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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

What is the issue with my flats?
#5657989 - 02/02/13 11:51 AM Attachment (31 downloads)

I'm trying to get some better flats, and I have an odd result no matter what I try.

With my 50mm lens, I've used t-shirt method with overcast sky, double white paper, white LCD computer screen and t-shirt, computer screen and paper. But, I always get these strange vertical "ripples". Initially I thought the t-shrits had wrinkles, hence the paper tests. But I get the same result.

I've looked at other people's flats, and do not see anything quite like it. Is there some kind of issue with my method, or maybe the camera? Thought this was a bit strange...

Here is low quality jpg of one that I quickly stretched.

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Skyshooter
professor emeritus

Reged: 04/07/08

Loc: S. Utah, U.S.A.

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658009 - 02/02/13 12:01 PM

Looks to me like uneven illumination caused by the lamp on the LCD display on a laptop. Have you tried twilight flats? A quick shot of an evenly illuminated blue sky will tell you if it's a sensor problem or not.

Good Luck,
Ed

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Skyshooter]
#5658019 - 02/02/13 12:08 PM

That's what I tried initially, but I got a noticeable gradient from uneven illumination of the sunlight. I think the 50mm is just too wide.

If there's something wrong with the sensor I need to decide asap... my 14-day return period to KEH will run out in a few days.

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658035 - 02/02/13 12:19 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Okay, another test method. This has to be the camera... I wish I had another lens to test. The other ones are all Nikon for our day-use camera.

I took a photo of overcast sky at f/22 while moving the camera side to side. Ripples still there.

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Tonk
Postmaster

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658064 - 02/02/13 12:44 PM

How long are these exposures - can you show us the histogram?

Until I see the info it is looking to me like you are grossly under exposing these and the banding is coming up after stretching from the underlying bias pattern that all sensors have

Are you also shooting flat darks (darks for the flats). Without these included in the calibration the bias pattern issue will remain regardless of correct flat exposure

Can I suggest using AV mode to measure the correct exposure length and then switching to manual and dial the required exposure in. Then its easy to rattle off flats and then flat darks

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zerro1
Postmaster

Reged: 08/02/09

Loc: Smokey Point , 48.12°N 122.25°...

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658067 - 02/02/13 12:44 PM

the features look to be in the same locations. this would be virtually impossible to replicate using paper for one and using a T-shirt for another.

try a flat without a lens?

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: zerro1]
#5658076 - 02/02/13 12:47 PM

This is indeed AV mode. The histogram is very close to 0.0 peak in GIMP. I will attempt some with no lens.

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658104 - 02/02/13 12:56 PM Attachment (16 downloads)

Here is a quick and dirty version - AV mode, no lens, light of white LCD diffused through two layers of white paper. I was forced to clip the black a bit because the peak is really spread out. It's not perfect, but you can still see those ripples.

I'm thinking I should return this body, if nothing else than for piece of mind. Flats could potentially take this effect out of my images, but this cannot be normal behavior of the sensor...

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zerro1
Postmaster

Reged: 08/02/09

Loc: Smokey Point , 48.12°N 122.25°...

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658115 - 02/02/13 01:05 PM

Quote:

This is indeed AV mode. The histogram is very close to 0.0 peak in GIMP. I will attempt some with no lens.

How AV mode "exposes" is adjustable... you can increase the exposure of AV mode. (On my older Canon 1000D) you press the AV button on back of camera wich toggles the scale, then adjust up or down by using the "wheel". Not familiar with newer models so it may be different. I usually have mine set just under 1/2 of the scale

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Sean13
sage

Reged: 11/17/12

Loc: North Platte, Nebraska

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658120 - 02/02/13 01:08 PM

It still looks under exposed to me. How far away from the lens/body are you holding your paper or computer screen?

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Sean13]
#5658124 - 02/02/13 01:11 PM Attachment (11 downloads)

From DPP using the raw image - this one with no lens actually looks overexposed. The others were right at 0.0.

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658131 - 02/02/13 01:15 PM Attachment (14 downloads)

Here's a histogram from one of the flats taken with a lens, facing the overcast sky, with double-layer t-shirt fabric over the lens shield, focused to infinity, AV mode, ISO 100.

Edited by hoa101 (02/02/13 01:15 PM)

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658318 - 02/02/13 03:08 PM

Thanks for the help guys.

I just sent it back. Not worth the worry, and I can get a full refund. If something is really wrong, bullet-dodged. If not, then oh well, I am only out the cost of shipping.

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Tonk
Postmaster

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658429 - 02/02/13 04:12 PM

Your flat with no lens just looks totally wrong - why is the whole thing eliptical???

It looks like the light source is off axis and/or your paper sheets were tilted

Flats taken though a good optical system should have a circular gradient

Can we have a photo of your rig when taking these flats?

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Sean13
sage

Reged: 11/17/12

Loc: North Platte, Nebraska

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658430 - 02/02/13 04:13 PM

Yea I would tend to agree, best just to send it back and replace it. That is a really strange effect.

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nganga
member

Reged: 03/16/08

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658442 - 02/02/13 04:26 PM

Quote:

I'm trying to get some better flats, and I have an odd result no matter what I try.

With my 50mm lens, I've used t-shirt method with overcast sky, double white paper, white LCD computer screen and t-shirt, computer screen and paper. But, I always get these strange vertical "ripples". Initially I thought the t-shrits had wrinkles, hence the paper tests. But I get the same result.

I've looked at other people's flats, and do not see anything quite like it. Is there some kind of issue with my method, or maybe the camera? Thought this was a bit strange...

Here is low quality jpg of one that I quickly stretched.

I wonder if you are not seeing a shutter artifact? Before you return anything, try increasing the exposure. Either add one or 2 stops to the exposure compensation if you want to use AV mode, or use manual exposure, again adding one stop or 2 to the autoexposure reading.

Clem

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: nganga]
#5658529 - 02/02/13 05:09 PM

The ellipse was because I have no way to evenly expose a flat with no lens. It's snowing outside, so I covered it with paper and fired away at the computer screen.

I did think of the exposure length issue. I tried everything from 1/400s to multiple seconds, no change.

Anyway, it's moot now. Camera is going back. I'll buy a new one instead that has a warranty. Amazon has them with the kit lens for $400.

Thanks all for the help.

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Toxic Coolaid
sage

Reged: 10/01/11

Loc: NotrhEast Tennessee

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5658547 - 02/02/13 05:20 PM

Cover it with a sheet of paper, go outside and shoot up, with or without a lens. You cant ask for a more even light source

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Tonk
Postmaster

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Toxic Coolaid]
#5658587 - 02/02/13 05:43 PM

Quote:

The ellipse was because I have no way to evenly expose a flat with no lens. It's snowing outside, so I covered it with paper and fired away at the computer screen.

Which is a bad way to expose flats. Don't be supprised if the next camera does the same

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Sean13
sage

Reged: 11/17/12

Loc: North Platte, Nebraska

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Tonk]
#5658675 - 02/02/13 06:22 PM

I see also that your taking your flats at f/22 in the pic up there. I could be wrong but I'd think you want the largest aperture you can get.

I shoot my flats thru the scope at f/6.3, ISO 100, with an LED Laptop screen full brightness white background virtually touching the end of the scope. I don't use paper or anything to difuse it, as the focus does that pretty well for me and an LED is already evenly illuminated. My shutter speed escapes me at the moment, but this will vary for you as well based on how bright your light source is and your f/stop.

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Tonk
Postmaster

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Sean13]
#5658752 - 02/02/13 07:18 PM

The essential feature of flats is you change nothing - focus, apperture, lens elements or camera orientation on scope must not be changed

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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Tonk]
#5658763 - 02/02/13 07:24 PM

> The essential feature of flats is you change nothing -

Which I still haven't come to terms with. If I am shooting 4 basic sets a night of a target, (2) sets 0 and 90 degrees rotated before and after the meridian, the only way to get good flats would be to have a robotic thing which flips an illuminated panel in front of and out of the way of the refractor.

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Tonk
Postmaster

Reged: 08/19/04

Loc: Leeds, UK, 54N

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Mike Clemens]
#5658774 - 02/02/13 07:37 PM

Meridian flips do not change camera-to-scope orientation

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Mike Clemens
Frozen to Eyepiece

Reged: 11/26/05

Loc: Alaska, USA

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Tonk]
#5658789 - 02/02/13 07:43 PM

Even on a 2 meter long 80 pound refractor with a 12 pound focuser hanging 4 feet away from the mount? My pointing correction terms sure feel it.

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pfile
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 06/14/09

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Mike Clemens]
#5659023 - 02/02/13 10:25 PM

well then your sensor is no longer square with the optical path, so forget about flats... that's a bigger problem.

but are you actually rotating the camera? like loosening it and rotating it and retightening it? in that case you do need new flats. there are in fact robotic flat things like you just described - the flatman is one.

if you never change the position angle of the camera then one set of flats is fine.

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avarakin
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 07/13/09

Loc: Parsippany NJ, USA

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: pfile]
#5659176 - 02/03/13 12:12 AM

Something is horribly wrong with those flats. I see a lot of noise. Looks like they were taken at very high ISO. Another theory is that the software which was used for opening the flats was trying to do some kind of auto exposure, and given that flats are, well flat, it amplified all possible imperfections of the image. Honestly I doubt that this is issue with camera.

Alex

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pfile
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 06/14/09

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: avarakin]
#5659204 - 02/03/13 12:38 AM

i think he stretched the flats just so you can see the vignetting and the patterns.

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avarakin
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 07/13/09

Loc: Parsippany NJ, USA

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: pfile]
#5659275 - 02/03/13 01:54 AM

I hope he realize that :-)

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bluedandelion
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/17/07

Loc: Hazy Hollow, Western WA

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: avarakin]
#5659685 - 02/03/13 10:32 AM

I have seen this before myself. Before I built an ELP based lightbox, I would use our large flat screen TV to take flats. I would take the flats the day after imaging. Now some may say that should not be done, but I did not move the camera or the focus. Only the scope did get moved from my back yard to the house. The flats worked fine.

Saw this with my C9.25. In my case it was uneven illumination. Stretching a T-shirt across the dewshield solved the problem. Although I agree that exposure is possibly also the answer here. If you stretch an unevenly lit field the effect of uneven illumination becomes pronounced.

Ajay

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: bluedandelion]
#5673693 - 02/11/13 09:37 AM

UPDATE:

I wanted to update you guys, since alot of people were attempting to help.

My (brand new) Canon T3 arrived, and I tested it on Saturday. The issue I observed with the flats on the used body is completely gone. Since I did not change methodology, the sensor on the used one must have been the issue.

I can only speculate that maybe it was cleaned improperly. Or I suppose that banding could be a defect in the sensor itself, which would be worse.

In any case, I'm glad I returned it. Problem solved.

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pfile
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 06/14/09

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: hoa101]
#5674119 - 02/11/13 01:57 PM

cool, that's good news. it's hard enough taking good flats without the camera messing things up for you!

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Alex McConahay
Carpal Tunnel

Reged: 08/11/08

Loc: Moreno Valley, CA

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Sean13]
#5674145 - 02/11/13 02:20 PM

>>>>>I could be wrong but I'd think you want the largest aperture you can get.

You want your flats at the same aperture (and focal length) as your lights for that evening. That is the only way to assure you are getting the same level of vignetting, the same shape of the light cone, etc.

And that is not answering the question regarding the pattern in the sensor.

My question would be--how much ADU (or whatever) is there between the dark part and the light. It is possilbe, if you stretch just right, to make anything look real bad. If it is just a couple of levels off (out of 65 k) you can see it if you stretch just right.

Alex

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hoa101
super member

Reged: 02/04/12

Loc: Northern Virginia

Re: What is the issue with my flats? new

[Re: Alex McConahay]
#5676672 - 02/12/13 10:01 PM

Pretty sure you want flats to not only be the same aperture, but also the same focus. Since I was taking astrophotos with a camera and lens only, this is not difficult. People with cameras attached to scopes have to worry about orientation and whatnot as well.

People discussing use of the highest aperture - that is actually a common test daytime photographers use to check for dust on the sensor. You go to f/22, point at a uniformly illuminated source, ISO 100, and take a couple exposures. Any dust in there will be completely obvious.

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