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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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Buhlig
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Convince me I need Photoshop - M33
      #3400894 - 10/20/09 07:26 PM Attachment (58 downloads)

I've seen many rave about Adobe Photoshop, but I'm still on the fence considering a purchase. Anyone care to take a stab at processing my latest M33? I'd like to see how much a difference it makes. The full size .jpg is here

Thanks,

Sean

--------------------
Celestron 80mm ED Apochromatic Refractor
Orion 8" Newt
Celestron 80ST achro (guider)
PHD via handcontroller interface
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Canon 350D
Philips SPC900NC
http://www.flickr.com/photos/derbysluggers/sets/72157605255114566/



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Rankinstudio
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Buhlig]
      #3400937 - 10/20/09 07:57 PM Attachment (48 downloads)

Be better if you uploaded the .tiff

1 minute adjustment in photoshop

Ran it through Gradient X Terminator

Curves Adjustment

Color Balance



--------------------
David Rankin
http://www.rankinstudio.com
Astro Gallery
Orion 254mm F4.7 (imaging scope)
Baader MPCC
Quickcam pro 9000 (guider, imager)
Canon Rebel XSi (self modified)
Atlas EQ-G (EQ MOD)
Canon 50mm F1.8 II Lens
Canon 28-200 F3.2 Lens
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Nils_Lars
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Rankinstudio]
      #3401176 - 10/20/09 10:14 PM

Ya we need a crack at the Tiff Stack to really do it justice but I have seen people do great things with Photoshop or Iris or Pixinsight along with other programs I think it just depends on the difficulty level and how much you want to spend.

--------------------
Erik

Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/


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Buhlig
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Nils_Lars]
      #3402237 - 10/21/09 01:47 PM

a'right...I'll post the .tiff tonight. It doesn't seem quite "red" enough, but I definitely like the gradient reduction. Looks like it lost a little detail, hard to tell from the small size. Do you guys want a raw stack out of neb? That is, unstretched full spectrum?

FWIW, I've tried IRIS and had a really difficult time with the stretch in IRIS (asinh)...finally just gave up. The registration is nice in IRIS though. Neb seems to have a much finer means of stretching and scaling...but I could be just missing the IRIS boat I suppose.

Sean

--------------------
Celestron 80mm ED Apochromatic Refractor
Orion 8" Newt
Celestron 80ST achro (guider)
PHD via handcontroller interface
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Canon 350D
Philips SPC900NC
http://www.flickr.com/photos/derbysluggers/sets/72157605255114566/



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Ion01
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Buhlig]
      #3402294 - 10/21/09 02:22 PM Attachment (33 downloads)

Here is one with a little work on the JPG. I am sure we could get a ton more with the tiff as you obviously picked up a lot of information in your image! This is an incredible shot!

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Buhlig
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Ion01]
      #3402971 - 10/21/09 07:55 PM

apparently, flickr converts .tiff uploads to .jpg, urrggh!...how can I get you guys the .tiff file?

Sean

--------------------
Celestron 80mm ED Apochromatic Refractor
Orion 8" Newt
Celestron 80ST achro (guider)
PHD via handcontroller interface
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Canon 350D
Philips SPC900NC
http://www.flickr.com/photos/derbysluggers/sets/72157605255114566/



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Samir Kharusi
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Buhlig]
      #3403353 - 10/21/09 11:13 PM

Transfer big files

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Psyire
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Samir Kharusi]
      #3403426 - 10/21/09 11:46 PM

Make sure the .tif is just a stacked version, not one that has been post processed with an image editor. (that will make a difference too)

--------------------
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com




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Buhlig
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Psyire]
      #3404842 - 10/22/09 07:15 PM

ok...here it is M33HIRES . It is stacked in Neb, nothing else. Darks and flats applied prior to color conversion. Thanks in advance. I very curious to see how it turns out. This is 15x5min subs with a 10" f/5 newt in pretty dark skies. Should have a ton of detail.

Sean

--------------------
Celestron 80mm ED Apochromatic Refractor
Orion 8" Newt
Celestron 80ST achro (guider)
PHD via handcontroller interface
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Canon 350D
Philips SPC900NC
http://www.flickr.com/photos/derbysluggers/sets/72157605255114566/



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John Miranda
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Buhlig]
      #3405219 - 10/22/09 10:37 PM

Ion101 - Your adjustments are wonderful.

Would you share the workflow/tools you applied in PS?

--------------------
John Miranda
www.johnmiranda.com


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Rankinstudio
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: John Miranda]
      #3405390 - 10/23/09 12:31 AM Attachment (15 downloads)

yea, playing with jpg's doesn't help much. Here is the tiff after I spent about 45 mins on it playing around. I have to compliment you on the capture, it is really good with tons of detail. Was a real pleasure working on it. Hope you like the results...

Full Res

http://www.slas.us/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2651&g2_imageViewsIndex=1


Opened the image, stretched it with curves, did a color balance adj. - used gradient X terminator - another curves adjust - another color adjust - reopened original image - layed it over and made a layer mask to bring back the bright areas - flattened image - increased saturation - pulled out a better exposure balance with the shadows/highlights tool (set final black point) - used Noel Carboni's "Deep space noise reduction" & "color blotch reduction" saved it out

--------------------
David Rankin
http://www.rankinstudio.com
Astro Gallery
Orion 254mm F4.7 (imaging scope)
Baader MPCC
Quickcam pro 9000 (guider, imager)
Canon Rebel XSi (self modified)
Atlas EQ-G (EQ MOD)
Canon 50mm F1.8 II Lens
Canon 28-200 F3.2 Lens
DSLR peltier cooler





Edited by Rankinstudio (10/23/09 02:08 PM)


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Nils_Lars
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: John Miranda]
      #3405420 - 10/23/09 12:50 AM

You have some super data here Buhlig its wasnt hard to get it look good and I could have done a few simple tweaks and been happy but I kind of went as far as I could just to see what I could get out of using Photoshop.

I guess I went a little bluer then David did but thats easy enough to fix , its all personal taste.



I kind did my standard routine of a run through Nebulosity for the DDP which was a little darker then my subs come out but I usually stack in DSS.

First ran a couple more curves and then I set black points in levels in each channel.

I ran GradX like they recommend on there web site and croped it down a bit.

Then reset black points again in each channel and then using curves and ctrl click on the darkest points and brightest points and then using arrow keys to adjust I was able to pull some detail up.

I did a high pass filter layer to sharpen then did a inverse mask as shown on the light buckets site with noise ninja and a color boost with match color.

--------------------
Erik

Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/

Edited by Nils_Lars (10/23/09 12:55 AM)


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justabob
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Nils_Lars]
      #3405482 - 10/23/09 01:48 AM

Great data!

cs3



--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all

Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II



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Psyire
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: justabob]
      #3405492 - 10/23/09 01:58 AM

Amazing Data! I spent about an hour on this process and had a lot of fun, thanks! 100% Photoshop...

Click for Higher Resolution:



--------------------
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com




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Samir Kharusi
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Psyire]
      #3405520 - 10/23/09 02:45 AM

Folks, I am most impressed by both the capture quality and the processed examples.

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jcham21
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Psyire]
      #3405526 - 10/23/09 02:54 AM

Here is my version done in PS CS2:



Larger: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p218/jcham21/m33_stack1.jpg

Curves
Noels Astronomy Tools

Took about 20 minutes. Very good data.

Thanks,

James

--------------------
James
Canon XTi
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II Camera Lens
Celestar 8
Main Astrophotography Gallery

Comet Lulin Gallery

How To Make a 6" F/15 Refractor


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Brane
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: jcham21]
      #3405762 - 10/23/09 08:26 AM Attachment (6 downloads)

Nice data.

High resolution ftp://ftp.hicsalta.si/incoming/astro/m33_stack-3-big.jpg

--------------------
http://www.rezman-obs.si

Edited by Brane (10/23/09 10:25 AM)


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Agnotio
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Brane]
      #3405971 - 10/23/09 10:45 AM

I really like Nils version, makes me consider getting Nebulosity. Although I think most of the work flow was in Photoshop, the high pass filter especially makes a difference. The only thing was maybe he could have pulled out more of the Ha nebulosity to made it redder.

--------------------
Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
EQ6 Pro with EQMOD
Canon 450D
Sky-Watcher 10" f/4.7 Dob


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xatamec
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Brane]
      #3406021 - 10/23/09 11:12 AM

I'll try to convince you that you don't need PS, but need PixInsight instead. Much cheaper and much more powerful and focussed for astrophotography works. I would have liked to process it from the very beginning though.

Steps:

Gradients elimination with Dynamic Background Extraction
Histogram stretch
Dynamyc range compression with HDRWavelets
Tiny noise reduction with GreyCRestoration
Color saturation with curves



Sergi

--------------------
My telescopes: WO Megrez 88FD APO and SW 200/1000
My mount: SW EQ6
My cameras: Cooled Canon 350D, QHY5
...and very little time to play with these toys!


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Tonk
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: xatamec]
      #3406069 - 10/23/09 11:37 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

Simple processin - Images Plus DDP, Gradient XT, Iterative curves stretch, LCE, NR, Colour sat

--------------------
Televue 85, GM-8/Gemini, Canon 40D (unmodded), Canon 450D (modded w/Astronomiks clip-ins - UV/IR, OWB)
Coronado SM60/BF10, Baader Herschel Wedge
Leeds Sky Clock Ripon Sky Clock


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Buhlig
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Tonk]
      #3406306 - 10/23/09 01:46 PM

Wow! I appreciate the effort all. I think collectively I can definitely see the benefit of Photoshop, now there's that issue about convincing the CFO..hmmm. The PixInsite interesting, I'll dig into that a little..it has a trial period I may try.

I understand that the color rendering in somewhat of a personal preference. I say "somewhat" because, in reality, there is a correct color, no? Nebula's can (and are) redet.al. I guess my real question is, what is the correct color rendition for M33? I've seen this topic brought up in other threads..and seemed the net outcome was, "do what you like"...but I'm a bit more interested in representing the picture as it exists in the real, and not so much into making it look pretty necessarily (I think they are already pretty). What is it's true rendering? I know this brings up the topic of the human eye (what colors we see), which isn't so important. Maybe, I'm asking (and rambling) what is the correct spectral representation? Like mapping narrowband H-alpha, OIII ,etc to RGB only without the underlying data? I may not be phrasing my question quite right..feel free to correct me.

Sean

P.S. I like the effect Pysire had, but they all are eyepopping gourgeous.

--------------------
Celestron 80mm ED Apochromatic Refractor
Orion 8" Newt
Celestron 80ST achro (guider)
PHD via handcontroller interface
CG-5 Advanced GT Mount
Canon 350D
Philips SPC900NC
http://www.flickr.com/photos/derbysluggers/sets/72157605255114566/



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Nils_Lars
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Buhlig]
      #3406541 - 10/23/09 03:45 PM

I agree actually Pysire has the one I like the best , I processed mine on my laptop and now that I look at it on a CRT mine looks too dim.

I would like to hear what the worklow was behind Pysires version if he doesnt mind sharing.

If I had it to do over I might have started by learning PixInsight from the begining but ive invested a good amount of time learning PS CS2 and im not sure I have the paitients to start over.

--------------------
Erik

Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/


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Joseph Gillman
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Nils_Lars]
      #3406713 - 10/23/09 05:06 PM

Wow lots of different images from the same source data, interesting lesson in possibilities and there is definitely no one correct approach!

Each is great in their own way and has their own "personality"

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Psyire
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Joseph Gillman]
      #3406796 - 10/23/09 05:53 PM

I posted this before in a different thread, but I'll put it here as well with some recent modifications.

My normal processing flow is something like this...

In Photoshop..

Use the Color sample tool to tag 4 points around the image in the darkest emptiest areas. Now you can watch your RGB values across your image when adjusting levels/curves.

3-4 Curves to bring the skybackground to levels around 80-100. These curves are almost always 1 point @ Output 190, Input 128 on the 'curve line'.

Levels to set black point so sky background is around 30-40.
(adjust left slider towards data on histogram)

Levels to adjust the middle slider to color balance the RGB values. (each color separate and watch your point values you set in step 1)

Star Reduction to about 75-80% (using http://astroanarchy.blogspot.com/search/label/PS-actions)

Curves, set a point at the sky background and stretch the higher end to a desired level. If you are worried about blowing out a galaxy core or other bright area then deselect the core with a high 'feather value' to help supress the 'blowout'.

If you end up having to stretch far enough that you can't get you background levels down to 30-40 without clipping data from your object then what I do is this.. Select a small area of background that contains little to no stars. Copy and paste as new image, then gaussian blur to create a smooth color. Select this color with the eyedropper, then go back to your original image and duplicate it. Now select all and delete the image(in the duplicate), then use the paint bucket to fill the entire image with the color you selected. Now go back to your original image and 'apply image' using your solid color image and 'subtract' mode. This will darken your sky background once again without destroying any nebulosity. This can also be an effective tool for removing a light pollution 'glow'. Now you can also run another set of curves if needed to being out even more faint stuff.

One thing I strive for is to get a smooth transition from the object to the background so nothing looks 'clipped'. I never use eyedroppers in the levels tool to set black/white/grey points as I find this almost always clips data. I'd much rather use the above method to eliminate as much background lightening as I wish after stretching.. The more subs in an image the easier this goal is to obtain I find. 30+ subs I find is very nice at creating a background that's easy to work with, at least with my 450D.

Possible Gradient Removal using GradientXterminator. (http://www.rc-astro.com/resources/GradientXTerminator/)

High Pass Filter using a Layer mask to bring out the dust lanes to a desired level. Careful not to halo the stars near and in dust lanes. (use eraser tool if necessary)

Possibly increase color saturation depending on the DSO imaged. This is done using the LAB mode method and which allows for a gaussian blur on the color data only to help with noise reduction.

I also sharpen the lumenance in LAB mode with a unsharp mask or smart sharpen.

Select Background and run a Deep Space Noise Reduction. (http://actions.home.att.net/Astronomy_Tools.html)

Run a light pass of Noise Ninja to remove any overall noise.

Then usually just a small unsharp mask over the entire image.

Of course, this isn't set in stone and sometimes these steps are mixed up a bit. Or perhaps there is more masking or selective curves based on bright or dark area's.

With the above image I increased just the blue channel with a curve in order to get a desired look as I thought the original color balance was too green. I also did one other thing that I don't normally do or like to do, and that was I changed the hue on the magenta color in order to get the yellowish glow from the center of the galaxy. I really don't like changing color hues but for some reason I ended up with a weird magenta tone throughout the center of this galaxy. I also selected the reddish area's through the galaxy with a slight feather value and increased the red coloration through the saturation adjustment tool. In order to help pop them out from the spiral arms.

I think that's about it... lol

--------------------
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com




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Tonk
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Psyire]
      #3406923 - 10/23/09 07:21 PM

Very good write up Psyire - and I do 90% of what you do - but my only critisism of your beautiful image processing is its too blue shifted :gtin: - then i read this

Quote:

With the above image I increased just the blue channel with a curve in order to get a desired look




Phew - I thought I had somehow lost the blue data in my processing . I have no problems with "looks" but it had me searching .

Its actually a pretty white galaxy on the whole with touches of orange from older stars in the regions between the arms and scatterings of pink from emmission nebulae. See here for a good rendering http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080913.html

--------------------
Televue 85, GM-8/Gemini, Canon 40D (unmodded), Canon 450D (modded w/Astronomiks clip-ins - UV/IR, OWB)
Coronado SM60/BF10, Baader Herschel Wedge
Leeds Sky Clock Ripon Sky Clock


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TrevorW
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Tonk]
      #3406985 - 10/23/09 08:01 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

I worked this one in PS from a jpeg file posted above

your free downloads for the TIFF file has reached it's limit

Cheers

--------------------
GSO 8" RC, Stellarvue Nighthawk 80mm/f7 ED, Stellarvue 10x60 finder, Pentax K100d DSLR (unmod), Canon 350D DSLR (modified), EQ6 Pro mount. Orion Autoguider, numerous other bits and pieces

www.pbase.com/trevrw/astro

Edited by TrevorW (10/23/09 08:04 PM)


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Psyire
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Tonk]
      #3407248 - 10/23/09 10:39 PM

Quote:

Its actually a pretty white galaxy on the whole with touches of orange from older stars in the regions between the arms and scatterings of pink from emmission nebulae. See here for a good rendering http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080913.html




Hey Tonk, thanks for the compliments. Color balancing images definately isn't my strong point, so I've settled on going after what looks pleasing to my eye. I wish I could find a way to accurately G2V balance my dslr shots, the processes I've read are particularily confusing.

--------------------
Celestron CPC 1100 XLT, Sky-Watcher Equinox 80ED
TV 31T5-Nagler, 8&13mm-Ethos
EarthWin Binoviewers w/ 24mm Panoptics
Elusive Photons.com




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justabob
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Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Psyire]
      #3407526 - 10/24/09 01:20 AM

Sean it is a real pleasure to work with such good thick data, you must have great skies. Well to further muddy the water I ran it through maxim dl digital development and finished it in iris, no ps at all. I like photoshop because of all the thrid party actions that are available and the excellent layer masking capabilities. But it's not the only game in town.



--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/rkn/astro&page=all

Vixen Sphinx SXW
Meade sn6
Canon EF 200mm f/2.8L II USM Lens
Hutech 1000d
Self modded 350d
ST8300c on order
DSI PRO II



Bob



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Nils_Lars
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Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 3447
Loc: Santa Cruz Mountains , CA
Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: justabob]
      #3407548 - 10/24/09 01:40 AM

Everyone did an great job with there processing for sure but most of all Sean did for doing the excellent job of capturing.

It just goes to show that all the time spent driving someplace and setting up , focusing , framing , shooting , freezing , guiding , having any number of issues and then putting it all away and going home at some indecent hour is really the easy part

Thanks again Psyire for the excellent write up , im gonna use that info for sure.

--------------------
Erik

Orion Atlas Self Hypertuned (EQMOD)
Orion ED 80
Williams Optics VII reducer
Celestron 8" SCT
Orion Starshoot Autoguider
PHD guide
Canon 400D Hap Griffin Mod w/Baader filter
Astronomik clip-in LP filter and 12nm Ha
Stilleto CVF and Bahtinov mask
Tamron 75-300mm&28-80mm lenses
NexImage webcam

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31986095@N05/

Edited by Nils_Lars (10/24/09 01:41 AM)


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xatamec
member


Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 53
Loc: Catalonia, Spain
Re: Convince me I need Photoshop - M33 new [Re: Nils_Lars]
      #3407859 - 10/24/09 10:03 AM

Men, I did a horrible processing yesterday... I was working at the office and the monitor there is horrible. Today from my laptop at home I could do it a bit better:



The processing steps were the same than yesterday, but with less agressive paremeters.
I did it with PixInsight. I don't recommend you to try the free trial (just one month) if you don't learn a bit about its interface and processes, otherwise you will get lost and will hate the program.
Fortunately, instead of reading tons of tough documentation, there are some videotutorial available that will help you a lot to know how Pixinsight works.
Firstly I recommend you take a look at the Harry Page videotutorials: http://www.harrysastroshed.com/pixinsighthome.html

Then you can go to the program official page, www.pixinsight.com, and watch the official videotutorials and the many processing examples available there.

Hope it helps you.

Sergi

--------------------
My telescopes: WO Megrez 88FD APO and SW 200/1000
My mount: SW EQ6
My cameras: Cooled Canon 350D, QHY5
...and very little time to play with these toys!


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