jack45
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/07/03
Posts: 2474
Loc: Lacey WA
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Carol
Is there anyplace that sells the Masuyama's EPs? I never see them for sale anywhere, would like to try them out!
Clear Skies!
--------------------
16"f/4.5 Discovery Split Tube/TV Paracorr
12.5"f/5 Discovery PDHQ
Orion f/4.9 XT12"Intelliscope
BV's/Bugress Model 24/Stellarvue Model BV3A
TV Smooth Side Plossls,7.4mm,10.5mm,17mm,21mm,26mm
Nagler EPs 9mm T/2,13mm T/1,16mm T/2,20mm T/2,26mm T/5
Axiom EPs 23mm,31mm LX,22mm Panoptic
UO EPs 5MM,6MM,7MM,12.5MM
Baader Hyp 8mm-24mm Zoom
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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The species became extinct in about 1989.
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My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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jack45
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/07/03
Posts: 2474
Loc: Lacey WA
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Right, and you never see them for sale used!
Clear Skies!
--------------------
16"f/4.5 Discovery Split Tube/TV Paracorr
12.5"f/5 Discovery PDHQ
Orion f/4.9 XT12"Intelliscope
BV's/Bugress Model 24/Stellarvue Model BV3A
TV Smooth Side Plossls,7.4mm,10.5mm,17mm,21mm,26mm
Nagler EPs 9mm T/2,13mm T/1,16mm T/2,20mm T/2,26mm T/5
Axiom EPs 23mm,31mm LX,22mm Panoptic
UO EPs 5MM,6MM,7MM,12.5MM
Baader Hyp 8mm-24mm Zoom
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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They were never widely promoted or truly made readily available to consumers outside of Japan. Very few people actually own any of them.
And that they or their designer got no respect at all from a highly Eurocentric world (which praises all of the European eyepiece designers) apparently did not help. The same is happening with the Chinese eyepiece innovators of today. Sadly, they will not get any serious level of recognition or respect either. Oddly enough though, the Asian peoples seem to hide from this sort of thing, so in a real way they are acting to promote and sustain the very annonymity that the Eurocentrics are glad to oblige.
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My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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They are extremely rare to find. I'm very thrilled with mine, not to mention they are in mint condition.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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jack45
Carpal Tunnel
Reged: 07/07/03
Posts: 2474
Loc: Lacey WA
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I'll do some checking around, may get lucky!
Clear Skies!
--------------------
16"f/4.5 Discovery Split Tube/TV Paracorr
12.5"f/5 Discovery PDHQ
Orion f/4.9 XT12"Intelliscope
BV's/Bugress Model 24/Stellarvue Model BV3A
TV Smooth Side Plossls,7.4mm,10.5mm,17mm,21mm,26mm
Nagler EPs 9mm T/2,13mm T/1,16mm T/2,20mm T/2,26mm T/5
Axiom EPs 23mm,31mm LX,22mm Panoptic
UO EPs 5MM,6MM,7MM,12.5MM
Baader Hyp 8mm-24mm Zoom
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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You never know!
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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AlexRM
member
Reged: 08/20/09
Posts: 24
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Aren't the Celestron Ultima and Orion Ultrascopic based on the Masuyama design?
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Used to be 'AlexM'
Harding DSH 10
Vixen ED80SF
Orion 100mm f/6
Orion 6" f/8
Celestron C6 SCT
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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Here are some Masuyama's:
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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.. The flash changed the color of the stripe (band) around them; it is a beautiful red, rather than the orange color shown with the flash.
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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The various pseudo's share the symmetrical 2:1:2 design of Masuyama in their longer FL's (a symmetry which even Masuyama violates in the shortest FL's of their own series), but they differ in that they are much shorter than Masuyama's in overall length (a difference which is readily noticable in the longer FL's), and therefore they can't possibly have the same exact lens groups, meaning at least that the crown and flint glass types encorporated are likely different, the focal lengths of the individual lens groups for a given FL are likely going to be different, the refractive incidcies of the lens elements and groups are likely different, the degree of convex or concave curvature of the lens surfaces are likely different, and many other things are also quite likely to be internally different. Another thing that very likely is different is the degree of lens figure and surface polish (scratch/dig), which is a critical characteristic of quality for which the real Masuyama's are most certainly a cut above the all of the pseudos sans for perhaps the Tak LE's (down to the 10 mm Tak LE, as at shorter than this FL the LE's are not pseudo-Masuyama designs).
The 7 element 5 mm and 3.8 mm pseudos are actually 10 mm and 7.5 mm eyepieces with an added (removable) 2X Barlowing group, and the short FL real Masuyama's do not take this approach. Instead, the shortest FL real Masuyama's remain 2:1:2, but they do break the symmetry which is found in the longer FL Masuyama's.
Also, the various pseudo's are all parafocal with each other even across their respective brand names, but none of them are even close to being parafocal with the real Masuyama's. This in itself indicates a degree of internal difference.
--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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skypilgrim
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 558
Loc: Under a cloud
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Very interesting summary Lawrence! All along I've been thinking my pseudo's (Ultimas, Ultrascopics and even a vintage Meade Super Plossl) were the same design in a different body. Given how much I enjoy my pseudo's I wonder what I'd think if I ever got a chance to look through a real Masuyama? 
Sam
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AL Messier certificate #2078
AL Double Star certificate #354
Area of interest: Cultural Astronomy
My Blog: http://fathersky.wordpress.com/
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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I still think that there is a very good possibility (albeit speculative) that the same optical house that once manufactured the real Masuyama's is manufacturing the various pseudos. This is the very same optical house that I believe also mfg's the Baader Genuine Orthos (more speculation here, but at least [thanks to Amalia's great sleuthing] we know without having to speculate that Dr. Masuyama is the designer of the BGO's).
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My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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BillP
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 3954
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Quote:
Given how much I enjoy my pseudo's I wonder what I'd think if I ever got a chance to look through a real Masuyama?
Sam
I think you would be impressed...particularly with the focal lengths of 15mm and longer. Pitch black backgrounds and stars dimensionally *pop* in the fov when I got the chance to view thru some.
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Bill Paolini
XT10i Dob---TSA-102 S-APO---APM80/480 S-APO--- P.S.T.
TMB Supermonos---Meade UWAs---TV Panoptic---AT Titan II ED
To your own eyes be true...
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Here is the Italian website link with proof that Dr. Masuyama designed the Baader Genuine Ortho's (with all thanks to Amalia for discovering this). It is translated into (a bit broken) English thanks to the 'Babel Fish' translator.
Link to proof that Masuyama designed the BGO's
If one looks at the Baader Eudiascopic's (their version of the pseudo-Masuyama's) and compares their outward look and construction to the BGO's, it seems clear (to me at least, this being yet more of my patented speculation) that they are both mfg'd at the same location.
--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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wprince
professor emeritus
Reged: 02/26/06
Posts: 563
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Lawrence, the BGO's look like my UO HD's. I know at least the coatings differ between the two, but do you think that the HD's may be manufactured at the same location as well?
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Wade
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skypilgrim
professor emeritus
Reged: 12/25/06
Posts: 558
Loc: Under a cloud
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Once again, fascinating stuff Lawrence (and Amalia)! 
Now I wonder if my entire eyepiece case has the Masuyama stamp on it despite none actually bearing the name. Besides the pseudo's I already mentioned, I have two UO HD ortho's which probably come out of the same place as the BGO's. And I have one of the older Celestron Axiom's that were made in Japan and were promoted with the known pseudo Ultima's. Did Masuyama play a role in the Axiom design? I wonder.
Oh well, it's fun to ponder.
Sam
--------------------
AL Messier certificate #2078
AL Double Star certificate #354
Area of interest: Cultural Astronomy
My Blog: http://fathersky.wordpress.com/
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Quote:
Lawrence, the BGO's look like my UO HD's. I know at least the coatings differ between the two, but do you think that the HD's may be manufactured at the same location as well?
It would appear so! 'Speculation mode' is on though.
--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Quote:
Here are some Masuyama's:
Beautiful! Love that unique Oriental Pagoda look.
--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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5u4
member
Reged: 04/27/06
Posts: 92
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I bought a 10mm Masuyama when they first hit the market from a very well know dealer. The owner of the store told me it was an Ortho with an air-spaced triplet, hmm well that's different. I compared it to a TV 10.5 Plossl & it seemed the TV was better in just about every regard. So, I sent the Masuyama to a very well known optician to find out what was going on & was told it was a 2-1-2 design similar to a Celestron Ultima, which we all now know of course & the scratch & dig was very poor. I returned the eyepiece to the dealer & never looked back. Guess I'm the only one, or at least one of the few with a less than stellar review of the illustrious Masuyama?
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BillP
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 3954
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Lawrence, the BGO's look like my UO HD's. I know at least the coatings differ between the two, but do you think that the HD's may be manufactured at the same location as well?
It would appear so! 'Speculation mode' is on though.
A long long long time ago, I had a lengthy conversation with an insider regarding any real differences between the UO HD and BGOs. They did indicate to me that both were from the same source, just branding customizations done at the factory. Since branding customizations by a factory can go into things beyond logos into things like polish and coatings, I also pushed on that point. While not saying it specifically, they alluded to no difference. I've had both brands, although not at the same time. Felt they were pretty equivalent based on memory and observing notes.
--------------------
Bill Paolini
XT10i Dob---TSA-102 S-APO---APM80/480 S-APO--- P.S.T.
TMB Supermonos---Meade UWAs---TV Panoptic---AT Titan II ED
To your own eyes be true...
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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My experience with them was supurb. Several of the Masuyama's that I tested are the very ones that Carol photographed for this thread, so I know that she has good ones. I had owned in the past the bulk of the original Tele Vue Plossl series, so I know that the Masuyama's are capable of matching or exceeding them in several areas, though not in contrast. As I have stated before, it seems to me that many (to most) people judge eyepieces purely by their contrast alone. Things like width of "true" field, flatness of the field, freedom from lateral color, on and off axis resolution, ergonomic comfort in viewing, ergonomic comfort in Barlowing, and the like generally play a distant second fiddle. Most will on non critical evaluation say that the eyepiece with the most contrast (pop) appears more "sharp" to them. Perhaps, but sharpness is an essentially arbitrary blend of contrast with resolution, so sharpness is not at all a well defined term, being almost purely subject to what the beholder values most as a building block for "sharpness".
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My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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Quote:
Quote:
Here are some Masuyama's:
Beautiful! Love that unique Oriental Pagoda look.
Thanks! They are, indeed, a beautiful design. I'm very, very fortunate to have them.
--------------------
Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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BillP
Post Laureate
Reged: 11/26/06
Posts: 3954
Loc: Vienna, VA
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Quote:
Guess I'm the only one, or at least one the few with a less than stellar review of the illustrious Masuyama?
I don't think you are the only one. But true that as a general observation most people praise the original Masuyamas. I think this is indicative that overall the line is excellent and probably quality/consistency very good.
Not sure on the 10mm you mention, but my experiences with the 7.5mm were similar to yours in that it had what I considered to be moderate levels of scatter (which could have been from a poorer scratch-dig as you mentioned), and it was also not as *crisp* on planetary as other similar focal length eyepieces I have (like Lawrence mentioned, sharp is a term which often gets misinterpreted, so I prefer the term crisp as it I think better implied a mix of drivers whereas shrpness can often be confused with resolution which can have a rather specific meaning). For the longer focal lengths however, they were simply spectacular on star fields putting up some quite impressive and *moving* views. I would love to find that 25mm 65 degree unit Carol has, must be a real gem  I also find the conical eye cup a very interesting design. When I used them it felt odd for the shorter FLs in that the cup seemed to be made to fit my eyeball, sort of like I could place my eyeball in the EPs waiting socket. As odd as it was, very effective in stopping stray light. Very unique housing design. I like it!
--------------------
Bill Paolini
XT10i Dob---TSA-102 S-APO---APM80/480 S-APO--- P.S.T.
TMB Supermonos---Meade UWAs---TV Panoptic---AT Titan II ED
To your own eyes be true...
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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Quote:
I would love to find that 25mm 65 degree unit Carol has, must be a real gem
Very interesting, that the 25W is the only Masuyama with 65°. the majority are 52°
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Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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Lawrence Sayre
Abbe Normal
Reged: 10/16/04
Posts: 4760
Loc: N.E. Ohio
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Their observatory class eyepieces (4" monsters) are 3 element Kellners.
--------------------
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a moral being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Ayn Rand (in the appendix to 'Atlas Shrugged')
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NickG
professor emeritus
Reged: 11/06/06
Posts: 529
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Interesting reading this. My first experience with Masuyama was with the 10mm and it left a lasting effect, which I'll never forget. Compared to everything else I tried and had at the time it made me realise how important quality is and the effect on performance. In my case it easily outperformed the Ortho's of the day (UO, etc, various Plossl's), though it was never stacked up against really serious competition, like Zeiss Ortho's or Supermono's or Pentax SMC Ortho's. I didn't realise how much difference there could be and this 10mm Masuyama was the start of real progress for me in image quality.
Must stack them up against more serious contenders and see how they go. I am reasonably confident the Masuyamas will hold their own overall, but maybe I'm speaking prematurely.
Clear skies
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Svezda
sage
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 261
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
Lawrence, the BGO's look like my UO HD's. I know at least the coatings differ between the two, but do you think that the HD's may be manufactured at the same location as well?
This has been discussed quite a bit but I've never seen anything more than assumptions that the coatings on these are different. My opinion is that the eyepieces, which obviously have the same optical elements and identical metal housings, are in fact, completely identical except for branding/engraving. Just because Baader may use ad copy such as 'Phantom Group Coatings' (or whatever they call them) doesn't mean that the optical house is coating the Baader units with a better quality coating. For one, the UO HD coatings look really excellent - not sure what improvement the Baaders would be able to offer. I could be wrong, I just don't think so. If this mystery is ever definitively solved I'll be glad and if I'm wrong I'd have no problem saying so.
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Chopin
Canis Insanus
Reged: 02/03/05
Posts: 3627
Loc: In the doghouse.
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Quote:
They are extremely rare to find. I'm very thrilled with mine, not to mention they are in mint condition.
Yup, you're going to rub it in aren't you, Carol? 
--------------------
JasonŽ
birdsbyjason.com
12" Hardin DSH-12│4˝" Custom newt│Garrett 15x85 HD WP│Pentax 8x40 PCF WP II│24Pan│13T6│3-6NZ│Faworski Abbes
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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Quote:
Quote:
They are extremely rare to find. I'm very thrilled with mine, not to mention they are in mint condition.
Yup, you're going to rub it in aren't you, Carol?
--------------------
Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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MikeRatcliff
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/12/04
Posts: 1329
Loc: Redlands, CA
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I see one is for sale on Astromart (Oct 29)! (Not my ad).
Mike
--------------------
16" f/4.9 dob, 1.25" Paracorr, 24 TV Widefield, 18 Circle T ortho, 13 Nagler T6, 12.5 UO ortho,
9 Circle T ortho, 2x TV Barlow 1.25"
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csa/montana
Den Mother
Reged: 05/14/05
Posts: 40307
Loc: montana
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Yep, if I was in a better position, I would have been very interested. Came up at a bad time for me. 
--------------------
Carol
AstroTech 16" Dob (Thanks ASTRONOMICS!)
Vixen 80MF/AstroTech Voyager
Masuyama's 7.5, 15, 25W, 35mm,
Pentaxes; 5XW, 7XL, 10XW.
14mm Meade 4000 UWA
TV Panoptics; 22, 35
DreamCatcher Dobservatory, #2
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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4349
Loc: Petaluma, CA
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'Scuse me, but...if the Baader is a "Genuine Orthoscopic" wouldn't Ernst Abbe technically be the "designer"? I would think of Dr. Masuyama (or anyone else basing their work on an existing design) as a "adapter" rather than "designer". Of course if the Baaders really are *not* genuine orthoscopics, I suppose Masuyama could be the designer rather than an adapter, in which case I think the Baaders are mis-branded. 
Regards,
Jim
--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
- Sir Issac Newton
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Mike Hosea
Post Laureate
Reged: 09/24/03
Posts: 3957
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
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Quote:
If this mystery is ever definitively solved I'll be glad and if I'm wrong I'd have no problem saying so.
I think you're safe. Unless there is some obvious difference that you can see or test for, which AFAIK, there is not, neither Baader nor UO would be sure of exactly what their competitor is getting. The factory knows, but yeah, like they're going to say. Not gonna happen.
--------------------
Mike
Stuff that I use:
- 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt and equatorial platform
- 6 eyepieces and a Barlow
- 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt
- Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars
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Svezda
sage
Reged: 06/01/07
Posts: 261
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
Lawrence, the BGO's look like my UO HD's. I know at least the coatings differ between the two, but do you think that the HD's may be manufactured at the same location as well?
This keeps coming up and I know many have said that there are differences between coatings, polish, etc. in the UO vs. Baader but I have never seen one shred of evidence that it is so and I don't believe there is any difference. I am not at all pointing to the poster here - simply noticed the post and wanted to ask again if /anyone/ has /any/ evidence of an actual difference in quality of these two brands. Even the coatings 'look' to the eye to be of the same color.
EDIT: I had forgotten that I already commented on this but still it is an occasional topic that comes up. I think Bill's post earlier is the key - someone who should know basically told him that there is no difference between these two. If I paid this optical house to engrave 'super duper best quality coatings' or 'phantom coating group' on my personal run of 250 of the UO HD/Baader orthos I am pretty sure that they wouldn't object.
Edited by Svezda (11/01/09 04:21 PM)
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