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Has anyone ever dared take apart an A-P lens cell? It's a 155EDFS Starfire air spaced triplet made in 1998. I don't mean just remove it from the stationary part attached to the tube, but do that, and then actually separate the three lens elements and clean all six surfaces? I realize it's not recommended, and I expect a lot of folks to tell me not to do it, but there are smudges that appear to be internal - and original - that I'd like to finally get rid of. How dicey is it to put them back together and get everything realigned properly? Are the edges already marked for orientation and alignment? Let me add that I'm super cautious, not mention nervous, about cleaning lenses. In fact, I haven't even cleaned the surface of this objective since I've had the scope. Thanks. Jono |
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Box it up and send it to Astro-Physics. Nothing to it. Harvey |
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Call Astro-Physics before you even think about taking the lens elements apart. They are wonderful about supporting their product, no matter how old and how many owners. You need Roland's advice before you apply Allen wrenches. Terry O. |
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What Terry said. Dave |
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Thanks, Harvey and Terry. I thought about sending it back, except they're the ones who sent it to me like this in the first place. When it first arrived I called and was told it was normal and would not affect performance. Plus they're going to charge me how much (?) for cleaning, and I'll be without it for who knows how long? Here's a photo I took this morning. You can see the usual dew dots on the front surface, but there are smudges and even some kind of scribbles somewhere inside that have been there since I got it new in 1998. I'm just hoping I can do it myself. Jono |
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BTW, that's not just transient condensation. It's ALWAYS there, and has been for going on 10 years. Jono |
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Thanks Dave. I do appreciate the advice. Here's another shot, using a flash and with the roof closed. Jono |
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I thought the Starfire 155 EDFS f/7 was an oil-spaced lens.
P.s., At Company 7's site, their info for the new 160 EDF mentions that the 155 EDF was oiled. Scroll down to "COMPARISON WITH PRIOR EDF". |
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Hey Jono, have you ever had one of those wild ideas that you acted on and wished you hadn't? I think this is one of them... Do as the others have recommended, and send it back to A-P for cleaning; now's not the time to save a few $$$... |
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Hi Jono. Thanks, the photos help a lot. You might appreciate some input from someone who has just recently completed doing the very same thing with a triplet lens (but not the same as yours). It CAN be done, but you run the risk of opening up a Pandora's Box no matter how cautious you are. When I disassembled mine I found (you might too) that the 'cemented' triplet was anything but, that there were no cell or lens collimating marks. Cleaning the lens elements will mean removal of the spacers, which HAVE to be replaced exactly as they were. If there are any mistakes, re-collimation will mean extensive (and painfully slow) adjustments to all three elements under rigorous star testing. This is impossible using a real star, and you would have to get your hands on an artificial star to do it. I've read somewhere here that the only way to collimate a triplet properly is using an interferometer and it's probably true; the potential for error is much larger than in a two lens design. But it IS possible, my triplet has a slightly better image than when I received it, the mould that was growing between the elements is gone, and it still gives me hours of observing pleasure. But it took a LOT of time, patience and care and I learnt a few things the 'hard' way... In any case the scope is going to be 'off tap' for some time; this is not something you can knock off on a rainy afternoon, believe me. So maybe better for the AP guys to do it, ... they will do it RIGHT. FWIW, the mould on my lenses did NOT appreciably affect the image quality and this appeared much worse than what I see in your photos. If the telescope works well and you enjoy what you see, forget it, be happy with what you have and don't court disaster... |
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Wow, that lens looks HORRIBLE! If it were me, I would have sent it back to them immediately - I am sure Mr. Christen would not consider that "normal" seeing those photos. I agree with the others - send it back to AP - they will take care of it for you. You really need experts disassembling that type of lens. Position of the elements is hypercritical in reassembly, and almost impossible without the aid of an optical bench. |
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Wow, thanks for the responses. This site is such a great source of information and expertise. Jake, I'm beginning to see that I should send it back to A-P, and I thank you for your comments. Exile made me realize that getting these lenses back in properly would be like guessing the combination to a safe. I wasn't thinking about the exponential complexity when dealing with three elements. Jono |
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Quote: Send it back to AP, something seems fishy. First, 155 edfs from 1998 is an oil spaced objective, not air spaced. Second, looks like a couple of large bubbles along with the smudges, as if the elements had already been taken apart and messed up. Third, I've seen a LOT of AP scopes and I've never seen one come from them with an objective that wasn't pristine. Send it back, pay the price, and enjoy a nice scope. |
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Contact Roland, tell him about it and send the pictures. I am certain that he would want to take a look at it. Do not try this on your own, it is over most peoples head, not a simple clean and assemble. Blueman |
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Thanks Gus. You might be seeing a gap in the white haze or a curve of one of the swirly scribbles. I went back out to the obs and do not see any bubbles or anything that might be considered an "oil level" line (how does one keep oil inside a lens cell anyway? But that's a different subject). I'll take your and Clive's word that it's oil spaced, but for the life of me I can't find out for certain whether it is or not in the literature I have from back then, on A-P's website, or by googling. I just assumed it was air spaced. I did find online a reference to the 130 being oil spaced, but that's all. The elements have never been taken apart. It's been in my possession ever since it was shipped here directly from Rockford, IL. I got on the waiting list 9/30/97, placed my order 3/24/98, and it arrived 12/9/98. I've never so much as wiped or dusted off the objective, nor touched it with my finger. It's always been kept capped and in the observatory. Maybe I should have returned the lens right away, but who wants to spend all that money and wait over a year just to say, "I don't like it", and send it back? Besides, I guess I didn't know any better, or was in denial. When everyone says it's the best telescope made, you want to believe it. And when I called, they told me it was normal. Last night I spent hours looking through 39 pages in the Post a Picture of Your Refractor forum with a lot of lens-on shots. Finally it hit home that mine just isn't right, so I thought I'd try cleaning it myself, and ask here how to go about it. Jono |
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if thats the way it looked when it arrived, something went horribly wrong in shipping, AP would never ship a lens like that 1) talk to AP, get RMA # 2)pull the three socket head cap screws (dont touch the set screws) 3) lift lens off 4) wrap in tissue paper and then box safely... this is an idea of what safe lens shipment looks like http://www.pbase.com/mclemens1969/packing_the_lens 5) send to AP |
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Quote: Unless you are an optician and have all the proper knowledge and equipment to put this thing back together I would not even consider taking it apart. Do not collect $200, Do not pass Go, Proceed directly to AP! |
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Jono, I had stains on my 152 F/9 triplet lens. This was cause I believe from the soft plastic lens cover touching the lens from the previous owner. Anyway, after the cleaning some of my coatings were missing. This was no fault of the cleaning, but I believe the plastic mold release oils or silicon on the cover that touch the lens. The only issue I had is there is no recoating service at the time. This may because it was a cemented triplet and would be much more difficult. So maybe you need to ask that if the coating becomes damage that you can have the lens recoated and how much just incase. As far as you taking it apart "no". Unless you have the knowlege, optical shop to align, test and adjust, I think it would be just too difficult. When I had mine cleaned it was around $250. But that was a cemented triplet and only had 2 sides, and rather simple. Jim |
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Thanks guys. I learn so much here. Mike, that's a great packing job you've illustrated and I will keep that in mind. Jim, if that's how much it cost for your cemented doublet, well, I don't know. I had some cash back then, and I won't say for one minute I regret spending it on the 155 EDFS f/7 and 900 GTO, but every night before I head out to the obs I try to catch Suze Orman on MSNBC. If I were to call and ask her if I can afford to have A-P clean this lens for me, I know what she'd say. DENIED!
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Suze Orman would have a stroke if she ever met me.
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Mark, thanks for that. It's the first time I've laughed today. Jono |
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Hi Jono, Don't even think of taking the lens cell apart. Your 155 is definetely oilspaced. Only Astro-Physics and Baader (Germany) can clean and re-oil your lens. Might even be a warranty case. Please contact Marj or Roland and follow their directions. Turn-around time should be weeks, not years! Erik |
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Thanks very much, but I'm confused. How come so many folks know the lens is oil spaced and yet I can't find a reference to it anywhere? Jono |
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If those stains are really internal, do not try to clean them yourself. Send those pics to Roland. I've never seen (or owned) an AP lens remotely as screwed up as that one. Oil spacing: you can prove it for yourself. How many reflections can you see in the lens? Two? That's one per air-glass surface. If you had an air-spaced lens you'd see six. The oil is a very thin film between the elements. The whole lens assembly is sealed with some sort of fancy tape (Kapton?) You will court, and probably successfully woo, disaster if you try to deal with this yourself. |
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Quote: Thanks Joe. Things just get curiouser and curiouser. Using a single bulb LED keychain flashlight, I see six reflections of various sizes and colors in the A-P 155. With the 1966 3" Sears f/15, mounted piggyback, I see three. Does this make sense? Jono |
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Your choice is simple: Take apart the lens yourself and risk disaster or send it to AP where there will be no risk. They can also tell you whether the lens is air-spaced, oil-spaced, or cemented. Why agonize over this? |
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Jono I sent my 1998 AP155 back to AP about 2 years ago. The lens spacers had migrated some but I really wanted the tube repainted with the new paint. Roland did not charge me for cleaning the lens and replacing the spacers. The tube was at AP for 4 months or so but that did include repainting the OTA. The OTA came back looking new – I really mean new. It was just like getting a new scope from AP. Send your lens back. If you are thinking of having your OTA repainted or worked on as well, send it all back. It’s worth the effort. Bob |
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If you see six then it looks as though you do indeed have an air-spaced lens. Roland has been known to produce an occasional air-spaced lens. I would normally expect to see 4 with an air-spaced doublet, not 3, but maybe the curvature of one of the surfaces is such to make its reflection elusive. Roland doesn't inhabit CN. He does hang out on the AP forum on Astromart, and also on the AP-UG Yahoo group. You might want to post your query to one of those places. |
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My 1997 AP 155EDFS has an oil spaced objective. My 1999 AP155EDFS also has an oil spaced objective. I've never seen anything about AP making an air spaced 155EDF f/7. AP did make some air spaced 152mm f/9s around 1991 and may have made a few 155mm f/9 EDTs air spaced in 1992 but I think most the 155mm f/9 EDTs were oil spaced. My 155mm f/9 EDT made in 1993 was oil spaced. A friend has it now. It looks great and has absolutely outstanding optica. If it looked bad from when you received it from AP, why didn't you return it? Something doesn't smell right here. From your photos it looks like someone tried to clean both the front and rear surfaces of the objective. That gray stuff in the lower part of the objective looks like some type of film on the back of the objective. Rich |
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Quote: Rich, you're absolutely right, and I feel like such a fool. When I wrote in my original post that the haze "appears" to be internal, I forgot to take into account that refractors refract and light bounces all over the place. It can be very deceiving. The overwhelming consensus was that I should send it to A-P, which would mean lifting the cell off the tube for the first time anyway. So today - wearing latex gloves - I did just that. I don't mind admitting I was a bit nervous. Guess what? Rich was right. The haze is simply on the inside surface (inside the tube). I buttoned it all back up and have already gone online and ordered the Astro-Physics Optical Cleaning System. Considering the alternatives, it's a bargain at $48. A few careful swipes and it should be gone. Please accept my apologies for being so dumb and not checking that first. You have my sincerest appreciation for being so helpful and understanding, and sharing your wisdom. My gratitude to all, and I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. I think there's a saying, "there's no fool like a happy fool", and I'm a pretty happy fool right now. Thanks again. Jono |
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We demand after cleaning photos! ![]() Seriously. I would like to see it after you clean it. |
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Sounds like the promise of a happy ending. ![]() Look forward to seeing the "after cleaning photos". |
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I hope the cleaning works. The photo is hard to interpret. I have an 80mm refractor that once I thought the front coatings were peeling. After calling and talking to the Mfg, and a simple cleaning and it was back to new. On such instruments (I also have an AP 155EDFS, 1997 vintage), the coatings are so so good that it is hard to say just where the problems are--eyes are not good enough detectors. Just from the picture, though, I would guess the 'bubbles' are front surface contamination and not internal. The reason being that if the front surface was clean, the reflection would be uniform in color and the 'bubble' images would be purple as they would have to be going through the front surface coating also. I'm not sure how the back got dirty...humidity? Of course, it is very hard to tell. Follow the cleaning directions carefully, spare no supplies (plan on using a lot wipes and/or cotton balls), and you will probably end up with a pristine optic. If there is any remaining issues, talk on the phone to AP--they are friendly and very willing to help fix you up right. There is a good chance they will have you speak directly to Roland if you have some outstanding issues with the optic. I don't think there is any reason for anyone other than AP to ever take a AP objective apart as long as Roland is alive. |
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You're right - the eyes are not good detectors. A lens like that looks thinner than it really is when just looking through the front, and that's why the haze - whatever it is - appeared to me to be somewhere between the elements instead of on the back. It's even harder to tell from the pictures. There are no bubbles whatsoever, only some dew spots on the front surface. I'll follow Roland's instructions to a T when cleaning it next week, and will definitely post a picture or two. Thanks, everybody! Jono |
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Jono - as long as someone learned something from this thread then nobody's time has been wasted. I'm with the others too...please post after-cleaning pics! |
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Quote:Well that makes me feel like I'm "hangin'" with a 3rd rate bunch here on CN! I don't know if this is accurate or not but if it's true to the point of appearance than I could care less........ I like this bunch anyhoo!! Mike
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Quote: Errr...what? I can't quite parse that sentence. As for the accuracy of my statement, I fully understand why you wouldn't want to take my word on such a vital matter. |
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Quote: ![]() I am sooooooo glad you didn't. Good luck with the cleaning and if that doesn't do the trick please send it back to AP. We're all waiting anxiously for the news...... |
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Quote:Quote:Well that makes me feel like I'm "hangin'" with a 3rd rate bunch here on CN! I don't know if this is accurate or not but if it's true to the point of appearance than I could care less........ I like this bunch anyhoo!! I feel sooo dirty, but the beer @ CN is much better
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Just got a UPS notification that the Astro-Physics cleaning kit has been shipped. I should have it in a few days, and will let you all know how it goes. Thanks for all your help and advice with this. Jono |
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The arrival of the Astro-Physics Optical Cleaning System on Thursday (8/14/08) only increased my anxiety. I kept vacillating between "nervous nellie" and "aw, just go for it" until Friday, when I settled down to a more reasonable attitude somewhere in the middle. I removed the lens cell and brought it in the house. The cleaning kit contains Baader cleaning fluid, Purosol, (both in misting bottles) and a package of lint-free wipes. According to the instructions, however, what you use most is plain old kleenex - and lots of them. The first order of business is to remove surface dust and dirt by blowing it off. I used a bulb and a soft round camel hair brush. I would actually push the brush forward a short distance to gently lift any dirt, then blow air; clean off the brush, and repeat this until I'd done it over the entire objective. Once that's done, they say to spray the Baader on a kleenex and start wiping the lens a small section at a time. Being more cautious than not, I elected to mist a kleenex, drape it over the lens, and gently press it down all over using the brush, then slowly peel it back and away. Using a new tissue each time, I repeated this 10 - 12 times. The lens got cleaner with each repetition. Only a couple tiny dots remained, so I tried the Purosol, but it still didn't remove them, so I ended up not using much of the Purosol at all. Besides, it tended to leave purplish areas. Finally, I breathed on the lens and gave it a light polish with the lint-free wipes, and brushed and blew off any dust. There's always dust! Get rid of one particle of dust and three more show up. It's a battle you can't win - not in the average home, anyway. When it comes to optics, "pretty good" is often best. The less fooling with it try to achieve perfection the better. That was the front. The problem area - where all this started - was the back side of the lens. The whitish haze was clearly visible as being on the inside (tube side) of the innermost lens element. To my great relief, most of it came off with the first damp kleenex application. It took only a few more to completely remove it, whatever it was. Hooray! It took a little over an hour altogether, and I couldn't wait to get the cell back on the scope where it belongs and be done with it. I must say, the results are very satisfying, and we're back in business in time for clear skies tonight when I can try out the new GSO 30mm Superwide that also arrived on Thursday. As promised, here are some pictures starting with the front of the objective before cleaning. I set it on a piece of black cardboard for photographing. Jono |
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This is the back before cleaning. |
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Tapping down a kleenex dampened with the Baader cleaning fluid. |
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...and peeling it away. |
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The front after cleaning both sides. |
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The back after cleaning both sides. |
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Before and after shots in the observatory with flash. |
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Before and after outside. Some difference, huh? |
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Again, I'd like to thank everyone for their concern and helpful suggestions and good advice. Jono |
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That is a superb result! Congratulations + happy renewed stargazing. Erik |
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That must be very satisfying. |
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YAY - a happy ending to what looked to be a nightmare. Congratulations. |
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We're getting a report from Long Island that a telescope owners certain body parts are now returning to their normal location after successfully cleaning their Astro-Physics lens. |
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Very nice! Good job, worthwhile for sure and it should improve the images a bit to, especially scatter. Blueman |
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Well I went from feeling sorry for you to now being completely jealous. Way to go! |
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That looks great good job. |
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They say that when throwing the football, 3 things can happen, 2 of them bad. You just threw a strike into the End-Zone. Congratulations! |
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Looks great Jono. Glad you came here before pulling your oil spaced lens apart! The good news w/ that refractor is that if there was ever an issue with the spaces between the elements, Roland most likely would have fixed it for just the return shipping charge. Do you live on the north or south fork? Do you ever observe out at Custer? |
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You folks are great! Cloudy Nights is the place to come for the best advice and support anywhere. Rinaldo, I'm on the south fork. Send me a PM if you plan a trip out toward Montauk. Haven't been to Custer. Jono |
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Congratulations Jono! Superb job! I was a bit nervous for you at first but it looks like everything worked out nicely!
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Jono - very nicely done! That's fantastic! Congratulations. |
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Thank you. I can't wait to try it out when Son of Sol takes a break and the sky gets darker over the next few weeks. The moon itself would be a good test, but it's too low in the trees. Jono |