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ABC
sage
Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
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have cleanly split Sirius at 8-9/10 seeing with:
178 f/9 ED at 146x 180 f/8 MN at 180x 180 f/6 MN at 216x 152 f/9 APO at 152x 128 f/8 APO at 171x
never with a C8 or a 5", 6" or 7" f/10 Mak Cass
good or rather mediocre results? I donīt know.
-------------------- Kind regards, Christian
Meade 178 ED
Meade 152 ED
Intes Micro Alter M500
Bresser 70/700 Achromat
CGE
EQ-6
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Rick Woods
Postmaster
Reged: 01/27/05
Posts: 11940
Loc: Inner Solar System
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Darned sight better than I've done. Maybe I haven't had the seeing for it yet, but I keep trying.
Siriusly ( ), that sounds like terrific results. I've tried with an 8" reflector and a 14" SCT, and haven't succeeded yet.
- Rick
-------------------- - Rick
14" LX200
Cactus Patch Observatory
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom, and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three."
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ABC
sage
Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
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Yes, I could never split Sirius A/B with the C11 or the C14 of our club. Is a medium-aperture refractor or a 7" MN with tiny obstruction much more appropriate for splitting doubles with great differences in magnitude? I just believe it...
-------------------- Kind regards, Christian
Meade 178 ED
Meade 152 ED
Intes Micro Alter M500
Bresser 70/700 Achromat
CGE
EQ-6
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Brian Carter
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 3115
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I have split it twice with a 10" F/5.5 dob.
-------------------- 10" F/5.5 Astrosky
SkyCommander DSCs
A loving dog, Buddha, who tolerates my hobbies
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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 4136
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Any chance with an F/4.5 newt????
Today (just now) i found out that Castor is really easy and Rigel even more. The latter is very difficult my F/5 Newt.Sometimes you see it sometimes you don't. But in the F/4.5 is it very easy, i could see it with my 12.5 mm ortho, no problem.
Does anybody know the distance of Sirius A/B and the magnitudes?
-------------------- Freddy
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
22x85 Helios Apollo (=GO SS)
15x70 TS Marine (=Obie Ultra)
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX
10x50,8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10, 7 XW, N9T6, TV2, BGO 12.5, 9 mm
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m0bius
member
Reged: 03/30/06
Posts: 49
Loc: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Does anybody know the distance of Sirius A/B and the magnitudes?
Sirius AB A mag -1.44 B mag 8.5 sep 7.58" (sept 2006)
- Mike
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stevecoe
"Astronomical Tourist"
Reged: 04/24/04
Posts: 3766
Loc: Arizona, USA
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My first seperation of Sirius with my old 17.5 inch Dobsonian with a carefully made cover so that it became a 5 inch unobstructed scope. I put a cover over the front with a 5 inch hole between the spider vanes. It was actually pretty easy at 250X. This was on a night of good seeing.
I have split it twice with the Nexstar 11 at 330X since then.
Clear Skies; Steve Coe
-------------------- 16" f/4.5 Newtonian on Alt-Az mount by Tectron
Author "Touching the Universe" iUniverse
Author "Deep Sky Observing" Springer
Author "Nebulae and How to Observe Them" Springer
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F.Meiresonne
Post Laureate
Reged: 12/22/03
Posts: 4136
Loc: Eeklo,Belgium
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Quote:
Quote:
Does anybody know the distance of Sirius A/B and the magnitudes?
Sirius AB A mag -1.44 B mag 8.5 sep 7.58" (sept 2006)
- Mike
Thanks Mike
-------------------- Freddy
Obsession 18 inch #1638
Orion Optics 8 inch F/4.5 -1/8 wave optics -Vixen GP-E
22x85 Helios Apollo (=GO SS)
15x70 TS Marine (=Obie Ultra)
10x60 Helios Quantum 4(= Obie Mariner)
10x50 Fujinon FMT-SX
10x50,8x40 Helios Nature sport plus
Eyepieces in use :Pan 35,24,19, N13T6, Pentax 10, 7 XW, N9T6, TV2, BGO 12.5, 9 mm
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Roger Ceragioli
member
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 91
Loc: Tucson, AZ USA
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I have tried many times, including last night when my local seeing was very good and Sirius was at about 40 degrees altitude. But alas, I have never yet seen it.
I did notice that despite using a hexagonally shaped aperture mask on my 145mm f/8 semi-apo, an occulting bar, and a green filter, all of which drastically improved the darkness of the space right next to Sirius A, and despite cleanly splitting eta Geminorum, and seeing E and F of the trapezium clearly, no Sirius B.
I have noticed many times that Sirius A is so bright that it will produce ghost images, whether from internal reflections in eyepieces or between the eyepiece and the eye. Sometimes these ghosts or other kinds of scattered light will create a convincing looking pinpoint image beside Sirius A. It takes careful discrimination to see that such false images are not a small companion.
How do people here know for sure that they have seen Sirius B, rather than such a false appearance? No other double star that amateurs can reach seems as difficult as this. So, I wonder what proof anyone can offer that he/she really has seen Sirius B with his eye?
Cheers, Roger Ceragioli
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ronharper
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 2065
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Roger, When I saw the Pup twice, two years ago, through my 5" f/12 D&G, I applied these tests: 1) My homemade equatorial doesn't track, so I could determine PA from direction of motion through the field. I had no idea of PA before the observation, and I got it right within 5 degrees. I also estimated separation to be about 6 arcsec, but I knew that beforehand. 2) The observations were made near meridian, and I flipped the scope to both sides of the equatorial axis, and observed the same PA. 3) At both scope positions, I flipped the diagonal to either side of the scope, and got the same PA again. 4) I used EPs giving 127x, 169x, and 214x, and saw it in all three, at the same PA, and the apparent separation scaled with magnification.
These were, otherwise, the two best nights of seeing that I have ever enjoyed. I split Eta Gem and also 68 Tau not barely nor pretty well, but utterly perfect and steady.
It looked best at 167x. It was visible perhaps 20% of the time for periods of up to 2 seconds. A completely calm point amid the spewing flames of the mother ship, it seemed to laugh when it came out--how could it survive? It was not merely a prized, difficult, techie achievement, but a truly beautiful and inspiring sight that I will never forget. I sure hope you can see it someday, it's nothing but luck, and being there.
You have done us all such a tremendous service with your ebook on refractors, by the way. I have printed out a hard copy that I like to curl up with, and a glass of wine, on cloudy nights. You deserve to see it.
Ron
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ronharper
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 02/14/06
Posts: 2065
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Oh, I forgot, I also 5) rotated my head about the optical axis of the eyepiece, and 6) rotated the eyepiece in the holder. I guess it's becoming pretty clear here, I had a hard time believing it myself. Ron
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Roger Ceragioli
member
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 91
Loc: Tucson, AZ USA
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Hi, Ron.
Well, I'm glad to see that you were skeptical enough to apply all the tests you speak of. I just find it hard to believe that so many people have seen this when I never have, despite living in Tucson, which often enjoys good seeing, and having made a long practice of observing double stars and faint objects next to bright ones.
I've seen Phobos and Deimos several times, split omega Leonis on many occasions and seen Mimas a couple of times (Enceladus many times)--all using optics that I made myself. How can it be that I'm so unlucky or unskillful that Sirius B still eludes me, when so many people commonly claim to have seen it with small telescopes--even people living at high latitudes commonly possessed of poor seeing.
I don't doubt you, Ron, but the feel extremely skeptical about many of these claims. It's too easy to be fooled by this one. There is a reason why it took an 18.5" Alvan Clark refractor at aphastron to discover this star, despite Bessel's prediction of it years earlier.
Cheers, Roger
PS Thanks for your comments on my e-book. I hope eventually to make a 10 or 11" refractor and finally see this thing.
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 2709
Loc: AR
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I agree with Roger. I hope to see it sometime in the next few years, but I am skeptical of any refractor under 8" revealing it, and of any like-size (or larger) reflector with more than a very small central obstruction.
In Burnhams it states a study made of "the Pup" during a period of very good seeing with the 24" Lowell refractor and Sirius B separation around 9" revealed best resolution with aperture around 18 in., difficult at 9 in, and visible at 6" only because one already knew where to look. Stopping down this large refractor to 9" and 6" GREATLY reduces any aberrations of the lens, since the f/ratio becomes enormous, f/48 at 9 inches and f/64 at 6 inches.
Edited by John Fitzgerald (12/14/06 09:08 PM)
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 2709
Loc: AR
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At the latitude of Heidelburg, Germany (49 N), Sirius never rises more than 25 degrees above the horizon. This would tend to make seeing the companion very difficult in any aperture. I think that observers at latitudes south of 30 degrees N. would have a much better chance, all other things being equal.
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ABC
sage
Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
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Quote:
At the latitude of Heidelburg, Germany (49 N), Sirius never rises more than 25 degrees above the horizon. This would tend to make seeing the companion very difficult in any aperture. I think that observers at latitudes south of 30 degrees N. would have a much better chance, all other things being equal.
Thatīs right, but we often have here extremely clear skies and best seeing at the top of the mountains near Heidelberg (i.e. Black Forest or Odenwald).
-------------------- Kind regards, Christian
Meade 178 ED
Meade 152 ED
Intes Micro Alter M500
Bresser 70/700 Achromat
CGE
EQ-6
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photonovore
Moonatic
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2792
Loc: tacoma wa
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Quote:
There is a reason why it took an 18.5" Alvan Clark refractor at aphastron to discover this star, despite Bessel's prediction of it years earlier.
I love such historical context, thanks for mentioning this--certainly puts some perspective on the subject.
I looked for the original announcement and found it here in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, March 1862.
According to an article written by Jeff Kanipe, the pair is approaching apastron again and will the sep will gradually grow from today's 7~" value to 9" in 2010 and the max of 11.5" in 2025.
-------------------- Mardi
4" achromat, ETX-70, 8"cat.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website
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ABC
sage
Reged: 10/22/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
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Quote:
Quote:
There is a reason why it took an 18.5" Alvan Clark refractor at aphastron to discover this star, despite Bessel's prediction of it years earlier.
I love such historical context, thanks for mentioning this--certainly puts some perspective on the subject.
I looked for the original announcement and found it here in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, March 1862.
Thank you very much for providing such interesting historic stuff! However, in this context I am afraid to mention that I have recently noticed a report of a comparo of the Lick refractor and an Astro Physics 180 EDT on the gas giants (it was in the web, I actually do not find the link). The "small" Apo clearly outperformed the old giant on the planets...similar results may occur when observing Sirius B...?
-------------------- Kind regards, Christian
Meade 178 ED
Meade 152 ED
Intes Micro Alter M500
Bresser 70/700 Achromat
CGE
EQ-6
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davidpitre
Post Laureate
Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Central Texas
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Quote:
Hi, Ron.
Well, I'm glad to see that you were skeptical enough to apply all the tests you speak of. I just find it hard to believe that so many people have seen this when I never have, despite living in Tucson, which often enjoys good seeing, and having made a long practice of observing double stars and faint objects next to bright ones.
I've seen Phobos and Deimos several times, split omega Leonis on many occasions and seen Mimas a couple of times (Enceladus many times)--all using optics that I made myself. How can it be that I'm so unlucky or unskillful that Sirius B still eludes me, when so many people commonly claim to have seen it with small telescopes--even people living at high latitudes commonly possessed of poor seeing.
I don't doubt you, Ron, but the feel extremely skeptical about many of these claims. It's too easy to be fooled by this one. There is a reason why it took an 18.5" Alvan Clark refractor at aphastron to discover this star, despite Bessel's prediction of it years earlier.
Cheers, Roger
PS Thanks for your comments on my e-book. I hope eventually to make a 10 or 11" refractor and finally see this thing.
Roger, Thanks for your comments. I was starting to get depressed reading this thread. Are my scopes that poor? Is my vision that bad? Is seeing here so horrible?......
-------------------- David
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Roger Ceragioli
member
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 91
Loc: Tucson, AZ USA
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>However, in this context I am afraid to mention that I have recently noticed a report of a comparo of the Lick refractor and an Astro Physics 180 EDT on the gas giants (it was in the web, I actually do not find the link). The "small" Apo clearly outperformed the old giant on the planets...similar results may occur when observing Sirius B...?
Well, having actually used several Clark refractors, and made and used a 175mm f/12 apochromat (as well as many other apos, achromats, reflectors and CATs), I will have to doubt this claim as a blanket statement.
Obviously, the apo will have vastly superior color correction. But it surpasses belief that the 36" lens by which Amalthea was discovered can be called inferior to a 7" apo. Can one see Amalthea with a small AP lens? And split 0.2 arcsec doubles as Robert Aitken did with the 36"? Or reveal Procyon's companion (much harder than Sirius B) as the 36" first did to Schaeberle?
It is known for certain that the 36" was diffraction limited when it left Alvan Graham Clark's hands in about 1887. Since then, of course, the lens suffered devitrification, becoming quite cloudy on the first surface of the crown element. It was, however, restored in the late 1980's by David Hilyard, a master optician. Whether he left it quite as good as AG Clark originally had it is unknown to me. I don't know if Hilyard finished the figuring with the use of an interferometer or not. But the objective was tested in the late 1970s by interferometer before it was retouched. I have the static fringe picture. And this was recently analyzed by Bill Zmek, a noted expert, who determined that as left by Clark the objective was diffraction limited.
So to some extent this is an unfair comparison, since it could not have been made when the 36" was in pristine condition. I would like to read the actual comparison in order to understand what was done. Within the next few months, I may be able to observe Sirius from Kitt Peak, where the seeing is often exquisite. I certainly hope that my 145mm refractor will show Sirius B from there. If not, then I shall have to more seriously doubt all these claims, the best of which to my knowledge comes from Sue French who saw B through a small scope during the Winter Star Party in the Florida Keys. I am inclined to believe her claim, but doubt the others.
As to central Texas, why there the seeing can also be exquisite, as I know from experience. My best Mars view occurred 10 years ago through John Gregory's 8" apo from Lakey, TX. It was stunning. And since then I have seen the "canal" illusion through my own 8" achromat, though only once. But nothing to match the view in John's apo.
So, please excuse me for sounding so negative. I trully hope that I'm wrong, but so far all my years of experience in telescope building, testing, and observing double stars incline me to doubt virtually all the claims for seeing this star through small telescopes. The strong desire to see the star can play tricks on the observer's psychology.
So enough said. I have no proof that it can't be seen with a small scope. But I have not done so, despite looking for it with a lens I made having a Strehl ratio of at least 96.5% and possibly as high as 99%, based on my interferometry. The seeing conditions have been very good or excellent, when I've attempted to see it. I knew where to look and patiently searched, etc. So, why have others at higher latitudes had so much success, when I have failed over and over, but yet seen other faint difficult objects next to bright ones?
It makes me wonder....and doubt.
Cheers, Roger Ceragioli
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John Fitzgerald
In Focus
Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 2709
Loc: AR
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Very well put, Roger. I too hope to see the companion one day, but hold no hope of seeing it with less than an 8 or 10 inch refractor.
Here's a test:
If you cannot see the split of Adhara (Eps Canis Maj) mags 1.5 and 8, sep 7.5", then you definitely cannot see Sirius B at its present separation from its primary.
Edited by John Fitzgerald (12/17/06 12:00 AM)
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