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BobinKy
Post Laureate


Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 3089
Greybeard develops perspective new
      #1598476 - 05/11/07 12:43 PM

The last four weeks I have read(?) over 30 stargazing books borrowed from the local public libraries. All of this reading has taught me, among other lessons, there are different stargazing perspectives adopted by various enthusiasts in the hobby.

I will try to identify five of the most prominent, which I have grouped into two separate camps. Just like in politics, the two camps frequently appear to take different viewpoints (perspectives) on various stargazing issues.

I do not think any of the five perspectives are superior to the others.

Technology Camp
• Gadget
• Scientist

Aesthetic Camp
• Artist
• Naturalist
• Philosopher

My own stargazing perspective tramps around in the Aesthetic Camp, probably close to the Naturalist or Philosopher tents--although I plan to pursue astronomical sketching (Artist) in my personal stargazing journal.

Have you identifed your stargazing perspective?




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desertstars



Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 41911
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1598572 - 05/11/07 01:27 PM

Like many amateur astronomers (perhaps most, these days) I have one foot in each.

Though I've got to admit I've shifted my weight over onto the aesthetic foot...

--------------------
Thomas Watson

Author of Mr. Olcott's Skies. Available in paperback and ebook from Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

@desertstarsbks

Under Desert StarsEither Way, It's Reading


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Time on my hands
sage


Reged: 07/07/06
Posts: 312
Loc: Central Oregon
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1598843 - 05/11/07 03:54 PM

Bob.

I have one foot in the gadget tent and one foot in the scientist tent as I would define them (more on that later). My undergrad in engineering would explain that but I do find myself visiting the philosopher tent very often! I can not draw worth beans (I had machines to do that!) but I do appreciate the aesthetics of viewing the heavens, does that make me artistic? My appreciation of the views could make me a naturalist since what I appreciate is natural but I would not consider myself a "tree hugger". Like most, I suspect, I favor one camp but seem to spend time in all of them.

Of course I am defining your labels the way I want. One thing this greybeard has learned is that labels need to be defined before meaningful discussions can proceed. I do not disagree with your labels but I may define them differently than you would. If you could expand on your definitions for each perspective we could explore this further and maybe discuss the pros and cons of each area. This could be done here on CN without trying to declare one better than the other. This community has had lots of practice with refractor vs. reflector, company A vs. company B, et. al. We sometimes get a little excited but the moderators are great at bringing us back in line so “flame wars” never really get going here. I love this place!

You have proposed an interesting concept, I hope it grows. Maybe there are other tents to be added, maybe an entire camp not thought of so far.

--------------------
Thomas

18" Dob [still learning about it]
TMB 130 SS [Favorite]
C6-R/Atlas [Old Favorite]
127 Mak/AT Voyager [Grab and Go]
NexStar 8 GPS XLT [Public Programs]
Firstscope 80EQ [used as a demo in public talks]

I LOVE hard work...I could watch it all day long!


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BobinKy
Post Laureate


Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 3089
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: Time on my hands]
      #1599328 - 05/11/07 08:37 PM

Thomas:

This afternoon, about the time you were writing the above reply, I went to my local library to pick up a book I had ordered through interlibrary loan:

Trouvelot, E. L. (1882). The Trouvelot astronomical drawings manual. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons.

A young man, somewhere between 18 and his early 20s, checked me out at the circulation desk. He said he just completed a course on astronomy at the local technical college. I asked him how he approached astronomy--from the scientific point of view or the naturalist point of view.

He replied, "Neither. I approach astronomy form the architectural point of view. I love things that are grandiose. Galaxies are so hugh and to know that I have seen them through a telescope and can go home and gaze at them in my own yard--that is what attracts me to astronomy."

So, Thomas, I guess we will have to add another perspective to astronomy: architectural.

Someone better start on those definitions before the list gets too long! Unfortunately, that person will not be me. I am too busy learning the art of astronomical drawings, from one of its masters at the Observatory of Harvard College, circa pre-photographic era.




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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)


Reged: 06/24/03
Posts: 17639
Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1599698 - 05/12/07 12:49 AM

What type of observer am I, who seeks to understand the science of what I see before I see it, to both understand and have the science help me look for physical sides of the objects for which I would otherwise not look, that keeps gazing because I am spellbound before the beauty?
[After that sentence, James Joyce, move over. ]
Do I have my feet planted firmly in two camps?

--------------------
Don Pensack
www.EyepiecesEtc.com
12.5" Teeter/Zambuto, 5" Maksutov
Sustaining Lifetime IDA member



Edited by Starman1 (05/12/07 12:51 AM)


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Tony Flanders
Postmaster


Reged: 05/18/06
Posts: 8212
Loc: Cambridge, MA, USA
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: BobinKy]
      #1599912 - 05/12/07 07:02 AM

Quote:


Technology Camp
• Gadget
• Scientist

Aesthetic Camp
• Artist
• Naturalist
• Philosopher






It seems to me that there must be some better place on Cloudy Nights to have this discussion. One of the advantages of Cloudy Nights w.r.t. the old sci.astro.amateur forum is its division into specialty groups, but the flip side is that there's nowhere for general discussions. The Beginner's Forum might be closest.

Anyway, I would never divide things up like this. In particular, gadget-lovers and scientists seem more like polar opposites than things that should be lumped together. Scientists are interested in things outside of them, while gadget lovers are interested in their own posessions.

Moreover, naturalists are, by definition, scientists. In art, the "naturalist" school is the one that pays attention to what plants and mountains *really* look like, as opposed to some idealized or romanticized version.

Botanists and biochemists are both scientists who study plants, but botanists are certainly naturalists, and biochemists maybe not.

I definitely consider myself a naturalist where astronomy is concerned, and that has both an aesthetic and a scientific aspect.

Here's a piece I wrote on this subject long ago for sci.astro.amateur. I keep plannning to re-work it into printable form, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

-----------------------------------------

A Taxonomy of Amateur Astronomers
---------------------------------

Amateur astronomers can be divided into four categories: Space Cadets, Peeping Toms, Star Huggers, and Wonks. Actually, all of us probably fall into at least two of these categories, and many of us fit all of them. How do I know? Because all four live inside me.


Space Cadets
------------


When I was a child, I was smart, bookish, unathletic, and weaker than all of my clasmates. Or so it seemed at the time. Looking back on it now, I suspect that I wasn't quite the wimp that I thought I was, but it is the perception that counts. Perhaps all boys feel that way;
after all, all boys are weaker than their fathers.

Since there seemed to be no hope of my getting big and strong in the immediate future, I took refuge in fantasies of potency. I loved all things big and powerful, and what could be bigger or more powerful than the vastness of the universe? In an earlier era, I might have dreamt of sailing the high seas and conquering people with black or brown skins, but I was a child of Sputnik, so I dreamt of conquering outer space.

Long before I became a man, I realized that science fiction is no more a sober depiction of the future than sword-and-sorcery fantasy is a sober depiction of the past. Conquest of the planets, if it happens at all, will not be achieved by lone heroes riding on white chargers, but by huge, faceless, industrial bureaucracies. Still, realistic
or not, outer space -- the ultimate escape -- remains tremendously compelling. As soon as Galileo turned his telescope to the skies, centuries before space flight became a reality, people dreamt of treading on foreign worlds. Surely that is a large part of the reason that the planets fascinate both novices and initiates; we see them, and we imagine ourselves there.

Peeping Toms
------------

Technology is the obvious refuge of people who are smart, bookish, and weak. Since I could not run or fight as well as my classmates, I used to design guns, robots, space ships, and other things fast or strong. However, my attempts to build these things got nowhere, for obvious
reasons. I would have been happy to buy them, but my parents would have frowned on guns, and robots and space ships were conspicuously absent from my catalogs.

But those who cannnot do can always look. I cultivated skills of seeing and listening that continue to serve me well, even now when my insecurities of potence are just a remote memory. And I lusted after the technology of seeing, which unlike the technology of doing, was well within my grasp: magnifying glasses, microscopes, cameras,
binoculars, and telescopes. I cannot posess the planets, the stars, and the galaxies, but I can undress them with my eyes.

Is it just a coincidence, a huge joke of nature, or is it an unconscious bias of their designers that makes telescopes so strikingly phallic? Isn't this part of the esthetic appeal of refractors as opposed to more
functional designs like the short-focus truss-tube reflector on Mount Palomar? No matter. Our eyes are our most powerful organs, and no tool is more powerful than a telescope. Without noise, sweat, or fuss, it brings the unreachable within our grasp.

Just as the smart and weak are drawn to the effortless, ethereal magic of computers, so are we drawn to the magic of telescopes. But telescopes are better than computers, because computers are doomed to be a world apart; the world inside a computer is different in kind from the real physical world. Telescopes, by contrast, connect us directly to the great powers and forces of the universe.

Star Huggers
------------

At the opposite pole from the technocrat is the nature lover. Or is it really opposite? The two are flip sides of the same coin. Before the Industrial Revolution, there were no nature lovers; nature was just there, unremarkable, taken for granted.

I had the good fortune to spend three quarters of my childhood in the city and one quarter in the country. Unfortunately (from the point of view of astronomy) that one quarter was the summer, and for most of the summer, I went to bed before the stars came out. Even so, I managed to catch some glimpses of the real night sky, the night
sky as it was meant to be, the night sky as it was seen by every poet, farmer, and city dweller before the invention of artificial lighting. And one glimpse is enough to hook you.

It is not just modern romanticism that sees magic in the starry night. That sight has been a mainstay of literature since the very beginning; it is inherently wondrous. The heavens proclaim the glory of God.

The space cadet wants to conquer, to trample the stars underfoot. We may not have done that, but we have done second best; we have blotted them out with electric lights, so that they cannot taunt us with their transcendance.

The star hugger wants to be conquered, to lie on his back under the starry sky and abandon his soul, to merge with the universe.

Alas, the universe is not privy to the bargain. It goes on its way without taking heed of us mortals. Stars are, in fact, huge balls of fiery gas, and not especially huggable.

Wonks
-----

It is knowledge that squares the circle. Or, to use a more precise metaphor, knowledge teaches us that a square and a circle are incommensurable, but they can dance ever closer. Likewise, we cannot conquer the stars, nor can we join with them in mystical union, but we can dance with them through knowledge.

Learning comes in many different forms. The first steps are identification, classification, and naming. We walk in the woods and we identify a plant. Then we classify it; we say that it is like some other plants nearby, or other plants that we have seen before. Then, to fix the classification in our minds, as we fix a photographic image on paper, we give it a name -- we call it jewelweed. And by giving it a name, not only do we make it possible to study it, we also make it possible to share our learning with other people. It all sounds incredibly traightforward, but as any botanist can tell you, it is anything but.

Until the telescope, and better, the spectroscope, were invented, we were stuck classifying stars by their apparent locations and brightness. Hence the vast amount of effort that the ancients put into configuring and naming the constellations and the stars.

After classification come dissection and analysis; we want to find out what things look like inside, and how they work. Astronomy is unique among the sciences in the fact that its subjects cannot be manipulated. If you want to find out how a cell works, you cut it open, or put it into a different environment. Neither trick is possible with a star. That is part of what makes astronomy so uniquely attractive to an amateur. The manipulatory sciences demand ever more powerful and expensive tools, like giant atom smashers, which are completely out of the reach of amateurs. The gap is smaller in astronomy. A variable-star observer with binoculars can make valuable research contributions; a humble 8-inch SCT with a CCD camera is capable of original discoveries.

No matter how fancy their equipment, all amateurs are doomed to acquire almost all of their knowledge through book-learning, not through direct experience. Of course, this is true in all fields, and it is true of professionals as well as amateurs. No individual investigator, however skilled or lucky, can begin to match the cumulative collective knowledge of humanity.

But I, for one, find book-learning in isolation to be a little dry and sterile. I like to be able to see the things that I am learning about; I like a framework on which to hang my book-learning. And here, again, amateur astronomers are incredibly lucky. Nobody will ever see an atom or an electron, but most of the subjects of astronomy are sitting out there in plain view, just waiting for someone to admire them and learn about them.

--------------------
Tony Flanders

First and foremost observing love: naked eye.
Second, binoculars.
Last but not least, telescopes.
And I sometimes dabble with cameras.


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edwincjones
Close Enough


Reged: 04/10/04
Posts: 7980
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: Tony Flanders]
      #1599962 - 05/12/07 07:57 AM

the technology camp rejects me-whenever I put one foot there, the gadget breaks and I cut my foot
the sky is full of objects of beauty and wonder-I enjoy thinking/talking to myself and saying WOW over and over

edj

--------------------






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BobinKy
Post Laureate


Reged: 04/27/07
Posts: 3089
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: edwincjones]
      #2418356 - 05/25/08 10:23 AM

Here is an interesting thread from a year ago that relates to the current thread started by LadyAstronomer: Journalistic ethics.

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Faith_J
Sketcher Extraordinaire


Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 5830
Loc: South coast of England
Re: Greybeard develops perspective new [Re: BobinKy]
      #2418616 - 05/25/08 12:56 PM

I suppose I have one foot in the gadget camp because I like scopes and eyepieces but my bigger foot (I do have one foot slightly bigger than the other!) is in the aesthetic camp because I do astronomy for the beauty, wonder and interest in what's in the sky and I like sketching what I see rather than imaging it.

Edit: I didn't realise how old this thread was!

--------------------
Visual deep sky

18" f4.3 dob
7.9" f/4 Celestron Newtonian
8x42 binos
100% visual observing...

Edited by Cygnus_x1 (05/25/08 12:58 PM)


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photonovore
Moonatic


Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 2792
Loc: tacoma wa
Re: Greybeard develops perspective [Re: Faith_J]
      #2418824 - 05/25/08 02:58 PM

Quote:


It seems to me that there must be some better place on Cloudy Nights to have this discussion.




Probably! No "media" here...maybe off topic?

Anyway, simple curiosity about the universe i live within is my sole motivator in pursuing astronomy. I have always been interested in the why and how of things work--both earthly & celestial. These are really two separate but equally *real* realities if you think about it--one with people-- and one entirely without. (A reality shift to one sans people--and earthly concerns-- can be rather refreshing all by itself...but that is another subject...)

Tony also wrote: "I like to be able to see the things that I am learning about; I like a framework on which to hang my book-learning."

This i find very apropos of my POV. There is something to be said for the premise that the closer one approaches reality the better internalized knowledge & understanding about that reality becomes. On the one hand there are words and pictures, digital or printed, as a channel to celestial knowledge--but these are a step away from the reality of the subject--astronomy at this level can be pursued while locked inside a basement as well as anywhere else. But when one gathers and confirms such "book" knowledge under the actual sky, using tools manipulated by one's own hands, the personal and celestial reality become one. This is participation rather than spectation, as different an experience as a TV special about Tikal is from being there in person. The latter experience sticks with you--the former tends not to so much. This difference between pseudo-reality and reality is becoming increasingly important to highlight, IMO, as the distinction seems to be eroding somewhat with progression in technology... (thinking of the increasingly endemic non sequitur of "virtual experience", Wii etc...)

As for equipment, i feel that modern telescopes are simply tools whose only justification for existence lies solely in their *use*. But telescopes are not wrenches--they are deceptively complex tools and as such are a representation unto themselves of other sciences intrinsically related to astronomy, both as a practical application of optics and, in use, of vision science and computer science (imaging). I support the premise that to fully appreciate and exploit what tools enable one to do-- or to access in this instant case-- one must also thoroughly understand the tool itself, its characteristics and most importantly its capabilities. Pursuit of this understanding has therefore always been an intrinsic part of the astronomy hobby for me.

Lest i leave an impression of a completely cold fish, I should mention that when i do get to a truly dark site (more infrequently than i would like), the aesthetics of the experience quite overpower anything else--i always take a low power rich field instrument to the dark sites and just surf the heavens, soaking in the majesty of it all. Oddly, although i have observed "showcase objects" through large (some >20") apertures under these same dark skies (Pine Mountain Observatory in Oregon was the darkest, bortle 2), i found the views wanting aesthetically--i found i much preferred using binoculars--and my own unaided eyes--a preference probably accountable to the infrequency of my visits to truly dark skies and my extreme distaste for carting around equipment generally.

I don't think people are as amenable to classification as are... plants. Preferences, tendencies, inclinations, yes. But I have never met a human being who was not multifaceted to a significant extent when it comes to motivations, apparent or self-reported, relating to any enthusiasm they might pursue.

--------------------
Mardi




4" achromat, ETX-70, 8"cat.
Whitepeak Lunar Observatory Website


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