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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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Roy Salisbury
sage


Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
ISO Settings
      #3337943 - 09/16/09 07:03 PM

I'm pretty new to DSLR's and imaging, and have a dumb question.

Why would you use a higher ISO over a lower one? For example, if I am correct, a 4 min sub at ISO 800 would be the same as a 2 min sub at ISO 1600. So what are the reasons I would use one ISO over the other? Is it just time? Is it noise (temp)? ISO 800 seems "sharper" but more noise is present.

And if ISO 1600 is ok for a double of 800 .. why not use 3200?

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Jerry Lodriguss
Vendor


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 891
Loc: Voorhees, NJ
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3338059 - 09/16/09 08:01 PM

Hi Roy,

In Canon cameras at least, using a higher ISO actually has less read noise than a lower ISO. That's number one.

Number two is that if you are shooting really faint stuff, you better map the faint detail to the available bit depth.

Number three is that using a higher ISO, like 1600, lets you shoot shorter sub frames, each of which will have less thermal signal (and it's associated thermal noise). Then you stack sub frames to equal a longer exposure.

Unfortunately, you are not correct in thinking that a 4 minute exposure at ISO 800 equals a 2 minute exposure at ISO 1600.

The 4 minute exposure collects twice as many photons. The most important thing is TOTAL exposure.

Increasing the ISO does not magically gather more photons, it is simply changing the gain (a multiplier factor) in the camera.

You are not really getting more "noise" in the longer exposure at ISO 800. You are getting more thermal signal because the exposure was longer. This can be subtracted out with dark frames.

So, for faint deepsky objects, here is what you want to do... use Raw file format.

On a 12 bit camera, use ISO 1600
On a 14 bit camrea, use ISO 400 or 800.

Expose long enough to get the histogram well separated from the left wall of the histogram box. This will be your base exposure. See:

http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/QUICK2.HTM

Then, just keep shooting these sub frame exposures. Shoot as many as you can. The more the better.

Shoot dark frames at the same temp and ISO and exposure on a cloudy night. Always use clear dark sky time for gathering photons from the deepsky object.

Calibrate your light frames with the master dark frame.

Stack all of the calibrated light frames.

Apply a non-linear stretch to the master light frame stack.

Correct and enhance the image.

If you just want to dabble around and shoot only one or two frames, then you can use JPEG in the camera and use in-camera long-exposure noise reduction, and use ISO 1600.

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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Roy Salisbury
sage


Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3338101 - 09/16/09 08:32 PM

Jerry.. Again you have the best answers... I just need to remember to actually BRING your CD with me when I go out in the field (plenty of time to read when taking pictures).

What I need is a dummy's guide to imaging .. what settings for what objects, what objects for unmodded cameras, ect..

Everything that I take in in RAW format, and no longer even do the "dual" format images .. However.. since I take all my images remotly (computer software) how do I tell what the histrogram is showing. Is that not only displayed on the camera if you view the image on the SD card? Maybe I am overlooking a very simple feature of the canon EOS software.

And since my 500D produces 14bit RAM images, I will start using ISO 800 and not 1600. I actually started out using 800, but noticed that in most of your posts you mention that you mainly use 1600, so I figured that was the correct setting (you're the expert ). Good thing too .. most of my dark library is in ISO 800.

I guess in my mind if the image looks good in a single sub, then it will look even better stacked. But if it looks faint in the single sub, then I need to increase the exposure time. Problem is that increasing the time starts putting a strain on the guiding and the star trails start showing up. I need to learn that just because it does not look "bright and colorful" in a single sub does not mean that 30 or 40 subs will look just as bad.

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Mike Clemens
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 4689
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska 61N
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3338125 - 09/16/09 08:45 PM

> On a 12 bit camera, use ISO 1600
> On a 14 bit camrea, use ISO 400 or 800.

Why lower ISO on higher bit depth cameras?

--------------------

historius apochromaticus


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Jerry Lodriguss
Vendor


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 891
Loc: Voorhees, NJ
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #3338442 - 09/16/09 11:35 PM

Quote:

>Why lower ISO on higher bit depth cameras?




You really want to use the ISO that gets you closest to Unity gain, where one photoelectron is mapped to one digital number.

This depends on the full well of the camera and the bit depth, and the noise present.

See Roger Clark's page here:

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary/#unity_gain

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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Mike Clemens
Post Laureate


Reged: 11/26/05
Posts: 4689
Loc: Wasilla, Alaska 61N
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3338549 - 09/17/09 01:06 AM

OK looks like my EOS 40D is about ISO1400 for unity gain. I'd guess 1600 would be best? Thanks for that link looks like good reading.

--------------------

historius apochromaticus


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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2704
Loc: Arctic
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3339508 - 09/17/09 01:38 PM

Interesting that at 12 bits you use ISO 1600. The Rebel XT is 12 bits.

--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT


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sunrutas
super member
*****

Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 202
Loc: Visby, Sweden
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Ptarmigan]
      #3343360 - 09/19/09 03:04 PM Attachment (60 downloads)

Hi!

I read this interesting thread as my first attempt on M31 produced a lot of noise, at ISO 800. I got the advice to try again with ISO 400 settings. The noise was worse!

After reading this thread, I found out that my camera is a 12 bit and should therefore use the ISO 1600 settings.
The improvements were great!

I shot 20 x 30 sec. subs plus 20 darks at ISO 1600 and the noise was way below my previous tests at ISO 400! (unguided...)

A lot more detail than before is also visible!

Thanks for sharing with us of your knowledge and experience, Jerry! I was absolutely sure that the lower the ISO, the lower the noise!

Kind regards/Roger!

--------------------
My personal links:

"Astrogotland", my homepage

My CN photo gallery



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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2704
Loc: Arctic
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: sunrutas]
      #3343518 - 09/19/09 04:57 PM

Nice photo of Andromeda. It is interesting that you got more noise at ISO 400 than ISO 1600. When I try using ISO 1600, I get a lot of light pollution.

--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT


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saadabbasi
sage


Reged: 08/23/09
Posts: 235
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Ptarmigan]
      #3343526 - 09/19/09 05:12 PM

You can subtract out the skyglow using Levels in Photoshop.

http://astropix.com/HTML/J_DIGIT/DIGTECHS.HTM

--------------------
Orion ST80 w/ SSAG
Losmandy G11 w/ Gemini
Nikon D40
SBIG ST8300M on order.


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Ptarmigan
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 09/23/04
Posts: 2704
Loc: Arctic
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3343889 - 09/19/09 09:25 PM

Thanks!

--------------------
Ptarmigans=Cute and Cuddly
Meade Starfinder 8
Nikon 10x50
Rebel XT


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3346683 - 09/21/09 12:45 PM

Hi Jerry,

Quote:


In Canon cameras at least, using a higher ISO actually has less read noise than a lower ISO. That's number one.





Agreed.

Quote:


Number two is that if you are shooting really faint stuff, you better map the faint detail to the available bit depth.





We want the analog gain to be high enough to avoid any possibility of quantization error, but there is no ISO setting on any Canon camera that has any such possibility. Not even at ISO 100, where it is most likely. If future cameras have this problem at ISO 100, it probably wont affect us at ISO 200 or 400 due to read noise.

Quote:


On a 12 bit camera, use ISO 1600
On a 14 bit camrea, use ISO 400 or 800.





That is bad advice. Bit depth has no effect, except in a theoretical world where read noise does not

Quote:

You really want to use the ISO that gets you closest to Unity gain, where one photoelectron is mapped to one digital number.

This depends on the full well of the camera and the bit depth, and the noise present.

See Roger Clark's page [...]




Roger Clark is very smart and has contributed mountains of good information, but Unity gain is a *very* poor technique for ISO selection. In a theoretical world where there is no read noise, it might be a good idea. But in the real world of astrophotography, read noise is much, much higher than photon shot noise, so it cannot be ignored. Unity gain should be put on a shelf somewhere that we can dust off in a few years (or decades) after image sensors get the read noise down to sub-electron levels.

Roy,

Quote:

Why would you use a higher ISO over a lower one?




Because the high gain (high ISO) sometimes have less read noise. The reason is that there are many electronic components which contribute to the read noise. When they are fed with high voltages, their own noise becomes less significant. It's like a audio speaker that emits a constant low-volume hiss (noise). For low-gain signals (soft music), you can hear the noise. Feed the speaker with a high-gain signal (loud music), and the hiss is drowned out. Ideally, of course, there would be no hiss, and we would have the same (low) read noise (in electrons) at all ISO settings, but that's not the case with many current DSLR cameras.

Quote:


For example, if I am correct, a 4 min sub at ISO 800 would be the same as a 2 min sub at ISO 1600.





The 4 min sub at ISO 800 has twice as much signal, so it will blow away the 2-min sub no matter what. But if you compared a 4-min ISO 800 vs a 4-min ISO 1600, you would find the 1600 to have a better SNR thanks to lower read noise.

Quote:


And if ISO 1600 is ok for a double of 800 .. why not use 3200?




For one, some cameras don't have an analog 3200; it's just an in-camera digital gain of ISO 1600; something that is better done in post (where you can do it without clipping 1 stop of highlights). For two, even in the cameras that do have analog ISO 3200, the difference in read noise is negligible: the random read noise is the same.

So the technique for selecting ISO is very simple: ETTR then ITTR.

1. Expose to the right (ETTR).

That means to increase exposure (photons) as much as possible without clipping highlights that you care about or causing other problems. For example, if your mount can only handle 30 seconds, don't shoot 10 minute subs. If light pollution limits you to 1 minute, that's where you have to stop.

2. ISO to the right (ITTR).

This means to increase ISO as high as possible without clipping highlights that you care about or going over the highest useful gain of the camera. You only perform this step *after* ETTR and if you still have room on the right of your histogram. The "highest useful gain" varies by camera. For most it is 1600. The 5D2 allows selection of up to ISO 25600, but the highest useful gain is only ISO 1600. On the Canon 10D it was ISO 800.

Here are some examples:

* Your mount can handle 4-minute subs, but the light pollution is so bad that you can only do two minutes at ISO 100, any more would clip important highlights. The optimal ISO is 100.

* Your mount can handle 2-minute subs, but at ISO 100 the histogram is not to the right yet. You increase ISO as high as possible (ISO 1600) before clipping important highlights.

The ETTR-then-ITTR technique will always give you the highest possible SNR and the best image data.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Roy Salisbury
sage


Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3346779 - 09/21/09 01:22 PM

Ok... So let me see if I can get this correct. Lets say I start out at ISO 100 and take a 5 min sub ..

1. Look at the image and make sure that the mount could handle it (guiding tracking). If not, start over with a lower sub exposure time.
2. Make sure I did not "over" expose by looking at the histogram and making sure its not too far to the right (I read that 1/3 form then left, 2/3 from the right is the correct spot).
3. Based on the histogram, either raise the ISO or lower the exposure.
4. Take a lot of subs at the correct time/iso setting and stack them in software.

Would this be your recommendation?

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3346830 - 09/21/09 01:38 PM

You've got it. One quick comment:

Quote:


(I read that 1/3 form then left, 2/3 from the right is the correct spot).





2/3 from the right is not optimal, but we often have to settle for sub-optimal because our mounts are not stable enough. The optimal histogram is to have your important image data all the way up against the right side: almost touching it.

Keep in mind that the histogram on the camera LCD is often different from the true raw histogram, though it's possible to tune some settings to get it a little closer. A program like IRIS will show you the real histogram.

The ideal histogram is 1/3 stop from clipping (i.e. if you increased exposure by 1/3 stop, then it would blow important highlights.)

--------------------
--Daniel


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Roy Salisbury
sage


Reged: 05/26/09
Posts: 413
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3346955 - 09/21/09 02:23 PM

OK.. Thanks. I'll have to really start paying attention to the histogram. Right now I just use the stock Canon EOS software that came with the camera, so I have to figure out how to even get at the histogram using that application. But I will look at my existing images and see how things show up.

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Illinois
professor emeritus


Reged: 12/18/06
Posts: 731
Loc: near Chicago, Illinois USA
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3347212 - 09/21/09 04:15 PM

Hi

Last Saturday night, I got nice Cygnus and milky way also nice M31 and fuzzy tiny blob M33 at 3 minutes exposure, ISO 1600 and stop at F 3.5 at my parents house which is about 100 miles away! Light pollution is yellow zone. I can see milky way above head and the sky is clear. I tried 15 minutes exposure at ISO 1600 and its almost white frame! I wondered, is that only up to about 10 minutes exposure because of the light pollution and longer exposure might be okay in gray zone when I visit my mother in law in the upper Michigan. What about lower ISO down to 800 and 15 minutes exposure would be good at my parents house. I have to experiment to find out! I use lense 18 mm up to 55 mm. I can't wait to try M 45 on my camera's zoom at about 55 mm when its above head and I hope to able to get M45's nebula in this November or December during no moon.

--------------------
Astronomer since 1975!

Orion 80mm ED refractor and
iOptron CubePro mount
Meade 16" Lightbridge Dobsonian
Orion 10" SkyQuest Classic Dobsonian
Tele Vue Eyepieces
Canon EOS XS 1000D
Orion Planetary 5 mm and
Orion Expanse Wide-Field 6mm eyepiece
4.5" F5 Reflector since 1982!
Orion Narrowband and SkyGlow filters
Member of IDA, let's fight light pollution!

Old Edmund 6"F8...donated to cousins
Super Polaris C8...donated to Byron Observatory in Illinois


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saadabbasi
sage


Reged: 08/23/09
Posts: 235
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3348940 - 09/22/09 12:30 PM

Quote:

You've got it. One quick comment:

Quote:


(I read that 1/3 form then left, 2/3 from the right is the correct spot).





2/3 from the right is not optimal, but we often have to settle for sub-optimal because our mounts are not stable enough. The optimal histogram is to have your important image data all the way up against the right side: almost touching it.

Keep in mind that the histogram on the camera LCD is often different from the true raw histogram, though it's possible to tune some settings to get it a little closer. A program like IRIS will show you the real histogram.

The ideal histogram is 1/3 stop from clipping (i.e. if you increased exposure by 1/3 stop, then it would blow important highlights.)




I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't the stars be blown out if my histogram "mountain" was almost touching the right-edge?

--------------------
Orion ST80 w/ SSAG
Losmandy G11 w/ Gemini
Nikon D40
SBIG ST8300M on order.


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HaleBopper
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Great White North
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3349256 - 09/22/09 02:53 PM

Quote:


In Canon cameras at least, using a higher ISO actually has less read noise than a lower ISO. That's number one.





Hi there, I'm a bit confused with that statement. I always thought that increasing the ISO increased the sensitivity, but also the noise.

I use ISO 800 on my Digital Rebel XTi 400D beacuse I thought it gave a good compromise between sensitivity and noise. My decision was based on this review article:

http://www.backyardastronomy.com/Backyard_Astronomy/DSLR_Cameras_for_Astrophotography_files/SLRcameras.pdf

In the noise and atrifacts section, it's mentioned: "increasing the ISO speed boosts a camera’s sensitivity but also increases noise."

Even though the noise was larger in two other camera makes at higher ISO, the article suggests, IMO, that at ISO 1600, although still usuable, will have more noise at higher ISO for the Canon XTi.

The longest exposures I have done so far have been 6 min at ISO 800. I'm wondering if it's worth trying ISO 1600??

--------------------
8" SCT, AT8IN, Losmandy G11, CG5 mounts
Canon Digital Rebel 400
5, 8, 13, 17, 24mm Orion Stratus
Hyperion 31 mm Aspheric
Axiom 23 mm
Pentax 10 mm XW


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3349308 - 09/22/09 03:16 PM

Quote:


...wouldn't the stars be blown out if my histogram "mountain" was almost touching the right-edge?




It's important to identify the part of the histogram that you care about. If you care about the stars, then you will try to get that part of the histogram to almost touch the right edge. That will of course cause more noise in the darker parts of the image (extended objects like nebula and galaxies). If you want less noise in those extended objects, you have to accept clipping of the star data. One practical application of this is to take one set of subs for the bright data (stars and galaxy core) and another set of subs for the dark data (galaxy arms, dust lanes, etc.) Then merge both subs in post processing. It's called exposure-blending HDR (High Dynamic Range).

HTH.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: HaleBopper]
      #3349344 - 09/22/09 03:33 PM

Quote:


Hi there, I'm a bit confused with that statement. I always thought that increasing the ISO increased the sensitivity, but also the noise.





I know what you mean; the reality is somewhat counterintuitive. Hopefully I can make it clear. Increasing ISO doesn't increase the sensitivity. Increasing ISO has several possible effects:

1. It increases brightness. (This causes higher ADU values; of course, we could do this in post processing, so if that was the only benefit we would probably never use high ISO.)
2. On many cameras, increased ISO has lower read noise (higher SNR, lower read noise electrons).

Quote:


I use ISO 800 on my Digital Rebel XTi 400D beacuse I thought it gave a good compromise between sensitivity and noise. My decision was based on this review article:

http://www.backyardastronomy.com/Backyard_Astronomy/DSLR_Cameras_for_Astrophotography_files/SLRcameras.pdf

In the noise and atrifacts section, it's mentioned: "increasing the ISO speed boosts a camera’s sensitivity but also increases noise."





That article is mixing up two different factors:

1. Decrease in exposure
2. Increase in ISO

They compare 12 minutes at ISO 400 vs 3 minutes at ISO 1600. It correctly confirms that short exposures have more noise than long exposures. But it does *not* tell you what happens when you are already using the brightest/longest exposure possible. If your max is 3 minutes, and you compare ISO 400 vs 1600, 1600 will have less noise.

When most people say "high ISO has more noise", what they really mean is "high ISO combined with less exposure has more noise". High ISO with the *same* exposure has less noise (higher SNR).

Quote:


Even though the noise was larger in two other camera makes at higher ISO, the article suggests, IMO, that at ISO 1600, although still usuable, will have more noise at higher ISO for the Canon XTi.

The longest exposures I have done so far have been 6 min at ISO 800. I'm wondering if it's worth trying ISO 1600??




The difference between 800 and 1600 is small, but noticeable. If you can do it without clipping highlights, it's a no-brainer.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Mike Clemens
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Reged: 11/26/05
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3349488 - 09/22/09 04:35 PM

That's it. I'm going for 15 minute ISO1600 exposures next time!

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saadabbasi
sage


Reged: 08/23/09
Posts: 235
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3349571 - 09/22/09 05:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:


...wouldn't the stars be blown out if my histogram "mountain" was almost touching the right-edge?




It's important to identify the part of the histogram that you care about. If you care about the stars, then you will try to get that part of the histogram to almost touch the right edge. That will of course cause more noise in the darker parts of the image (extended objects like nebula and galaxies). If you want less noise in those extended objects, you have to accept clipping of the star data. One practical application of this is to take one set of subs for the bright data (stars and galaxy core) and another set of subs for the dark data (galaxy arms, dust lanes, etc.) Then merge both subs in post processing. It's called exposure-blending HDR (High Dynamic Range).

HTH.




Thanks for the brilliant explanation! It makes much more sense.

One more thing, however, I'm going try and shoot M42, M31 and M45 this winter when I get my Losmandy G11. Initially, I intend to use a 200mm lens(effective focal length of 350 on my camera) and use the mount without any sort of guiding.

Should I try and get the mountain almost to the right edge? Or is 2/3rd of the way from right edge good enough? Considering i have a relatively good mount and I'm using a smallish focal length, would it be wise to try and go for the right edge of the histogram?

Also, I've been thinking about this, as in why we do this, and is it because this allows us to use the entire dynamic range of the camera?

--------------------
Orion ST80 w/ SSAG
Losmandy G11 w/ Gemini
Nikon D40
SBIG ST8300M on order.


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Jerry Lodriguss
Vendor


Reged: 07/19/08
Posts: 891
Loc: Voorhees, NJ
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: HaleBopper]
      #3349715 - 09/22/09 06:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:


In Canon cameras at least, using a higher ISO actually has less read noise than a lower ISO. That's number one.





Hi there, I'm a bit confused with that statement. I always thought that increasing the ISO increased the sensitivity, but also the noise.

I use ISO 800 on my Digital Rebel XTi 400D beacuse I thought it gave a good compromise between sensitivity and noise. My decision was based on this review article:

http://www.backyardastronomy.com/Backyard_Astronomy/DSLR_Cameras_for_Astrophotography_files/SLRcameras.pdf

In the noise and atrifacts section, it's mentioned: "increasing the ISO speed boosts a camera’s sensitivity but also increases noise."

Even though the noise was larger in two other camera makes at higher ISO, the article suggests, IMO, that at ISO 1600, although still usuable, will have more noise at higher ISO for the Canon XTi.

The longest exposures I have done so far have been 6 min at ISO 800. I'm wondering if it's worth trying ISO 1600??





This is a common misconception. In fact, most of the famous digital camera review sites even repeat it.

You can not, and do not, increase the camera's "sensitivity" by increasing the ISO.

Digital sensors only have one sensitivity and it is fixed.

That's why astronomical CCD cameras don't even have an ISO setting.

When you change the ISO on a DSLR, you change the gain... that is how many photoelectrons are mapped to how many steps of the bit depth.

The reason images seem to have more noise at higher ISOs is that people cut the exposure in half when they double the ISO. Half the exposure means half the photons. That means half the signal. That means the signal-to-noise ratio is twice as bad.

So, you don't have more noise - you have the same noise - BUT you also have less signal. You have a worse signal-to-noise ratio.

You can make it a lot more complicated than this, but this is what is important... signal-to-noise ratio.

You can check out Roger Clark's, or Christian Buil's web sites if you don't believe me that Canon cameras have lower readout noise at higher ISOs.

If you want to shoot faint stuff, use ISO 1600, but don't necessarily cut your exposure in half.

Use the histogram to judge your correct minimum exposure to separate the faint data from the noise, and then shoot a lot of exposures and stack them to increase the s/n ratio.

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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Daniel Browning
super member


Reged: 08/11/08
Posts: 143
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3349838 - 09/22/09 07:11 PM

Quote:


Should I try and get the mountain almost to the right edge? Or is 2/3rd of the way from right edge good enough?





2/3rd is good, and that's further than I can get most of the time (I'm usually 30 seconds or less), but going all the way is better still. I suggest going as far as you can without clipping the highlights you care about.

Since most histograms are gamma-corrected, even a small movement of the histogram (1/3 closer to the right edge) can be a 2-stop difference (factor of 4X).

Quote:


Considering i have a relatively good mount and I'm using a smallish focal length, would it be wise to try and go for the right edge of the histogram?





Yes.

Quote:


Also, I've been thinking about this, as in why we do this, and is it because this allows us to use the entire dynamic range of the camera?




Yes. We're trying to map the dynamic range of the camera to the part of the scene we care about.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Cow Jazz
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3350011 - 09/22/09 08:37 PM

WOW! What a great thread. I just had my first "successful" night of imaging last Saturday with my XT, and now really want to get better. This answered many questions I didn't even know I had. Thanks, everyone.

--------------------
John aka: Byrdzeye
NYAA, Toronto
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HaleBopper
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Cow Jazz]
      #3350090 - 09/22/09 09:13 PM

Thank you Daniel and Jerry for your explanations.

--------------------
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Tech Hiker
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3350215 - 09/22/09 10:00 PM

Quote:

When most people say "high ISO has more noise", what they really mean is "high ISO combined with less exposure has more noise". High ISO with the *same* exposure has less noise (higher SNR).




Ah, now I understand. Great thread.

--------------------
Tom


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saadabbasi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3350956 - 09/23/09 08:02 AM

Quote:


2/3rd is good, and that's further than I can get most of the time (I'm usually 30 seconds or less), but going all the way is better still. I suggest going as far as you can without clipping the highlights you care about.






Only 30 seconds? Really? Wow. Are you limited due to light pollution or is your mount not tracking well?

--------------------
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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3351314 - 09/23/09 10:42 AM

Quote:

Only 30 seconds? Really? Wow. Are you limited due to light pollution or is your mount not tracking well?




I don't even own a tracking mount, though sometimes I borrow one. But I'm often doing timelapse video, not stills, so a little motion blur is a good thing.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3352951 - 09/24/09 12:18 AM

Ok, this seems like the right thread to drop this question to some of you professionals: I'm considering trading in my Canon 450D for the 500D mainly because of increased ISO, is that worthwhile?

The 15mp and video mode are nice, but the main reason is that I want to boost the gain even more. My system can only take so much exposure time before tracking errors come into play, and I figured I could also be more efficient with my time if I don't have to take painfully long subs to get the image I desire.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353016 - 09/24/09 12:54 AM

Funny you should ask this question. I have the 500D and one of the reasons I asked initially about the ISO settings was that I was confused about what I should be using. My uneducated guess is that the newer firmware on the camera will let you use higher ISO's and they (Canon) have improved the in camera processing to give less noise. It would be interesting to see a comparison between the 450 and 500 to see how they compare noise wise (is iso 800 on the 450 comparable now to 1600 on the 500D).

There is a post here that compares the 40D and the 500D..

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353024 - 09/24/09 12:59 AM

Quote:

Ok, this seems like the right thread to drop this question to some of you professionals: I'm considering trading in my Canon 450D for the 500D mainly because of increased ISO, is that worthwhile?

The 15mp and video mode are nice, but the main reason is that I want to boost the gain even more. My system can only take so much exposure time before tracking errors come into play, and I figured I could also be more efficient with my time if I don't have to take painfully long subs to get the image I desire.




Well, you can do that, but you have to realize two things...

1. You will have less dynamic range at a higher ISO.

2. You can not double your ISO and cut your total exposure time in half and get the same quality results in terms of signal to noise.

You only get signal by collecting actual photons in an exposure.

Doubling the ISO does not magically increase the sensor's sensitivity allowing 1/2 the exposure time.

To get the same quality image in terms of signal-to-noise at a higher ISO, you still need exactly the same amount of total exposure time. And you can get this at a higher ISO with shorter subs, if you simply double the number of subs when you double the ISO...

However, you individual sub must still be enough exposure to get the faintest data up out of the readout noise of the camera.

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353034 - 09/24/09 01:05 AM

Quote:

Ok, this seems like the right thread to drop this question to some of you professionals: I'm considering trading in my Canon 450D for the 500D mainly because of increased ISO, is that worthwhile?





No, I don't think it's worthwhile. The ISO 3200 in the 500D is a true analog gain, but the read noise is so close to ISO 1600 that I suggest sticking to 1600 anyway (for the increased highlight headroom, which means fewer blown out stars and galaxy cores).

The 6400 and 12800 ISO settings are just digital manipulations of the 3200 file: 1 stop of data is deleted (for no reason) and the file size is increased (for no reason). They should never be used.

That said, some tests show slightly improved read noise in the 500D over the 450D (at the same ISO settings). Pattern noise is improved, especially. I don't think the difference is important enough to warrant an upgrade. (The 7D, on the other hand, looks like a nice improvement, you may consider waiting for the 550D if it has the same sensor and electronics as the 7D.)

Quote:


My system can only take so much exposure time before tracking errors come into play, and I figured I could also be more efficient with my time if I don't have to take painfully long subs to get the image I desire.




Sorry, but I don't think the 500D will help you enough there. It would be best to continue doing the same painfully long subs (up to the max your tracking can handle).

--------------------
--Daniel


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Jerry Lodriguss
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3353069 - 09/24/09 01:41 AM

Daniel's point about the highest ISOs of 6400 and 12800 is a very good one. That's not a real gain increase.

3200 could be used though if you are really having trouble with tracking, as long as the base exposure is long enough to get the data up out of the readout noise of the camera.

Jerry

--------------------
A Beginner's Guide to DSLR Astrophotography
http://www.astropix.com


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Jerry Lodriguss]
      #3353118 - 09/24/09 02:27 AM

Yeah, that was pretty much the idea- using 3200 ISO with more subs. Regardless, I'm getting an autoguider for use with my CGE, as well as an f/6 reducer- that will be less than the price of a new camera. It would be nice though, if there were some way to "boost" the ISO in the 450D. I know that with the Canon Powershot I started out with, there was a software manipulation that allowed 60 second exposures and higher gain.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353122 - 09/24/09 02:30 AM

Btw, the "higher ISO, more subs" technique would be really useful on the 24". If I take two 600 second subs at 1600 ISO on M27, say, (the minimum amount of time I need for a decent image at f/13.2), I could take four of 300 seconds at 3200 ISO. That beast still drifts if you expose long enough, and I tend to beat myself up if I only have enough scope time for four or five good subs, and only two of those come out.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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KevinUK
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353165 - 09/24/09 03:09 AM

Wasn't Jerry saying in an earlier post that the ideal ISO for 450d was 800??

Now you're wanting to double and 4x that!?

--------------------
DSLR AstroMod
DSLR filter removal and replacement packages

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-------------------------------


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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353176 - 09/24/09 03:22 AM

Quote:

It would be nice though, if there were some way to "boost" the ISO in the 450D.




There is. Just cut your exposure. Even if your camera had a real 3200, it would not be noticeably better than 1600. In all the other cameras that have it, the difference is not perceptible (to me, at least). You get the same SNR whether you shoot 1600 or 3200. The only difference is that one requires a little more gain in post and the other has more clipped stars.

--------------------
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Samir Kharusi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353204 - 09/24/09 04:05 AM

Quote:

Yeah, that was pretty much the idea- using 3200 ISO with more subs. Regardless, I'm getting an autoguider for use with my CGE, as well as an f/6 reducer- that will be less than the price of a new camera. It would be nice though, if there were some way to "boost" the ISO in the 450D. I know that with the Canon Powershot I started out with, there was a software manipulation that allowed 60 second exposures and higher gain.



Just because one can autoguide one-hour exposures does not make one-hour subs a good idea. Very long subs are not terribly practical unless you have a permanent set-up, otherwise you may find that your 2-hour drift alignment torture session during set-up was simply not good enough to get rid of field rotation, despite the autoguiding. When you have only 3 subs totalling 3 hours and one has a plane in it, the next has a satellite... Personally I do not believe in "exposing to the right" for astro. Seeing seems to impact the longer exposures more than the shorter ones, and getting rid of noise artifacts (be it thermal, or cosmic rays or banding or...) is easier the more subs there are in a stack. The sharpest images I have ever shot personally have always been the shortest subs I could get away with while keeping away from Read Noise and unguided. So there are many facets one has to compromise against. Most people's mounts simply cannot track precisely for long enough even just to keep away from Read Noise, so ETTR is often no more than a theoretical objective.

Now to the CGE. The CGE should be able to track unguided for one-minute subs at a focal length of 1200mm, and in inverse proportion, 2min subs at 600mm, 4min at 300mm, etc. The MINIMAL length subs you can get away with at a dark site are 1-minute at f2.8, 2-minutes at f4, 4-minutes at f5.6, etc. These will give you a skyfog histogram in all recent Canon DSLRs that is detatched from the Read Noise at the origin enough that your subs will stack beautifully. I suspect that you are using an SCT? At f10 you need subs that are 13minutes each at a dark site, and even at f6.3 you need 5-minute subs. Even autoguiding with a separate guidescope is not the answer. You will eventually need an off-axis guider. That's the bad news. The good news is that if your SCT is a C11 or C14 just purchase a Hyperstar and enjoy. No autoguiding, ever. A C8 at f6.3 is still too much magnification (image scale in arc-sec per pixel is too fine) for pleasant DSO imaging on a recent DSLR. You need to keep the image scale coarser than 1 arc-sec per pixel since you are unlikely to have seeing at better than 2 arc-sec FWHM anyway. So heroic efforts are very unlikely to satisfy fully. I have not found much difference between ISO 1600 and ISO 800 at very dark sites, so again IMHO the choice between the two is at best a minor quibble when using Minimal Length subs, as opposed to ETTR. ETTR at a pristine site at f6.3 or f10 is enormously difficult. Minimal length at f10 being 13 minutes, ETTR ends up 60+?Pristine site, use 1600 (makes the frames look brighter), some skyfog use 800, more skyfog drop to 400, etc. So, with the CGE focal-length rule-of-thumb and the f-stop rule-of-thumb you may be able to do all your DSO imaging with no autoguiding if you have a suitable OTA or camera lens. In addition, train your PEC and remember to initiate it every time you switch on the mount. The CGE does NOT initiate the PEC by default. Also note that 1st generation handpaddles for the CGE had non-functioning PEC. You need to replace it with a 2nd generation handpaddle. You can do the training at a long focal length visually and the focal length rule-of-thumb quoted above may improve dramatically. Consequently I think this should be your first step. Establish your own rule-of-thumb for subs-length vs focal length for unguided subs. You do not need a 100% yield. As long as you can achieve a 70+% yield you will find it much more pleasant to do unguided imaging than autoguiding. The best use I have found for my autoguider was to do the PEC training. After that I have put the autoguider away for 2 or 3 years now. I am currently using an unguided AP1200 at home so I cannot tell you what focal length vs sub-length rule of thumb is achievable with a CGE+PEC, but you may find that establishing that for your own mount maximises your facility for DSO imaging enormously. First essential IMHO is to understand your mount's behaviour and how it impacts your choice of OTA and sub-length. It takes us all many years of fumbling to find which rules-of-thumb work best with our own equipment or in our purchasing decisions.

I would put the order of importance for DSO imaging as follows:
1. Sub-exposures SHORT enough that your tracking is pixel-perfect in 70+% of your frames
2. Sub-exposures LONG enough that your skyfog is clear of Read Noise on the histogram. Points 1 and 2 really do put a squeeze on and ought to determine which OTA you purchase.
3. Ample integration time for your skyfog level
4. Full calibration of the frames; darks, bias, flats.
5. All the peripheral stuff that actually have little impact compared to the above 4, like choice of which Canon DSLR, ISO, ETTR, etc, etc
But that's just IMHO...

--------------------
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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3353215 - 09/24/09 04:35 AM

Quote:

...ETTR is often no more than a theoretical objective.





Great post as usual, Samir. Theory has a way of getting messed up by realities like imperfect alignment, satellites, airplanes, poor seeing, variable pattern noise (banding), thermal noise, and more. Good caveats to mention in the same breath as ETTR advice.

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--Daniel


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Samir Kharusi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3353259 - 09/24/09 05:45 AM

Quote:

Btw, the "higher ISO, more subs" technique would be really useful on the 24". If I take two 600 second subs at 1600 ISO on M27, say, (the minimum amount of time I need for a decent image at f/13.2), I could take four of 300 seconds at 3200 ISO. That beast still drifts if you expose long enough, and I tend to beat myself up if I only have enough scope time for four or five good subs, and only two of those come out.



I think you should not bother chasing the dim nebulae at f13. The 24" should be able to achieve sub-arc-second resolution by using very, very short subs on the bright, hi-res stuff that are out of reach of smaller OTAs, eg what about trying to capture those proto-planets in the Trapezium, so far only seen by the Hubble(?), click here. There are also many similar challenges, e.g. Sirius B, the Merope nebula in M45, comparing the cores of M31, M33, M101, etc. I would be tempted to chase the bright tiny stuff out of reach of smaller OTAs, but do-able with subs only a few seconds long, or getting surface features on the moons of Jupiter.

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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3353864 - 09/24/09 12:42 PM

This is all great information. But I think its making my brain hurt.

Of the 3 experts it appears (from my understanding) that we have 3 points of view.

1) Start with higher subs, lower iso and adjust from there...
2) Start with higher iso, lower subs and adjust from there...
3) Stick with a "general camera specific" iso and adjust your time (and perhaps the iso) based on conditions.

Everyone seems to agree the key is LOTS of subs no matter how long the exposure or iso. Also, 1 hour is still 1 hour - be it 20 subs @ 5min or 120 subs at 30 sec.

So knowing that.. can someone summarize why I would need to increase/decrease my iso based on a fixed total time. Say I only have 1 hour, no more, no less, and can take any combination of subs (240 15 sec, or 20 5 min .. or anywhere in between and I have all the darks/flats/bias that I would need). What are the factors in choosing one iso over another? What I am reading here is that it is camera bit depth, and skyfog. Is that right?

Roy

Also, it would be interesting to know how a CCD (say the DSI Pro) compares to a DSLR's ISO settings. Say I had 1 hour with each at the same site.. What ISO might make them comparable (if its even a fair question).

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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saadabbasi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3353918 - 09/24/09 01:07 PM

I think skyglow and your mount would be bigger factors than the camera's bit depth. But I'm just a beginner like you, so I hardly know anything.

And as far as I've read, CCD cameras don't even have ISOs. They bin (join) pixels together to increase sensitivity. Whether this actually increases sensitivity or is just another method of amplification, I do not know.

--------------------
Orion ST80 w/ SSAG
Losmandy G11 w/ Gemini
Nikon D40
SBIG ST8300M on order.

Edited by saadabbasi (09/24/09 01:10 PM)


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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3353946 - 09/24/09 01:25 PM

Quote:

And as far as I've read, CCD cameras don't even have ISOs. They bin (join) pixels together to increase sensitivity. Whether this actually increases sensitivity or is just another method of amplification, I do not know.




That is why I was wondering. I understand they don't have an ISO setting, so was curious what DSLR ISO would compare to a CCD.

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3353957 - 09/24/09 01:30 PM

I'm going to need to add to this post later in the evening when I'm finished with classes, but MANY THANKS for all of the great information here, I really appreciate the perspective, especially with all of the technical details.

As far as the 24" is concerned, it's just cool to get a big, up close shot of NGC4565 or M82- and you guys know it Also, I use EP projection with a 40mm SWA on the 24", prime focus is INSANE to get right.

With my CGE setup, yes it is a C11. I have an F/3 reducer, and was planning on an F/6 (the F/3 is Meade and doesn't focus too well with the 450D for whatever reason). Hyperstar is appealing to me more and more... but at the same time I'm drawn to the idea of an AT8RC. The hyperstar will give me huge, wide fields, and that's something I use my refractor for anyways. I want to get into galaxies and globular clusters with the SCT.

My dad is an imaging systems designer, and he has some high power monochrome CCDs that I'm going to try out as well for those "deeper" images, we'll see how that works out. The CGE tracks just fine for me with my 100ED, just not the C11 at 2800mm (as expected). To start, I am getting a 66mm ED guidescope and using my DSI to guide, then I can move up to more advanced techniques.

I most certainly agree that longer subs are not the answer, especially since I do not have a permanent setup. Even with the 24", I will take some gorgeous looking 15-20 minute subs, only to have them screwed up my drift or someone bumping into the scope

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3354198 - 09/24/09 03:54 PM

Quote:


So knowing that.. can someone summarize why I would need to increase/decrease my iso based on a fixed total time.





It's hard to summarize because there are a lot of different conditions and exceptions.

Quote:


Say I only have 1 hour, no more, no less, and can take any combination of subs (240 15 sec, or 20 5 min .. or anywhere in between and I have all the darks/flats/bias that I would need). What are the factors in choosing one iso over another? What I am reading here is that it is camera bit depth, and skyfog. Is that right?





There are many factors. If you're a space telescope, the best combination is one single hour-long sub. But let's say you're down here on earth, and sky glow limits you to 30 minutes (I'm pulling numbers out of "thin air" just for illustration). Satellites limit you to 25. The tracking mount limits you to 20. Slight imperfection in alignment limits you to 15. The camera thermal noise limits you to 10. The need for sufficient subs to eradicate variable pattern noise limits you to 7. Target object being right over an international airport limits you to 5 minutes due to airplanes. Seeing limits you to 3 minutes. People with flashlights walking by limits you to 2 minutes.

Now your down to 30 2-minute subs, some of which will be thrown away due to variability in seeing (e.g. throwing away the worst 20%), some discarded for airplanes and some for satellites, some for people walking by, etc.

So there is a sliding scale from bad to normal to ideal conditions. But once you have decided on what the longest longest sub possible is for your conditions, then increase the ISO as much as possible without clipping the highlights you care about. The highest useful ISO on most cameras is 1600.

Quote:


Also, it would be interesting to know how a CCD (say the DSI Pro) compares to a DSLR's ISO settings.





Generally, ISO is uninteresting in astrophotography. All we care about is what the analog gain is (+3db, +12db, etc.). DSLR manufacturers happen to assign cutesy (and arbitrary) "ISO" numbers to their gain settings, and it doesn't hurt (that much) to use their terminology, but it's pretty much just a novelty.

What we care most about are quantum efficiency, read noise, dark current, and full well capacity.

Quote:


Say I had 1 hour with each at the same site.. What ISO might make them comparable (if its even a fair question).





One way would be to calculate the ISO setting at which the DSLR camera achieves the same conversion gain as the DSI Pro for a given tone (at a certain distance from clipping). That is not how most manufacturers calculate "ISO", though. (They can pretty much make up whatever number they want, the "standard" is completely open-ended.) It would just be novelty trivia.


Quote:

And as far as I've read, CCD cameras don't even have ISOs. They bin (join) pixels together to increase sensitivity. Whether this actually increases sensitivity or is just another method of amplification, I do not know.




As you suspected, it does not actually increase sensitivity. If each pixel had 30 photons, binning four pixels would give you 120 photons per pixel. But you can do that just as easily in post processing, so there is no gain in sensitivity.

However, there *is* an improvement in read noise: ideally, binning gives you half the read noise of a normal downsample. So as long as read noise improves, binning results in higher SNR.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3354375 - 09/24/09 06:03 PM Attachment (42 downloads)

I'm trying to narrow in on a specific "real" example so that I and perhaps others have a visual reference. I have attached a screen shot of the Canon software histogram of M42. This image was taken at ISO 800 and is a single 2m30s sub with no processing. My reading of the scale shows that I just started clipping some of the data (it just started to pass the "0" mark).

Now, if that is correct, that means that I can either:

1) Reduce the exposure length or reduce the ISO. Since I don't want to reduce the exposure length (more photons and tracking is good) I would lower the the ISO. That also assumes that I actually care about the data being clipped (which is probable the trapezium being overexposed, and in this case that is going to happen pretty much anytime you want the other detail in a single sub).

2) Increase the ISO and clip more of the trapezium so that I could get more of the detail in the rest. Or, increase the exposure time so I can get more photons (still clipping the trapezium).

What would you guys do? With my untrained eye and beginner attitude I would either say "WOW.. look what a great shot I just made" and then post it for everyone to see .. OR, being the perfectionest that I am try to fix the trap by reducing the exposure time. Neither of which is probably the correct answer.

Roy

If you want to see the full image for better reference, go here:

http://media.express-is.net/astroimages/2009-09-20/IMG_002636.JPG




--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


Edited by Roy Salisbury (09/24/09 06:05 PM)


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saadabbasi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3354427 - 09/24/09 06:36 PM

You would make a High Dynamic Range image. Basically, take a number of subs but expose for the faint details, forget about the core of M42.

Take a second set of subs and this time, take care of the core and forget about the faint details.

You combine this data in Photoshop, after the usual calibration. THis is outlined here:

http://astropix.com/HTML/J_DIGIT/COMP2.HTM

By the way, its already a fine image! I hope I can make something similar in December when I get my mount

--------------------
Orion ST80 w/ SSAG
Losmandy G11 w/ Gemini
Nikon D40
SBIG ST8300M on order.


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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3354446 - 09/24/09 06:44 PM

Quote:


What would you guys do?





If you care about the trapezium, you will lose most of the nebula to noise. If you care more about the nebula, you will blow out the trapezium.

If you want to have your cake and eat it too, there's really only one option: exposure blending. Take one set of subs exposed for the trapezium (e.g. 30s) and a second set exposed for the rest of the nebula (e.g. 5 minutes). Process each separately, then blend as a final step. It's known as HDR.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: saadabbasi]
      #3354461 - 09/24/09 06:53 PM

I have seen some articles on combining different exposures for an HDR .. What I am wondering is if I had went to far with this image on the histogram or not enough. There are parts of the nebula that are still not showing (or are really faint). Should I be pusing the histogram further (its only clipping a low portion and has not got into the "up hill curve" yet)?

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Daniel Browning
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3354491 - 09/24/09 07:10 PM

Quote:

I have seen some articles on combining different exposures for an HDR .. What I am wondering is if I had went to far with this image on the histogram or not enough. There are parts of the nebula that are still not showing (or are really faint). Should I be pusing the histogram further (its only clipping a low portion and has not got into the "up hill curve" yet)?





I think most viewers would prefer longer exposures with more of the nebula, even though it will mean more clipping of the core. But some might prefer less nebula detail in order to preserve the trapezium. So it's a bit of an subjective choice.

--------------------
--Daniel


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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3354523 - 09/24/09 07:32 PM

Quote:


I think most viewers would prefer longer exposures with more of the nebula, even though it will mean more clipping of the core. But some might prefer less nebula detail in order to preserve the trapezium. So it's a bit of an subjective choice.




OK.. Fair enough. At least now I know I am "on the edge" of a personal preference and not still far off the mark in my exposure time and iso setting. I can then (hopefully) apply the same logic to other objects to know if I have gone too far or not enough.

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Daniel Browning]
      #3354524 - 09/24/09 07:33 PM

Subjective, but you can have the best of both worlds if you blend exposures. I do it regularly on objects like M42, or on globular clusters.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3354553 - 09/24/09 07:54 PM

Quote:

Subjective, but you can have the best of both worlds if you blend exposures. I do it regularly on objects like M42, or on globular clusters.




Since right now the only things that I have attempted are globular clusters and M42, I will be reading up on blending as everyone has indicated. So far I am still learing the correct way to take a "single" image, so I have a lot to learn, and ISO settings and exposure time was a big step for me (does not matter if I have 100's of subs if they are all wrong to begin with )

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3354732 - 09/24/09 09:38 PM

I sympathize with that too. Part of why I finally bit the bug and am getting an autoguider. I thought moving up to the CGE mount will solve all of my problems and be rock solid, but a collapsible electronic EQ mount is much different from a 10 ton clockwork setup. Some nights no images are useable, and I'm stacking junk subs just to make myself feel better about it... it's a frustrating hobby to learn.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3354748 - 09/24/09 09:42 PM

And there's nothing wrong with just starting on the bright stuff like M42. It's one of those objects where you can "always" get a pretty image. I even managed one with a digicam and a toy refractor. The Double Cluster, M8, and Beehive are also "easy" ones- not to mention you can shoot M31 and the Pleiades with your AT66; I can't wait to get mine, it will be so much easier imaging at something other than 2800mm

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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Roy Salisbury
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3354822 - 09/24/09 10:13 PM

I have not tried actually imaging with the AT66 yet. There is not enough back focus in it without a diagonal and I feel that putting a 2" diag on it too mount my DSLR would be to much. But hey.. I may try anyway "just to see" (though I won't be wasting very dark skies and good seeing to try .. I'll try it in the city first).

I'm going to "try" M8 next and see what I get.

Roy

--------------------
Scope: CPC 800 / AT66ED
Cameras: Canon 500D / QHY9M / SSAG

Hualapai Valley Observatory


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supercoolone
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3354859 - 09/24/09 10:27 PM

I am truly humbled by the out pouring of knowledge. Thank you all.



Edited by supercoolone (09/24/09 10:29 PM)


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Samir Kharusi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3355018 - 09/24/09 11:57 PM

Quote:

I'm going to need to add to this post later in the evening when I'm finished with classes, but MANY THANKS for all of the great information here, I really appreciate the perspective, especially with all of the technical details.

As far as the 24" is concerned, it's just cool to get a big, up close shot of NGC4565 or M82- and you guys know it Also, I use EP projection with a 40mm SWA on the 24", prime focus is INSANE to get right.

With my CGE setup, yes it is a C11. I have an F/3 reducer, and was planning on an F/6 (the F/3 is Meade and doesn't focus too well with the 450D for whatever reason). Hyperstar is appealing to me more and more... but at the same time I'm drawn to the idea of an AT8RC. The hyperstar will give me huge, wide fields, and that's something I use my refractor for anyways. I want to get into galaxies and globular clusters with the SCT.

My dad is an imaging systems designer, and he has some high power monochrome CCDs that I'm going to try out as well for those "deeper" images, we'll see how that works out. The CGE tracks just fine for me with my 100ED, just not the C11 at 2800mm (as expected). To start, I am getting a 66mm ED guidescope and using my DSI to guide, then I can move up to more advanced techniques.

I most certainly agree that longer subs are not the answer, especially since I do not have a permanent setup. Even with the 24", I will take some gorgeous looking 15-20 minute subs, only to have them screwed up my drift or someone bumping into the scope



With a C11 the way forward is a Hyperstar. Period. Make sure you get the latest generation. From your first night onwards you will wonder why anyone bothers with an APO refractor these days. I have a 6" and that just sits in the store... The fact is that most C11's are diffraction limited, on an 11" aperture! So resolution is hardly an issue. Your main issue is seeing and how tiny your pixels are so that you can do that seeing-limited image field full justice. I have not, so far, verified whether the Hyperstar lenses mess up the resolution to an extent that seeing is not the limitation. I bought my latest camera, a 500D(T1i) specifically for its tiny pixels (4.7 microns). On a C14 Hyperstar I should get 1.4 arc-sec/pixel. The fallacy is that people view Hyperstars as just widefield systems. True. But since you also get it as a 1.4arc-sec/pixel imager, that's quite hi-res for DSOs. Note that seeing is generally limited to 2 to 3 arc-sec in long exposures. To achieve adequately fine sampling in a typical APO mated to an 11megapixel SBIG astroCCD you will have to use a focal length > 1000mm, probably at f7 or f8. Can't be bothered to work out the numbers but you get the idea. That's why many have switched to RCs, just to get the larger bucket areas. My experiences with getting a C14 to work with a 0.63x reducer were not very impressive, click this. No, if you have a C11, do get a Generation 3 Hyperstar and mate it to a camera (DSLR or astro CCD) with the tiniest multi-megapixels you can. Then you might just sell off the APO. Make sure that any astroCCD you purchase is suited to a Hyperstar (shape, size, tiny pixels, at least 6 megapixels for prints, etc). And whoever said you cannot use tele-extenders on a Hyperstar anyway? So you may end up having a system that works at f2, f2.8, f4... OK, one night in the near future I am planning to try it out. Our weather is still too hot at the moment.

--------------------
Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/


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Samir Kharusi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Roy Salisbury]
      #3355057 - 09/25/09 12:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

And as far as I've read, CCD cameras don't even have ISOs. They bin (join) pixels together to increase sensitivity. Whether this actually increases sensitivity or is just another method of amplification, I do not know.




That is why I was wondering. I understand they don't have an ISO setting, so was curious what DSLR ISO would compare to a CCD.

Roy



Last time I compared one to a DSLR the astroCCD had an effective ISO of 80. Not very impressive. There is this ongoing myth that astroCCDs are "more sensitive". Nonsense for the most part. AstroCCDs are more sensitive when they are used without any filters at all, monochrome. Think of it this way, the major chip manufacturers target their latest chips at the mass market, not at astro-packagers that will at most order a few hundred. Canon and Sony will always put their leading-edge chips in their own cameras, Kodak will try their best to convince camera manufacturers to put their chips in a mass market end product. So IMHO I expect that astro-CCD packagers are left to work with last year's technology. However, most chips are sensitive, generally, between 400nm and 1000nm. Visible light is between 400nm and 650nm. So, for consumer cameras targetted at visible wavelengths, half the sensitivity of the chip is filtered away. Then the Bayer array filters the remaining wavelengths into 3 (RGB). Consequently the SAME chip will show a sensitivity 5 to 6x higher when used as a monochrome camera (inclusive of IR) as it would as a visual, one-shot color camera. This is the source of the belief that astroCCDs are more sensitive. They do indeed gather photons for the L channel (in LRGB imaging) at a 5x to 6x faster rate than the SAME chip would in a one-shot-color configuration. I am skirting the issue of the ultra high end pro astroCCD chips that are back-illuminated and with very large pixels. Their sensitivity will of course get a boost, compared to consumer DSLRs, but these tend to run at $50,000 and up. Typically, it seems that an astro-camera costing, say, $5000, with a low-noise Sony chip may have a chip in it that is used in a Sony consumer camera costing less than half that. Small-market astro packaging remains a very costly cottage industry.

--------------------
Bored? Peruse my website:
http://www.samirkharusi.net/


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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3355238 - 09/25/09 02:30 AM

We'll see how it turns out. I'm definitely considering it, except that I don't quite have $1000 on hand to buy the lens right now. Regardless I'm assuming that I'll need a guidescope for long exposures. The camera I have and will be using is the 450D. Was going to switch up to the 500D, but it doesn't seem worthwhile.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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Tonk
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3355453 - 09/25/09 07:39 AM

Quote:

From your first night onwards you will wonder why anyone bothers with an APO refractor these days




Because they are small and portable, give great wide fields and don't need collimating - period. You can keep your hyperstar - I don't like them and I've yet to see consistent good results with one using a DSLR!

--------------------
Televue 85, GM-8/Gemini, Canon 40D (unmodded), Canon 450D (modded w/Astronomiks clip-ins - UV/IR, OWB)
Coronado SM60/BF10, Baader Herschel Wedge
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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Tonk]
      #3356028 - 09/25/09 01:06 PM

Well there's +1 vote for the refractor side of things To be honest, I'm MUCH more comfortable using a refractor anyways. We'll see where this ends up when I actually have some clear nights to image and some good money to spend.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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justabob
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3356231 - 09/25/09 02:42 PM

Certainly the fast focal ratio of the hyper star has some appeal and indeed may be a viable wide field solution in a fixed observatory. The thought of hauling a couple of hundred pounds of gear to a dark site is a bit much.

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all

Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
SBIG ST8300c
DSI PRO II



Bob



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Mobius1
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: justabob]
      #3356505 - 09/25/09 05:17 PM

Well, my CGE is what I haul out everytime I go out, and it's quite a pain.

--------------------
Martin

William Optics 66SD
Orion 100ED
Orion 120-ST EQ
PST-Ha
Celestron CGE 1100
Canon Rebel XSI with Astronomik filters
DSI-IIC
Homemade spectroscope in progress...
Yerkes Observatory Volunteer
(24" Cass on weekends)


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Mike Clemens
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3356511 - 09/25/09 05:19 PM

I hauled out my AP1200 and TEC200.... ONCE....

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Nils_Lars
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mike Clemens]
      #3356873 - 09/25/09 09:35 PM

Ya I haul out a truckload of stuff including batteries and computer and spend hours setting up and aligning but I dont have any other choice so I just got used to it.

In the summer with limited night it was tough but its getting better now with longer nights.

I guess this is all kind of off topic , thanks very much to everyone for this wealth of knoledge in the posts above.

Maybe someday I will have a place I can image more then a few degrees of the sky in my backyard but im still happy with whatever data I can get.

--------------------
Erik

Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 500D Gary Honis Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik CLS , 12nm Ha , and OIII clip ins
Bahtinov mask
Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II and Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 ED lenses
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/


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saadabbasi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Nils_Lars]
      #3357055 - 09/25/09 11:49 PM

Yep, I'll need to haul out my Losmandy G11, computer, camera and all other accessories that we need!

But I can't see anything more than 3 or 4 stars in the sky in the city, so its worthwhile to drive out of the city. Luckily I'll often have help!

--------------------
Orion ST80 w/ SSAG
Losmandy G11 w/ Gemini
Nikon D40
SBIG ST8300M on order.


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Samir Kharusi
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Re: ISO Settings new [Re: Mobius1]
      #3357067 - 09/26/09 12:02 AM

The way I see it the luggage mounts up as follows:
Mount, OTA, camera (trivial power requirements, a small 12v battery is enough)
Autoguiding normally implies laptop (power needs shoot up enormously, I need 50kg in batteries since both my SBIG guider and laptop are power hogs)

Obviously a small OTA with a short focal length => no autoguiding => small mount

Unfortunately a 5" or larger APO implies as much luggage as a C11 but without the capture bucket size. Smaller than a 4" APO then the competition luggage-wise is camera lenses, not a C11 Hyperstar. Once one is committed to a CGE or a G11 mount for portable use then a C11 Hyperstar unguided is a no-brainer IMHO, rather than a 4" to 6" APO. A 3-hour integration with a C11 Hyperstar at a dark site is very, very difficult to match using a 4"(15 hours). Roughly, a C14 Hyperstar = 5x a 6" APO, a C11 Hyperstar = 5x a 4" APO. Of course all of us have to start with whatever we have today, not some theoretical tomorrow.

When I am in the boonies, I now use camera lenses + a very light mount (Kenko Skymemo) exclusively. At home I use a C14 Hyperstar. Heroically battling my home skyfog with a pee-wee 6" refractor aperture simply never led to satisfaction. A C14 Hyperstar gathers those photons 5x faster and so a 3-hour integration time, do-able in a single session, is equivalent to 15-hours with the 6" requiring at least 4 to 5 nights. No contest.

--------------------
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http://www.samirkharusi.net/


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