hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Hi all,
I went to a dark site last night with a New EOS 5D mark 2 and shot at ISO 6,400 before reading instruction manuals. I tried it on Kenko Skymemo-R. I could not use usual focus confirmation methods, and the stars look bloated at the center and elongated near corners for the lens: Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 180mmF2.8 at F2.8. I should have read instructions and use live view. I was insane and happy at the dark site last night.
Single in-body battery lasted hours during all exposures of 129 times and 297 minutes in total at 6C = 43F, and I did not use prepared external battery and DC/AC converter.
I'm an iris user, and we can not use RAW files of 5D mark 2 yet with it. I used Canon Digital Photo Professional 3.5 for the first time. I converted some RAW files to TIFF with the DPP3.5 and devignetted, expanded, and adjusted color roughly with Photoshop CS2.
This is a single-shot sample, exposure for 4 minutes at ISO 6,400.
full size jpg here, though quality 11/12 for the size limit: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/3071260508_9a377cb619_o.jpg
and this is of exposure for 15 seconds at ISO 6,400.
full size jpg here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/3070424623_d47c16781d_o.jpg
I thought these not so noisy for the sensitivity, though dynamic range is limited compared to ISO 200.
We may be able to go deeper without longer exposure or guiding at this focus range.
Thank you for watching as alwaysl.
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hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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nighthound
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/30/06
Posts: 960
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Wow, extremely low noise level at 6400, you must be pleased with these results hiro. Looks very promising for astro work. It's tough to flatten the field across a full-frame sensor. I couldn't do it with my 5D (ver.1) and Sky 90/TAK flattener. I also started getting a lot of color noise so went back to shooting with my 20D which has better red response anyway. The noise level in your sub exposure is many times better than my 5D even at with mine at ISO 1600.
Steve
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justabob
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1681
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Thanks Hiro, this looks like a very versatile camera. Even a modded version coming in far cheaper than a large format ccd.
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http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II
Bob
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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That's without any noise reduction?
Oh God; I want one...
Koen
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Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Thanks all,
Kentari,
The 5D mark 2 made them without any noise reduction.
It's really oh Buddha!! level.
Edited by hiro (11/30/08 06:01 PM)
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Kaizu
sage
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 344
Loc: Finland
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When did you buy your camera? I visited Japan few weeks ago but there was only "wooden" model in Yamada-Denki shop in Ishinomaki. They told that the product should be availlable about half way of November. Here in Finland it's not yet availlable, maybe at the end of December.
Kaizu
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Some thoughts are so wise that they don't make me laugh
http://www.kaiforssen.fi
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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Hiro, you're my Hero (sorry for the bad joke)
I had a hunch you would be first to purchase this camera and do an astro-test with it. Thank you very much for posting this. I thought that this camera would only be usable for astro at ISO3200- already a 1-stop improvement over the rest of the canon DSLR's but going to 6400 just makes me want this camera more  Now I can take my 45 second subs at ISO1600 f/2.8 and do it in 11 seconds ISO6400 haha
Thanks for posting the samples, very informative. Did you run any noise reduction in Canon DPP?
Also, where did you get the camera? I've heard of very limited availability worldwide-- did you pre-order? Did you have your name on a waiting list since September?
Finally, you will find live-view a delight for focusing. Especially with an EOS lens. You can micro-adjust the focus zooming in at 10x magnification with your laptop, and not touch the mount or lens. Of course this is impossible with your Leica lens, but of great utility for the 85/1.2 and other EF lenses you have. I find live view indispensable for focusing the 300/2.8.
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LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9066
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Andrew, Rowe has one in stock with my name on it at the Greece location. I'm sure they have more.
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"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Quote:
Andrew, Rowe has one in stock with my name on it at the Greece location. I'm sure they have more.
That's funny, I put my name on the friggin list at Rowe!!! No call or nothing. Maybe because I called their Brighton store?
Not that I want to pay sales tax either.. plus I have to sell off old lenses etc. to fund it.
You won't be doing an astro test any time soon though... not with our weather 
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LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9066
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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I put my name in at both. Greece called. ??? I haven't decided if I am buying it yet, but I want to take a dark with it and see how it looks. I was thinking of buying it mail order to avoid the sales tax but they seem to be the only vendor with it right now. I keep checking Ritz etal but nothing yet.
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"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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justabob
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1681
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They are on the shelf here in the Milwaukee area. I think I will go for the Hutech version when they come out.
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http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II
Bob
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9066
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Quote:
They are on the shelf here in the Milwaukee area. I think I will go for the Hutech version when they come out.
Which one? Do they have a web site?
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"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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Hutech's web site for modified Canon DSLRS is here. Price list is here.
Price for the 5D Mk II with a IR-enhanced filter is still TBA. Probably about $3200, based on 5D II Prices and the usual ~$500 markup for the modification.
One positive thing about the 5D II, it's practical to use a front-filter for terrestrial photography. Front-filters prevent the use of EF-S lenses, so they're of limited use on a 40D any other crop camera. You can of course get regular filters that mount on the front of the lens, but that means a whole set of terrestrial IR filters, which is very expensive.
From what I've seen in other threads, a proper filter is the only real solution to daylight photos with a modified camera. The ones I've seen which have merely used custom color balance still end up too red.
- Gus
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Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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Strgazr27
Vendor - Deep Space Mods and Composites
Reged: 10/04/04
Posts: 6984
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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If the custom white balance is shot using a grey card or a Macbeth color chart on a clear day than there should be little to no discernible difference between a filtered image and a non filtered, CWB image. the 2 shots below were both taken with the same camera. The first is no white balance and the second is with a CWB set using grey card under clear skies. Balance looks pretty good to me. They are not the same shot just in case anyone is wondering. The kids held still and put up with me for a change.
Modded 40D - ISO 400 - No Filter (Notice AF works perfectly  )
And this is using a CWB taken with the Grey card.
Your right individual filters can be expensive but a CWB can and does work when taken and applied correctly.
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Bobby
StonyHill Observatory
Skywatcher EQ6 Pro (On it's way)
AT 130 F/6 Prototype
Royce 10" f/4 Astrograph (Under Construction)
Self Modded 40D
70-200 F2.8 L IS
SSAG
YAHOO TMB 130SS Group
Astronomy Technologies Yahoo Group
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9066
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Quote:
(Notice AF works perfectly )
Yes, that is obvious! 
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"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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Strgazr27
Vendor - Deep Space Mods and Composites
Reged: 10/04/04
Posts: 6984
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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It is but if you read it the camera has no filter over the chip. The only "Filter" so to speak is the L1 or sensor clean glass cover. Based on the older Canons AF should not work in this config. but it functions fine here.
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Bobby
StonyHill Observatory
Skywatcher EQ6 Pro (On it's way)
AT 130 F/6 Prototype
Royce 10" f/4 Astrograph (Under Construction)
Self Modded 40D
70-200 F2.8 L IS
SSAG
YAHOO TMB 130SS Group
Astronomy Technologies Yahoo Group
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kennyrichmond
sage
Reged: 11/29/06
Posts: 412
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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This is extremely useful on a 20Da modded with a Hutech 1a filter. Works better than a grey card, especially at night.
www.lallyphotography.com/store/info.htm
Ken R.
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Irish Setters
Max Mount 20"
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Strgazr27
Vendor - Deep Space Mods and Composites
Reged: 10/04/04
Posts: 6984
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Kenny,
You can accomplish the exact some thing with 2 Mr. Coffee, bleached filters rubber banded over the lens. Total cost is about .10 cents. Works very nicely.
As far as not being able to get an accurate WB using a grey card or Macbeth color chart....I guess thousands of Pro's are doing it wrong
I'm just curious but how would the "Lally Cap" improve the color balance over my grey card shot?
CS's
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Bobby
StonyHill Observatory
Skywatcher EQ6 Pro (On it's way)
AT 130 F/6 Prototype
Royce 10" f/4 Astrograph (Under Construction)
Self Modded 40D
70-200 F2.8 L IS
SSAG
YAHOO TMB 130SS Group
Astronomy Technologies Yahoo Group
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kennyrichmond
sage
Reged: 11/29/06
Posts: 412
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Well Gazer,
I can't rubberband coffee can lids over my two of my lenses, but I'll have to try the lid trick with a flash at night. You might have something there. How are you using a grey card at night? I'm still a novice at this.
Ken R.
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Irish Setters
Max Mount 20"
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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It was this thread that convinced me that I didn't want to use a modified DSLR for terresterial photography. The sky in the photos of Mayan pyramids is obviously way off, even with a VLC filter, and you can see the tint in the pyramid itself if you look carefully.
Sometimes you can correct that sort of thing, but often I've found that I can't, when dealing with similar color cast issues. There's not always a good reference gray in the photo, and I really can't see taking a gray card shot before almost every image I take. And I take far, far more photos of terrestrial subjects than I do of DSO's. I have 1000+ exposures from my India trip, and 900+ from my last Scuba vacation.
- Gus
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Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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kennyrichmond
sage
Reged: 11/29/06
Posts: 412
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
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Gus,
Back when I thought my 20Da might be more sensitive and less noisy for night outdoor urban photography, I was losing the kind of fidelity I wanted, especially for the inside bar scenes and the suggestion above did the trick for me. I didn't know that pros were using coffee filters. Neither coffee filters nor the Lally rag should be used on an underwater camera housing.
Ken R.
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Irish Setters
Max Mount 20"
Edited by kennyrichmond (12/03/08 06:24 PM)
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Lee Jay
sage
Reged: 02/27/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Westminster, CO
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I decided to blend your two images together for a look at the middle of Orion. Hope you don't mind. The small size and high compression isn't so great, but at least it gives you a nice look at the area.
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moron392
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 08/20/07
Posts: 813
Loc: Charlotte, NC
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wow. that thing has resolution out the wazoo!!!
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"If you've done something right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
http://www.freewebs.com/moron392/index.htm
60mm meade ngc60 refractor.
Meade 70AZ-TR (short one)
50mm homemade refractor (occasionally with a solar filter)
starblast4.5EQ
6mm,15mm expanse eyepieces
9mm meade Mh eyepiece,17.5mm Meade MA
nikon 7x35's
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Strgazr27
Vendor - Deep Space Mods and Composites
Reged: 10/04/04
Posts: 6984
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Quote:
and I really can't see taking a gray card shot before almost every image I take. And I take far, far more photos of terrestrial subjects than I do of DSO's.
That's the nice thing about using a CF card and a grey card for WB. Say your going to be spenduing all day walking around the pyramids. Take a shot of the grey card and save it tio your CF card. Go into the menu and set that image from the CF card as your custom WB. Unless your lighting drastically changes it applies that WB to every image you shoot.
A filter is definitely the way to go if that is an option. The X-Nite CC1 still shows the best color correction out of the ones I have tried and seen used.A front mount can be used with any non EFS lens. Quite honestly, if your taking your daytime shooting as seriously as it seems you are your most likely not using EFS lenses anyway.
The best situation in your case Gus is to really have 2 cameras. I know, expensive but than all of this becomes a non issue.
CS's
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Bobby
StonyHill Observatory
Skywatcher EQ6 Pro (On it's way)
AT 130 F/6 Prototype
Royce 10" f/4 Astrograph (Under Construction)
Self Modded 40D
70-200 F2.8 L IS
SSAG
YAHOO TMB 130SS Group
Astronomy Technologies Yahoo Group
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Thanks Andrew,
I'd preordered the DSLR on Sep. 17, 2008 in Tokyo and got it on Nov. 29, 2008, the day Canon started selling the DSLR in Japan. Those preordered in October could not get it on the day here. There said to be little supply also in Japan.
I applied no NRs on those two frames. I did some devignetting, stretching, elevation, and color matching roughly with Photoshop.
and on LV: I was insane and happy through the night. I read nothing of instruction manual. I believe I'm not insane and I can judge coolly enough now as usual. I'll try the LV soon.
Strgazr27,
nice result and pretty children.
Thanks Lee Jay,
I prepared sufficient data of the field more than three hours at ISO 6,400 through the night, and I'm hoping some wonderful result.
This is a result of last winter with EF85mmF1.2L.
bigger version 2MB: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2221/2203577594_9bf98cb5cc_o.jpg
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hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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Quote:
Quite honestly, if your taking your daytime shooting as seriously as it seems you are your most likely not using EFS lenses anyway.
Argh. There's no reason to turn up your nose at the better EF-S lenses. The EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS is comparable optically to any L series lens. The main things it doesn't have are weather sealing and internal zoom. And the EF-S 10-22 f/3.5-4.5 is simply a better lens than the full-frame equivalent 17-40 f/4L. Not to mention that if you have a crop body, the EF-S 10-22 is the only lens that is going to give you that kind of field of view.
Quote:
The best situation in your case Gus is to really have 2 cameras. I know, expensive but than all of this becomes a non issue.
That was my point. While back in May I was toying with the idea of modifying my 40D after I purchased it, I finally decided that doing so would compromise my daylight photography too much. If you want an IR-sensitive camera, you really have to commit to dedicating it to astrophotography unless all you take in daylight are the occasional snapshots.
- Gus
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Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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Strgazr27
Vendor - Deep Space Mods and Composites
Reged: 10/04/04
Posts: 6984
Loc: StonyHill Observatory
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Quote:
Argh. There's no reason to turn up your nose at the better EF-S lenses. The EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS is comparable optically to any L series lens. The main things it doesn't have are weather sealing and internal zoom. And the EF-S 10-22 f/3.5-4.5 is simply a better lens than the full-frame equivalent 17-40 f/4L. Not to mention that if you have a crop body, the EF-S 10-22 is the only lens that is going to give you that kind of field of view.
If your staying with a 1.6 crop body, shoot a lot of indoors/lowlight settings or have no need for the weather sealing, internal zoom, better flare control and the better build quality of the 17-40L than you have a valid argument. Optically, the 17-55 f/2.8 I owned was wonderful and offered up IQ that was as good as the 17-40L I currently own BUT.....The 17-55 is rediculously expensive for the build quality. I am waiting for notification of my 5DMkII to ship so being able to use the 17-40L with both my 40D and FF camera is a huge thing. I also shoot a lot of outdoors/sports/kid shots. You come to appreciate the build quality and weather sealing of the "L" line once you actually own and use them. Use a non sealed lens enough outside and than get dust inside the front element (Happens a lot), you'll wish you had the sealed lens.
Quote:
And the EF-S 10-22 f/3.5-4.5 is simply a better lens than the full-frame equivalent 17-40 f/4L.
In what respect? As far as offering up a wider FOV than the 17-40? Yep your right. Image quality being better? Hmmm I'd doubt it. There are A LOT of people, myself included, who would argue that. Build quality and weather sealing? The quality isn't the same and the 10-22 isn't sealed Again, I'm not saying it's a bad lens, I just wouldn't compare them as equally or favorably as you do. A lot of people on the Canon forums love the 10-22 but they will all tell you from a build and optical quality standpoint they are not as close as it seems.
You also have a habit of taking my statements as blank thoughts that cover every scenario and such is not the case. You seem to be an avid photographer like myself. There is a place for a FEW EF-S lenses under a FEW circumstances as you have shown but they do have limitations and weaknesses. For someone who is a "Recreational user" or weekend "Wedding photographer" than they offer up an alternative.
Sorry for the subject change guys!
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Bobby
StonyHill Observatory
Skywatcher EQ6 Pro (On it's way)
AT 130 F/6 Prototype
Royce 10" f/4 Astrograph (Under Construction)
Self Modded 40D
70-200 F2.8 L IS
SSAG
YAHOO TMB 130SS Group
Astronomy Technologies Yahoo Group
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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Quote:
The 17-55 is rediculously expensive for the build quality.
I've heard people say that before, and while it's a pricey lens, I think the optical quality and IS justifies the expense. I'm obviously not so much on build quality as you are, since I've never actually found any practical value to build quality beyond feeling good about the lens.
Quote:
Use a non sealed lens enough outside and than get dust inside the front element (Happens a lot), you'll wish you had the sealed lens.
I've never really had a problem with this, despite traveling with the supposedly dust-prone 17-55 f/2.8 over India for 3 weeks. I did get moisture inside an older lens - don't remember which one - on my trip to Oaxaca. But that's the only time I've really gotten bitten by weather-sealing issues.
Quote:
Image quality being better? Hmmm I'd doubt it.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Not on a 1.6 crop body, I agree, but that's a meaningless comparison, since the field of view is not the same, and hence the 17-40 is simply incapable of doing what the 10-22 can do. The proper comparison there would not be between a 17-40 and a EF-S 10-22, but with a 17-55 f/2.8.
To return to my point, if you compare them doing the same job - a 10-22 on a 1.6 crop body, versus a 17-40 f/4L on a full frame body - the edges of the 17-40 f/4L are much softer. For taking the same images, the 10-22 is the better lens.
Quote:
You also have a habit of taking my statements as blank thoughts that cover every scenario and such is not the case.
In my view, you have a habit of making statements that are completely at odds with my experience for common cases, not just "unusual scenarios."
Quote:
There is a place for a FEW EF-S lenses under a FEW circumstances as you have shown but they do have limitations and weaknesses.
Which I still feel is a sweeping statement. I would say there are far more than "a few" circumstances under which the EF-S lenses I've specified are worthwhile. Particularly if you can't afford $3000 for a full-frame body like the 5D II. How is owning a 1.6 body rather than a full-frame body an "unusual" scenario?
And I must point out that you did make a blanket statement earlier in this thread about not using ANY EF-S lenses, even though there are two EF-S lenses that are definitely worthwhile.
- Gus
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Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Hi all again,
I found a report on dark dots near extreme highlights in 5Dmk2 today:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30222755
and I could find the same dark part by stars in my sample shot. I rotated my image by 180 degree, and the position of the dark parts is identical to the report.
link for my full size image here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/3071260508_9a377cb619_o.jpg
We have no information now if we can avoid the dark dots or not. If not, the phenomenon may be fatal to application of the DSLR to astroimaging.
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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EWhytsell
sage
Reged: 06/15/08
Posts: 204
Loc: North Central Ohio
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One thing on the use of a grey card. If your just going for a rough balance then making a single CWB at noon daylight will work, but only if;
Your vacation pics are also done in noon daylight.
If your pics are gonna be done, in shade, cloud cover, indoors, under any other light then noon daylight then the color will be off.
The thing pros do to correct color is have someone hold a grey card in one of the photos. They use this as a reference frame in post processing and adjust all images in that set to it..
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Classic C8 Super Polaris upgraded to CG-5 mount
Canon 40D unmodded
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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Quote:
Hi all again,
I found a report on dark dots near extreme highlights in 5Dmk2 today:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30222755
and I could find the same dark part by stars in my sample shot. I rotated my image by 180 degree, and the position of the dark parts is identical to the report.
link for my full size image here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3210/3071260508_9a377cb619_o.jpg
We have no information now if we can avoid the dark dots or not. If not, the phenomenon may be fatal to application of the DSLR to astroimaging.
While this is a disturbing report, I simply do not see the dark dots in your image, Hiro. Stacking the astrophoto should eliminate any dark spots anyway, assuming there is some movement between subs... or maybe not, since it's the sensor, and upon registration the dark dots would align just the same as the stars. Hmm. Seems like a camera firmware update could fix this though. I've put in an inquiry with my friends who work at Kodak on their digital sensors. They have microelectronics engineering degrees and make the CCD sensors that go into the Hasselblads and SBIG cameras.
Anyway, I still don't see those dark spots in your image, Hiro.
--------------------
LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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They do appear next to bright stars. At the left side of the star. I had to look a while before I found them, but once you notice them they are obvious.
I don't think it's so bad the camera becomes unusual for (pretty picture) astrophotography. Pretty picture astrophotography is what everyone here is doing - if you want science get a temperature controlled CCD... Now that I think of it, noone though CCD with massive blooming were useless for astrophotography, science or otherwise. This should be pretty easy to fix with a mask on the bright stars and an offset filter.
Koen
PS. I know there are scientifical observations where a DSLR will do fine (meteors, SN-hunting, comet-hunting, ...), but I've seen noone doing such observations on this forum... This artefact would probably compromise photometry and/or astrometry - but actually those should also be done on unsaturated objects where this isn't an issue either...
--------------------
Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
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justabob
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1681
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Yes I can see them. I think anyone being the first guy on the block with a new product many times ends up being the beta tester. The 50d's when they first came out were prone to err99 problems, seems new firmware took care of that. I did this a few times with new cars and have learned my lesson.
--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II
Bob
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LLEEGE
Running out of Oxygen
Reged: 03/03/05
Posts: 9066
Loc: Cloud-chester,NY
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Mine does it. I'm returning it today. Pretty pictures or not, for the $$, it better work better then my 350 and 20D. Neither of which display this phenomena. 
This will be trouble for any photographer shooting images with point source lighting. 
--------------------
"Okay! You draw the straws. I'm-a taking the parachute."
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groz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 1074
Loc: Duncan, BC
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Quote:
We have no information now if we can avoid the dark dots or not. If not, the phenomenon may be fatal to application of the DSLR to astroimaging.
I cant load the flicker links for some reason, so cant look at your shots hiro, but, looking at those in the link to the report, the dark spots are obvious, and consistent enough we can start to make educated guesses as to the source. The spots appear to be scanline oriented, and, the result of high contrast on neighboring pixels. So my initial 'guesses' would run along these lines:-
a) The in camera firmware is doing some sort of adjustment based on differentials between neighboring pixels during the save process. This could easily be fixed in firmware, a method of 'turning that off'. This would be akin to the infamous nikon 'star eater' which is a first pass noise reduction.
b) The ccd itself has readout problems on neigboring cells with very high differentials.
c) The a/d converter is not properly resetting between pixels after a very high readout value.
Its really hard to make a fully educated guess on this based on the shots in that report, the online photos have very high jpeg artifacts, and the dark dots may well be highlighted by the jpeg compression process.
My personal thoughts are, it's more likely option c above, during scanline readout of highly saturated cells, the a/d converter is not fully resetting properly between cells. If that's the case, it's EASY for you to validate, try this.
Take a shot of a square piece of white, in front of a mid tone gray background, and repeat at a few different exposures from very fast to somewhat slower, to get different saturation levels in the white area. Find the fastest exposure where the dark pixel artifact shows up clearly. From that exposure, cut a piece of the white area out of the raw image, then give it a big stretch after blowing it up to 10x actual size. If the problem is a/d converter not resetting properly between saturated pixels, that stretched area should show a very definite vertical banding as adjacent pixels exhibit this problem, but it's masked in the highly exposed area. This will 'jump out' if you bring the black point up to very near the white point, you will reach a point where it's actually showing adjacent pixels in the 'on' and 'off' states.
If this simple test shows vertical banding in the final shot, you may as well get that camera back while you are still in the window of returns, because it's going to take a hardware upgrade to fix it.
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Lee Jay
sage
Reged: 02/27/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Westminster, CO
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It looks like multiplexer/amp overshoot to me.
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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Wow, I'm really surprised that Canon let something like this artifacting problem go by. I like the company a lot, and I really want to see how they respond.
- Gus
--------------------
Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Andrew,
The dark spots are visible and noticeable near M42 on the full size photo.
I made second version with DPP3.5. I set saturation level the highest here. The dark spots remain visible, though they are not so noticeable.
full size jpg with quality 12/12: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3139/3093220973_5606727114_o.jpg
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Thanks Hiro for providing an updated image. I now see the black spots, but curiously, they appear only on the right side of the image (I didn't look over there originally) I wonder if this is something that can be fixed with firmware.
Hiro: what about SRAW? does this show up in SRAW1? A 10Mp image is the same size as a 400D / 40D image. I know, we pay for all those megapixels...
Luke: hold onto that camera for a little while longer
I have put the question out to my contacts at Kodak who work in the CMOS engineering division. Some really smart microelectronics engineers will have an answer for us shortly
--------------------
LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
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cvedeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/05
Posts: 2161
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
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Hopefully they will get that fixed. On paper it looked like such a great astro-camera.
--------------------
Chris Vedeler
Astro-Physics 160EDF
Astro-Physics 900GTO
Q453HR / QHY8 CCD camera
Canon 450XSi
----------------------------
www.aznightsky.com
Scottsdale, AZ
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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I mentioned this on another board, and someone said they'd fixed a similar problem in an earlier body with firmware. But no specifics. I couldn't find a mention of this problem on any earlier body when I searched.
- Gus
--------------------
Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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justabob
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1681
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I really want this camera in a modded version. The full frame with the right glass should be a killer combo. Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon.
--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II
Bob
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1146
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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What about the 5D mark I? Wouldn't that be good enough, if you're primarily concerned about the large chip field of view? Though I see that Hutech seems to have taken that off their pre-modded price list.
- Gus
--------------------
Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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justabob
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1681
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Yes I want the Hutech version as I would not be comfortable modding such an expensive camera. Aslo I would get the daylight filter so I could use the hd video option.
--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II
Bob
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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Quote:
What about the 5D mark I? Wouldn't that be good enough, if you're primarily concerned about the large chip field of view? Though I see that Hutech seems to have taken that off their pre-modded price list.
- Gus
- 5D2 has live view (makes focusing much easier)
- 14 bit raws
- More MP (a good or a bad thing depending on your viewpoint)
- Can do long exposures using Canon's software through USB cable (no need for DSLR focus or ImagesPlus and an extra cable)
- Better high ISO sensitivity- looking at Hiro's image, one could theoretically image at ISO6400.. although a more thorough noise analysis would need to be done.
The original 5D is no slouch and has low noise as well, but these additional features are nice.
--------------------
LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-10120964-39.html
I hope some announcement by Canon on 5Dmk2 firmware update.
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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They are struggling for some settlement now, though they do not know if the end is elimination or reduction.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=PgComSmModDisplayAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662&keycode=2112&id=55060
"We are currently investigating and analysing the causes, and examining measures to reduce or eliminate these phenomena by providing correction firmware. An announcement will be made on the Canon Web site when such measures have been determined."
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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justabob
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 1681
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Thanks Hiro for the heads up. I am all set to order the Hutech version of this body, please keep us posted.
--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all
Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II
Bob
|
hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Noel Carboni uploaded nice add-on ware for Photoshop.
http://actions.home.att.net/5D_MarkII_Black_Dots.html
I tried it on my recent test frame with EOS 5Dmk2 and MicroNikkor 60mmF2.8GED.
full size: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3084/3127348903_2d4d0f6c69_o.jpg
I felt his add-on ware nice, and I decided to try 5Dmk2 at the dark site during the next new moon period. Many thanks to Noel Carboni.
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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Daniel Browning
super member
Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
I did not use prepared external battery and DC/AC converter.
Hiro, are you referring to the standard Canon DC/AC converter?
That's what I'm using right now with my 5d2, but I'm looking for an all-DC solution for connecting to deep cycle marine batteries. Anyone know of solutions?
--------------------
--Daniel
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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Hutech sells a 12V adapter for $19. It fits the battery compartment like the Canon AC adapter does. I'm planning to order one myself...
Koen
--------------------
Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Daniel,
I prepared the standard Canon DC/AC converter for 5Dmk2, a little different from that for 5D.
Kentari,
I saw Hutech page just now, but I could not find DC adapter for 5Dmk2 yet.
We may be able to prepare some DC source with DC coupler DR-E6.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=17662#SNAModelSuppliesAct
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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Hmm, I wrongly assumed that the 5DII also used BP-511A like the 5D... Why did they have to change?
Koen
--------------------
Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
|
Daniel Browning
super member
Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Portland, OR
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|
Quote:
I saw Hutech page just now, but I could not find DC adapter for 5Dmk2 yet.
I just got an e-mail back from Ted Ishikawa at Hutech:
Quote:
Yes, it is available at $129.00. Part # EOS211. Lead time is around a couple of days.
--------------------
--Daniel
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Daniel Browning
super member
Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Portland, OR
|
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Quote:
Why did they have to change?
Switching from NiMH to Li-ion gives better capacity, longevity, and weight.
--------------------
--Daniel
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Lee Jay
sage
Reged: 02/27/08
Posts: 463
Loc: Westminster, CO
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BP511s (in the original 5D) are Lithium.
Edited by Lee Jay (12/23/08 03:19 PM)
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Daniel Browning
super member
Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 125
Loc: Portland, OR
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|
You're right.
--------------------
--Daniel
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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I see the advantage. I guess it's just not possible to create Li-ion cells with a compatible form factor (but ofc a safety lip so you can't put them in the wrong charger)...
Koen
--------------------
Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
|
hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
|
|
Daniel,
Thank you for the information.
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
|
Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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hiro:
Thanks for the link to Noel's tool. When I purchase a 5D2 again I will definitely use that if Canon does not fix it themselves. The camera can image at ISO6400 no problem.
I am disappointed about the move from BP-511 batteries, I like getting them really cheap ($5 USD for two batteries, shipped), and I like having spares that I can share between my 5D and 40D. I won't be able to do that if/when I get the 5D2 again. Oh, and it means I have to buy another AC adapter 
--------------------
LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
|
Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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|
Quote:
Quote:
Why did they have to change?
Switching from NiMH to Li-ion gives better capacity, longevity, and weight.
I just noticed that the old BP-511A is a Li-ion battery (and so are my €7 white product batteries)... So far for that argument. I think it's just down to milking the cash cow by Canon.
Koen
--------------------
Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Andrew and Kentari,
New battery lasted more than 5 hours during all exposures of 129 times and 297 minutes in total at 6C = 43F. I felt the battery better than older one. It is well worth money.
Be careful that I am not a Canon person but one of fair amateur astrophotographers.
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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Andrew Welsh
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 03/28/06
Posts: 2485
Loc: Rochester, NY
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Oh I did want to add to this thread that I did test out SRAW1 with a 5D Mark II and it too had the black spots just the same as shooting RAW.
--------------------
LX200 8" classic, f/10, Meade eq. wedge, .63x FF/FR
Canon 40D and 5D, unmodified
Canon EF 300/2.8L IS, 400/5.6L, 135/2L, 50/1.8, 85/1.8, 35/2, 24-70/2.8L, and Peleng 8mm fisheye
Orion Apex 102mm (4") Mak-Cass
Pimped out with accessories and bling
My DSLR Astrophotography Webpage and photo bucket with full equipment list
|
Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2355
Loc: Arctic
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That's really good despite the high ISO. Even 15 seconds picks up a lot of details!  
--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT
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hiro
sage
Reged: 07/17/07
Posts: 479
Loc: Tokyo
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Hi all again,
I processed the Orion widefield with EOS 5Dmk2 today.
small one here: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y298/nogarohiro/mk2orion-small.jpg
dirty full size 9.4MB: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/3166365289_73926d1937_o.jpg
Leica Apo-Elmarit-R 180mmF2.8 at F2.8 and EOS 5Dmk2, stock at ISO 6400 on Kenko Skymemo-R
Exposure for 191 minutes in total: 29 times x 4 minutes, 10 x 3m, 20 x 2m, 4 x 1m, 4 x 15 seconds, 4 x 4s, and 4 x 1s
I took this without live view as mentioned above. Though the focus is obviously very bad, I believe that the result is as hoped before for an unmodified DSLR.
Thanks for iris version 5.57 by Christian Buil and astronomy tools with 5Dmk2 black dot actions by Noel Carboni, I believe now that 5Dmk2 is a nice tool for astrophotography especially after IR cut-off filter modification. We can go deep with multiple short exposures on a compact equatorial mount without guiding.
--------------------
hiro
Canon EOS 5D-AP by IDAS / EOS 5Dmk2 sp2 by Seo san
Takahashi FSQ-106ED with reducer, extender, and "hiro design" off axis guider
Lenses by Canon, Nikon, Leica, and Zeiss (Cosina)
Takahashi EM-200 temma 2 jr / Kenko Skymemo-R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiroc/
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dave132mm
super member
Reged: 12/28/06
Posts: 126
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The black dots are gone now. New firmware. 1.0.7
Dave 
Edited by dave132mm (01/08/09 06:41 AM)
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