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Astrophotography and Sketching >> DSLR & Digital Camera Astro Imaging & Processing

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mmalik
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Learning ImagesPlus
      #5912422 - 06/10/13 03:20 AM Attachment (19 downloads)

In keeping with the tradition..., let's have a discussion in learning ImagesPlus at a deeper level. To kick off... what's qualitative and quantitative (in terms of slider movement) difference between 'Color Emphasis' and 'Decompress Color' in ImagesPlus 5.0 and 5.5, respectively? What does 0.500 default mean in comparison to 'Off' default? I notice colors are quite accentuated in 5.5 under default settings.

Related discussion here....

Note: Default settings are shown (these are sub-settings under Stretch | Digital Development menu).


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5913174 - 06/10/13 02:01 PM Attachment (5 downloads)

Excellent question Mike M.

First of all stretch functions used in astro imaging compress color because of their aggressive stretch curves.

Digital development is a popular initial stretch function used by many different astro imaging apps and it also compresses color when applied to a color image. K. Okano invented digital development back in the mid 1990s and noticed the color compression problem. The color emphasis controls in ImagesPlus 5.0 and earlier digital development is the exact method proposed by K. Okano to offset color compression when he first described and developed digital development.

Okano's color emphasis method does indeed introduce color into the compressed digital development stretched image. But the problem with the original digital development color emphasis is that it is not predictable and easily controlled.

Color decompression in ImagesPlus 5.5 is my solution to color compression and is very different than Okano's color emphasis. ImagesPlus 5.5 color decompression preserves color present in the image as the image is stretched and does not introduce new color that is not present in the image. Color decompression also helps to minimize star size and maintain color and contrast in bright areas of the image. ImagesPlus 5.5 color decompression is easy to control and is predictable. ImagesPlus 5.5 has two initial stretch functions, digital development and ArcSinH, with the same HDR scale and color decompression control. Digital development just uses a different stretch curve than ArcSinH. The digital development stretch curves fits some images better than the ArcSinH curve so I would try both then go with the one that gives you the best initial stretch.

The default color decompression value of 0.500 is used with both digital development and ARcSinH and was chosen since it produces a mild color decompression with most stacked but otherwise unprocessed astro images.

Mike M. lets look at an example using your Horse Head image.

First here is grayscale test image that can be used to calibrate your monitor. Make sure you can see all of the different black, gray, and white levels on your monitor otherwise the images that follow may appear to dark or light.

http://www.myastronomyjournal.com/DSLR-AIP/Monitor-Calibration-Image.gif

1) Initial ArcSinH stretch of the Horse Head image with HDR scale and color decompression.

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/MM-HH-Stretch.jpg

If you prefer less color then move the color decompression sliders towards the left. More red then move the red slider towards the right. Same ArcSinH stretch and HDR scale but color decompression turned off by moving the red, green, and blue sliders all the way to the left.

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/MM-HH-StretchNoColorDecomp.jpg

Note that without color decompression star are larger and pretty much have no color. Red and blue color is subdued with low saturation. Less detail in the bright blue area at the bottom of the image.


2) Curves used with soft light blend mode to enhance color and contrast slightly

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/MM-HH-Curves.jpg

Horese Head after the above 2 steps

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/CR_SCOMBINEFILESAVG.jpg

At this point you could further smooth the image but you will loose real detail and replace it with smooth artifacts. I would suggest adding more exposure time to smooth the image then apply the same two steps above to get a smooth image with lots of real detail. Deconvolution can then be used in an effective way to sharpen and enhance the detail.

Mike U.


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5915960 - 06/11/13 10:18 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Quote:

The default color decompression value of 0.500 is used with both digital development and ARcSinH and was chosen since it produces a mild color decompression with most stacked but otherwise unprocessed astro images.




Thanks for the detail response; very informative. 0.500 being the default on both, 'Digital Development' and ArcSinH, my initial thoughts are that this default setting might be bit aggressive; again just my take. I am basing this on the example you provide above and some experimentation I have done thus far. Not a big deal for experienced ones, I am just looking at it from a novice user perspective who may at first go with the defaults, that's all.

Let me ask you the same question in a different way... what would the equivalent settings (i.e., scale), regardless of the image, in ImagesPlus 5.5 in comparison to the 5.0 settings below:

Note: All are welcome to join and ask their questions, open discussion!


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5916764 - 06/12/13 11:33 AM

Mike M.

K. Okano's digital development color emphasis implemented in ImagesPlus 5.0 is very different than color decompression in ImagesPlus 5.5 digital development and ArcSinH.

Color decompression in digital development 5.5 completely replaces color emphasis digital development in IP 5.0. No relation between color emphasis and color decompression parameters.

Mike U.


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5918145 - 06/13/13 02:30 AM Attachment (10 downloads)

For comparison sake, below is a rendering of the same source data with 'Decompress Color' set to 0.000, and developed using ImagesPlus 5.5 'Digital Development'. This is to compare side-by-side the result produced above (#5913174). Thx

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5918147 - 06/13/13 02:32 AM Attachment (14 downloads)

While we are comparing color, here is another control test done using PixInsight. Thx

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5918160 - 06/13/13 02:49 AM Attachment (9 downloads)

And here is ImagesPlus 5.0 'Digital Development' result with 'Color Emphasis' set to what I show above (#5915960).

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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5918500 - 06/13/13 10:33 AM

Mike M.

If I apply only IP 5.5 DDP to your Horse Head I get

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/MM-HH-DDP.jpg

where the image on the left has color decompression turned off. The image on the right is the same DDP stretch but with color decompression set to R = 0.782, G = 0.50, and B = 0.274.

All of the last 3 examples that you posted have bloated stars with little or no color. Also H-alpha is red not orange salmon. You must be doing more than just an initial stretch.

For this image I prefer ArcSinH as shown above and at

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/MM-HH-DDP.jpg

since stars are smaller with color. Note the small blue star just to the left of the yellow star half way between the Horse Head and the blue nebula. Also the top right H-alpha area is red and the reflection nebula is blue with a trace of red in its lower right center. This is all done with just the ArcSinH stretch.

Mike U.


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5918509 - 06/13/13 10:41 AM

Mike M. Sorry for the typo in the second image link.
The post should read as follows :


If I apply only IP 5.5 DDP to your Horse Head I get

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/MM-HH-DDP.jpg

where the image on the left has color decompression turned off. The image on the right is the same DDP stretch but with color decompression set to R = 0.782, G = 0.50, and B = 0.274.

All of the last 3 examples that you posted have bloated stars with little or no color. Also H-alpha is red not orange salmon. You must be doing more than just an initial stretch.

For this image I prefer ArcSinH as shown above and at

http://www.mlunsold.com/LIP/CR_SCOMBINEFILESAVG.jpg

since stars are smaller with color. Note the small blue star just to the left of the yellow star half way between the Horse Head and the blue nebula. Also the top right H-alpha area is red and the reflection nebula is blue with a trace of red in its lower right center. This is all done with just the ArcSinH stretch.

Mike U.


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5919353 - 06/13/13 07:08 PM

Quote:

All of the last 3 examples that you posted have bloated stars with little or no color. Also H-alpha is red not orange salmon. You must be doing more than just an initial stretch.



This image may not be a good example of star color per se, but it seems like a decent example of background nebulosity, color saturation and widespread hue. Despite all my efforts, I am not able to come to terms with what I get with ‘Decompress Color’ defaults and/or the parameters being proposed. I wonder what other folks’ experiences are with the new color routine. Regards


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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5919914 - 06/14/13 01:59 AM

FWIW, I've been using primarily the decompress color with DDP stretches (some ArcSinH stretches, too, but mostly DDP). I've been thrilled with what an excellent intitial stretch I can achieve while retaining good, natural color. With older versions of IP, I would do a DDP stretch and then later have to resaturate the image to bring color back into it. The decompress color function let's me start with a nicely saturated, well stretched image - it makes for much easier processing.

Thank you so much Mike Unsold for your ingenious solution to the color desaturation problem.


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austin.grant
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: srosenfraz]
      #5920390 - 06/14/13 11:16 AM

Mike U. - The stars in that ArcSinH example are indeed more colorful, but it looks really unnatural. They seem to have a crescent of color, and it looks more like a weird CA than a natural color. Hard to tell if it was caused by the color preservation or the star shrinking, but I don't think it's the desirable outcome.

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5920639 - 06/14/13 01:56 PM Attachment (3 downloads)

Quote:

The image on the right is the same DDP stretch but with color decompression set to R = 0.782, G = 0.50, and B = 0.274.




Only way I can get some semblance of normality is if I use something like following for 'Decompress Color' [in DDP]...

R=0.202
G=0.202
B=0.098


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5920642 - 06/14/13 01:56 PM Attachment (6 downloads)

...and the result:

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5920656 - 06/14/13 02:02 PM

If folks would like to try the same data, combined/RAW ImagesPlus CR_COMBINEFILESAVG.FIT is located here....

Note: It is the first file on the left.


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: austin.grant]
      #5920660 - 06/14/13 02:04 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Hi Austin,

The crescent of color shown in the bright blue stars and also some of the brighter yellow stars are in the stacked initial image shown below. Initial blue star on left and the same star after ArcSinH stretch shown on right.

No star shrinking was done. ArcSinH just preserved the color present in the blue crescent. You can adjust the red, green, and blue compression continuously to reduce, increase, or remove the blue crescent completely. But as shown below the blue crescent is in the stacked image before ArcSinH and should also be present after the stretch.

Mike


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5920695 - 06/14/13 02:19 PM

Mike M.

The R,G,and B color decompression sliders are intended to be adjust for each image and also personal taste. Your color decomp parameters

R=0.202, G=0.202, B=0.098

are fine but the blue value does wipe out the blue crescent on the brighter large blue stars present in your stacked image before it is stretched.

Your H-alpha is an accurate red and not the salmon orange color.

Mike U.


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5921068 - 06/14/13 06:49 PM

Quote:

The R,G,and B color decompression sliders are intended to be adjust for each image and also personal taste.




While we all fully understand the personal taste and highly customized nature of AP processing, my initial thoughts are as follows regarding the new 'Decompress Color'; again this is just my take and is intended to provide you some honest feedback of the product, NOT a critique!

1. First and foremost, the default 0.500 is very aggressive in my opinion; at times I am 'take the defaults' kind of person and this value is pretty much a spoiler for me to say the least.

2. While preferences, as I have stated above, will vary from person to person, they should vary within reasonable limits for most AP astronomers; I am completely lost on the logic behind the two color compression settings you have tried/suggested above:

For ArcSinH:
R=1.404
G=0.500
B=1.164

For DDP:
R=0.782
G=0.500
B=0.274

Reason I could think of for this discrepancy might be that you may have been focusing too much on the star color (which is somewhat non-existent in this image) while I have been focusing on the diffuse background nebulosity and general look and feel, and contrast of the whole image.

3. Not that I was a big fan of ‘Color Emphasis' routine, I have yet to develop a comfort level (in terms of end result) for 'Decompress Color' routine. I am wondering if any thought was given to keeping 'Color Emphasis' as an option. I hope in time I'll start appreciating the new routine more than the old one.

4. A question, what color routine PixInsight uses? Reason I ask this since all renderings of the same data in PixInsight end up rustic looking... by most imagers (which I know is the not the correct color but can be pleasing to the eye at times)

5. Without turning this discussion into a comparison of PixInsight or ImagesPlus, just something I have noticed on this image is that I see the most contrast in PixInsight, followed by the most contrast in ImagesPlus 5.0 and then ImagesPlus 5.5 and it shows in my renderings in this thread. This is not a concern, rather something I have noticed that I am not getting as much out of 5.5 [using DDP that is].

6. Last but not least, would you consider setting the color decompression defaults to something that could be used out of the box; current defaults are simply too aggressive [for both DDP and ArcSinH].

Hope this analysis doesn’t come as a critique, just a learning effort. Regards


Note: I have not tried to pull color out of some crescents around stars since they seem more like chromatic aberrations from not being high in sky, and is not the star color in essence. I'll try providing some better examples of star color than this particular image.


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5921246 - 06/14/13 09:04 PM Attachment (4 downloads)

Mike M.

1) No matter what the default values are set at there will be images where the default values are too low and other images where the values are too high. This is why there are adjustable with sliders.


2) DDP and ArcSinH are very different stretch curves and the color decompress parameters are also different.

3) Okano's color emphasis is just too unpredictable and is also too heavy handed to keep.


5) Are you comparing the DDP or ArcSinH stretch function result with no other functions applied to the PI Image that results from a string of several operations?

6) No matter what the default values are set at there will be images where the default values are too low and other images where the values are too high. This is why there are adjustable with sliders.

And the Last Question :
"Note: I have not tried to pull color out of some crescents around stars since they seem more like chromatic aberrations from not being high in sky, and is not the star color in essence."

Mike M if you check your stacked but otherwise unprocessed image you will find the color crescents recorded by your camera. The whole point of color decompression is to maintain color present in the image before the stretch which both DDP and ArcSinH are doing. Check the before and after of the same star shown below.

If you check several image from NASA you will find that those stars with little blue crescents in both the unstretched and stretched version of your Horse Head really are blue.


Mike M. I have a question for you.

Why do you stack your images using average ?

Mike


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: srosenfraz]
      #5921262 - 06/14/13 09:15 PM

"
FWIW, I've been using primarily the decompress color with DDP stretches (some ArcSinH stretches, too, but mostly DDP). I've been thrilled with what an excellent intitial stretch I can achieve while retaining good, natural color. With older versions of IP, I would do a DDP stretch and then later have to resaturate the image to bring color back into it. The decompress color function let's me start with a nicely saturated, well stretched image - it makes for much easier processing.

Thank you so much Mike Unsold for your ingenious solution to the color desaturation problem.
"

Thank you Scott.

Mike U.


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #5924775 - 06/17/13 01:51 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

Quote:

Why do you stack your images using average?




Simple answer would be the defaults in ImagesPlus; I normally use INCR, hence the 'Min Max Excluded Average' default of 'Automatic Processing...' routine doesn't come into play. I just end up staking ICNR RAWs with 'Combine Files...' default of 'Average'. I think there is a lesson here for all of us, program defaults DO matter. Are you implying 'Average' is NOT a good option for manually combining ICNR images?


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5926768 - 06/18/13 01:59 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

My feel is that a very conservative decompress color is the way to go in 5.5. Note: Image in the next post was stacked from scratch using 'Min Max Excluded Average' of automatic processing.

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5926773 - 06/18/13 02:04 AM Attachment (11 downloads)

... and the result (5.5):

Edited by mmalik (06/20/13 12:48 AM)


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5930456 - 06/20/13 12:55 AM Attachment (5 downloads)

For comparative analysis, below is an image that was processed using 5.0 'Color Emphasis' [all the other [processing being identical]. Note: Image in the next post was stacked from scratch using 'Min Max Excluded Average' of automatic processing.

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #5930457 - 06/20/13 12:55 AM Attachment (8 downloads)

... and the result (5.0):

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6121749 - 10/07/13 05:25 AM Attachment (4 downloads)

Is there a way to save certain settings/parameters for processing in ImagesPlus; in other words can settings be scripted in certain way. For example, say I wanted to save following ArcSinH settings so I could readily use it again, can it be done? Thx

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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6121885 - 10/07/13 08:46 AM

Hi Mike,

Yes you can save ArcsinH parameters or the parameters of any other filter in ImagesPlus for future use in a project file. Actually you can save a sequence of filter and copy them to a new image and apply the sequence as is or edit the sequence then apply to the new image. A sequence of filters can also be applied to a set of images using the Image Set Operations | Filter Files tool.

All of the capability for tracking and saving filter parameters is contained in the Process History window (15th bottom from the right on the top horizontal toolbar) that is maintained for each open image in ImagesPlus. The Save As button on the Process History is used to save an image with its filter sequence including mask, blend mode, and opacity used with each filter in a project file. The File | Load option is used to restore an image and its filter sequence with masks, blend modes, and opacity.

For a given open image left-click on one or more filters shown in the top right operation list of the Process History window then right-click on the selection to select cut, copy, or paste options. If you select copy then you can go to a different open image and right click on its operation list at a given selection in the list and select paste. Now all of the filters with masks, blend, and opacity are inserted into the process list of the second image. To apply all of the new filters to the second image double click on the filter before the point where all of the new filters were inserted then press the Reprocess | All Commands or Next Command button on the Process History Window.

This is all covered by video tutorials in the Basic Operation folder of the ImagesPlus install CD.


A quick guide to filter parameter tracking is at

http://www.mlunsold.com/process/IP5/PHQG/PHistoryQuickGuide.html

Several tutorials that cover using the Process History filter list with masks, blend modes, and layers are posted at the main tutorial page

http://www.mlunsold.com/ILProcessing.html

Look for this section near the top of the above main tutorial webpage.


32 Bit Floating Point Layers with Blending Modes, Opacity, & Masks - New With ImagePlus 5.0


Process History Unlimited Undo & Redo Layers with Blend Modes, Opacity, & Masks
Quick Guide to Process History Layers - Insert, Modify, Copy, Paste, Delete, Save, and Load Project Files
Process History Unlimited Undo & Redo
Sample Project File - Automated Processing of NGC 7635 Narrow Band 4 Color Palette
Blending Modes & Opacity
Control Point & Image Masks
Using Control Point Masks
1 - Basic Steps to Apply a Filter with Blend Mode, Opacity, & Control Point Mask
Converting Control Point Masks to Image Masks
Removing Uneven Field Illumination & Local Area Processing
Using Image Masks
1 - Basic Steps to Apply a Filter with Blend Mode, Opacity, & Image Mask
2 - Basic Steps to Create and Modify an Image Mask
Mask Controlled Midtone Highlight Sharpening, Background Smoothing, & Star Size Reduction
Mike


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rkayakr
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6122040 - 10/07/13 10:12 AM

Mike
I would like to ask a specific but common question. I have recently started using a Astronomics CLS filter that gives images a blue-green cast. Can you suggest a good way compensate during the color stretch?
Bob


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6122635 - 10/07/13 02:32 PM

Thanks Mike for detailed response.

Next question , 'Multi Point Flatten Background-Planar...' normally follows 'Digital Development'; is 'Multi Point Flatten Background-Planar...' needed when doing 'ArcSinH...'?


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6128507 - 10/10/13 08:19 AM

Depends on the image Mike. Digital development and ArcsinH are both stretch functions and the only difference is the stretch curve. If your image requires gradient removal then you will need to use multi-point flatten with both DDP and ArcsinH.

Mike


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: rkayakr]
      #6128516 - 10/10/13 08:27 AM

Bob,

I would not use digital development or arcsinh stretch function to deal with the blue-green cast. You could try to restore the color balance before the stretch using the typical levels, curves or pixel math approach.

Mike


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6180175 - 11/06/13 11:21 PM

Thought I'll post this... here for further discussion; thanks to Scott. Oddly enough, I have version 5.5 and am NOT seeing 11th toolbar button for Feature Mask? Regards

Quote:

Mike Unsold processed a couple of images from our Yahoo DSLR Astro Image Processing Group Challenges. He shows the complete workflow for Challenge 19 - Veil Nebula as well as Challenge 20 - NGC 6888 HaRGB. This will give you an idea on how it can be used in image processing.

He's still working on the Feature Mask tutorial web page. Here is a quote from the Beta's directions on using the Feature Mask:

Quote:


INSTRUCTIONS FOR USING THE FEATURE MASK
The feature mask is opened using the 11th toolbar button down from the top on the left vertical toolbar.
The feature mask tool is setup by default to show in black all of the areas of a color or monochrome image that will be removed.

Adjust the star radius and threshold values to maximize detail in the image but also to remove stars or the area marked in black.
The masked area size slider can be used to increase the blacked out area for a given star radius and threshold value.

After you get the blacked out area close to what you want check the Enable Fill box and press apply to fill in the black areas.

You can increase fill radius to make the painted areas darker.

Last adjust the remove small star window size and slider to remove any tiny stars that might remain.
The RGB and R,G,B color mode options can each be run to test and select the best of the two.

RGB color mode removes a pixel if it is effected by the other parameters for red and green and blue.

R,G,B removes a pixel or paints it black before fill is enabled if the pixel is effect in red or green or blue.

After you get the stars removed image correct press the Split Star and Object button to create a star only image that matches.

You can use the object and star image to create masks or process directly as is shown in the CH019 workflow shown below in
** Use the new Merge Split blend mode to merge the processed object and split stars images using the Special Functions |
Combine Images | Using Blend Mode, Opacity, and Mask tool. This is shown in the CH019 workflow.







Its proving to be an extremely useful tool - particularly for pulling out the very faintest of nebulosity in an image.




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srosenfraz
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6180289 - 11/07/13 01:28 AM

The Feature Mask is new in IP 5.75 (just released). It wasn't implemented in 5.5. IP 5.75 also adds DSLR vertical and horizontal color band and line noise suppression tools.

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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: srosenfraz]
      #6180299 - 11/07/13 01:41 AM

This comes as a surprise to me; 5.5 was released just recently. Regards

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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6180411 - 11/07/13 06:50 AM

Mike M,

ImagesPlus always has new tools under development. Next week after the release and tutorials of 5.75 are finished I will start working on the next set of new functions.

The DSLR color band and line noise removal tools really remove and not just smear around the color bands and line noise.

I will post tutorials to this thread for the feature mask and band removal tools over the next few days as the tutorials are finished.

Upgrades to the just released version are free if you recently upgraded within 45 days. You recently upgraded.
Email your address and I will send you a 5.75 CD.

Mike


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6307566 - 01/12/14 06:07 AM Attachment (2 downloads)

Mike U, following is a quote from another... thread that you never responded on...

Quote:

Mike U, Joe and I had a phone conversation last night to walk him through the Digital Development process; what we found out was that if he didn’t do an auto stretch as first step before manually adjusting all the sliders, he was able to stretch fine. I am used to doing an auto stretch as first step to have a quick look at the image and then adjusting all the sliders as needed and it has worked very well for me.

Problem Description: Core of the issue was break-point highlights; we were using the same source file (linked in my previous post) and running the steps together at each end; when I did the auto stretch my break-point highlights would be around 2500, when he would do the same, his would get pegged at 65,000; if he tried adjusting back to say 1500 after auto stretching, it would distort the image badly. Only difference is that he is using IP 5.75 on a Win8x64 and I am using IP 5.75 on Win7x64; I am not sure if this is some kind of bug we might have discovered with IP 5.75 and Win8 and how auto stretching handles break-point highlights?

Workaround: Work around we found is if he manually adjusts break-point highlights slider and avoids auto as a preliminary stretch he is fine (strange part is I can’t replicate this behavior on my Win7 platform using the exact same data and same IP version).

My take is whether one uses auto stretch or not as preliminary step [to me it is more of a convenience and I like it to preview the image that way], final break-point highlights one ends up using ‘should’ make the end result look the same and this is not happening for Joe (but works for me). Regards




Now I have myself discovered another issue with Digital Development where 'Scale Function' either doesn't work or takes a long time to become active/available. I am running Windows 8.1 Enterprise x64 and IP 5.75. Regards


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6309625 - 01/13/14 07:01 AM

Mike M.

The digital development scale function will only become available if you select something other than None in the Scale drop down list box. It is up to you to enable the scale function by selecting Linear, Nth root, or Nth Power in the Scale drop down list box. None is the default selection in the Scale drop down list a means no scale function is used.

Also I can't reproduce any problem with Auto other than I have never much liked the parameters that Auto sets. No problem adjusting auto set break-point or background weight into values that do produce a stretch that I like.

I get the same results on XP, XP x64, Vista, Win 7, Win 8, and Win 8.1 x64

Mike

Mike

Quote:

Mike U, Joe and I had a phone conversation last night to walk him through the Digital Development process; what we found out was that if he didn’t do an auto stretch as first step before manually adjusting all the sliders, he was able to stretch fine. I am used to doing an auto stretch as first step to have a quick look at the image and then adjusting all the sliders as needed and it has worked very well for me.

Problem Description: Core of the issue was break-point highlights; we were using the same source file (linked in my previous post) and running the steps together at each end; when I did the auto stretch my break-point highlights would be around 2500, when he would do the same, his would get pegged at 65,000; if he tried adjusting back to say 1500 after auto stretching, it would distort the image badly. Only difference is that he is using IP 5.75 on a Win8x64 and I am using IP 5.75 on Win7x64; I am not sure if this is some kind of bug we might have discovered with IP 5.75 and Win8 and how auto stretching handles break-point highlights?

Workaround: Work around we found is if he manually adjusts break-point highlights slider and avoids auto as a preliminary stretch he is fine (strange part is I can’t replicate this behavior on my Win7 platform using the exact same data and same IP version).

My take is whether one uses auto stretch or not as preliminary step [to me it is more of a convenience and I like it to preview the image that way], final break-point highlights one ends up using ‘should’ make the end result look the same and this is not happening for Joe (but works for me). Regards




Now I have myself discovered another issue with Digital Development where 'Scale Function' either doesn't work or takes a long time to become active/available. I am running Windows 8.1 Enterprise x64 and IP 5.75. Regards




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Joe Eiers
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6311177 - 01/13/14 09:24 PM

I'm thrilled there's a discussion with images plus. I LOVE. this program but have an extraordinarily hard time figuring out how to use it even with the tutorials. I really need step by step procedures like mmalik has in his superb document.
There's lots of documentation but IP really needs more basic step by step details to be accessible for the likes of folks like me.
Once I get further down the learning curve I'll contribute to making it easier for us slow starters.
I'm not knocking IP, I love it! I think of it as jewels in a box I don't have the combo to get in.
Joe


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6311605 - 01/14/14 03:13 AM

Quote:

The digital development scale function will only become available if you select something other than None in the Scale drop down list box. It is up to you to enable the scale function by selecting Linear, Nth root, or Nth Power in the Scale drop down list box. None is the default selection in the Scale drop down list a means no scale function is used.

Also I can't reproduce any problem with Auto other than I have never much liked the parameters that Auto sets. No problem adjusting auto set break-point or background weight into values that do produce a stretch that I like.

I get the same results on XP, XP x64, Vista, Win 7, Win 8, and Win 8.1 x64




Mike U, you are not understanding the problem/s; I am adjusting 'DDP Stretch' parameters first but 'Scale Function' drop down doesn't become available for quite some time for me to select any of the scale functions (Linear or nths). This definitely a bug of some sort; please look into it as it is affecting core piece of the software. Regards


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Mike Unsold
Vendor, MLUnsold - ImagesPlus
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Reged: 05/21/09

Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Joe Eiers]
      #6313432 - 01/14/14 11:33 PM

Quote:

I'm thrilled there's a discussion with images plus. I LOVE. this program but have an extraordinarily hard time figuring out how to use it even with the tutorials. I really need step by step procedures like mmalik has in his superb document.
There's lots of documentation but IP really needs more basic step by step details to be accessible for the likes of folks like me.
Once I get further down the learning curve I'll contribute to making it easier for us slow starters.
I'm not knocking IP, I love it! I think of it as jewels in a box I don't have the combo to get in.
Joe




Joe,

The DSLR_ASTRO_IMAGE_PROCESSING group is a very good place to learn how to process images and learn how to use ImagesPlus. Currently there are 22 different sets of images that you can download, process, and post your result along with questions. Detailed workflows are also posted. You can compare your results with those from other using many different image processing apps. Each month there is a new image to process. Here is an example of the ImagesPlus workflow for the last few months. If more detailed is need on any step then questions can be posted on the DSLR_ASTRO_IMAGE_PROCESS group.


http://mlunsold.com/process/ip5/ch019/ch019.html

http://mlunsold.com/process/ip5/ch020/ch020.html

http://mlunsold.com/process/ip5/ch021/ch021.html

In a few days I will post the ImagesPlus workflow for the
January 2014 image of C022 - IC 1805 Heart Nebula.

I also very often process images from members of the ImagesPlus Yahoo group and post very detailed workflows with screen shots.

Mike


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Mike Unsold
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6313479 - 01/15/14 12:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The digital development scale function will only become available if you select something other than None in the Scale drop down list box. It is up to you to enable the scale function by selecting Linear, Nth root, or Nth Power in the Scale drop down list box. None is the default selection in the Scale drop down list a means no scale function is used.

Also I can't reproduce any problem with Auto other than I have never much liked the parameters that Auto sets. No problem adjusting auto set break-point or background weight into values that do produce a stretch that I like.

I get the same results on XP, XP x64, Vista, Win 7, Win 8, and Win 8.1 x64




Mike U, you are not understanding the problem/s; I am adjusting 'DDP Stretch' parameters first but 'Scale Function' drop down doesn't become available for quite some time for me to select any of the scale functions (Linear or nths). This definitely a bug of some sort; please look into it as it is affecting core piece of the software. Regards




Mike M.

On Win 8.1 x64 with IP 5.75 x64 the DDP scale function is enabled and available for use by selecting something other than None in the drop down list box right from the time that you open DDP. You can use the Scale function before or after you adjust other DDP parameters. I also prefer to adjust the DDP stretch parameters first and have no trouble selecting and using the Scale function at any time.

You might find it helpful to post your DDP scale function issue on the ImagesPlus Yahoo group.

Mike


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mmalik
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Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: Mike Unsold]
      #6313550 - 01/15/14 01:22 AM

Mike U, you very well know, and I have said this before..., I am not a fan of Yahoo groups, and would rather have the discussion here at CN. Regards

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Joe Eiers
super member


Reged: 09/08/11

Loc: Sacramento, Ca.
Re: Learning ImagesPlus new [Re: mmalik]
      #6313619 - 01/15/14 02:25 AM

I so agree... I have used Yahoo groups for countless years and it's still just as clunky and a pain to communicate with folks....
CN is so much better for collaboration. I feel if we had the same IP presence here as PIX it would increase the usability dramatically!
Joe


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