Make-it Better
super member
Reged: 06/30/07
Posts: 144
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I have been imaging with a stock 400D for a while and had always considered getting it modded and buying a new camera for daytime use. But with the price of 6MP cooled ccd cameras less than $1500 these days I'm better off just buying one of these and leaving the 400D intact. Are we seeing the beginning of the end of modded DSLR's??
cheers,
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Roy P.
CGE C11
Meade 152ED APO
ED 80
400D
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WarrenS
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 895
Loc: Orange County New York
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Don't think so.
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Warren
Astro-Tech 127EDT
Celestron Onyx 80ED
Astro-Tech Field Flattener
C8 (circa 1983 Orange Tube)
Atlas EQ-G, Orion SSAG
Canon 135mm F2.8
Canon 40D, Astronomik CLS clip filter
Leica, Minolta binos
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alchemist
super member
Reged: 08/19/07
Posts: 117
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Nop
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ccs_hello
Post Laureate
Reged: 07/03/04
Posts: 3300
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DIY mod is inexpensive.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
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cvedeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/05
Posts: 2162
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
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When 6MP - 8MP cooled CCD cameras get down to the $300 - $500 range it will really stop making sens to mod a DSLR. A used Canon 350 can be had for around $300 and modding it can be reasonably cheap too.
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Chris Vedeler
Astro-Physics 160EDF
Astro-Physics 900GTO
Q453HR / QHY8 CCD camera
Canon 450XSi
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www.aznightsky.com
Scottsdale, AZ
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David Rosenthal
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 06/23/06
Posts: 1645
Loc: NJ
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Quote:
DIY mod is inexpensive.
Clear Skies!
ccs_hello
So true!!!! I modded my 400D for, let me see.... $0.00 !!
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David Rosenthal | Midland Park, NJ
My Image Gallery
http://www.EastCoastAstro.com
Atlas EQ-G EQMOD USBDIR [Self-Hypertuned]
8" Meade SCT | Borg 76ED | Takahashi FS-60C
Self Modded 400D | SX MX716 | DSI Pro | SPC900NC
Series 5000 26mm, Hyperion 17mm, TV 11mm Plossl
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Yedgy
sage
Reged: 07/22/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Given that modded DSLRs can be had so cheaply, are the days of CCDs almost over? 
Tony
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The Universe is an awesome place. I'm glad I live here.- Takahashi FS-60CB
- HyperTuned Atlas EQ-G
- Mountain Instruments MI-8P pier
- Spectrum-Enhanced Canon EOS 450D
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Rankinstudio
sage
Reged: 04/05/08
Posts: 417
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT, Lake Powel...
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Yea, 6mp CCD is great and all for 1200$, but I got my rebel XSi for under 700$ (w/o lens) and did the mod myself free. Thats 12.2 megapixel of image! Little more time invested in the imaging process, and yous till get stunning results.
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David Rankin
http://www.rankinstudio.com
Astro Gallery
Orion 254mm F4.7 (imaging scope)
Baader MPCC
Quickcam pro 9000 (guider, imager)
Canon Rebel XSi (self modified)
Atlas EQ-G (EQ MOD)
Canon 50mm F1.8 II Lens
Canon 28-200 F3.2 Lens
DSLR peltier cooler
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Nils_Lars
Post Laureate
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 3440
Loc: Santa Cruz Mountains , CA
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Well besides the fact that im not going to spend $1500 on a camera that I cant use in the daytime , I get alot of other uses out of my DSLR and that made the purchase a lot easier to sell to the CFO.
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Erik
Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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Craig Stark did a head-to-head test between a modified 350D and a Q8-HR in the December 2007 issue of Atro Insight, and the CCD came out significantly ahead. The signal / noise on a cooled CCD is just much better than what you can achieve with a DSLR.
Maybe you if you built one of those custom coolers around the DSLR you might get similar results. The advantage for the QHY8 / Q8-HR / Orion Starshoot Pro cameras is primarily the cooling, not the sensor.
But some of us aren't handy enough to build stuff like that, or do our own mods. So until you see someone offering reasonably-priced coolers for sale for the inept, the low-priced CCDs will be attractive.
- Gus
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Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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cvedeler
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 12/20/05
Posts: 2162
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
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Good point Gus.
DSLR requires a fair amount more work to get the same kinds of results as cooled CCD, but I've gotten great images using my modified DSLR. Temperature is the biggest enemy and living in Phoenix makes about 6 months of the year off limits for imaging.
That is why I have invested so much time and energy working on my cooling box. Using dry ice greatly simplifies the construction and according to my preliminary tests works great. One could build a cooling box like mine for less than $50 in materials and an afternoon of time. Combined with a modest modified DSLR and you have an imaging solution 1/3rd the cost of a dedicated CCD that is usable for daylight shots and on a par with the CCD for image quality.
Click here to see what I did.
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Chris Vedeler
Astro-Physics 160EDF
Astro-Physics 900GTO
Q453HR / QHY8 CCD camera
Canon 450XSi
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www.aznightsky.com
Scottsdale, AZ
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astrokido
space wanderer
Reged: 06/09/08
Posts: 663
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
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From what I've been seeing in the last few years it looks to me like DSLRs are actually getting much better for AP than ever. I always check new camera sample images for noise in shadows among other things and in general, every year they have less noise. If manufacturers can keep reducing thermal sinsitivity in sensor chips like they have been it'll only get better for APers. I can't wait for the day DSLRs sample only light, instead of electrons wizing across the photodiode junctions due to their thermal energy.
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- Gill C. - Celestron Cometron CO-100, 10x25, 20x80, Binochair, Nikon D40
The Night Sky Atlas: www.nightskyatlas.com
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Yedgy
sage
Reged: 07/22/08
Posts: 457
Loc: Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Please pardon the temporary thread hijack:
Quote:
Temperature is the biggest enemy and living in Phoenix makes about 6 months of the year off limits for imaging.
Chris, I don't know if you're an EVAC member, but have you gone imaging at Griffin Ranch or anywhere up north in the summer? I'd like to know if the temps make it worth the effort to escape to the high country next summer to keep my darks from being lighter than my lights.
Tony
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The Universe is an awesome place. I'm glad I live here.- Takahashi FS-60CB
- HyperTuned Atlas EQ-G
- Mountain Instruments MI-8P pier
- Spectrum-Enhanced Canon EOS 450D
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Kolenka
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 1009
Loc: Seattle Area, WA, USA
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Quote:
From what I've been seeing in the last few years it looks to me like DSLRs are actually getting much better for AP than ever. I always check new camera sample images for noise in shadows among other things and in general, every year they have less noise. If manufacturers can keep reducing thermal sinsitivity in sensor chips like they have been it'll only get better for APers. I can't wait for the day DSLRs sample only light, instead of electrons wizing across the photodiode junctions due to their thermal energy.
If only that happens in our lifetime. Current electronics technology revolves around the core concept of electron flow. Until we change that, every sensor will be doing some trick to sample light by converting it into electron flow. That conversion alone means we will always have some amount of noise.
It doesn't help that all current integrated circuit design uses semiconductors in consumer products. While they are the easiest way to produce chips, they have rather surprising thermal properties that are one of the main sources of thermal noise in a CCD or CMOS chip. As temperatures rise, their ability to pass current increases (producing more heat), which could easily have effects on what you read from the pixel.
Still, we have some headroom left in improving the signal to noise ratio.
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Orion XX12 / Orion 80ED OTA / AT66ED
Nagler 7T6, 9T6, 13T6, 17T4, 26T5
Canon XS, TIS DMK 31AF03, AstroTrac TT320X
Northwest Astro Photoblog
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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Modded DSLR will stay a budget solution for a long time to come. Cooled CMOS imagers will never be that cheap: lower production numbers will keep them more expensive than the mass produced entry level DSLRs. My self modified 20D cost me less that 600 Euro and you can have a modded 350D for less than 300 Euro if you do the mod yourself. Add in that you need a somewhat more decent laptop to use such a camera that adds in the cost as well. The relic laptop that does my autoguiding cost me 50 Euro... But I'm sure it won't like 6MP images coming through it's USB 1.1 port 
That said, I am also considering one of those cooled CMOS imagers as my next camera... Maybe I'll mod a 40D to fill the gap, though. $1500 on a dedicated astro camera is a bit too much for my budget at the moment.
Koen
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Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
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nytecam
Postmaster
Reged: 08/20/05
Posts: 5753
Loc: London UK
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Quote:
Given that modded DSLRs can be had so cheaply, are the days of CCDs almost over? Tony
Nop - don't see the pro-astronomers going down to the cameramart  all down to QE and DSLR are designed like most human activity for use in DAYLIGHT where there are too many photons 
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Nytecam 51N 0.1W
Meade 30cm LX200+ETX-70+e-finder+C8+Ha+CaK PSTs SBIG SGS+homebuilt spectrographs
Starlight SXVF_M9+Lodestar CCDs/Canon 300D DSLR/Fuji E550
My observatory build-ETX-70 imaging-my videos
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Gus_Smedstad
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 07/02/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Boston 42° 16' N 71° 08' W
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Quote:
My self modified 20D cost me less that 600 Euro and you can have a modded 350D for less than 300 Euro if you do the mod yourself.
I still say it's not appropriate to assume self-modification. Modification is not for the faint of heart, and can destroy your camera if you screw up. Not to mention the fact that you really have to do it under clean-room conditions if you don't want to risk dust trapped under the IR filter, and setting that up isn't trivial either.
- Gus
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Gus Smedstad image gallery
Orion Atlas 8 EQ-G
Celestron Onyx 80EDF (guiding / widefields).
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
QHY8
Philips SPC900NC
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greekoh
sage
Reged: 03/12/06
Posts: 300
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I've had the best result with a Canon 20d mod however I'm curious if the following does make a difference
Most cost effective DSLR's seem to be 12 or 14 bit color as apposed to the 16bit CCD's.
Individual Pixels size on the CCD's appear to be bigger and my understanding is this in turn will show more detail.
Bigger buckets
I realize the higher end DSLR's such as the Canon 5d's and Marks are in a different category.
Anyone having the pleasure of owning both for a honest comparison?
Particularly a Canon 350,20d,40d and maybe a Meade DSI III C or QHY8
Troy
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Kentari
scholastic sledgehammer
Reged: 11/19/06
Posts: 794
Loc: Belgium
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Quote:
I still say it's not appropriate to assume self-modification. Modification is not for the faint of heart, and can destroy your camera if you screw up. Not to mention the fact that you really have to do it under clean-room conditions if you don't want to risk dust trapped under the IR filter, and setting that up isn't trivial either.
- Gus
Self-modification is not even required. Most of us are associated with some sort of local astronomy club, which often burst with people with great technical skills. I know several persons who could do it for me and 1 that would even be able to get it done in clean room conditions at a price well below of what Hutech or Baader charges. Since I'm an electronics engineer, I prefered to do it myself (under less than clean room condition - my mother ran into my room with a pile of freshly washed and ironed clothes while I had the sensor in my hands).
Sure opening up a camera is a big step, but it isn't that much harder than cleaning optics or tuning a mount... I find myself way less comfortable handling the mirror of my 14" Dobsonian after cleaning than with the sensor of a camera, but yeah, I clean all my optics myself. I'm personally not too fond of mechanics, but I wouldn't hesitate to open my GM-8 if it's needed.
Koen
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Darkstar 355 f/5 Dobsonian
Orion UK 8" f/4.5 Newtonian and WO ZS 80 FD on Losmandy GM8
Canon 20D DIY mod with Baader filter
A bunch of lenses: 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5, 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.4, 70-200mm f/2.8, 300mm f/2.8
www.koenvangorp.be
Edited by Kentari (12/12/08 09:41 AM)
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DaemonGPF
Post Laureate
Reged: 03/22/08
Posts: 3572
Loc: New Mexico
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Quote:
Individual Pixels size on the CCD's appear to be bigger and my understanding is this in turn will show more detail.
Bigger buckets
I thought the bigger the pixel, the higher the sensitivity, but lower sampling, and the resolution is more dependent on the actual chip size?
An example:
ATIK314E vs ATIK314L
6.45um pixels in one, and 4.65um pixels in the other. One is a 1/2 chip and the other is a 2/3. Both produce 1392x1040 resolution. However, the one with smaller pixels produces much better sampling but suffers lower sensitivity(assuming I did my math right... lol) The FOV is better on the larger chip as well.
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-Josh
http://cleardarksky.com/c/AlbuqNMkey.html
My AP Gallery
Edited by DaemonGPF (12/12/08 10:02 AM)
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