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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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Photons
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Reged: 10/24/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Barry's Bay ON.CA.
New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D?
      #2716745 - 10/24/08 09:03 PM

Well,

Im going to buy a new camera tomorrow. I cant seem to make up my mind. Will it be a 40D or a 50D?

Grape or cherry. I cant decide.

The 50D looks promising, but I can find any astrophotos done with this camera.

On the other hand…

The 40D is a known performer.

Can anyone offer advice or direct me to some 50D astro shots?

Cheers


--------------------
Equinox 120 ED
Equinox 80 ED
Meade SN8
HEQ5 Pro
EQ6 Pro / GPS
300D
50D
Orion Star Shoot Autoguider
Maxim Dl
Astrotrac
Rolller Stand- http://round-lake.dyndns.org/page3/
Chasing a 30 year dream...


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Gus_Smedstad
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Photons]
      #2716800 - 10/24/08 09:35 PM

I found only one 50D astrophoto with a google search, and it was a first-timer, where hardware is less important than experience.

If price is not the issue, I think I'd go with the 50D. They seem to be touting about 1 stop more sensitivity, and there's the improved microlenses for higher efficiency. I'm not sure it's technically really "QE" in this case, but if there's anything I've learned, it's that the number of photons counts.

- Gus

--------------------
Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC



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robjohn
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Photons]
      #2717225 - 10/25/08 08:23 AM

Since the 50D was made available generally on October 15, I am not surprised by the lack of images around. I got my Hutech modified 50D on October 17, and I have not had the chance to do anything but some handheld shots of the moon and Jupiter with its Galilean satellites.

I am going to Mt Pinos tonight, and hopefully, I should have some images to post soon. If you are getting your camera today, then that won't be much use to you. I cannot myself compare with the 40D since the last camera I had was the 20Da, but the 50D has some features that are nice for astrophography. Here are a few:

The sensor has 50% more pixels and Canon claims less noise. I will test the noise claim tonight.

Both the 50D and 40D have Live View, which is great for focusing. However, the 50D uses the DirectPrint button as a Live View button on the 50D making Live View focusing easier.

The screen resolution is far better on the 50D. 4x as many pixels should help determine best focus during Live View.

I'll let you know more when I have come back from Mt Pinos.

--------------------
Rob Johnson

Celestron 14" SCT | 8" SCT | 102mm f/5 | Ultima 8x56
Takahashi FSQ-106EDX f/5
ZenithStar 105mm f/7 | 80mm f/6
Vixen ARK 16x80
CGE | CG-5
Canon 50DH
Starfish autoguider



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FarmerDave
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: robjohn]
      #2718093 - 10/25/08 07:37 PM

Quote:

but the 50D has some features that are nice for astrophography. Here are a few:

The sensor has 50% more pixels and Canon claims less noise.





For AP, typically you want larger (fewer) pixels. However, the 50D has less *space* between the pixels, which is a more compelling argument.

Quote:


Both the 50D and 40D have Live View, which is great for focusing. However, the 50D uses the DirectPrint button as a Live View button on the 50D making Live View focusing easier.





Huh? You can turn Live View off/on with a button on the 40D as well.

Quote:


The screen resolution is far better on the 50D. 4x as many pixels should help determine best focus during Live View.





To me, this is the most compelling argument for the 50D - I've saved many photos (both daylight and astro) based on a quick liveview review, only to find out they were OOF. I'm also interested in the contrast detect autofocus while in liveview.

Quote:


I'll let you know more when I have come back from Mt Pinos.




Can't wait to see some photos!

The biggest issue that gives me pause about the 50D are the numerous Err99 issues being reported online - but it's hard to get a grasp on how widespread the issues actually are, and it seems that Canon is trying hard to get them resolved quickly.

David

--------------------
Celestron C6/C9.25/CG-5GT Mount
Orion 80ED/EON 72/Supercharged Atlas EQ-G
Garrett Optical Signature Series 10x50
Canon XTi (soon to be modded)/Canon 40D (unmodded)
Meade DSI/Meade DSI Pro/Philips SPC900N
1944 Ford 2N/1948 Ford 8N

Bahtinov Mask Generator * AstroCataLink * 40DShutterCount


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WarrenS
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: FarmerDave]
      #2718251 - 10/25/08 10:02 PM

Each new model in the Canon lineup has been an improvement over the previous one and that's been true for astrophotography as well as "daytime". Go for the 50D. Of course you haven't seen any astrophotos yet, it's so brand new. A couple of months from now you'll be seeing dozens and dozens of images.

--------------------
Warren

Astro-Tech 127EDT
Celestron Onyx 80ED
Astro-Tech Field Flattener
C8 (circa 1983 Orange Tube)
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Canon 135mm F2.8
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ValeryD
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: robjohn]
      #2718354 - 10/25/08 11:40 PM

Quote:



I'll let you know more when I have come back from Mt Pinos.




May I ask you to create a special topic about testing your 50D? Your test will be very useful for many others, I believe.


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Kaizu
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: ValeryD]
      #2718422 - 10/26/08 12:43 AM

I wait the new 5D mkII. The specification seems interesting, also for astrophotos. The max ISO rate is 25600, little bit more than 300D and ISO 3200.

Kaizu

--------------------
Some thoughts are so wise that they don't make me laugh
http://www.kaiforssen.fi


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Photons
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Posts: 22
Loc: Barry's Bay ON.CA.
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Kaizu]
      #2719279 - 10/26/08 04:56 PM

Thanks to everyone for the info.

I took a leap of faith and bought the 50D. Day time shots
are nothing less than awesome. This is a massive step up from my 300D.

Rob, since its going to be awhile till I get mine under dark
skies I greatly look forward to your tests this weekend.

If you should happen to post your pictures in another thread, please leave us a link to them here.

I feel like a kid on christmas eve.

Thanks again.

Cheers

--------------------
Equinox 120 ED
Equinox 80 ED
Meade SN8
HEQ5 Pro
EQ6 Pro / GPS
300D
50D
Orion Star Shoot Autoguider
Maxim Dl
Astrotrac
Rolller Stand- http://round-lake.dyndns.org/page3/
Chasing a 30 year dream...


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Freddy WILLEMS
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Photons]
      #2719311 - 10/26/08 05:24 PM

Hi Photons,
How do the 10 minutes darks come out ?
Any hold pixels or amp. glow ? I guess not.
Freddy

--------------------
Freddy

Meade 14" LX200 GPS UHTC GPS on permanent pier
Celestron C 14" Peltier cooled for planetary imaging.
Meade 10" LX200 & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
Meade 127 mm f/9 APO & TITAN 50:1 mount Gemini 'go to'
W/O 102 mm f/7 APO doublet
Orion 80 mm f/7 ED

DFK 21AU04.AS
ToUcam 840 II pro
Canon 10D Unmoddified
Canon 40D Hutech moddified


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Todd
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Photons]
      #2719329 - 10/26/08 05:31 PM

I've been using the Canon 50D for about two weeks now and have taken a few astrophotos with it.

Granted, I don't do a lot of deep sky astrophotography (prefer on-tripod shots) but I did take a 42-minute star trail photo to see how much noise would show up.

At ISO 100 for 42 minutes using a 15mm Sigma f/2.8 lens there was very little noise.

The image can be seen here: http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/startrails.jpg

This is a 60-second image at ISO 1600 using the same Sigma f/2.8 15mm lens.
http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/MW_October18_small.jpg

An image taken by Terence Dickinson, using a Hutech-modified 50D can be seen here: http://www.skynews.ca/pages/pow.html


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Todd
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Todd]
      #2719334 - 10/26/08 05:35 PM

This was a 15-second shot taken on a moonlit night.
http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/Oct17_small.jpg

This was a 15-second shot a few nights after full Moon.
http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/bog.jpg

I can definitely see a difference jumping from the 10MP XTi to the 15MP 50D.


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Todd
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Todd]
      #2719338 - 10/26/08 05:39 PM

I did a comparison between the XTi and the 50D by taking a 30-second image of Perseus using the Sigma 15mm f/2.8 lens.

No processing was done with Photoshop (other than saving each image at a compression rate of 9).



XTi: http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/XTiISO80030s.jpg
50D: http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/50DISO80030s.jpg

I found that the 50D presented a warmer photo.


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Photons
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Reged: 10/24/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Barry's Bay ON.CA.
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Todd]
      #2719369 - 10/26/08 05:55 PM

Todd,

Fantastic info - thanks.

The comparison of the 2 cameras kinda do suggest that
canon's claim of the 50D being 1 full stop more sensitive is really correct. Much more detail in the 50D shot.

Very encouraging.

--------------------
Equinox 120 ED
Equinox 80 ED
Meade SN8
HEQ5 Pro
EQ6 Pro / GPS
300D
50D
Orion Star Shoot Autoguider
Maxim Dl
Astrotrac
Rolller Stand- http://round-lake.dyndns.org/page3/
Chasing a 30 year dream...

Edited by Photons (10/26/08 06:01 PM)


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Photons
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Reged: 10/24/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Barry's Bay ON.CA.
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Freddy WILLEMS]
      #2719374 - 10/26/08 06:00 PM

Quote:

Hi Photons,
How do the 10 minutes darks come out ?
Any hold pixels or amp. glow ? I guess not.
Freddy




Hey Freddy

I havent had time to do some long darks myself but take a
look at this link.

http://astrosurf.com/buil/50d/test.htm

This helped me make up my mind.

Cheers

--------------------
Equinox 120 ED
Equinox 80 ED
Meade SN8
HEQ5 Pro
EQ6 Pro / GPS
300D
50D
Orion Star Shoot Autoguider
Maxim Dl
Astrotrac
Rolller Stand- http://round-lake.dyndns.org/page3/
Chasing a 30 year dream...


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Photons
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Reged: 10/24/08
Posts: 22
Loc: Barry's Bay ON.CA.
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Todd]
      #2719379 - 10/26/08 06:05 PM

Quote:

I did a comparison between the XTi and the 50D by taking a 30-second image of Perseus using the Sigma 15mm f/2.8 lens.

No processing was done with Photoshop (other than saving each image at a compression rate of 9).



XTi: http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/XTiISO80030s.jpg
50D: http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/taccdn/50DISO80030s.jpg

I found that the 50D presented a warmer photo.




Todd,

Is it possible to get you to post the full size image?

Cheers

--------------------
Equinox 120 ED
Equinox 80 ED
Meade SN8
HEQ5 Pro
EQ6 Pro / GPS
300D
50D
Orion Star Shoot Autoguider
Maxim Dl
Astrotrac
Rolller Stand- http://round-lake.dyndns.org/page3/
Chasing a 30 year dream...


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Todd
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Photons]
      #2719586 - 10/26/08 08:36 PM

Apparently I can't upload the full size file to Photobucket. I tried but it automatically reduces it in size.

To get around that, I cropped a portion of each of the full size image.

50D, ISO 800, 15 seconds, Sigma 15mm f/2.8 lens.



XTi, ISO 800, 15 seconds, Sigma 15mm f/2.8



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Todd
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Todd]
      #2719591 - 10/26/08 08:38 PM

You can see that the added resolution of the 50D allows more stars to be seen.

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robjohn
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: FarmerDave]
      #3414251 - 10/27/09 02:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

but the 50D has some features that are nice for astrophography. Here are a few:

The sensor has 50% more pixels and Canon claims less noise.





For AP, typically you want larger (fewer) pixels. However, the 50D has less *space* between the pixels, which is a more compelling argument.





In general, the larger the pixel, the better the per-pixel signal-to-noise ratio is. However, I pulled some data from a post by rnclark on birdphotographers.net, and came to the following comparison of the 30D v 40D v 50D:

A better comparison of these cameras is to look at how they compare when producing the same image; for example, a 1.5 MP (1500x1000 pixel) image.  For each of these cameras, we need to bin camera pixels together to produce an image pixel.

If we multiply the full-well capacity of each pixel by the number of pixels and divide this product by 1.5 million, we get the full-well capacity of the binned pixels.  Here is what the table in the post by rnclark says



This means that per equivalent pixel, the full-well capacity has gone up.

Noise is usually given as a standard deviation from the mean.  The variance is the square of the standard deviation, and when adding random variables, we add their variances.  Thus, to compare the read noise in producing a comparable picture, we compare the square of the read noise times the number of pixels, divide by 1.5 million, and then take the square root to put it back into the terms of noise per image pixel.



The per pixel signal-to-noise ratio (as computed from full-well capacity and read noise) for these cameras is fairly close, but adjusting these for producing a 1500x1000 pixel image puts the 40D a bit ahead of the 30D, but puts the 50D clearly ahead of both:



Since the image signal-to-noise ratio is inversely proportional to the square root of the number of image pixels, the relative sizes of the signal-to-noise ratios will stay in the same proportions if we change the size of the comparison image.

So from the information given in that post, it looks as if the 50D is a definite improvement over the previous two xxD releases for producing comparable pictures (but about equivalent for producing full resolution pictures).  Of course, the Digic IV chip in the 50D adds some improvements over the Digic III in the 40D and the Digic II in the 30D.

I no longer have any doubts that the 50D is the better camera.  For producing the same image, the 50D has 25.0% better signal-to-noise ratio than the 40D and 33.0% better signal-to-noise ratio than the 30D.

Quote:

Quote:


Both the 50D and 40D have Live View, which is great for focusing. However, the 50D uses the DirectPrint button as a Live View button on the 50D making Live View focusing easier.





Huh? You can turn Live View off/on with a button on the 40D as well.




I'm sorry, I had been using a 20Da before, and Live View was accessed as a menu item. Quite annoying.

Quote:

Quote:


The screen resolution is far better on the 50D. 4x as many pixels should help determine best focus during Live View.





To me, this is the most compelling argument for the 50D - I've saved many photos (both daylight and astro) based on a quick liveview review, only to find out they were OOF. I'm also interested in the contrast detect autofocus while in liveview.




If you zoom in 10x you get a better than pixel for pixel view of the image, so if it is focused on the back of the camera, it should be focused in the image. That has been my experience.

Quote:

Quote:


I'll let you know more when I have come back from Mt Pinos.




Can't wait to see some photos!




I used the modified camera with my William Optics ZenithStar 105 ED, which is a very fine scope, but it is not capable of handling the extended UV and IR of a modified camera. I got lots of red and blue halos around brighter stars, which came from the red and blue not being focused the same as the green. I upgraded to a Takahashi FSQ-106 ED and now I am able to get much nicer pictures with the camera. I entered an image of the Heart Nebula (IC 1805) in the October DSLR Challenge.


Quote:


The biggest issue that gives me pause about the 50D are the numerous Err99 issues being reported online - but it's hard to get a grasp on how widespread the issues actually are, and it seems that Canon is trying hard to get them resolved quickly.

David




I got one Err99 message early on, and had to turn the camera off and on a couple of times. After that, I have not had any problems.

I have been quite happy with my 50D and look forward to being able to do some more astrophotography with it.

--------------------
Rob Johnson

Celestron 14" SCT | 8" SCT | 102mm f/5 | Ultima 8x56
Takahashi FSQ-106EDX f/5
ZenithStar 105mm f/7 | 80mm f/6
Vixen ARK 16x80
CGE | CG-5
Canon 50DH
Starfish autoguider



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JerryWise
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: robjohn]
      #3414831 - 10/27/09 08:06 PM

Good thread. I'm ready to make a move and almost ordered another Rebel XSi. I bought a QHY-8 and ran into a brick wall on support and the thing broke so I won't be jumping the DSLR ship after all. One thing for sure, Canons just keep on working. 50D looks like the new Canon winner.

--------------------
Jerry

Celestron C-11





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robjohn
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: JerryWise]
      #3414896 - 10/27/09 08:45 PM

Quote:

Good thread. I'm ready to make a move and almost ordered another Rebel XSi. I bought a QHY-8 and ran into a brick wall on support and the thing broke so I won't be jumping the DSLR ship after all. One thing for sure, Canons just keep on working. 50D looks like the new Canon winner.




I just got an Orion StarShoot Solitaire to remove my laptop as a necessity for autoguiding. I have been using the Starfish autoguider for several years, but that requires a computer (I was a beta-tester and had asked the developer to make it stand-alone, but that was not to be). Before that, I did hand-guiding for a year or two, and that was enough.

Right now, for me, a standalone autoguider and DSLR is the way to go.

--------------------
Rob Johnson

Celestron 14" SCT | 8" SCT | 102mm f/5 | Ultima 8x56
Takahashi FSQ-106EDX f/5
ZenithStar 105mm f/7 | 80mm f/6
Vixen ARK 16x80
CGE | CG-5
Canon 50DH
Starfish autoguider



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nofxrx
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: JerryWise]
      #3415045 - 10/27/09 10:10 PM

Quote:

50D looks like the new Canon winner.




I would agree,except for the fact that both the 40 and 50D have major horizontal banding issues when used in climates above >~20-25degC...the XSi however has,no banding,great resolution(pixel size is 5.5um compared to the 4.7of the 15mp APS-C 50D..not much of an improvement when dealing with longer F/L's...),has VERY low noise values even in warmer climates..It has been a proven cam over and over..
Sorry,but IMHO..the XSi remains king of the Canon line..but the T1i is showing great promise as it does not seem to be plagued by the banding issues of the 50D..
The 50D is a waste of money IMHO.UNLESS,you are using it for dual purpose..THEN it is WELL worth every penny..
But for an Astro DSLR,there is no need for "all the bells and whistles" of some of the models..
50D is a brilliant camera no doubt about it..but this is speaking in a general "over-all" fashion..

Just look for the right sensor to fit your optics,then see if the electronics will back up the sensor and actually work for it,and not against it,and you will never go wrong.

This will probably get me banned from this forum...but,it is just my 's...

CS!

--------------------
Brent Oliver
WO-66SD*WO-Megrez102ED-Special Edition
CGE Pier-Mounted
Artemis285*OrionSSII-Mono
AstronomikLRGBHOS*AtikMFW
HyperCams&MODS
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JerryWise
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: nofxrx]
      #3415137 - 10/27/09 10:50 PM

Quote:

...the XSi however has,no banding,great resolution(pixel size is 5.5um compared to the 4.7of the 15mp APS-C 50D..not much of an improvement when dealing with longer F/L's...),has VERY low noise values even in warmer climates..It has been a proven cam over and over..
Sorry,but IMHO..the XSi remains king of the Canon line...
CS!




I already have an XSi. Mine has banding. This is why I was looking at the 50D.

--------------------
Jerry

Celestron C-11





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jmX
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: JerryWise]
      #3415145 - 10/27/09 10:53 PM

I know this is an old thread, but its been revived so I'll contribute.

I've been using a 50d quite successfully (for a newb at least). I havent found much banding that didnt process out pretty easily, and I'm working at 60-80degrees F exclusively.

Also, I seem to get quite a decent amount of Ha response for it being totally unmodified. Not sure if the 50D lets more Ha through, or if I'm just processing it differently than others.

Either way, pics on my website below.

--------------------
Jon
C6N + CG5
Skywatcher Equinox 80 + CGEM
http://jmx.ls1howto.com


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robjohn
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: JerryWise]
      #3415196 - 10/27/09 11:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

...the XSi however has,no banding,great resolution(pixel size is 5.5um compared to the 4.7of the 15mp APS-C 50D..not much of an improvement when dealing with longer F/L's...),has VERY low noise values even in warmer climates..It has been a proven cam over and over..
Sorry,but IMHO..the XSi remains king of the Canon line...
CS!




I already have an XSi. Mine has banding. This is why I was looking at the 50D.



I've never seen banding in my 50D. Perhaps banding is a problem of an individual camera, perhaps a problem with a certain production run. As far as I know, the 500D (T1i) uses the same sensor and Digic IV as in the 50D, so if one had a design flaw, I would expect to see that same flaw in the other. My uncle has a 500D (T1i) and it shows no banding either.

--------------------
Rob Johnson

Celestron 14" SCT | 8" SCT | 102mm f/5 | Ultima 8x56
Takahashi FSQ-106EDX f/5
ZenithStar 105mm f/7 | 80mm f/6
Vixen ARK 16x80
CGE | CG-5
Canon 50DH
Starfish autoguider



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jmX
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Posts: 162
Loc: Orange County, CA
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: robjohn]
      #3415206 - 10/27/09 11:35 PM

Quote:

I've never seen banding in my 50D. Perhaps banding is a problem of an individual camera, perhaps a problem with a certain production run. As far as I know, the 500D (T1i) uses the same sensor and Digic IV as in the 50D, so if one had a design flaw, I would expect to see that same flaw in the other. My uncle has a 500D (T1i) and it shows no banding either.




50D's have banding. You just have to process the photo fairly extremely to get it to show up. It's not something many people would notice.

--------------------
Jon
C6N + CG5
Skywatcher Equinox 80 + CGEM
http://jmx.ls1howto.com


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JSeay86
super member


Reged: 04/26/09
Posts: 131
Loc: Norman, OK
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: jmX]
      #3415378 - 10/28/09 02:12 AM

I think I will be getting the 50D around Christmas time as well. You have some outstanding photos on your site jmX. Well done.

--------------------
Jared

Orion XX12 Dob

Ten Acre Observatory


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Gus_Smedstad]
      #3415405 - 10/28/09 02:55 AM

Quote:


If price is not the issue, I think I'd go with the 50D.





Agreed.

Quote:


They seem to be touting about 1 stop more sensitivity, and there's the improved microlenses for higher efficiency.





Canon's marketing claims about the 50D are mostly just JPEG noise reduction nonsense. The improved microlenses only increased QE in the green channel by 5% (0.1 photoelectrons per 12-bit ADU per square micron in sunlight vs 0.095 on the 40D).

Quote:


For AP, typically you want larger (fewer) pixels. However, the 50D has less *space* between the pixels, which is a more compelling argument.





You only want larger (fewer) pixels if they are actually better. That has never (yet) been the case when it comes to Canon DSLRs. The newer small pixel cameras are always either the same (as in the case of the 40D -> 50D) or dramatically better (50D -> 7D).

Quote:

I wait the new 5D mkII. The specification seems interesting, also for astrophotos. The max ISO rate is 25600, little bit more than 300D and ISO 3200.





The max ISO has little to do with actual performance of the camera. It's a marketing tool (gimmick) that's only very slightly correlated with reality. For example, the max ISO on the 1Ds3 is 3200, compared to over 100,000 on the new cameras. They are better, but nowhere near *that* much better.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: robjohn]
      #3415419 - 10/28/09 03:18 AM

Quote:


In general, the larger the pixel, the better the per-pixel signal-to-noise ratio is.





Agreed. Excellent post, Rob.

Quote:

Of course, the Digic IV chip in the 50D adds some improvements over the Digic III in the 40D and the Digic II in the 30D.




FWIW, the DIGIC improvements only benefit JPEGs, not raw.

Quote:


For producing the same image, the 50D has 25.0% better signal-to-noise ratio than the 40D and 33.0% better signal-to-noise ratio than the 30D.





I think Roger Clark's 8.2% read noise improvement is more characteristic of the SNR improvement you'll see in astrophotography. That's because his "SNR" is what most people call "dynamic range". The 25% number only causes the SNR to be 25% higher in the very brightest tone in the image (i.e. stars just below clipping). As you examine darker and darker parts of the image, the SNR improvement drops lower and lower until you get to the 8.2% in the tones not dominated by photon shot noise (where most of astrophotography takes place)., in read-noise-dominated image tones. Of course, that's not counting the 5% improvement in QE (which will vary by wavelength).

Personally, I would characterize the 8.2% improvement in read noise and 5% improvement in QE as relatively minor.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: nofxrx]
      #3415430 - 10/28/09 03:26 AM

Quote:

both the 40 and 50D have major horizontal banding issues when used in climates above >~20-25degC...





Actually, the variable pattern noise is present at all temperatures and sub lengths.

Quote:


...the XSi, however, has no banding...





Well, it has much less, but there still is some. Canon is funny that way. Their cheapest cameras (500D) have little banding. Then the mid range (50D) and high-mid (5D2) have lots of banding, then their very top range has little again (1Ds3, 1D3). Fortunately that seems to have changed with the 7D: pattern noise at ISO 800+ is almost completely eradicated. (Although there has been a higher-than-average number of units with gain imbalance between the two green channels that can manifest as pattern noise.)

As for how much of a problem variable pattern noise is, it depends on your post processing. Many users find that it disappears with a sufficient number of subs and the right algorithm.

Quote:


This will probably get me banned from this forum...but,it is just my 's...





Get the pitchforks, guys! Let's run him out on a rail. I enjoyed your post, thank you for sharing.

--------------------
--Daniel


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xatamec
member


Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 46
Loc: Catalonia, Spain
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: robjohn]
      #3415438 - 10/28/09 03:41 AM

Here you have 2 shots taken with the a cooled 50D from Central DS:

http://fotografiaastronomica.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6631
http://fotografiaastronomica.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6604

These shots are very promising taking into account that were taken with a Canon 200mm lens closed to f7.1.
However, I don't like so many pixels for astrophotography. I haven't seen yet a camera so sensible for astrofotography like the 350D/Xt, not even the 5D MkII, I'm serious.

Sergi

--------------------
My telescopes: WO Megrez 88FD APO and SW 200/1000
My mount: SW EQ6
My cameras: Cooled Canon 350D, QHY5
...and very little time to play with these toys!


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Jerry Lodriguss
Vendor


Reged: 07/19/08
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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: xatamec]
      #3415444 - 10/28/09 03:51 AM

Quote:

Here you have 2 shots taken with the a cooled 50D from Central DS:

http://fotografiaastronomica.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6631
http://fotografiaastronomica.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6604

These shots are very promising taking into account that were taken with a Canon 200mm lens closed to f7.1.
However, I don't like so many pixels for astrophotography. I haven't seen yet a camera so sensible for astrofotography like the 350D/Xt, not even the 5D MkII, I'm serious.

Sergi




Hi Sergi,

Any other technical details on the shot of M45?

Such as where it was taken from, exposure, ISO, total number of sub-frames?

I read the thread for M45, but didn't see this info, or that it was shot at f/7.1

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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s58y
Postmaster


Reged: 12/12/04
Posts: 5494
Loc: Eastern NY
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3415619 - 10/28/09 08:31 AM

Quote:

Here you have 2 shots taken with the a cooled 50D from Central DS:




You certainly captured a lot of faint signal on the M45 shot, with just 80 minutes total exposure at f/7.1. I suppose the cooling helped a lot?

--------------------
Hutech 30D, SBIG ST-402 autoguider
SV80S, TV102iis
Old camera lenses: 800mm f/5.6, 180mm f/3.4
AP900, Barndoor tracker

http://www.pbase.com/s58y


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xatamec
member


Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 46
Loc: Catalonia, Spain
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3415620 - 10/28/09 08:32 AM

Hi Jerry,

According to the author of the shot, it is the result of stacking 4 20-minute exposures @ ISO 800. And the lens was also closed to f7.1.

Sergi

--------------------
My telescopes: WO Megrez 88FD APO and SW 200/1000
My mount: SW EQ6
My cameras: Cooled Canon 350D, QHY5
...and very little time to play with these toys!


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ratdog11
sage


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Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: xatamec]
      #3416777 - 10/28/09 07:29 PM

Can You please translate all the language from the links please?

--------------------
---------
Greg
---------
FSQ106/STL11K/EM200
TV127is/CGE/QHY8
CPC1100/HyperStar 3/Canon40D
Whole bunch of other stuff


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dgpilot
member


Reged: 09/25/09
Posts: 96
Loc: San Ramon, California
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: ratdog11]
      #3416853 - 10/28/09 08:14 PM

I guess I'll chime in as well. I have both the 350D and the 50D. The 50D is a major leap up, I've been using it for almost a year now.
Here is a recent i took. 8 minutes exposure in heavy light pollution (red zone)
M42 with 50D

Now.. the only advantage my 350D has over the 50D is that it's much lighter and smaller than the 50D body. But I'd rather have an unbalanced scope with a 50D than a balanced scope with a 350D.. IMHO

--------------------
LXD75 8" SN f/4
Canon 50D, 350D (unmodded)
Autoguiding:
Orion ST80 Guidescope
Meade DSI II Pro
San Ramon, California:
My Astro Gallery - Revamped!


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Jerry Lodriguss
Vendor


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 543
Loc: Voorhees, NJ
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: xatamec]
      #3417413 - 10/29/09 12:08 AM

Hi Sergi,

Thanks for the info... he must be at an extremely dark-sky observing site...

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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xatamec
member


Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 46
Loc: Catalonia, Spain
Re: New Camera Time - 50D? or 40D? new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3417621 - 10/29/09 05:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Here you have 2 shots taken with the a cooled 50D from Central DS:




You certainly captured a lot of faint signal on the M45 shot, with just 80 minutes total exposure at f/7.1. I suppose the cooling helped a lot?




It was not me who made this shot, it was one of my colleagues. Yes, I suppose the cooling helped a lot to differenciate the faint signal from the thermal noise.


Quote:

Can You please translate all the language from the links please?




You can use the google translator the source language is spanish.


Quote:

Now.. the only advantage my 350D has over the 50D is that it's much lighter and smaller than the 50D body. But I'd rather have an unbalanced scope with a 50D than a balanced scope with a 350D.. IMHO




The 50D is a great camera with a lot of advantages over the 350D. Live view is a very nice feature for focusing and target centering. The bigger dynamic range (14-bit) is also a major advantage, mainly to keep the stars unsaturated at high ISOs or long exposure times. Also, the electroluminiscence problem of the 350D is a major concern for me. If you were giving me a 50D or a 350D obviosly I would pick the 50D. But, in terms of sensibility per pixel, the 350D is better than the 50D or other new generation DSLRs. And this means that the SNR is better with the 350 with the same exposure times and focal ratios.

Quote:

Thanks for the info... he must be at an extremely dark-sky observing site...




Yes Jerry, he made the shot at the best observing site in the north-east of Spain, a place called Ąger. There are professional observatories there.

Sergi

--------------------
My telescopes: WO Megrez 88FD APO and SW 200/1000
My mount: SW EQ6
My cameras: Cooled Canon 350D, QHY5
...and very little time to play with these toys!


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