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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Posts: 4340
Loc: Petaluma, CA
Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces
      #3424443 - 11/01/09 08:16 PM

It's that time of year again...

After the new year, in early January, Dan and I and a few others will be running the trials for the Second Annual Eyepiece "resolution(TM)" World Cup.

This year, I'm thinking fewer eyepieces (there were 20 last year; I want just 10 this year), more observers (there were two main and one proctor/tie-breaker observer last year; I'd like 4 main observers this year), and more targets (the Trapezium was the only target last year; I'd like 3 tough double star targets this year). I have a post in the Double Stars forum asking for target sugegstions. Again the target type will be challenging double stars for the aperture, magnification and seeing conditions. The criteria will be whether all stars are seen, and if so, how clearly/constantly.

As for eyepieces, I'm looking for 10 different eyepieces in the 4mm and 5mm focal lengths. The test bed will be a TEC 140, generating magnification in the 196 to 245 range. I'll be using a TEC i-Turret with 5 slots, meaning that there will be two groups of 5 eyepieces each under examination.

The group winners will be the eyepieces from each group with the highest cumulative score. Scoring will be the sum of all scores awarded by each of the four observers for each of the three targets. This year, however, there will be some "fairness" adjustments if for example several eyepieces in Group A have higher cumulative scores than any eyepiece in Group B. In such case, each eyepiece with a score higher than the Group B winner, up to four, will appear in the final round, with the fifth slot going to the Group B winner even if there's a fifth eyepiece in Group A with a higher cumulative score.

I think the above scenario is unlikely, but you never know. Last year several folks were perturbed when the Pentax XW and Pentax SMC Orthoscopic were eliminated by the 7mm TMB Supermono, despite the fact that they shared the same high score as the TMB. (The winner of the group was picked out of a hat. Scientific, I know. )

Here are some of my thoughts about 4mm and 5mm contenders:

5.1mm Pentax XO
5mm Pentax SMC Orthoscopic
5mm TMB Supermono
5mm University Abbe Orthoscopic
5mm Pentax XW
5mm Radian
5mm Type 6 Nagler
5mm Takahashi LE
4mm TMB Supermonocentric
5mm TMB Planetary
4mm TMB Planeatry
4mm Meade Research Grade Orthoscopic

I'm open to other suggestions as well. Let 'em rip!

Thanks,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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orveko
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Posts: 191
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424467 - 11/01/09 08:30 PM

Other suggestions:

Siebert Star Splitter
Zhumell Z-Series

The former is often touted as being "just as good" or "better" than some well respected eypeieces like the UO HDs. It would be interesting to see how it performs head to head. The latter is often suggested with the TMB Planetary as a best bang for your buck planetary eyepiece, but few detailed comparisons with other eyepieces exist.

--------------------
Zhumell Z10 Dobsonian: 1250mm x 250mm (ƒ/5)
  • Sky & Telescope's Pocket Sky Atlas
  • Smart Astronomy Sterling Plössl: 40mm
  • Antares Elite Plössls: 25mm, 15mm, 10mm
  • Siebert Optics Star Splitters: 7.5mm, 6mm, 5mm
Oberwerk 15x70 Binoculars on a Manfrotto 055XB tripod and 128LP head


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FirstSight
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Reged: 12/26/05
Posts: 3871
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424477 - 11/01/09 08:36 PM

Since there's a fair number of Ethos owners who are using a 2x Powermate or 2x TV Barlow with the 10E to achieve an effecive 5mm focal length, and with the 8E to achieve an effective 4mm focal length, I'd be curious how these combinations stack up against the standalone premium EPs such as in the 5mm category, the 5mmT6 Nagler or the 5mm Pentax XW. Or, in the 4mm category, whatever head-to-head matchups might seem most appropriate.

--------------------
Chris M., aka "First Sight"
Orion XT12i Dob with Moonlite CR-2 focuser
WO Megrez 90 refractor on UniStar Light mount
Nikon 10x50 Binoculars


Edited by FirstSight (11/01/09 08:41 PM)


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SteveC
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424479 - 11/01/09 08:37 PM

Hi Jim,

Is the 5.1mm Pentax XO a typo? Mines states 5mm.

Might I suggest that if you are keeping the field to 10, that you substitute a 4mm ZAO II in place of the 4mm Supermono, since the Supermonos are already represented by the 5mm. I'll be glad to loan you my ZAO II.

--------------------
SteveC


TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40

Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod

TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA


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MikeRatcliff
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Reged: 06/12/04
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Loc: Redlands, CA
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: SteveC]
      #3424484 - 11/01/09 08:40 PM

Jim,

Maybe just stick with 5mm? 4mm to 5mm is a big difference percentage-wise.

Mike

--------------------
16" f/4.9 dob, 1.25" Paracorr, 24 TV Widefield, 18 Circle T ortho, 13 Nagler T6, 12.5 UO ortho,
9 Circle T ortho, 2x TV Barlow 1.25"





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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4340
Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #3424501 - 11/01/09 08:51 PM

Possibly Mike. But last year the jump from 7mm to 8mm in 880mm focal length 4-inchers turned out to be irrelevant to the results. There were 2 8mm eyepieces and 2 7mm eyepieces in the quarter finals.

We'll do some pre-testing trials to be sure, to validate the focal length choice and targets are rational (just as we did last year before the "big show").

Thanks for the suggestion.

- Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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hfjacinto
Almost got me
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424526 - 11/01/09 09:15 PM

I second the Zhummel Planetary. For $59 I would like to see how well they score.

--------------------
C9.25 ASGT 9*50 MM Finder,FT Focuser & 2" Diagonal
Meade LXD 75 6 Inch SNT w 9*50 MM Finder
5,6,9,14.5 MM Zhummel Planetary EPs
13,17,21,24,31,36 MM Baader Hyperion
6.7,8.8 MM Meade UWA & 11 MM Nagler T6
Planetary, OIII and Narrowband Filters
Thousand Oaks Dew Control w Kendrick Heaters


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: SteveC]
      #3424551 - 11/01/09 09:31 PM

Steve, the offer of the 4mm ZAO-II is much appreciated. We'll probably take you up on it. Of course, you may have to deliver it in person and participate in the observations. You'd like the vintage Napa cabernet tasting that follows the observing. Maybe a Sivler Oak ladder tasting from the mid to late 80s.

As for that Pentax XO, I think the specification is actually 5.1mm though it's labeled a "5". The 2.5mm is really a 2.58mm as well I believe.

- Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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jrbarnett
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Posts: 4340
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: orveko]
      #3424556 - 11/01/09 09:33 PM

Chris, lots of interest in the Zhumells. I think we'll have to add it in the mix. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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starcam
sage


Reged: 09/24/07
Posts: 316
Loc: MD
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424573 - 11/01/09 09:41 PM

It would definitely be interesting seeing how the siebert 4.9 star splitter would stack up. Especially since it is touted as a star splitter. Next 5mm UO HD and the 5mm edge on planetary. To see how they stack up against the higher priced optics and still are being manufactured. Thank you for no more hat tricks.

--------------------
Celestron 9.25 SCT f/10 fl/2350
Stellarvue SV102ED2 F/7 fl/710
William Optics Megrez 72mm F/6 fl/432mm
Coronado PST
CG-5
UWAN 28mm
Panoptic 22mm
Televue 7T6,13T6,15wf,11
Pentax XW 7,10,20,40 / XO 5 / Zoom 8-24
RKE 8,12,15,21,28
Hyperion 5,8,17/13
TMB 2.5,4,6II,7,9
Brandon 6,8,12,16
UO HD 7mm
Oberwerk bino 15x70
Burgess 8x42 bino
WO binoviewer




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SteveC
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424602 - 11/01/09 09:58 PM

Quote:

Steve, the offer of the 4mm ZAO-II is much appreciated. We'll probably take you up on it. Of course, you may have to deliver it in person and participate in the observations. You'd like the vintage Napa cabernet tasting that follows the observing. Maybe a Sivler Oak ladder tasting from the mid to late 80s.




Thanks for the invite, perhaps I can clear my schedule. I could bring a second TEC turret for easy EP lock and load.

As for the cabernet, bring a wheelbarrow, because I won't be driving and walking will be rather iffy.

Quote:

As for that Pentax XO, I think the specification is actually 5.1mm though it's labeled a "5". The 2.5mm is really a 2.58mm as well I believe.




Ha! I'm returning mine. I hate when I'm lied to. And to think I was going to take it out for 1st light within the next 5 minutes.

--------------------
SteveC


TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40

Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod

TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA


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Mike Hosea
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Posts: 3927
Loc: "Metrowest" Boston
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: SteveC]
      #3424827 - 11/02/09 12:37 AM

Quote:

I hate when I'm lied to.




Steve, you're my favorite eyepiece forum poster of all time!

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4340
Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3424848 - 11/02/09 12:50 AM

Perhaps a class action like the ones in the 80s against monitor manufacturers for advertising "15-inch diagonal" on monitors which were actually only 14.58-inched diagonally?

The audacity! Errors of 0.1mm and 0.08mm, respectively.

But before you return the mis-represented 5.1mm XO, perhaps we could borrow it, too, for testing.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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Tiny
super member


Reged: 05/02/08
Posts: 191
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424865 - 11/02/09 01:17 AM

Just a few more to put out there

Explore Scientific 82* 4.7mm [more competition for said nagler]
Baader Hyperion 5mm
Vixen LVW 5mm [interested how this compares to the Pentax XW, and overall, given the high price point]


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deSitter
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 2926
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Tiny]
      #3424970 - 11/02/09 04:27 AM

Throw in a cheapie or two - GSO Super View or Meade 4000 Plossl 6.4mm. I think it would be better to stay in the 6-8mm range as they are more typical observing choices. You can then test the Pentax XF 8mm, which I predict would finish strong but be bested by some Ortho.

-drl


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Jeff Morgan
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 09/28/03
Posts: 1985
Loc: Prescott, AZ
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3424998 - 11/02/09 05:39 AM

An ambitious project, but it will only tell us how these eyepieces do with refractors. Add a Newtonian and a SCT to the mix.

--------------------
Jeff Morgan
Prescott, AZ
Wile E. Coyote School of Telescope Making


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kaaikop
scholastic sledgehammer
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Reged: 07/13/08
Posts: 766
Loc: North of the Montreal nebula
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #3425017 - 11/02/09 06:54 AM

Another vote for the LVW (just curious to see how it fares vs a Nagler...

--------------------
Benoit, RASC Montreal

-C9.25 on EQ6 Pro - C6/ED80 on Portamount
-TV Plossls, Radians, Nags, Pans, UO Orthos.


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EdZ
Professor EdZ
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: kaaikop]
      #3425043 - 11/02/09 07:26 AM

Doubles for Testing Limits of 80mm to 150mm

you'll be pretty much down near the low end of this list. However, you will find a pair even with a seemingly wider than do-able separation, if it has more uneven magnitudes, will prove quite difficult, so 1.3" with a 2 magnitude difference mayl be a bit more of a challenge than it might first seem.

Probably some of these need to be checked in the 6th Orbit Catalogue, since they have been changing, but perhaps by only a few hundreths arcsec. For example I have zeta Cnclisted at 0.98", but it is at 1.04" in 2009 and will be at 1.06" in 2010.

My opinion is you will probably need to be looking at stars well above the diffraction limit, since you are not using magnifications that will support reaching the limits. Your scope has a limit perhaps as low as 0.9", but it would take probably well over 400x to see that completely separated. To see details in the rings, such as depth of notch or percent overlap, you'd probably need 500x. Furthermore, that low limit will be affected by the magnitudes and the color of the pairs you select. But probably most important is this, you are using only half the power needed to see the diffraction limit. At best, with the powers you are using, you'd simply see that as elongated, perhaps slightly notched. So, I think if you want to see diffraction patterns and details that will help qualify one eyepiece from another, you'll probably be well above the diffraction limit.

Just a heads up, differences in magnification are going to make all the difference in the world on what can be seen and what can't, especially at the resolution limit, and you have quite a wide difference in magnification there. You might find you need to use even slightly wider pairs for the lower power eyepieces in your test group.

Since you might need to use different target separations for each of these eyepiece powers, then it might be wise to include, whenever possible, both the 4mm and 5mm from the same set. For instance, include a 4mm and 5mm University Abbe Orthoscopic, 4mm and 5mm TMB Planetary, 4mm and 5mm Radian, etc.

I noticed you mentioned that Sirius would be one of your doubles targets. A formidable challenge, but just my opinion, Sirius might be more a test of contrast, not resolution.

edz

Edited by EdZ (11/02/09 10:29 AM)


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bcuddihee
Pooh-Bah


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Posts: 1401
Loc: Cincinnati Ohio
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3425113 - 11/02/09 08:35 AM

I know its not a sexy choice but I too would like to see how the lowly GSO's stack up.
bc

--------------------
B Cuddihee

--------------------------
1968 Jason Empire 60X700mm refractor (my buddy from way back)
Celestron Nexstar8SE aka "The Bumblebee",(there is no way this scope should perform as well as it does...but it does)
Feathertouch Microfocuser
Stellarvue 50mm "Sparrowhawk" finder
Denk bino's with Power x switch
Pair of Smart Astronomy 19 EF's (great ep's for binos)
Pair of Edmund 28 plossls
Pair of Edmund 28 RKE'S
Pair of tv 20mm plossls





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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/15/06
Posts: 1775
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3425251 - 11/02/09 10:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I hate when I'm lied to.




Steve, you're my favorite eyepiece forum poster of all time!




Even the morally and spiritually corrupt have their limits.

--------------------
SteveC


TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40

Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod

TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA


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SteveC
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 1775
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3425280 - 11/02/09 10:48 AM

Quote:

Perhaps a class action like the ones in the 80s against monitor manufacturers for advertising "15-inch diagonal" on monitors which were actually only 14.58-inched diagonally?

The audacity! Errors of 0.1mm and 0.08mm, respectively.





Soliciting business, Jim?

Okie dokie, I've testified a few times in a court room. I can do pain and suffering very well.

Quote:

But before you return the mis-represented 5.1mm XO, perhaps we could borrow it, too, for testing.

Regards,

Jim




You can take your eyes off my EPs now. I'm more than just a pretty face with a big EP collection.

--------------------
SteveC


TEC 140
Intes Micro 715 deluxe
TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40

Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod

TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06
Posts: 4340
Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #3425512 - 11/02/09 01:26 PM

What's a "Newtonian" or "SCT"???

There are other scopes than refractors???

Man, you learn something new every day.

Now on a more serious note, if we were looking at characteristics like edge of field performance, I would agree with you that telescope design would be an important factor. Here, however, we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.

I don't think that there's any reason to believe that an eyepiece that is superior on-axis at the described task in a refractor would not also be superior in a Newtonian or SCT. Thoughts?

The advantage of using a premium modest aperture refractor is shorter cool-down, less collimation concern, no central obstruction and/or spider vane occultation factors, etc.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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EdZ
Professor EdZ
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3425578 - 11/02/09 02:04 PM

Quote:

we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.





Rayleigh Limit tells us that a 140mm scope has a diffraction limit of 0.98 arcsec. However that is for light at 550nm, and in scotopic vision the eye is more stimulated by light in the range nearer to 510nm. So your scope has a Rayleigh Limit closer to 0.9 arcseconds.

There are a number of other conditions that are generally present that make the stars larger or smaller and therefore affect the resolution of the scope, particularly magnitude and color of stars. It is therefore reasonable to assume, IF you want to see stars at the limit that your scope is capable of splitting, you need stars closer to 1 arcsecond.

Unfortunately, the targets you need will be larger than the diffraction limit ,since you are not using magnification high enough to SEE stars at the limit. Therefore, whether you see stars split or not will be entirely controlled by magnification and acuity.

The problem here lies in the fact that the eyepiece range, 4mm and 5mm, in that scope, is not powerful enough to achieve magnifications that would be necessary to see stars resolved that this scope is capable of resolving. So, due to the lower powers in use, you have to step back from the resolution limit to see stars separated.

To see a 1 arcsec star resolved, completely separated, in a 140mm scope, you might need something on the order of 300x-400x. Well, you have 200x to 250x. You might see 1.5" stars resolved. But now you are controled by magnification. You might see it at 250x, you might not at 200x. That's not resolution, that's simply an application of enough power, or not enough power.

That leaves you with two main problems, testing below the resolution limit and testing widely varying powers. Both are not tests of resolution.

A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equal magnitude pair is exactly equal in performace to a 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.0" similar pair cleanly separated. If that 5mm eyepiece at 200x can see a 1.2" pair, then it has actually exceeded the performance of the 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can only see 1.0".

If you want to test resolution of different eyepieces of varying magnifications, then you must eliminate magnification as a variable. The only way to do that is, either use different focal length scopes (not recommended) or use targets that vary inversely with the power.

Perhaps you might consider a very rigid selection of different targets for each of the magnification sets. Any notion that magnification plays no role in the outcome is ill-conceived.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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HandyAndy
professor emeritus


Reged: 01/11/08
Posts: 649
Loc: West Midlands and around
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3425849 - 11/02/09 04:41 PM

Hi,

How about adding a 4mm Clave' as the only recent example of a real Plossl.

BillP rated a 6mm as third in an addendum to his 6mm shoot out.

Cheers. Andrew.

--------------------
Monarch 8x42, Zeiss 10x50 WA
10mm F2, Pentax 60mm F5
City: 7" MN78: MK4#2, 10" F6.3: MK4#1, 16" F5 ParaCorr
Country: 8" VISAC: (GP2)
Car: 6" F5 MPCC: SP, 5" 127mm F7.5 (GP2)
TV 55mm, Paragon 40mm, UO Pretoria 28mm
B&L 32 Pl, Clave's 25, 8, 6, 2x
Hyperions 5, 8, 13, 17, 24, 31
Nagler1 9mm, Meade 14mm 4000 UWA
Antares 1.6x, 0.7x, 0.5x


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hfjacinto
Almost got me
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Reged: 01/12/09
Posts: 2068
Loc: Union,NJ
Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: HandyAndy]
      #3425874 - 11/02/09 04:56 PM

Jim,

As I have 2 very different scopes, I can tell you that eyepieces perform very differently in different scopes. My Hyperions are excellent in the 9.25 CAT, but are very good to good on the SN6. The Zhummels are 90% as good as a Radian on the SN6, but I had a hard time telling the 2 eyepieces apart on the 9.25. The Nagler is excellent on the SN6 but only as good as a Hyperion on the 9.25

Just my 2 cents.

--------------------
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #3425972 - 11/02/09 06:04 PM

Quote:

Any notion that magnification plays no role in the outcome is ill-conceived.




I've always appreciated your analysis EdZ. When evaluating EP's how does LP affect the test? I've always wondered if there is a cut off in LVM that makes certain comparisons of either EP's or other optical systems a bit more specious. For instance in heavily LP New York Metro area I've seen less variations in EP's than what is easily visible differences once limiting mag hits >6.0

Jim - besides being a sweet spot for many scopes did you choose the EP focal range to best match your local atm conditions?

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3426363 - 11/02/09 10:14 PM

Quote:

I'm open to other suggestions as well. Let 'em rip!




Jim,

What would you think of adding a Tele Vue 3-6mm zoom set to 4 or 5mm?

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #3426419 - 11/02/09 10:43 PM

Nagler Zoom. Great idea. I like it!

- Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: nyc_nurse]
      #3426455 - 11/02/09 11:00 PM

"Jim - besides being a sweet spot for many scopes did you choose the EP focal range to best match your local atm conditions?"

I wish I could claim to be that savvy, but alas no. Much more mundane: Last year we used 4-inchers to compare 7mm and 8mm eyepieces (TV-102s, in fact) working between 110x and 127x. This year I wanted to add a little aperture, to increase resolving power, and also add a little more magnification to take advantage of the extra aperture. Besides last year's infamous World Cup covering 7mm and 8mm eyepieces, BillP's famous 6mm Planetary Shootout exhaustively covered the 6mm focal length. 4mm to 5mm seems to be the "leftover" range that hasn't yet gotten attention in a mega-comparo.

Our winter skies are fairly unpredictable. Dan and I set up for a dry run two nights before last year's comparison, and seeing was so bad that a 6" refractor could not resolve more than Trapezium A through D. We were almost ready to re-think the comparo, but decided to roll the dice and were rewarded with decent, though not perfect, skies and were rewarded by having several eyepieces resolve 6 Trapezum stars in 4-inchers.

I'll do a new post in this forum once the line-up of eyepieces and targets have been fixed, and will give details regarding our intended methodology this time around as well as repeating what we mean by "resolution(TM)" to keep the more serious folks happy (you know who you are ).

In the meantime, please keep the eyepiece ideas coming. If you have double star target ideas, please share them on the thread I've posted in the Double Star forum.

Thanks a bunch for the suggestions thus far,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3426777 - 11/03/09 02:21 AM

Quote:

What's a "Newtonian" or "SCT"???

There are other scopes than refractors???

Man, you learn something new every day.

Now on a more serious note, if we were looking at characteristics like edge of field performance, I would agree with you that telescope design would be an important factor. Here, however, we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.

I don't think that there's any reason to believe that an eyepiece that is superior on-axis at the described task in a refractor would not also be superior in a Newtonian or SCT. Thoughts?

The advantage of using a premium modest aperture refractor is shorter cool-down, less collimation concern, no central obstruction and/or spider vane occultation factors, etc.

Regards,

Jim




Hi Jim,

How about some aperture? Perhaps Dan's 20" Obsession. I can tell you that the difference between eyepieces is magnified with aperture. I noticed that too when I was doing a shootout with a friend's 4" Tak and my 22". The difference between the UO Ortho and TMB SMC was not really noticeable with the 4", but very noticeable with my 22". Then the difference between the Radian and the TMB SMC was astounding that even a novice easily saw the difference. I remember reading a report by someone on CN saying that aperture will increase the difference between eyepieces...also performs differently. When we did it, we looked at Jupiter, M-13 and something else that I don't remember.

And the 20" Obsession will beat the snot out of the little 5.5" refractor any day. I know... I used to own a TEC-140 and TOA-130S, my 22" beats both of them pretty much every time. And yes, they were equilibrated and collimated. Sorry, I had to say that. I didn't sell them because of that, but originally picked them up for imaging, which I decided not to pursue and stay on the visual side.

--------------------
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3426865 - 11/03/09 05:05 AM

It would be nice to know how my 4mm CZJ 0.965 Ortho compares with the other 4mm eyepieces on the list.

Clear skies


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Junn Chavez]
      #3426910 - 11/03/09 06:55 AM

Quote:

That leaves you with two main problems, testing below the resolution limit and testing widely varying powers. Both are not tests of resolution.




Let me rephrase that. Testing below the resolution limit and at the same time testing widely varying powers can indeed be considered a test of resolution, BUT, it is primarily influenced by magnification, almost to the point of (and in some cases entirely) masking the intended results. If you want your results to come out on a level playing field, you must eliminate the variable of magnification.

Quote:

A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equal magnitude pair is exactly equal in performace to a 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.0" similar pair cleanly separated. If that 5mm eyepiece at 200x can see a 1.2" pair, then it has actually exceeded the performance of the 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can only see 1.0".




What the heck is he saying here?
This is really very simple. In order to equalize (eliminate the influence of) magnification, rather than compare direct observation of resolved pair, compare the "apparent resolution " of the resolved pairs.
A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equals 200 x 1.25 = 250 arcseconds apparent
A 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.0" equals 250 x 1.0 = 250 arcseconds apparent
these are equal in performance. However if

A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.20", then it equals 200 x 1.2 = 240 arcseconds apparent
it has achieved a better mark

Just to highlight the implications of NOT taking magnification into consideration. Assume both the 4mm and 5mm eyepieces resolve the same 1.25" pair of stars. But also let's assume it looks to you like the 4mm did just a tiny bit better job. Well, how do they really stack up?

A 5mm eyepiece at 200x that can see a 1.25" equals 200 x 1.25 = 250 arcseconds apparent
A 4mm eyepiece at 250x that can see a 1.25" equals 250 x 1.25 = 312 arcseconds apparent
The 4mm eyepiece, due to magnification, had such a huge advantage that it made the object 25% larger, it didn't really resolve any better, in fact, it didn't resolve as well. Regardless what it looked like to you, with disregard for magnification, this 4mm eyepiece was beat out to the finish line by a full lap of the track. The 5mm eyepiece left the 4mm ep so far back in the pack that the 4mm will be relegated to the JV team for the next event.

I hope those examples drive home the point.


Quote:

If you want to test resolution of different eyepieces of varying magnifications, then you must eliminate magnification as a variable. The only way to do that is, either use different focal length scopes (not recommended) or use targets that vary inversely with the power.




Keep in mind when observing double stars, you can't use brighter stars as targets for one eyepiece and dimmer targets for the other eyepiece. Magnitude of stars changes the size of the central visible disk with brightest stars creating a disadvantaged larger visable disk. So you need to keep the magnitudes of the selections fairly consistent so as to eliminate advantage. Likewise, you can't use blue stars as targets for one eyepiece and orange/red stars as targets for the other eyepiece. The blue stars would provide such a large advantage as to completely skew the results.


So why do I stress all these issues which must be taken into consideration. Long after the forum hubbub is faded into the sunset, there will be this review posted that will be available to readers year after year. Several years down the road, it would be good if someone (knowledgable enough) could pick up the review and read it and not have to say, Geez look at all the stuff they didn't take into consideration, what a bunch of hooeey. Because you know, the reader who doesn't have a clue isn't going to be reading it looking for those same clues.


edz

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3426926 - 11/03/09 07:24 AM

Edz says, >>> But probably most important is this, you are using only half the power needed to see the diffraction limit.<<<

So, if the idea is to test EPs of a given focal length and not overall telescope performance, I would think using a scope that produces smaller diffraction limited stars in its focal plane would enable you to better discern the resolution performance of the EP than would using a scope where the aberrations and diffraction limit of the OTA produce a large blob and swamp any affect of the EP, no?

The angular size of the Airy patern is inversely proportional to the aperture and proportional to the focal length, so the linear size so is fixed for a given f/#. So, for a given focal length EP, a faster f/# will produce a smaller input to the EP making it easier to discern the EP performance wrt resolution. The doubles don't have to be difficult overall, they just need to be difficult for the EP.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: orveko]
      #3426928 - 11/03/09 07:26 AM

Quote:

Other suggestions:

Siebert Star Splitter
Zhumell Z-Series

The former is often touted as being "just as good" or "better" than some well respected eypeieces like the UO HDs. It would be interesting to see how it performs head to head. The latter is often suggested with the TMB Planetary as a best bang for your buck planetary eyepiece, but few detailed comparisons with other eyepieces exist.




Great idea to toss in a Siebert SS, it seems like nobody ever does a side by side with one of these. It would be interesting to see how they stack up.
I've used them for years and found them to be excellent.

--------------------
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Luigi]
      #3427033 - 11/03/09 09:19 AM

Quote:

So, if the idea is to test EPs of a given focal length and not overall telescope performance, I would think using a scope that produces smaller diffraction limited stars in its focal plane would enable you to better discern the resolution performance of the EP




Yes, which is exactly why, in the post immediately previous to yours, I stated "Let me rephrase that."

Quote:

The angular size of the Airy patern is inversely proportional to the aperture and proportional to the focal length, so the linear size so is fixed for a given f/#. So, for a given focal length EP, a faster f/# will produce a smaller input to the EP making it easier to discern the EP performance wrt resolution.




No. You are correct about angular size, but we are not concerned about linear size at all. In fact, a faster f# (given two scopes of equal aperture) will not change the angular size of the Airy disk, since angular size is dependant only on aperture, not f#. F# will change the magnification, which is related to my discussion. Faster f#, since it would lower the magnification, in fact would make the apparent size of the object in the eyepiece smaller with the result being that it would be harder (not easier) to discern eyepiece performance wrt resolution.

The problem here lies in choosing stars that are too small (close) to actually see any critical detail at the resultant magnifications, while at the same time it is necessary to choose stars that must be at the borderline to show greater critical detail in one eyepiece versus the other. And while satisfying those criteria, refrain from creating any advantage in one observation over the other, ie. widely varient apparent size.

edz

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Alvin Huey]
      #3427047 - 11/03/09 09:28 AM

Quote:

How about some aperture? Perhaps Dan's 20" Obsession.




The problem with the SCTs and relectors, that would seriously trump a TEC140, is that the usual f/ls will result in magnifications approaching 500x. That would be fine if viewing conditions support that. How often is a 5mm ortho/supermono used with reflectors and SCTs? I don't believe I've ever attempted using a 5mm Supermono in my 7" Mak. Perhaps once out of curiosity.

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Edited by SteveC (11/03/09 09:40 AM)


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: SteveC]
      #3427236 - 11/03/09 11:30 AM

Well, I was gonna reserve the preaching for the next post, but I think we're coming dangerously close to getting wrapped around the axle here; too buried in semantics, technicalities and minutiae.

Last year, the World Cup was originally pitched as the "First Annual Eyepiece Resolution World Cup". Use of the term "Resolution" in connection with the test format, criteria, eyepiece and target selection, generated what seemed like seven hundred posts agonizing over whether our results would really be measuring contrast rather than resolution, or rather sharpness instead of contrast or resolution, or perhaps a combination of sharpness and contrast with a little transmission thrown in rather than resolution, or...You get the idea.

Deep breath. Let's stop wringing our hands. Smile. Be happy.

Okay. In deference to such concerns, last year we re-titled the exercise "Eyepiece resolution(TM) World Cup" and explained:

"(B) Semantics.

We originally titled this evaluation "The Eyepiece Resolution World Cup." Use of the term "resolution" drew considerable criticism. Several knowledgeable observers posited that seeing Trapezium E and F in theory would not really be a test for resolution. A 4-inch scope ought to be able to resolve targets with such wide separations as the A-E and C-F separations no matter what 7mm to 8mm eyepiece is used. It was suggested that we supplement the field testing with daytime testing using white-on-black USAF resolution targets or with currency. We discussed this, but declined to pursue such testing for reasons discussed below.

Rather than resolution it was also variously suggested that our evaluation might technically instead be showing contrast, sharpness, or some other characteristic that might or might not be related to resolution. My own feeling is that testing eyepieces for isolated characteristics like sharpness, contrast and resolution in a laboratory is fine if you want to know what those things look like in isolation, in a laboratory. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) few of us spend much observing time in a laboratory looking at laboratory type targets. In the field at night with dynamic conditions, luminous targets, inconsistent backgrounds, inconsistent luminosities, etc., I find it very difficult to ascertain whether I’m able to pick out a detail in one eyepiece but not in another because (a) my eyepiece has superior resolution, or (b) my eyepiece has superior sharpness, or (c) my eyepiece has superior contrast, or (d) a combination of one or more of these characteristics, or perhaps due to some other factors entirely.

Rather than try to attempt what Dan and I didn’t feel we were competent to or patient enough to complete, we instead made a decision to revise the title of the article and substitute "resolution™" for "Resolution". Rather than trying to determine which characteristic in a strict, technical sense was responsible for showing us more, we instead chose to go with the plain English meaning of "resolution" rather than the technical and scientific meaning. Ironically certain dictionary definitions of "resolution" resort to other terms like sharpness. In any case, for purposes of this report "resolution™" shall simply mean "the act or process of separating the Trapezium into constituent parts." That is rather than a characteristic of the eyepiece, the term describes the action of using the eyepiece to accomplish the stated task. We’ll say what we were able to see using each eyepiece on the chosen target. We’ll leave it up to you, the reader, to speculate on why we were able to see more using some eyepieces than others..."

To further elaborate, let's dig a little into the dichotomy of theory on one hand and practice on the other. In "theory" a 4-inch scope operating at 110x to 127x should have *no* trouble at all pulling in Tarpezium A-F provided that seeing and transparency cooperate. In "practice", one can read countless posts of in the Double Stars forum and elsewhere on CN where verteran and beginning observers alike struggle to pull in Trapezium F in 4- to 6-inch scopes. In the dry run of our own testing last year, we used a 6" refractor to test out a few of the eyepieces and were dismayed that the 6-incher pulled in only A-D under sloppy seeing conditions. Fortunately the conditions were much better two days later when we conducted the comparisons, but I think this illustrates what I mean by theory vs. practice.

Let's also look at the "World Cup" connection. There are probably few sporting events on the planet that compare to the World Cup in terms of consternation about fairness of match-ups, allegations of fraud and favoritism among the organizers, and raw emotion. Nationalism and sports fanaticism combine. In World Cup play, it doesn't matter that on game day it rains and the pitch is a soggy tragedy, or that France's star Zidane is allergic to mustard pollen and there's a field of mustard adjacent to the football facility. The game goes on and rarely does the worse team better the superior team, despite all of the things that "could have been better."

Next point. This is supposed to as much about fun as it is about gear. If you want clinical scientific reports, worried to dog-earedness and cross-referenced to to an encyclopedic bibliography, write them. The Eyepiece Hooligan and his mates can't and more importantly don't want to author such reports. There's little joy in them, and as a result the relevance to the majority of of observers is suspect.

Our targets need to be moderately challenging for the atmospheric variability, aperture and magnifications used. In the field, unlike in the basement, the number of variables that materially impact what is seen in the eyepiece is staggering. In practice, I've found that tasks which in theory ought to be accomplished comparably and handily by a given scope using a given magnification range, aren't, and that no matter how many times you try one lower magnification eyepiece consistently outperforms another higher magnification eyepiece, on-axis, on targets such as those being discussed for the World Cup. I don't know why. I could speculate, but don't feel the need to do so. I don't really care "why". I'm only after the "what" as in "what did eyepiece x show that eyepiece y could not". I'll leave the "why" to the more genteel and scholarly among us. Oh, and I promise I won't beat you up in the hall and take your milk money. I grew out of that long ago. Kidding of course. I had my milk money taken quite a few times actually.

So with that in mind, we're sticking with a mix of 4mm and 5mm eyepieces. We're looking for moderately challenging double stars (3 of 'em) for the aperture and magnification range described. We're hoping for decent seeing. We understand that there are flaws in the methods, flaws in the theory, and flaws in the socio-economic and cultural systems that sustain folks such as ourselves when there are species disappearing, children starving and ice caps melting. Nonetheless we ernestly hope that you enjoy our second little bit of "fluff" when we publish it.

Oh and as for BIG DOBs, I've honestly never looked through a Dob larger than about 12" that threw up anything but slightly soft, mushy, unsatisfying-compared-to-a-regractor stellar views. Probably a combination of miscollimation and lack of adequate cooling, but that's my experience. I know that sharp stellar views in Dobs exist. If the little'uns can do it, there's no reason the big'uns can't, but that's my experience and resulting bias. Also I don't think I'm alone. For example, in Sissy Haas' double star field guide "Double Stars for Small Telescopes: More Than 2,100 Stellar Gems for Backyard Observers," Sissy uses a refractor for most of her observations. Other observers she references use scopes up to about 12" of various designs. For some reason, however, very few of the reported observations were made using a big Dob. Surely these "pros" could afford whatever scope they wanted for their double star work. In fact an 18" to 20" premium Dob is no more (and likely less) expensive than a premium 5" to 6" refractor on a premium GEM.

Perhaps I am being a bit provincial, but I think there's actually value in NOT resorting to larger aperture reflectors for this particular comparo. Surely I'll be consumed by a pillar of fire or something for saying so, but hopefully it won't be until after we've finished the testing.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton

Edited by jrbarnett (11/03/09 11:35 AM)


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CounterWeight
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3427332 - 11/03/09 12:28 PM

Ed,

What about the Sparrow limit as criteria for limiting resoultion... supposed to be nearer the mark 'as observed'?

anyone, any thoughts?

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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #3427449 - 11/03/09 01:21 PM



I think you've got it!

- Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #3427482 - 11/03/09 01:42 PM

Quote:

Ed,

What about the Sparrow limit as criteria for limiting resoultion... supposed to be nearer the mark 'as observed'?

anyone, any thoughts?




Sparrow Limit represents a limit of detectability of overlapped disks, nowhere near a limit of seeing two disks separated.

edz

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3427551 - 11/03/09 02:12 PM

Quote:

Oh and as for BIG DOBs, I've honestly never looked through a Dob larger than about 12" that threw up anything but slightly soft, mushy, unsatisfying-compared-to-a-regractor stellar views. Probably a combination of miscollimation and lack of adequate cooling, but that's my experience.





That could be it, and in many cases I'm sure it would be. In some cases though, you may experience a certain, ahem, misalignment of expectations. A thought experiment is in order.

If you hold the magnification constant as you increase the aperture, the Airy disks get smaller and smaller, which theoretically would give you more pinpoint views in perfect seeing than in a smaller scope. However, while seeing conditions may permit the light for a star image to flutter around (geometrically-speaking, not physically) inside the big, fat apparent Airy disks of a small refractor, so that the Airy disk might at most appear to move slightly, the same might not be said of the slim Airy disks in the larger scope. (Please remember that we're holding magnification constant here and talking about what the eye sees, not what happens at prime focus.) The easiest way to carry out an experiment like this is to look through a big scope with these "mushy" star images and have a buddy progressively mask down the scope while you're looking through it. If the star images actually shrink, then the cause of the degradation is something else (like you said), but if the Airy disks simply expand to engulf the mushy star images as the scope gets masked down, then a different conclusion is in order.

Bottom line, I guess, is that if you're only used to smaller scopes, you might be giving the the smaller scopes an unfair "pass" because at any given magnification they are actually under-performing compared to the larger scope. Put differently, it's not really a good thing that one scope is less affected by seeing conditions than another. OTOH, it might be exactly what you want for an eyepiece comparison. Dunno.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3427630 - 11/03/09 02:51 PM

In practice the quality of an eyepiece is easy to determine based on how clearly it shows dim stars at the magnitude limit of the telescope. That's basically what happened last year and it was a good test. Find the dimmest possible star with eyepiece X - if Y finds a dimmer one or pulls in X more easily, it is almost certainly a better eyepiece in an objective sense. For some eyepiece pairs it will be no contest - for others a lot of X/Y back and forth will be needed. In any case it's a completely objective criterion and only needs a good high contrast scope and dark skies to test.

The complication is individual observer's eyes, so I would think you would make up a magnitude chart of a densely packed field down to 14th magnitude or so and let each observer find his own test objects, e.g. in the region of Orion's sword and belt. You also have there B33 as an arbiter of contrast.

-drl


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3427665 - 11/03/09 03:13 PM

Mike:

I completely understand the benefits of aperture on resolving power...in theory, and have experienced amazingly sharp, refractor-esque views with reflecting telescopes up to about 12". I've also owned and frequently view through scopes larger than 12". In practice, for me the bigger scopes have never delivered on their theoretical potential.

I am virtually certain that the reason for my experiences is a combination of imperfect collimation and incomplete cooling. The former ought to be fixable easily. The latter is harder to fix if the mirror is massive and the temperature drops very quickly throughout the night. Currently we're having 84-degree days and 42-degree nights. By the time a 60# piece of glass reaches equilibrium (if it ever reached equilibrium under these circumstances), we'd likely be watching the sunrise.

With 4 or 5 observers each viewing three targets through 10 different eyepieces for 3 to 5 minutes per eyepiece, we're already faced with the near impossible. In fact, I'm considering limiting the number of observers to three, and scaling back the number of targets to two, perhaps using Sirius as a third "tie-breaker" target. Alternately were we to have two TEC 140s and two 5-slot turrets, we could parallel process observations, but it's still a very time consuming exercise to be conducted in a single night.

I also find the correlation between published and semi-pro double star observers and smaller apertures (12" and under) to be "interesting". Were more aperture better for the task in practice rather than in theory, I would expect to see a larger number of semi-pros running big mirrored rigs than seem to do so.

In any case, it should be fun, moderately informative, mildly provocative and a shade irreverent, just like last year. We're not out to build the best mouse trap; we're out to build an entertaining one instead. If the mouse gets away, so be it.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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Mike Hosea
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3427900 - 11/03/09 05:24 PM

Quote:


I also find the correlation between published and semi-pro double star observers and smaller apertures (12" and under) to be "interesting". Were more aperture better for the task in practice rather than in theory, I would expect to see a larger number of semi-pros running big mirrored rigs than seem to do so.





I wasn't extolling the virtues of larger instruments, only speaking to your use of the term "refractor like". Because large refractors are rare as hen's teeth, peoples' idea of "refractor like" is shaped not only by the lack of obstruction and scatter, but also by modest aperture, generally 6" or less. Consequently, in addition to what people go on about regarding contrast and such, "refractor like" is also connected to less flattering things, too. I would not want a large scope that was too "refractor like", even if it were a large refractor, if you follow what I'm trying to say.

If you think it's collimation or cooling, few things are easier to confirm with a simple star test. There is little ambiguity in that. OTOH, if something else is going on, there are ways to get at that, too. It's just an aside, not really relevant to your plans. I mean, I didn't intend to make a case for you to do anything about it. I was just commenting on something you said.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
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  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3428122 - 11/03/09 07:50 PM

Ah yes, the "Second Annual World Cup Discussion of Resolution"


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #3428291 - 11/03/09 09:42 PM

I think matching 4mm eyepieces against 5mm eyepieces is inappropriate but I will never the less enjoy reading about your World Cup just as I enjoyed last years.

--------------------
Tom (Pegster)
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: square_peg]
      #3428458 - 11/03/09 11:30 PM

Quote:

I think matching 4mm eyepieces against 5mm eyepieces is inappropriate but I will never the less enjoy reading about your World Cup just as I enjoyed last years.




I agree. Doing 2 f/ls per year means that we'll done with the EP World Cup in about 15 years, give or take. What will we do then?

--------------------
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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: square_peg]
      #3428501 - 11/04/09 12:03 AM

Awwww, Pegster, what's an extra 45x among friends?

Seriously, though, I am thinking we can easily settle on 10 5mm eyepieces for this given all of the creative suggestions.

Of course we could also run a turret full of 4mm eyepieces for a total of 15 in 3 groups of 5. If we omit 4mm, we lose the ZAO-II. I would really like to have the ZAO-II square off against the 4mm TMB Supermono and perhaps the 3-6mm Nagler Zoom set to 4mm. I have a 4mm Meade Research Grade Orthoscopic and 4mm University Abbe Orthoscopic (or 4mm TMB Planetary) that could round out the 4mm set.

We're still noodling the format a bit. Thanks for the input.

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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deSitter
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3428527 - 11/04/09 12:30 AM

If that 4mm Meade wins we're going to have to call those eyepieces the Boise State of astronomy!

-drl


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Alvin Huey
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: SteveC]
      #3428602 - 11/04/09 02:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How about some aperture? Perhaps Dan's 20" Obsession.




The problem with the SCTs and relectors, that would seriously trump a TEC140, is that the usual f/ls will result in magnifications approaching 500x. That would be fine if viewing conditions support that. How often is a 5mm ortho/supermono used with reflectors and SCTs? I don't believe I've ever attempted using a 5mm Supermono in my 7" Mak. Perhaps once out of curiosity.




I use my 5mm Supermono or 5mm Tak LE on my 22" often. It may not be the sharpest view, but it does a pretty good job in busting apart very small galaxy groups or pairs.

I have to admit that the seeing isn't usually sufficient to use the 5mm on planets. But my 22" is fairly fast at a focal length of 2300mm, which is shorter than your 7" f/15 Mak or any SCT larger than 8". So it isn't so bad.

And I don't have any wide-field eyepieces, just the 20mm XW as a finder eyepiece. Wide-field eyepieces are "light hogs" as my buddy Jimi calls them.

--------------------
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Luigi
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Alvin Huey]
      #3428763 - 11/04/09 07:49 AM

Edz says >>>In fact, a faster f# (given two scopes of equal aperture) will not change the angular size of the Airy disk since angular size is dependant only on aperture, not f#. F# will change the magnification, which is related to my discussion. Faster f#, since it would lower the magnification, in fact would make the apparent size of the object in the eyepiece smaller with the result being that it would be harder (not easier) to discern eyepiece performance wrt resolution.<<<

Perhaps we're talking about the same thing in a different way. The way I'm looking at it is the OTA produces a real image (like what would fall on an image sensor at prime focus) and the EP magnifies that real image for visual viewing. For testing EPs, you might view a very fine resolution or MTF target placed at the focal plane of the EP. (simple EPs with no integral Barlow/Smyth lens). The finer and crisper that target, the better with which to evaluate the EP's performance. The OTA in his case is simply used to generate the real image to with which to test the EP, and the crisper and finer that real image, the better with which to evaluate the EP.

This is a bit simplistic because the OTA being used will introduce aberrations in the real image (e.g. field curvature) , aberrations that will add/subtract from aberrations of the EP. However, you still benefit from having the sharpest detail in that real image... the sharpest detail as measured by size, since it is a real image that's being examined.

--------------------
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Luigi]
      #3428832 - 11/04/09 09:01 AM

I suggest you read some reference papers on angular resolution and apparent size to understand why, as you suggested, "for a given focal length EP, a faster f/# will produce a smaller input to the EP making it easier to discern the EP performance wrt resolution", is not appropriate, nor would it make it easier to discern resolution.

edz

--------------------
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Rob E
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3428903 - 11/04/09 10:01 AM

Two Words

"Baader Planetarium"

--------------------
Rob E.
Some of us are actually paid to be funny.
------
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Luigi
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Rob E]
      #3429184 - 11/04/09 01:02 PM

Edz sez >>> "for a given focal length EP, a faster f/# will produce a smaller input to the EP making it easier to discern the EP performance wrt resolution<<<

Angular size of the Airy disk is inversely proportional to aperture. Linear size is directly proportional to focal length. Focal length/aperture= f/#

A 50mm f/12 will produce a lot larger Airy disk than a 50mm f/6. If I'm testing EPs, I want a more detailed real image to use the EP on.


--------------------
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Zeiss, Leica, Fujinon, Nikon, Pentax, Bushnell bins


Edited by Luigi (11/04/09 02:58 PM)


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Lake Sky
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Luigi]
      #3429268 - 11/04/09 01:47 PM

I say this year toss out all eyepieces no longer available new .

Let's make it market current and market interesting by comparing new native 5 mm eyepieces AND a few barlowed eyepieces such as Ethos 10/ 2X Powermate as suggested . In my experience, I prefer a barlowed Ethos to native Nagler of similar focal lenghth on double stars and it would be intersting if others find the same result in a " shootout ".


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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Lake Sky]
      #3429309 - 11/04/09 02:13 PM

You must be a mind reader...

On further review, I agree that the magnification difference of ~20% between 4mm and 5mm units is just too large to ignore. Last year's World cup spanned a ~13% difference without ill effect (i.e., the four quarter finalists out of the original twenty featured both 7mm and 8mm eyepieces). Accordingly I would like no greater a magnification delta than the delta last year.

I would also really like to have a ZAO-II and TMB Supermono in the mix. Rightly or wrongly, I view these as the "platinum standard" against which all other eyepieces are measured when it comes to resolution, contrast and sharpness, despite their used-only availability.

This means that we'll exclude 5mm eyepieces - this year. I'd like to re-focus on eyepieces in the 3.5mm to 4mm range. I am looking for 10 of them. The magnification difference between a 3.5mm and 4mm in the TEC is about 12.5%; that is, less than the insignificant delta last year.

To keep to 10, and to make the report more practically relevant, I think limiting participation to currently available eyepieces (and the ZAO-II and TMB Supermono, of course) makes loads of sense.

Here are some candidates:

3.5mm Nagler Type 6
3mm to 6mm Nagler Zoom
4mm Radian
3.5mm Pentax XW
3.5mm Baader Hyperion
3.5mm Vixen LVW
4mm ZAO-II
4mm University Abbe Orthoscopic
4mm TMB Supermono
4mm TMB Planetary
3.6mm Takahashi LE

Other suggestions are welcome,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton

Edited by jrbarnett (11/04/09 02:14 PM)


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Mike Hosea
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3429363 - 11/04/09 02:54 PM

What no 3.7mm Orion Epic ED?

A couple of others:

4mm Vixen NLV
3.8mm Ultrascopic

I would totally understand not wanting to get into the business of comparing Barlowed alternatives as well, since that gets the Barlows themselves into the mix, but just for grins, you might want to consider a "brand homogeneous" Barlow combination or two. I think the one that would be of most interest would be the 8mm TV Plossl in a 1.25" 2x TV Barlow. Maybe consider just that one.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3429419 - 11/04/09 03:30 PM

Having one Barlowed entrant sounds interesting. "Conventional wisdom" suggests that the Barlowed unit should under-perform the others, but will it? After all, several of the listed eyepieces actually include an integrated "Barlow" in the glass stack.

I also like the idea of using a Televue 2x Barlow and 8mm Televue Plossl. This "keeps it all in the family" in terms of coatings and specifications, and the 8mm Televue Plossl is readily available and ubiquitous.

Thanks Mike,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3429498 - 11/04/09 04:11 PM

Quote:

I agree that the magnification difference of ~20% between 4mm and 5mm units is just too large to ignore.




25%, not 20. the 4mm has 25% higher magnification and will produce a 25% larger image, giving a 25% advantage.


Quote:

The magnification difference between a 3.5mm and 4mm in the TEC is about 12.5%;




14+% , greatest variance, denomiator is lowest power. 3.5mm eyepiece will produce 14% larger image than 4mm eyepieces.

edz

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PJ Anway
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3429608 - 11/04/09 05:02 PM

Quote:

Other suggestions are welcome




4mm CZJ
3.8mm Pentax XP

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3429700 - 11/04/09 07:00 PM

Aww Ed, what's a few percentage points among friends?

What's you opinion on the significance of the 14% magnification difference? I presume that it will really depend on the targets.

Thanks again for the double star list you posted in the Double Stars forum. I'll be taking a look at a few of the listed stars this weekend to size them up for the Cup.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

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lightfever
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3429811 - 11/04/09 08:00 PM

Quote:

Other suggestions are welcome




Hey Jim, how about the 4.9mm Siebert Starsplitter, I have been wondering about these as as upgrade from the TMB Planetaries.

I'm sure others would be interested.

--------------------
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orveko
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: lightfever]
      #3429827 - 11/04/09 08:09 PM

I again second the Star Splitter (wait, can I second a third request of something I first-ed?). That 3.9mm is looking up to the challenge.

--------------------
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Svezda
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3430568 - 11/05/09 08:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

we are looking at discrete on-axis targets, and considering only whether the stars are split and if so, how cleanly.





[edited] ...Any notion that magnification plays no role in the outcome is ill-conceived.

edz




This is very true - but you also have to worry about the fact that among a group of '5mm eyepieces' you will probably have a focal length spread from 4.7 - 5.3, if not even a wider spread. This means that mags used will actually vary considerably even using a group of the 'same' focal length oculars.


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3430706 - 11/05/09 09:56 AM

Quote:

Aww Ed, what's a few percentage points among friends?

What's you opinion on the significance of the 14% magnification difference? I presume that it will really depend on the targets.




It's not so much the differences in percents as it is the up-side-down math, and perhaps not realizing it's up-side-down.

Your 14% differences in last year's tests would be duplicated by testing 3.5mm vs 4mm. They were almost inconsequential last year since you didn't really use the eyepieces to test resolution. You tested stars that were so wide they could be seen in smaller scopes at only moderate power. I've seen E-Trap in my 80mm at 75x-80x. BUT, you've indicated a different approach for this year and by all indications it seems to be your intent to use targets this year that will be a test near the resolution limits. A 14% difference in magnification would be a significant difference on resolution limit double stars.

edz

--------------------
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3430747 - 11/05/09 10:18 AM

Jim:
With many of us utilizing these short fl ep's for galaxy hunting have you considered threshold testing viewing of an object?

Jim

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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Jim Curry]
      #3430895 - 11/05/09 11:45 AM

Interesting Jim Curry. I hadn't considered using galaxies to test threshold. I suppose such a test would be influenced by contrast and throughput/transmission. Hmm...

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3430923 - 11/05/09 12:00 PM

EdZ:

I agree that Trapezium E is pretty much a cakewalk. The real test last year was Trapezium F rather than E.

Figure that last year with 102mm of aperture and between 110x and 127x, Trapezium F yielded results that varied by eyepiece. Put aside whether the test really measures contrast, sharpness, resolution, nothing, and instead lend me your knowledge about the effects of disparate brightness, spectral types, etc., on the ability to split double stars.

We are trying to replicate the same level of difficulty as Trapezium F in 4-incher at 110x to 127x, but instead want to use a 5.5-incher and 245x to 280x.

With that as the goal, what well-positioned winter double star candidates would you suggest? I was going to go about it by trial and error in the weeks leading up to the test; use the test set-up to observe many of the double stars recommended by you, PJ and others, and try to find two or three that are comparable in difficulty to Trapezium F using last year's test bed. I'm sure there's a more efficient way to quantify last year's difficulty level and apply it to the new aperture and magnification parameters, but I don't know what it is.

In other words, let's not worry about whether the targets are truly "resolution limit double stars" but instead look at difficulty matching: 102mm/110-127x/Trap F vs. 140mm/245-280x/???

Thanks for your help,

Jim

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3431109 - 11/05/09 01:26 PM

"What no 3.7mm Orion Epic ED?"

Jim, I know this was brought up to be funny but I REALLY think it would be awesome to throw this ocular into the mix. I've never tried one but have heard only negative things about it. I'd be interested in seeing the results up against the other glass.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Patricko]
      #3431191 - 11/05/09 02:08 PM

Clearly there are more than 10 eyepieces in the selected focal length range that folks are interested in having reviewed. Nonetheless, we really need to stick to 10, and with two slots irrevocable taken by the 4mm ZAO-II and 4mm TMB Supermono, that really means that we have only 8 slots to fill. We're looking at several testers, several targets and one night, so time is a precious commodity on test night.

Here's what I propose. Let's first see if the test conceived for this year's World Cup yields results showing differentiation between the eyepieces that get tested. This will depend a lot on the seeing on the night of the test, and on the choice of targets. If they're too easy for the seeing and test bed (5.5" apochromat running 245x to 280x of magnification) there won't be much if any differentiation. If the targets are too challenging, the result may be similar with only one or two eyepieces making the grade. This would result in us not learning much about the relative performance of the under-performing units, one to another.

If we luck out and get the kind of differentiation between eyepieces we achieved last year, then what I would be willing to do is repeat the testing with smaller lots (one or two untested eyepieces against one or two well-scoring eyepieces). This would at least give an idea as to how eyepieces that didn't make it into the 8 slots might have fared on test night.

I'm actually having a harder time picking targets than I am picking eyepieces to throw into the mix.

Regards,

Jim

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3431305 - 11/05/09 02:58 PM

Quote:

EdZ:
lend me your knowledge about the effects of disparate brightness, spectral types, etc., on the ability to split double stars.

We are trying to replicate the same level of difficulty as Trapezium F in 4-incher at 110x to 127x




well first - equal magnitude doubles useful for testing resolution, much easier to see than UNequal magnitude doubles.
blue (O,B, A) stars are much easier to see than red (G,K,M) stars. In the same scope, blue stars have smaller Airy disks, red stars have larger Airy disks. So, for the common resolution limit that we are all familiar with, that we think of for our scopes, (call it 1 arcsec for your scope) ,blue stars at that limit would be easier to see split , and red stars probably would not be seen split at all.

bright stars have central bright disks that are larger than the central bright disk of faint stars. So moderately bright stars are much easier to split (up to a point). So moderately bright is the best bet. If you select stars that are too bright, the central disks are so large you might not be able to separate stars at the limit of your scope. A scope with a common resolution limit of 1 arcsec probably could not split a mag3 pair at 1 arcsec.

Once you get too faint they are much harder and require much more magnification to see. two stars of 9th magnitude might require 50% wider separation beyond the Rayleigh Limit criterion before they can be observed as split. A scope that can resolve two 6th mag stars at 2” may not be able to resolve 8th or 9th mag stars unless they are separated by at least 3”.

now UNequal magnitude doubles
degree of difficulty increases with difference in magnitude and even moreso with how close the fainter secondary approaches the LM of the scope being used. mag3/mag8 and mag5/mag10 both have a difference of 5 magnitudes, but the mag10 star is going to be much closer to the LM of any scope. That pair will be very much more difficult.

placement of UNequal secondary can considerably alter difficulty. if an unequal pair with a secondary 3 to 4 magnitudes fainter has that secondary placed right on the first diffraction ring, it is going to be harder to see than you would expect. The center of the first ring is at approx 1.4 times the Rayliegh limit of your scope. for a 140mm scope that is about 1arcsec, but depending on color can vary from 0.9" to 1.1". So don't pick uneven doubles that have 1.3 to 1.5" arcsec separation.

Many discuss limits of the eye’s acuity with respect to double star resolution. Well, we can't know the acuity of each person, but we do know some things about acuity. There is a much different average limit for bright daylight (~1 arcmin), night viewing (~3 arcmin), resolution threshold viewing (~4 arcmin) and faint star mag. 9+/- viewing (~5 arcmin) due to inefficiencies in the eye. These are approximates. But this means for instance, if you hope to see a mag9 pair resolved, you need to raise it to a size of approx 5 arcmin, or 300 arcsec. If the pair is 3 arcsec wide, then you will need a minimum of 100x to see it.

If the pair is both faint and unequal, an unequal mag7/mag9, and is separated near the resolution limit of the scope, you haven't got much chance at all of splitting it. Knowing your own visual acuity will help you determine the magnification needed to see resolved images.

PJ has a much more extensive list than mine. Not sure if it includes color, but that can be searched.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3431327 - 11/05/09 03:08 PM

Quote:


It's not so much the differences in percents as it is the up-side-down math, and perhaps not realizing it's up-side-down.





To me it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other. If A is 25% larger than B, then B is 20% smaller than A. There's nothing inherently "upside down" about putting it either way. To avoid ambiguity we should avoid saying, simply, that there's a certain percentage difference without indicating which value of the two this difference is "with respect to". Clearly, when comparing to some other difference, one should go the same way.

I have to say, though, that this keeps reminding me of a Dilbert cartoon, seen here in animated form. Wally's math skills

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: PJ Anway]
      #3431414 - 11/05/09 03:57 PM

>>>I suggest you read some reference papers on angular resolution<<<

Edz,

I took your advice. Telescope Optics, Rutten and van Venrooij, section 4.5, page 41. "The linear size of the Airy disk remains the same because this diameter depends solely on upon the focal ratio and wavelength, and not the aperture."

A smaller Airy disk gives a finer target with which to evaluate EP performance. A big fat Airy disk won't test the resolution capability of an EP.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Luigi]
      #3431460 - 11/05/09 04:27 PM

visual observing does not concern itself at all with the linear size of the Airy disk, only the angular size. I suggest you research a bit deeper.

edz

sorry for continuing to respond to questions that are quite aside the nature of this thread. However, there are several readers in this thread that have questions regarding resolution. Hopefully for their benefit, I've cut and pasted here just a few excerpts out of an article on Resolution i wrote a number of years ago.

Suiter: “The Rayleigh resolution criterion is met when the separation of the two objects is precisely at the radius of the theoretical Airy disk. In other words, the second star is placed on the valley between the first star’s central disk and the first diffraction ring.”

Diffraction of light produces the Airy pattern, which appears as a central bright disk, the spurious disk, surrounded by concentric dark and bright rings. The radius to the point of minimum light within the first dark ring, the minima, is at the physical distance r = 1.22 lambda F, or alternatively, the angular distance A = 1.22 lambda / D. This gives the angular radius of the Airy disk in radians. Lambda is the wavelength of the light observed and D is the diameter of the scope in the same units. The formula is usually based on the wavelength of light to which we are most sensitive, that for yellow light, 5500 Angstroms or 550 nanometers. The Airy disk will be slightly larger for longer wavelengths, red light and slightly smaller for shorter wavelengths, blue light.

As aperture increases, the Airy disk gets smaller and hence a larger lens has a greater resolving power. However the Airy disk is always the same size for a given aperture at a given wavelength of light.

the Airy disk angular size is determined by aperture and the wavelength of the light observed. As aperture increases, angular size of the Airy disk decreases. Also, the size of the Airy disk varies as wavelength varies.

Regardless of the type of scope in use, the Airy disk is dependant on aperture. Given equal aperture, the type of scope in use will not change the size of the Airy disk

The two most commonly used criteria for measuring limits of resolution are Rayleigh limit and Dawes limit.

Rayleigh Limit = 5.45/D inches = 138/Dmm. Rayleigh Limit is a measure defining the limit at which two components can be clearly identified as “separate” components. It defines the distance between the centers of two Airy disks where the maximum of one is placed over the minimum of the other. Rayleigh Limit is a measure that correlates to the wave nature of light.

Kitchin: The angular resolution is equal to the Rayleigh limit, where separation between two stars is considered as achieved when the stars are just touching.

Dawes Limit = 4.56/D inches = 116/Dmm. Dawes is not a measure dependant on the wave nature of light. It was empirically determined to represent a point of minimum separation where a double can be noticed as two components. It is the first point at which a noticeable notch allows a determination that two components exist.

Sidgwick: Resolving power is dependant on wavelength of the light observed and the diameter of the objective. The radius of the Airy disk is also referred to as the resolving power of the telescope.

Resolving power is not completely independent of the magnitude of the light observed

Beiser: The angular radius of the Airy disk out to the first minima is represented as: A = 1.22 lambda / D

Kitchin: The resolution of the eye is 3 to 5 minutes of arc; therefore a minimum magnification must be utilized to enlarge the image sufficiently to exceed the eye’s resolution. Therefore minimum magnification of about 1300Dmeters or 30Dinches is needed to realize the potential limiting resolution of the optics.

Rayleigh or Dawes limits usually cannot be reached when viewing doubles that are very bright, have widely varying magnitudes or are very faint. These are more difficult conditions.

Though two points may be resolved in the focal plane, they will not be seen as resolved unless a high enough magnification is employed to allow the eye to perceive the separation. This will vary with the individual user. Point images need to subtend an angle of at least 1 arcmin or the eye cannot see two points. This would yield a magnification of 13Dinches. In the case of stellar images, the value is nearer to 2 or 3arcmin and these yield 24D to 36Dinches.

Porcellino: “The resolving power of a telescope is applied most often to double stars, but that is not the only area where it is important. It dictates such things as the sharpness of detail visible on a planetary disk …or the moon. …”

Any feature that does not have angular dimension greater than the Rayleigh Limit, the limit of the telescope’s ability to resolve, cannot be observed as anything smaller than the Airy disk.

this certainly in not complete and, for the reader who wishes to understand resolution, may leave you with more questions than answers. Please refer to the article Understanding resolution in the CN Technical Reports section.

edz




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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3431511 - 11/05/09 04:54 PM

EdZ:

You've shared your tools and advice, but I wanted *you* to build the house!

Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any suggestions on pairs that in a 140mm at 245x to 280x would be comparably challenging to the Trapezium C-F pair (4.2" separation; 5.1 magnitude difference) in a 102mm at 110x to 127x?

Thanks,

Jim

--------------------
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3431531 - 11/05/09 05:03 PM

I must admit, it isn't clear to me why double stars necessarily would be effective targets for isolating differences in the performance of eyepieces per se, rather than for comparing system resolution, but I suppose if you can see something with one eyepiece and not another of the same focal length, and if this holds up consistently from scope to scope, that really does say something.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3431533 - 11/05/09 05:03 PM

Yes. See the article I referenced above.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3431603 - 11/05/09 05:40 PM

Quote:

Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have any suggestions on pairs that in a 140mm at 245x to 280x would be comparably challenging to the Trapezium C-F pair (4.2" separation; 5.1 magnitude difference) in a 102mm at 110x to 127x?

Thanks,

Jim




I am assuming you are going to do this before Sagittarius gets too low.

The C & D stars in HN40, the multiple star at the heart of the Trifid Nebula, might be worth considering. C is doable in a 4" scope. D is very tough in anything under 8" and requires superb conditions and a very high quality optical combination when chased in smaller apertures.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: ausastronomer]
      #3431712 - 11/05/09 06:39 PM

Ed - just curious why use the Rayleigh and Dawes and no mention of Sparrow limit? just curious why the omission and the previous response that it is not relevant somehow. If it's not relevant then why the references to Dawes and Rayleigh? Just curious, the PSF used for all is the same, it's still apples and apples.

[dit] the web reference I cited specifically mentions it's relevance to "splitting close doubles" and the resolution with respect to spatial frequency... difference in planetary detail vs. galactic detail vs. close doubles... it's near the bottom of the page, seems to directly contradict your POV as stated.

Edited by CounterWeight (11/05/09 07:27 PM)


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #3431796 - 11/05/09 07:39 PM

here's a web reference or two? for doubles and spectra and etc...

WDS USNO reference

doubles calculator

Although not strictly doubles, Burnhams includes a list of double and multiple stars in each constellation description... includes some errata incl spectral class in the notes for each.

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Edited by CounterWeight (11/05/09 07:53 PM)


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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3432065 - 11/05/09 10:29 PM

Edz said not to use unequal doubles at 1.4 times the Rayleigh limit, because a secondary 3-4 magnitudes dimmer than the primary will be hard to detect sitting on the first diffraction ring. What if the magnitude difference between primary and secondary is only 1-1.5?

In the double star forum I listed three unequal doubles at 1.3-1.8" separation with a magnitude difference of 1.1-1.4, that ought to be a challenge for your testing setup. They are in an attachment in the posting just above Edz's.
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: EdZ]
      #3432170 - 11/05/09 11:50 PM

I never knew you needed to be a rocket scientist to look through an eyepiece.

My wife once conducted a business meeting a few years ago and just before she walked into the meeting one of her direct reports ran up to her and told her not to use the phrase - you don't have to be a rocket scientist. When my wife inquired - why?, she was told - because half the people in that room are rocket scientists.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #3432362 - 11/06/09 06:02 AM

Quote:

Ed - just curious why use the Rayleigh and Dawes and no mention of Sparrow limit? just curious why the omission and the previous response that it is not relevant somehow. If it's not relevant then why the references to Dawes and Rayleigh? Just curious, the PSF used for all is the same, it's still apples and apples.

[dit] the web reference I cited specifically mentions it's relevance to "splitting close doubles" and the resolution with respect to spatial frequency... difference in planetary detail vs. galactic detail vs. close doubles... it's near the bottom of the page, seems to directly contradict your POV as stated.




As I mention above, and as is clearly shown in the diagrams in Licha's article, Sparrow limit is a measure that at best would show two stars barely elongated, not even peanut shaped. It is a limit that probaly is more useful to describe a separation at which the "detection" of two stars is just possible. ( I referred to Licha's article when I wrote mine in 2003).

Observing stars at Sparrow limit would not allow you to see any distinct parts of the diffraction pattern. The star disks would be approx 40-60% overlapped. You would have difficulty to tell it was two stars. You would not see two distinct first diffraction rings, they would be blended into one. Not only would there NOT be any space between the two stars, but there would be no distinguishable depth to the nocth between the two stars. In fact, that is the definition of Sparrow limit, the point at which there is no detectable drop in the intensity of light between the two components.

Frankly, Sparrow limit is not what is normally referred to when discussing the resolution limit of a scope (see my citations above). It is not indicative of seeing doubles separated, and it certainly is not what we think of for discussion of extended object resolution. Sparrow Limit is about what I saw with my small scopes 2-3 years ago when Porrima was at closest, approx 0.5-0.6 arcseconds. Sparrow limit provides very little detail in the image for scrutiny, unless of course the goal is just to find the minimum detection limit of the scope by observing first noticable elongation.

FWIW, Rayleigh Limit is the definition of the size of the Airy disk. An understanding of the Rayleigh Limit (the Airy disk formula) allows you to calculate the size of the Airy disk and the central visible disk for the scope in use and the target you choose. Having that information, you can even predict accurately where the secondary will be positioned with respect to the spacing of the light or dark rings. Neither Sparrow nor Dawes provides that information.

Both Sparrow and Dawes are way beyond the scope of what are the intended targets for Jim's observing session. Even Rayleigh limit stars are beyond the scope of his intent, however, at least Rayleigh limit provides an understanding of the size of the features you see in the diffraction pattern when you do look at double stars. Even when you choose stars that are wider than the Rayleigh limit, although the separation between them varies with your choiceof stars, each of the individual diffraction patterns dimensions are still based on the Rayleigh limit (the Airy disk formula).

Understanding the dimensions of the Rayleigh limit is like having a ready made measuring micrometer in view in your scope. I trust you would understand how useful that might be for the purpose of quantifying differences in resolution.

edz

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: CounterWeight]
      #3432429 - 11/06/09 08:02 AM

EdZ,

We'll have to agree to disagree. I understand afocal systems, and an OTA and an EP taken together form an afocal system; angle in vs angle out. The OTA and the EP themselves are focal devices. That is, they work on a real image. The OTA creates the real image, and the EP works on that real image to create a virtual image at infinity that is examined by the eye. The concept of the linear image scale is central to AP, where you need to know how big an object is gong to be on you sensor, usually measured in mm. The concept of using an EP to examine and qualify that image is certainly central to the use of bifilar micrometer EPs used in astrometry. Here the linear micrometer readout combined with the focal length of the OTA determines the angular size/separation of objects.

My point is simply this, to optimally test an EP, it is best to produce a challenging real images with which to test it. A real image with the finest scale detail and one with subtle shadings will be best. Select and OTA and objects that produce this.

As mentioned, (and cited from Telescope Optics) the size of the finest detail in a real image is the Airy disk and its linear size is only a function of f/#. If uou want to produce very fine detail to test the EP, use a fast OTA. If you want to ensure that the detail is limited by the OTA's resolution and not seeing? Use a small scope. A fast small scope will produce a real image with the smallest detail with which to evaluate EP performance.

A scope that produces a big blurry real image (think unequillibrated 10" SCT in poor seeing) won't be much of a challenge for the EP.

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: SteveC]
      #3432636 - 11/06/09 10:50 AM

"I never knew you needed to be a rocket scientist to look through an eyepiece."

Wait...uh Steve...you mean that you're *not* a rocket scientist?

How'd you get in here...

SECURITY! WE HAVE A BREACH IN THE EYEPIECES FORUM!

Seriously though, since we've established that you don't really have the credentials to be using all of that fine gear, you may as well send me your ZAO-IIs, TMB Supermonos and your TEC.

I'll make sure they're up to snuff and tell you all about what I see through them with a trained eye. Heck, I'm such a good pal I might even draw a picture or two for you.

Regards,

Jim

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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3432667 - 11/06/09 11:03 AM

Quote:

Wait...uh Steve...you mean that you're *not* a rocket scientist?

How'd you get in here...

Jim




I'm a...........nuclear physicist, yah, that's the ticket, a nuclear physicist.

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TEC 110 (on order)
SolarMax 40

Losmandy G-11 w/Gemini, DM-6 w/Sky Commander on SV wood tripod, Vixen Skypod

TEC EP Turret, TMB Supermonos, ZAO II, Naglers, 32mm Konig, 24mm Panoptics, 14mm Meade UWA


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Svezda
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: deSitter]
      #3434342 - 11/07/09 09:50 AM

Quote:

In practice the quality of an eyepiece is easy to determine based on how clearly it shows dim stars at the magnitude limit of the telescope. That's basically what happened last year and it was a good test. Find the dimmest possible star with eyepiece X - if Y finds a dimmer one or pulls in X more easily, it is almost certainly a better eyepiece in an objective sense. For some eyepiece pairs it will be no contest - for others a lot of X/Y back and forth will be needed. In any case it's a completely objective criterion and only needs a good high contrast scope and dark skies to test.

The complication is individual observer's eyes, so I would think you would make up a magnitude chart of a densely packed field down to 14th magnitude or so and let each observer find his own test objects, e.g. in the region of Orion's sword and belt. You also have there B33 as an arbiter of contrast.

-drl



Very good point that's hard to argue against - if one ep shows fainter stars than another, all other things being equal, it is a better ocular. If one shows stars not as faint but has other advantages such as huge AFOV then that can offset seeing less faint stars. For me, though, this would be my criterion of choice. It also implies superior sharpness because one ep could hardly show fainter stars than another unless it had superior sharpness (and likely better contrast as well).


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kaaikop
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Svezda]
      #3434532 - 11/07/09 11:47 AM



--------------------
Benoit, RASC Montreal

-C9.25 on EQ6 Pro - C6/ED80 on Portamount
-TV Plossls, Radians, Nags, Pans, UO Orthos.


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Svezda
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: kaaikop]
      #3434757 - 11/07/09 02:14 PM

Quote:





Thanks for your friendly comment, monsieur. I'll be sure to take it into account when I read your comments or posts.


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kaaikop
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Svezda]
      #3435035 - 11/07/09 05:16 PM

Svezda, I am sorry, I was not bashing at your comment in particular, but rather at the direction this thread was going...

I guess I'm a little frustrated by a solid month of cloudy skies and no observing...
Didn't mean to be rude to anyone in particular

--------------------
Benoit, RASC Montreal

-C9.25 on EQ6 Pro - C6/ED80 on Portamount
-TV Plossls, Radians, Nags, Pans, UO Orthos.


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Svezda
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: kaaikop]
      #3435736 - 11/08/09 02:02 AM

Quote:

Svezda, I am sorry, I was not bashing at your comment in particular, but rather at the direction this thread was going...

I guess I'm a little frustrated by a solid month of cloudy skies and no observing...
Didn't mean to be rude to anyone in particular



I think it was very easy to make this mistake(to think that you commented that I was a boring poster) since you actually quoted my comment and then added 'zzzzzzz' instead of simply making a new comment of your own. It is a lesson to me not to do this same thing accidentally myself. I'm glad it wasn't me who put you to sleep.


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BillP
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3436346 - 11/08/09 12:56 PM

Quote:

Awwww, Pegster, what's an extra 45x among friends?

Seriously, though, I am thinking we can easily settle on 10 5mm eyepieces for this ... If we omit 4mm, we lose the ZAO-II. I would really like to have the ZAO-II square off against the 4mm TMB Supermono and perhaps the 3-6mm Nagler Zoom set to 4mm. I have a 4mm Meade Research Grade Orthoscopic and 4mm University Abbe Orthoscopic (or 4mm TMB Planetary) that could round out the 4mm set.





Jim, Why don't you just run the 4mms and the 5mm seperately? So have two competitions going in parallel. You can still evaluate it as if it were one and rank them all as a single set, then afterwards seperate the 4's from the 5's keeping their relative positions to each other within their respective groups for the new group-specific ranking. This way you can get the ease of one ranking method and keep everyone happy about any difference from magnifications.

As far as what difference would 45x make? Well it will of course allow you to pull in fainter magnitudes. How much? Using the calculator here, for the TEC 140 under Mag 6 skies with it set to "Good" Seeing, the 4mm EP will get you down to a Mag 14.0 star whereas the 5mm EP will get you down to a Mag 13.8. So you get a 0.2 Mag advantage with the 4mm.

So from a theoretical standpoint, obvious that the 4mm will have an advantage and feel it would be best to run the final rankings as 2 sets for each FL seperately. However, from the practical standpoint I would also like to see the results of both sets together as if I'm making a purchase decision and the ease of catching a dim star is what I'm after, then the results might swing me to a particular single purchase. What would be interesting as well, would be if a 5mm EP catches the dimest star and a 4mm doesn't. This would concern me a little and make me wonder if the contrast or througput of the 4mm is a little underpar as a possibility.

So bottom line is that I think showing the ranking results both ways is really benefitial for different reasons. I would advocate running the comeptition as is ranking the entire group as one, then displaying three sets of data, 1) the combined group's ranking, 2) the 4mm-only group's ranking, and 3) the 5mm-Only group's rankings. So you'll have the Grand winner, then the 4mm winner and the 5mm winner, and people can gleen from the 3 data sets what they need.

--------------------
Bill Paolini
XT10i Dob---TSA-102 S-APO---APM80/480 S-APO--- P.S.T.
TMB Supermonos---Meade UWAs---TV Panoptic---AT Titan II ED
To your own eyes be true...


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LDb
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: BillP]
      #3436417 - 11/08/09 01:43 PM

Hi Jim

Would you like to borrow my 4mm Brandon? Be happy to send it on to you for inclusion if you like.

Don Yeier made it for me around 1990 from the original old optics they had in storage.



Let me know.

Best regards, and clear skies,
Howard

--------------------
10" LX200R-UHTC (on ScopeBuggy which is terrific)
ETX-90-RA
ATM'ed-8"f/8 and 4.25"f/10 planetary Newtonians
Brandon eyepieces: 48mm,32mm,24mm,7/8",12mm,16mm,8mm,6mm,4mm (yes-4mm; special build in 1985 from 1960 optics)
Double set for binoviewing
Dakin 2.4x Barlow
Vintage ep's:
Gailand 7mm WF, 16.3mm (THE Galoc), Bertele 18mm
Siebert Optics:
Black Knight BinoViewer, 0.6x-1x-2x Power Wheel, 4x-8x telecentric zoom barlow
Astro-Tech Titan WF ep's: 38mm, 32mm, 26mm, 20mm, 15mm, 10mm

Edited by LDb (11/08/09 01:51 PM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: LDb]
      #3436576 - 11/08/09 03:04 PM



I would love to include a 4mm Brandon in the mix (and I know the secret Brandon handshake, and will likely be buried with my set), but...if we put another hard-to-get 4mm in the mix, we end up with only 7-slots for easily obtainable 4mm units.

Here's what I'm thinking. We'll do the test with ten units; two perhaps hard to get but widely regarded as the "class of the class" and the rest pretty much available off-the-shelf. Once the ink is dry on that comparo, I would be delighted to do a follow-up where I take a couple of the best from the test and match them up in similar testing to some other 3.5mm to 4mm eyepiece "exotica" that weren't featured.

To Bill P's point, I think we'll save 5mm units for another day and perhaps some broader testing including planets, the Moon and some transmission comparisons using an open cluster.

Regards,

Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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LDb
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3436668 - 11/08/09 04:04 PM

Hi Jim,

OK - no problem, Let me know anytime and I'll be happy to send it on for your insightful analysis. Typical Brandon in all respects from my experience and certainly the ~3mm ER is short but, the view is all Brandon. I must also say that I really like the results from an 8mm Brandon in the Dakin 2.4X Barlow. Very nice indeed.

Anyhow -- I'll send it when you'd like to play with it.

Looking forward to your World Cup results.

Howard

--------------------
10" LX200R-UHTC (on ScopeBuggy which is terrific)
ETX-90-RA
ATM'ed-8"f/8 and 4.25"f/10 planetary Newtonians
Brandon eyepieces: 48mm,32mm,24mm,7/8",12mm,16mm,8mm,6mm,4mm (yes-4mm; special build in 1985 from 1960 optics)
Double set for binoviewing
Dakin 2.4x Barlow
Vintage ep's:
Gailand 7mm WF, 16.3mm (THE Galoc), Bertele 18mm
Siebert Optics:
Black Knight BinoViewer, 0.6x-1x-2x Power Wheel, 4x-8x telecentric zoom barlow
Astro-Tech Titan WF ep's: 38mm, 32mm, 26mm, 20mm, 15mm, 10mm


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Richard Low
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3437417 - 11/09/09 02:05 AM

I just got my 4mm Brandon last week but it has clouded since.... so I would be really keen & looking forward to see how it compares with the rest of the 4mm eyepieces. Btw, whats the secret handshake?

I would also suggest to include the Pentax XP 3.8mm in your turret, which imo, to be comparable & slightly edged out my Supermono 4mm in some categories. I have not compared with my ZAO-II 4mm yet.

--------------------
Richard Low

Minolta Activa7x35w, Pentax8x40PCFwp2, Nikon Monarch10x42, VixenBT80M-A, DenkII-PxS
PST, SV-F80, 4.5"Starblast, C5, 6"f/8 refractor, Mewlon210, 11"f/5AstroSky, 15"f/4.5dob(building)
XWs, XPs, XOs, ZAO-IIs, Supermonos, TV nag/pan/rad/plos



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leonard
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Luigi]
      #3437647 - 11/09/09 09:01 AM

Hello Luigi ,

>>>>>As mentioned, (and cited from Telescope Optics) the size of the finest detail in a real image is the Airy disk and its linear size is only a function of f/#. If uou want to produce very fine detail to test the EP, use a fast OTA. If you want to ensure that the detail is limited by the OTA's resolution and not seeing? Use a small scope. A fast small scope will produce a real image with the smallest detail with which to evaluate EP performance. <<<<<<

I always had the idea that the size of the Airy disk was determined solely by the diameter of the objective and that focal ratio had nothing to do with it.
A 4 inch f10 and a 4 inch f5 will have the same size Airy disk . Is this not true ????????????

Thanks , Leonard


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Mike Hosea
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: leonard]
      #3437710 - 11/09/09 09:48 AM

Same size at prime focus but different image scale. So with a given eyepiece, the Airy disks will appear the same size to the eye, but a given double will appear farther apart in the larger scope.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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leonard
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3437774 - 11/09/09 10:25 AM

Hi Mike ,

I can only speak to visual as I know nothing about astro photography . I need to understand it in simple terms or I never will .
Two refractors both 4 inchs , one F10 one f5. Using the same magnification in both , the Airy disk should be the same size in the image . If thats true to me it means the 4 inch objectives form a Airy disk the same size in each.
This may be where I am having a problem understanding . If the above is NOT true then it points to my misunderstanding . It would mean the Airy disks formed by the two scopes are of different size and that would give me my answer .
I understand the larger scope will show a smaller Airy disk therefor the double will be a cleaner easer split as the Airy disks are smaller .

So am I correct or not ??

Thank you , Leonard


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EdZ
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: leonard]
      #3437803 - 11/09/09 10:47 AM

Quote:

Two refractors both 4 inchs , one F10 one f5. Using the same magnification in both , the Airy disk should be the same size in the image . If thats true to me it means the 4 inch objectives form a Airy disk the same size in each.





key point is using same magnification in both, YES they will appear exactly the same in both scopes.

But as Mike points out, "with a given eyepiece"...It is only when you use the "same eyepiece" in both scopes that it will appear larger (read wider) in the f/10 scope, and that is entirely due to magnification. The Airy disks will still appear identical (in angular) size.

Under no circumstances can you make an Airy disk appear larger (in anngular size) in one 4 inch scope versus another 4 inch scope.

edz

--------------------
Teach a kid something today. The feeling you'll get is one of life's greatest rewards.
member#21


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Mike Hosea
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: leonard]
      #3437894 - 11/09/09 11:36 AM

You have it right. Of course with the same aperture and different f-ratios you have to use different eyepieces to get the same magnification. I was speaking of using the same eyepiece. I can explain a little better how I'm thinking about it...

My reference to "prime focus" wasn't really about photography, just a different way of saying "at the focal plane" in this context. As Luigi pointed out earlier, you can model the eyepiece and telescope as a 2-part system. The first part, the telescope, forms an image in the air. You can easily see this image without an eyepiece if you point your telescope at the moon and put a thin sheet of white tissue paper over the focuser. Try it sometime. The second part of the 2-part system is the eyepiece, which you can think of as a magnifying glass for studying that image. Consequently, we can talk about the size of the Airy disks as projected on the tissue paper, as it were, or we can talk about the size of the Airy disks as projected on the retina of your eye when looking through an eyepiece. The former has been referred to here as the "linear" Airy disk size, the latter as the "angular" Airy disk size.

Luigi's point earlier was that if you had a slow scope, the detail on the image at the focal plane would be coarser, and so there would be less opportunity to see any difference in resolution between different eyepieces. I think Ed's counterpoint was that this really doesn't matter if you select your test target appropriately, since it's about detecting the separation of objects, and except insofar as the diffraction rings may obfuscate the issue, it doesn't matter whether we're detecting the separation of large disks (or lines) or smaller ones.

--------------------
Mike

Stuff that I use:
  • 7" f/6.7 home-built Newt, eq platform, Pentax 40XW and 5XO, Tele Vue 13E and 2x Barlow, ZAO-II 6mm
  • 120mm f/8.3 home-built grab-n-go Newt with 7-21mm Nikon Zoom
  • Canon 15x50 IS and Eagle Optics 12x50 Ranger binoculars



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leonard
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: Mike Hosea]
      #3438142 - 11/09/09 01:42 PM

Hello , Ed , Mike ,

OK , I understand it all in a clearer sense now .
I thank all of you for taking your time to do so.

Thanks , Leonard


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CollinofAlabama
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3441334 - 11/11/09 12:42 AM

Jim,

You've got lots of suggestions and possible scenarios. Perhaps you will in fact run two tests? One for 5mm ep's and one for 4mm ones? Besides the Zhumell 5mm, I have one more in their number to consider, the Meade 5000 4.7mm UWA. For wide fielders (and folks who want good eye relief), this is a STEAL now that Meade has lowered the price. It also is the only one of the series that weighs less than its corresponding T6. I realize it will have a magnification advantage, but it should fall within your ~13x delta.

Let me know if you can't find one locally.

I think your article last year is the absolute best review of eyepieces I've ever read -- light, whimsical, funny, serious and technically demanding all at the same time. In short, it was much better than Cats. I want to read it again and again.

CDS

--------------------
Coelum Serendum


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CollinofAlabama
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #3441345 - 11/11/09 12:50 AM

Oh yeah, regarding the 3.5mm & 4mm eyepieces, could you delay these in favor of the 5mm ones? Personally, my conditions rarely allow the use of 5mm eyepieces, and 3.5 to 4mm eyepieces come out of the case (or are barlowed to) once in a blue moon. To maintain relevance with that old P. T. Barnum popularity, might wanna consider this before you spec yourselves into optical oblivion.

Dos centavos, offered completamente libre

CDS

--------------------
Coelum Serendum


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jrbarnett
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Re: Second Annual World Cup: Eyepieces new [Re: CollinofAlabama]
      #3441756 - 11/11/09 10:51 AM

Thanks for the feedback Colin, mi hermano de luchador libre.

Given the higher magnifications we would like to operate at for this Cup, we'll likely proceed with the 3.5mm to 4mm format. That said, I am also keen to do something a little more rigorous (than a "World Cup" presentation) in the 5mm space. I was thinking of doing something like "Four Seasons with Five at Five" and chose seasonal targets and appropriate criteria for each target. That would be five 5mm eyepieces and four different targets with observations spread out through the year. Galaxies in Spring, open clusters in Fall, perhaps Mars this winter, etc.

It could be serialized or done as one compiled report at the end of the year. Different observers could participate in different segments. In fact, so long as there's a consistent set of criteria, a distributed effort might be fun. That is for a given season and target set, select two or three CNer observers around the country, provide them with the eyepieces and pre-paid return shipping boxes, and a score sheet with the criteria to be used for that target set. We'd need some kind of collar around focal length and aperture scopes to be used, but variation in design, aperture and focal length would be appropriate (and realistic).

Hmmm...

- Jim

--------------------
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

- Sir Issac Newton


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