/Hawke B/Watch WP/ Praktica WA Porro/Olympus Wide /Brunton Porro
10 x Belomo Loupe + 10/20 x Silver Geo Loupe
10 x Celestron Regal LX Roof
9x Opticron Minerva Porro
8.5x Swift Audobon FMC Porro
8x Nikon E11/Minolta Activa WPFP/Praktica WA Porros/Smith Wesson(Pentax)Roof/Bushnell Discoverer Roofs/Olympus Wide PC Porro
7x Fujinon CDPC Roof
6.5x Pentax Papilo reverse porro
Nikon ED78A/38 x WA Scope/Eyepiece
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