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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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The following originally appeared on Astromart’s two birding forums in 4 parts. I thought it might stimulate some lively discussion to revive this old favorite topic of power vs. resolution.
Here’s a re-hash of some of my old backyard mini-tests. They are not at all conclusive, nor scientific, nor meant to sway anybody’s opinions. It has amused me to do variations on this theme for several years, pitting whatever optics I have on hand against each other. I like to think that I’ve learned just a tiny, tiny bit by doing this kind of thing. One thing I’ve learned is that there is no one single answer for all situations.
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Power vs. resolution
I've often heard that "Z" power equates to the maximum detail resolution in handheld binos. Likewise, I've often believed that doubling the power halves the apparent distance. So I wanted to see how these two conflicting theories related to my actual experience. To do that I taped selected brightly colored supermarket fliers with varying print sizes and fonts to cardboard boxes and set them at measured distances and then attempted to read the finest level of print possible with various handheld binos.
I did this 3 times in varying light levels from full sunlight, to twilight. What follows are the results from the most neutral lighting test conducted between 6:30-7:30 pm 5/9/02 with neither direct light nor shadow. Before I begin with the results, let me make it plain that the numbers themselves are meaningless. They change with each user, and with each lighting condition and with each different level of contrast. What's relevant is their relationship. What follows is the best possible situation for each bino in even lighting. Both bright light and shadow make things worse.
15yd-
7x35 Nikon Naturalist-- 4mm, almost 3mm resolution
7x50 Steiner Night Hunters-- can't focus this close
8x24 Minox BD P-- barely 4mm, poor color separation
10x50 Leupold Wind River-- easily 3mm, not 2mm
12x50 Pentax PCF V-- easy 3mm, barely 2mm
12x50 Nikon SE-- 2mm if high contrast, easy 3mm phenomenal color separation
25yd-
7x35 Nikon Naturalist- barely 4mm only w/extreme contrast and concentration
7x50 Steiner Night Hunters -barely 4mm, but good color separation
8x24 Minox BD P -4-5mm but only with high contrast colors
10x50 Leupold Wind River--4mm, good even performance
12x50 Pentax PCF- very solid 4mm, shake evident
12x50 Nikon SE- 3mm across colors & contrasts, fantastic color separation
50yd-
7x35 Nikon Naturalist-10mm at best, 17mm at worst
7x50 Steiner Night Hunters - easily 10mm even w/poor contrasting letters
8x24 Minox BD P - 12mm at best, 17mm on average, 28mm w/poor contrast
10x50 Leupold Wind River - 10mm w/high contrast, 12mm w/poor contrasting letters
12x50 Pentax- easily 10mm, but not 8mm at all
12x50 Nikon SE- 9mm easy, 7mm w/high contrast letters
What I get out of this little exercise is that neither the bit about "Z" power being ideal, nor the bit about increasing the power to decrease the distance is always linearly true. Clearly the bit about seeing the most detail depends more on lighting, quality of optic and contrast of target subject than on power alone. But also, clearly, raw power can compensate for a few of those variables.
One thing worth pointing out is that the 7x50 Steiner Night Hunters were by far the most even and consistant performers across a range of lighting conditions. This doesn't mean that I think they're at all suitable for most (or any) birding. In most every instance that I can think of a set of center focus 10x50's is a better choice.
The other thing that really struck me was how close in performance the relatively inexpensive Pentax PCF V 12x50's were to the MUCH more expensive Nikon SE 12x50's. Make no mistake, the Nikon SE's have an edge in clarity and color definition that I've not seen in any other binos including the very finest phase coated roof prisms, but it's a subtle step up, not an overwhelming one.
***********************
For this 2nd mini-test, I wanted to concentrate on the subtle differences of more average birding binoculars at more standard ranges from a braced position. In other words, I wanted to see what all I could wring out of these binoculars. It is merely a snapshot of what these particular, individual optics were capable of on this particular day. I started out attempting to test the resolution of various sizes of print on a brightly colored supermarket flyer in *shade* at 50yds. This proved to be so far beyond the capabilities of these binoculars, than I dropped the distance to 30yds and moved the target into a well lighted area out of either direct sunlight or shadow. What follows is the absolute smallest lettering that I could consistently read. Binoculars were handheld, albeit with my arms solidly braced on a picnic table.
Minox BD8x24P porro, 14mm wide eye lens-- 5mm high contrast lettering, much worse on low contrast lettering
Celestron Birdwatcher 7x35 porro, 17mm wide eye lens-- 7-9mm lettering max.
Cabela's Pine Ridge 8x42 porro, 18mm wide eye lens -- 3mm High Contrast lettering, Some 5mm medium contrast lettering
Optolyth Alpin 8x30 porro -- 4-5mm lettering including low contrast, NOT 3mm lettering of any contrast, good color separation
Tento 7x50 porro -- 5mm high contrast lettering only
Carton Adlerblick 10x50 porro -- 4-5mm lettering including low contrast and narrow font, good color separation
Swift Kestrel 10x50, 20mm eye lens -- 2-3mm high contrast lettering, any 4mm lettering including low contrast
At 50yds in shade ALL of the 7-8x binoculars were limited to 12mm BOLD lettering and none could even do 15mm low contrast lettering. Whereas, the Swift Kestrel and Carton Adlerblick 10x50s could make out 6mm BOLD lettering.
It's important not to read too much into these results. However, it's interesting that there's such an extreme cutoff in range somewhere between 30 & 50yds, and somewhere between bright light and shade. This was noted in the first series of these posts last year, as well.
It's also worth pointing out that none of the binoculars used in this little impromptu test represent the "best" or the most expensive. In fact, all binos in this 2nd test are available under $200US, (except the discontinued Optolyth Alpins, which were bought used for $50.) How would things change if this was a comparison of only the best and most refined binoculars? I don't claim to know, but I would speculate that amongst comparable binoculars, higher powers and larger objectives would continue to be able to resolve farther out.
It's also interesting that amongst low cost binoculars, the relationship between size, power and resolution is not always strictly linear. Clearly there are issues of quality of optics and coatings that have MUCH to do with how one perceives the overall view and how well each binocular does.
In this test, I felt like the Swift Kestrel 10x50s had by far the most relaxed and easy to enjoy view. None others were even close. However, there were some performance surprises. For instance, the little Minox BD8x24P is my most HATED binocular. Viewing through it is not pleasant for any length of time. Yet, it performed surprisingly well, as did the Optolyth Alpin 8x30. It had the best contrast and color separation of any of the 7-8x binoculars.
For me, I continue to believe that 10x50s will show me more of the image, at more ranges than any 7-8x binocular. What's more, is those 10x50 porros will do it cheaper than any 7-8x roofs. However, that's just a personal opinion, and is a moot point for those that can't hold the 10x steady.
So, the differences are lots more subtle than I would've imagined. Somewhere between 25 and 50yds they become more evident, but to me the differences were almost more meaningful in terms of high quality glass vs. lower quality than in terms of power. It'd be darned interesting to try this with some really top drawer mid-power binos such as the famous Swarovski El 8.5x42's.
***********************
Since doing those little impromptu comparisons, I’ve done dozens more in all lighting conditions, and field conditions using a variety of targets from paper to birds. And the conclusion that I’ve come to is that for distance out to somewhere around 30-40 yards, binocular resolution between 7 or 8x and 10 or 12x is really more a matter of the quality of the optic, than strictly the power or objective size. However, out past 50-60 yards, the superiority of the higher powers and larger objectives becomes very evident, very quickly. At 75-100 yards, the amount of detail that is lost with the lower powers makes them unable to distinguish subtleties that are evident with careful observation through higher powers. The other extreme limiter of performance is lighting conditions. But, I’ll save that for a future post.
Mike Swaim
-------------------- 18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
Edited by lighttrap (04/23/04 06:55 PM)
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Mike,
This is a great post that I hope serves to stimulate a few members into joining in the discussions.
I certainly WILL join in , WHEN I HAVE TIME !
Unfortunately , I will from now on , most weekends ( and some starting Thursday nights ) be away from home and my PC.
Whilst "away" , rest assured that I hope to be spending a fair deal of time looking through binos and scopes.
Your post has inspired me to start making more notes of the kind of things I spend so much time doing ( much of which is not unlike the experiments you describe )
I think you already know , from past discussions over on A.M. , that on many issues such as these , I tend to share your impressions and opinions.
I don't think it matters that "the results" do NOT appear to necessarily follow any "linear pattern" , in fact I think this makes the topic even more interesting.
In any case , there are far too many variable factors involved in these kind of tests to even EXPECT there to be a logical "sliding scale" of "performance".
As you well know , these variables include natural lighting conditions , quality of optics , number and quality of coatings,natural contrast and colour differences within the viewed targets, prism types , etc etc .
But above all , and possibly of even more significance to the TITLE you've elected to give this thread , I do not think it just a case of POWER and RESOLUTION per se , but at LEAST a case of POWER , RESOLUTION and OBJECTIVE SIZE.
Some might contest that assertion , and so they should IF they believe that any exit -pupil diameter from a binocular larger than the entrance -pupil of the eye renders the extra area completely redundant.
I find it especially interesting that you cite "somewhere between 30 yards and 50 yards" as being in "that zone in which SOMETHING appears to go awry with optics"
I kinda KNOW what you mean by this , but I ALSO think there is some kind of unwritten "rule of optics" which dictates that such apparant "disproportionate degredation" of resolution is in fact "proportional" or perhaps " inversely proportional" to actual distance of viewed object , and this quite apart from the effects of atmospheric "haze".
I really do suspect that people who dogmatically adhere to the theory that one only needs say a 2mm exit in daylight have NOT spent quite so many hours as you and I have actually TESTING these things for themselves.
Perhaps therefore it is no co-incidence that such theorists never seem to respond to any practical tests offered to them
Anyway , as I said Mike , I hope others chip in with THEIR experiences.
Regards, Kenny.
--------------------
Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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777Guy
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 615
Loc: 48'29N 122'37W
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Mike, I thought your post was extremely interesting. Comparing binoculars is a challenge as it is subjective and is dynamically variable according to lighting conditions and individual visual acuity. It would be extremely interesting to have two or three experienced observers describe the images they see under identical conditions. You might get identical results but I think you would have three different opinions, though perhaps similar enough to draw valid conclusions about performance. This is a good excercise in proving the unreliability of using manufacturers data and scientific testing to make assumptions about performance. I also agree with Kenny's comments regarding linear patterns. Thanks again for your effort to test assumptions and "see" what really is. Cheers, Jim
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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"Likewise, I've often believed that doubling the power halves the apparent distance."
This is simply people not knowing what power signifies in binoculars. Power in visual telescopes and binoculars refers to angular magnification, not linear magnification. Linear magnification is used with microscopes and reproduction photography.
I think this points to a larger problem of people not understanding optical theory and specifications. There is no problem with optics. After all it makes the binoculars everyone is so fond of. The problem is when someone quotes a little fact and applies it to a problem as the only solution. The problems that are discussed here are very complex. Testing can make valid conclusions about performance IF you understand the limitations of the test and what the test is designed for.
I certainly think that someone looking through a pair of binoculars is far more subjective than what can be done on an optical bench. Personal experience can be good and there is nothing wrong with that. But to dismiss optical theory is silly. How can the theories that create the instrument not be valid in describing its performance?
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777Guy
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 615
Loc: 48'29N 122'37W
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Wilash,
I think your comment was directed to me with regards to optical testing. I may not have been clear about what I was trying to say. Optical testing is where you start, but where you make a final determination about whether or not you like a particular binocular is by what you see through the eyepieces is purely a personal preference. Because after all,if you are considering buying a particular pair based only on test results and specifications, and not by what you actually see through an eyepiece, you may not get what you expect. I certainly did not intend to start a debate concerning the merits of optical testing, because you are correct when you say that would be silly. Regarding Mike's post, he was comparing various brands and different magnifications, he noticed the differences were subtle, "and the differences were almost more meaningful in terms of high quality glass vs. lower quality than in terms of power". Sorry Mike, I hope that was OK to quote you.
I am certainly not an expert in optical science but have learned that when it comes to comparing binoculars and making a determination of what pair to buy, comes down to what you see through the eyepieces and what your personal preferences are, not solely on published specifications.
You are also correct when you state that the problems that are being discussed are very complex. My only problem with your statement is that testing can make "valid conclusions about performance IF you understand the limitations of the test and what the test is designed for".
There is probably is no argument here, I am only saying that what you see is as valid as optical test results when choosing a pair to buy.
Edited by 777Guy (04/23/04 01:36 PM)
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lighttrap
Reged: 02/06/04
Posts: 3833
Loc: cloudy, foggy, humid NC, US
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Quote:
But above all , and possibly of even more significance to the TITLE you've elected to give this thread , I do not think it just a case of POWER and RESOLUTION per se , but at LEAST a case of POWER , RESOLUTION and OBJECTIVE SIZE.
Kenny, as you'll see when you get back, I agree with you (again). I've changed the title of the orig. post.
Mike Swaim
-------------------- 18" Starsplitter II f/4.5
8" Hardin Dob f/6
C5 workhorse mini SCT f/10 or f/6.3
70mm TV Ranger dual purpose birding/astro
77mm Leica Televid APO
16x70 Fujinons on UA Deluxe Mt.
12x50 Nikon SE
8x30 Nikon E2s
and many others
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wilash
Fairy Godmother
Reged: 09/30/03
Posts: 5746
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777guy,
It was not really directed at a particular person; I've seen other subtle comments in other posts. I have been noticing a little resentment/frustration between parties in optical discussions. And it seems to me that this wedge between people who use optical theory and practical experience is getting wider. As a whole I enjoy the discussions on Cloudy Nights, but I would not want them to become acrimonious.
What is the saying? Let he who knows everything make the last post.
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777Guy
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 615
Loc: 48'29N 122'37W
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Wilash, I agree with you as that is the main reason I enjoy CN as it a very relaxed and informative group. I have learned more from this forum and the members that contribute than reading articles and books. I also agree that I would not like to see a wedge between any group offering opinions. If my post seemed acrimonious to you it was not intended to be at all. But after rereading it a few times I may have come across that way, but it was not intentional. I have read your posts and have always found them to be thoughtful and informative. I was attempting to keep the discussion on the original post by addressing Mike's comments regarding his field tests and observations. I think it is an interesting subject. My background is not in optics so I do not mean to proclaim any advanced knowledge, I am just an enthusiastic believer that binoculars are very interesting and enjoyable piece of optical equipment. I have always perferred to look through binoculars that I am interested in buying than just relying on published specs. The specifications is where I start but when I plunk down the money, it is what I see that makes the final decision. Again, I was not trying to be argumentive or acrimonious to your post, just expressing my opinion.
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KennyJ
The British Flash
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
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Well folks,
I'm just back from an enjoyable weekend break and am pleased to see there have been further posts to this and other Cloudy Days threads.
Wilash, I could be mistaken ( again ! ) but I wondered if perhaps your comment :
< But to dismiss optical theory is silly >
was a reaction to my earlier statement of :
< I really do suspect that people who dogmatically adhere to the theory that one only needs say a 2mm exit in daylight have NOT spent quite so many hours as you and I have actually TESTING these things for themselves > ?
I agree entirely that to DISMISS optical theory would be silly, but I also think it would be silly to ignore the practical experiences , amounting to hundreds of years collectively , of many people who have used binoculars day in , day out throughout their lives.
Maybe the two comments are totally unrelated ,and I certainly hope that they ARE , but just to add some weight to my point here ( and this is not intended to be confrontational to ANYONE ) , given that the great majority of terrestrial binocular use is probably carried out in daylight , I would have thought that IF a 2mm exit -pupil was adequate , then we would see many more RECOMMENDED binoculars with specifications such as 7 x 15 , 8 x 16 , 10 x 20 , 12 x 25 and 15 x 30.
As things are , the relatively few models that DO exist with such restricted exit -pupils , and even the VERY expensive ones , are, in MY practical experience, really no match for a mediocre 8 x 40 or 10 x 50 ,even in daylight.
I know of many other people who agree with me on this.
Regards , Kenny.
--------------------
Milton Wilcox R.I.P
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