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Mark9473
Postmaster


Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
A small thing... but still I'm proud of myself.
      #1722533 - 07/17/07 02:16 PM

At 8 pm local time this evening, with the Sun still 15 degrees above the horizon, I got the bright idea to see if I could spy something through the milky blue sky. Cartes du Ciel showed me that the Moon would be close to Venus so that would be the target.

I needed my 7x50 binoculars to find the Moon, though once I knew where it was it was reasonably easy to spot. Venus was a bright spot half a FOV towards the lower right. Then I aimed my 80 mm refractor, using the brand new red dot finder I bought today, at the Moon and *guessed* how much to move the scope to find Venus. But there it was! Easy enough at 37x, and a very pretty crescent.

The cool thing was: the RDF's bright red spot could be seen right next to the bright white spot that was Venus. And then it was easy enough to find it just like that in the sky.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet


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Mark9473
Postmaster


Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: A small thing... but still I'm proud of myself. new [Re: Mark9473]
      #1722586 - 07/17/07 02:45 PM

BTW I saw Venus' crescent shape clearly defined at 7x. Anybody got any lower-power binoculars to see what the limit is?

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet


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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: A small thing... but still I'm proud of myself new [Re: Mark9473]
      #1722695 - 07/17/07 03:35 PM

Mark,

Congrats! on finding Venus during the day. I found it a couple times, once by "moon hopping", the other by tracing the path of the ecliptic. I used the 8x32 SE to locate it, and the 12x50 SE to get a larger image. Saturn is also close to the moon in the sky right now, perhaps you can try to find it this evening (you may need a higher power bin to see the football shape of Saturn).

I didn't realize you could see the crescent shape of Venus during its phases with only 7x, though I have heard ancedotes about people with exceptional vision seeing the crescent naked eye. Could you still make out the shape after the sun set and it got darker?

I've noticed that it's easier for me to see the crescent during the day than at night with binoculars. Could be my eyes are overwhelmed by the stark contrast of the bright planet against the dark(ish) sky at night.

Here are star/planet hopping directions for this evening to see the moon, Venus, Saturn, and Regulus (July 17):
http://www.pa.msu.edu/abrams/nightskynotes/index.php

Brock

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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KennyJ
The British Flash


Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: A small thing... but still I'm proud of myself new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1722714 - 07/17/07 03:43 PM

As I've reported previously , I've seen the crescent shape of Venus in twilight through my Captain's Helmsman 7 x 50 binoculars . For SOME reason , on that same winter's evening , I just couldn't get the image sharp enough to resolve the crescent in my Zeiss 7 x 42 BGAT -- although Mr.Onions refused to believe me about that .

Mark , you post has inspired me to go out now and take a look in that area before sunset .

There is a hint of blue sky here for once !

Regards , Kenny

--------------------


Milton Wilcox R.I.P






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KennyJ
The British Flash


Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: A small thing... but still I'm proud of myself new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1723024 - 07/17/07 06:39 PM

Mark ,

By the time I got out , any blue patches had been swept over with orange cloud , whilst overhead , raging black thunderclouds , as we'd had most of the day , accompanied by thunder and lightning and very heavy downpours ( just for a change ! ) began to spill their contents with a vengeance .

Rushing east south east , the storm even cut off the signals from the Winter Hill TV and radio masts , located on the west pennine moors , which tower at the eastern side over a place called Horwich , some 13 miles south - east from our location , as a south - easterly flying Crow may fly , but after 24 minutes of torrential rain , just as the sun was setting , clear blue sky appeared in the west , bringing the thin crescent moon into naked eye view , with the dazzling diamond that was Venus a roughly estimated 5 degrees or so from it , in a 4 to 5 o' clock direction .

With eyeglasses on , using first the Zeiss 7 x 42 hand - held but with elbows resting on the ledges of an opened Velux window in our south west facing dormer roof , I used the craters on the moon's limb to focus the binos as sharply as I could , on axis -- with Venus out of the field of view when the crescent moon was centralised , but as soon as I panned down and right , I could JUST about see the moon AND Venus in the same field , without having to move my eyes around , with plenty of blue sky around both , framing the image -- a very nice picture in itself .

Moving Venus so as to be directly in the centre of view , I could just about see that it's phase must be fuller than the moon's , but with the crescent SUSPECTED at what appeared to be the same inclination as that of the moon .

Quickly swapping over to the Helmsman , which I had left in " perfect infinity mode " from it's last outing , I could barely notice any difference between what I saw through it , and what I'd just seen through the Zeiss .

I couldn't QUITE be certain of the relative size or direction of the crescent through either of these 7x binoculars -- but the sun was almost set by now , and I sensed I was running out of time if I were to avoid the ironic adversity of the sky darkening further .

Switching swiftly to the Nikon 10 x 42 SE , with arms fully supported , I could DEFINITELY confirm that the tiny Venus crescent WAS a crescent , facing almost directly towards what for all the world could have been it's anorexic mother .

All the visual imperfection I recognised as being related to astigmatism .

I sensed that if , in that moment , I could have masked the 42mm objectives down by 50% , I could have been a happier observer , and confirmed without doubt all my " hunches " .

Also , closing each eye in turn , I sensed that even by closing my BEST , right eye , if anything , what I was seeing was less ambiguous .

Following my scantily reported observing sessions over recent months through the tartan - tinted 20 x 90 , not to mention an equally whisphered WEEK spent carefully re - aligning the much maligned Helios 15 x 70 , I COULD , perhaps even subconsciously , have developed a psychologically unfounded fear of the hitherto most beloved aspect of this hobby - namely TWO EYED VIEWING !

I suddenly realised I COULD have arrived at that place called Gilmer Junction , entering a whole new world , which can be seen ONLY through ONE eye .

At that precise moment it started raining again -- very heavily .

Kenny

--------------------


Milton Wilcox R.I.P






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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Weather Report new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1723173 - 07/17/07 08:22 PM

Quote:

Mark ,

By the time I got out , any blue patches had been swept over with orange cloud , whilst overhead , raging black thunderclouds , as we'd had most of the day , accompanied by thunder and lightning and very heavy downpours ( just for a change ! ) began to spill their contents with a vengeance .

Rushing east south east , the storm even cut off the signals from the Winter Hill TV and radio masts , located on the west pennine moors , which tower at the eastern side over a place called Horwich , some 13 miles south - east from our location , as a south - easterly flying Crow may fly , but after 24 minutes of torrential rain , just as the sun was setting , clear blue sky appeared in the west , bringing the thin crescent moon into naked eye view , with the dazzling diamond that was Venus a roughly estimated 5 degrees or so from it , in a 4 to 5 o' clock direction .

With eyeglasses on , using first the Zeiss 7 x 42 hand - held but with elbows resting on the ledges of an opened Velux window in our south west facing dormer roof , I used the craters on the moon's limb to focus the binos as sharply as I could , on axis -- with Venus out of the field of view when the crescent moon was centralised , but as soon as I panned down and right , I could JUST about see the moon AND Venus in the same field , without having to move my eyes around , with plenty of blue sky around both , framing the image -- a very nice picture in itself .

Moving Venus so as to be directly in the centre of view , I could just about see that it's phase must be fuller than the moon's , but with the crescent SUSPECTED at what appeared to be the same inclination as that of the moon .

Quickly swapping over to the Helmsman , which I had left in " perfect infinity mode " from it's last outing , I could barely notice any difference between what I saw through it , and what I'd just seen through the Zeiss .

I couldn't QUITE be certain of the relative size or direction of the crescent through either of these 7x binoculars -- but the sun was almost set by now , and I sensed I was running out of time if I were to avoid the ironic adversity of the sky darkening further .

Switching swiftly to the Nikon 10 x 42 SE , with arms fully supported , I could DEFINITELY confirm that the tiny Venus crescent WAS a crescent , facing almost directly towards what for all the world could have been it's anorexic mother .

All the visual imperfection I recognised as being related to astigmatism .

I sensed that if , in that moment , I could have masked the 42mm objectives down by 50% , I could have been a happier observer , and confirmed without doubt all my " hunches " .

Also , closing each eye in turn , I sensed that even by closing my BEST , right eye , if anything , what I was seeing was less ambiguous .

Following my scantily reported observing sessions over recent months through the tartan - tinted 20 x 90 , not to mention an equally whisphered WEEK spent carefully re - aligning the much maligned Helios 15 x 70 , I COULD , perhaps even subconsciously , have developed a psychologically unfounded fear of the hitherto most beloved aspect of this hobby - namely TWO EYED VIEWING !

I suddenly realised I COULD have arrived at that place called Gilmer Junction , entering a whole new world , which can be seen ONLY through ONE eye .

At that precise moment it started raining again -- very heavily .

Kenny




And that wraps up our stargazing and weather report from Lancashire. This is Kenny Jones, filling in for BBC weatherman John Kettley, saying g'night and have a pleasant 'morrow. Stay tuned for our special report on extreme trainspotting with Ian Allan......................................................
..................................................................................................................................................................................................................
.....How do I get this darn thing off?.....Okay, got it.... I hope Kathy didn't forget to buy the sausages for dinner. Oh my, are we still on the air? :-)




--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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grbrown
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 645
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
Re: Weather Report new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1723995 - 07/18/07 09:48 AM

Brock - that's great, many thanks for that!

While Lancashire might have tempted Kenny out for a brief while Bedfordshire, a few Counties to the South, left us in no doubt it was better to stay indoors.

--------------------
Graham

"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"

BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta



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Mark9473
Postmaster


Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: Weather Report new [Re: grbrown]
      #1724559 - 07/18/07 02:59 PM

thanks all for chiming in...

Brock, you said:

Quote:

by tracing the path of the ecliptic



Could you elaborate on what you mean with this?


Kenny, you said:

Quote:

I could just about see that it's phase must be fuller than the moon's



I didn't particularly look for this, so I can't give you my impression. But to be honest I can't quite understand why this would be so. With the Moon to the East of Venus, it should be slightly more sun-lit i.e. have a slightly larger phase. Any idea why not?

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet


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KennyJ
The British Flash


Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 20139
Loc: Lancashire UK
Re: Weather Report new [Re: Mark9473]
      #1724846 - 07/18/07 05:11 PM

Mark ,

To hopefully clarify what I meant .

To me , Venus appeared as a kind of miniature version of what the moon would have looked like several days ago , with the illuminated section represented probably around 35% of it's full spherical area .

Does that make any sense ?

Please take into account that I'm only a layman , and a Lancastrian at that -- and half WELSH ! :-)

Regards , Kenny

--------------------


Milton Wilcox R.I.P






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Mark9473
Postmaster


Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: Weather Report new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1724887 - 07/18/07 05:31 PM

Kenny, I understood what you were saying the first time, so I'll ignore that you now seem to reverse your argument about the phase of Venus compared to the Moon.

I just had some difficulty understanding the physics behind it. I was thinking that since they're at about the same elongation from the sun, they should have the same phase.

Obviously at the time I was thinking this, I did not account for the fact that they are at a vastly different distance to us, and therefore see the Sun under a significantly different angle. So the phases cannot be the same.

By the way, for July 17 at 20h UT, Cartes du Ciel calculates that the Moon was 12% illuminated, while Venus was 22% illuminated.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet


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brocknroller
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 10/16/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Bedford Falls, Pa.
Re: Weather Report new [Re: Mark9473]
      #1725407 - 07/18/07 10:00 PM

Quote:

Kenny, I understood what you were saying the first time, so I'll ignore that you now seem to reverse your argument about the phase of Venus compared to the Moon.

I just had some difficulty understanding the physics behind it. I was thinking that since they're at about the same elongation from the sun, they should have the same phase.

Obviously at the time I was thinking this, I did not account for the fact that they are at a vastly different distance to us, and therefore see the Sun under a significantly different angle. So the phases cannot be the same.

By the way, for July 17 at 20h UT, Cartes du Ciel calculates that the Moon was 12% illuminated, while Venus was 22% illuminated.




Mark,

The moon orbits the earth about every 28 days while Venus takes 225 days (almost 7 months) to turn once around the Sun. So while the moon is whipping through a complete phase cycle in a month, Venus is moving through its phases at a much slower pace. So that explains why are not aligned.

However, it might be possible that at some time during the year, the moon and Venus are coincidentally in the same phase since they both go through most of the same phases.

You can't see all the phases of the Mercury and Venus as you can the moon, because when Mercury and Venus are nearing "Full" and competely "Full", they are opposite the earth and therefore behind the sun.

Plus, the angular size of Venus changes as it goes through its cycle, so the phases are harder to see through binoculars at times.

Here's an animated gif from NASA, which illustrates the phases of Venus (if it doesn't move, refresh the page). http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap060110.html

Btw, lloer is the Welsh word for moon, but since Kenny is only HALF Welsh, he probably only knows the Welsh names for the first and last quarter moons. :-)

Brrocckk

--------------------
Press: Are you a mod or a rocker?
Ringo: I'm a mocker


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Mark9473
Postmaster


Reged: 07/21/05
Posts: 6459
Loc: 51°N 4°E
Re: Weather Report new [Re: brocknroller]
      #1726867 - 07/19/07 03:51 PM

I hope you're not saying phase depends on orbital speed, are you, Brock?
If you make a drawing on paper you'll see what really causes the difference in phase even when the elongation from the Sun is identical.

--------------------
Mark
Leica 8x20; Nikon 7x35; Vixen 8x42; Orion 15x63; Docter 15x60
WO Megrez II 80 FD / APM 107mm f/6.5 / Mewlon 210 on DM-6 + Berlebach Planet


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grbrown
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/09/05
Posts: 645
Loc: Ampthill, UK, 52:02N 0:30W
Re: Weather Report new [Re: KennyJ]
      #1728073 - 07/20/07 04:55 AM

Quote:

Please take into account that I'm only a layman , and a Lancastrian at that -- and half WELSH ! :-)





The things we say in an unguarded moment - explains a lot Kenny!

--------------------
Graham

"one eye good, two eyes better...the more I look, the more I see"

BT100-45 degrees, plus 35,24,17,13,9mm Sieberts
15x80, 7x50 Steiners
12x50, 10x42, 8x20 Leica Trinovids
7x35 Minolta



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