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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Jack Day
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Reged: 03/04/05

Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: Nigel_Choy]
      #4355657 - 02/01/11 01:21 PM

I also own the older version ES 30, that I removed the twist cup from. All I can say is that I am completely happy with it, and I do use my glasses while viewing with no issue. I have used the T5 31, and it is also a great eyepiece. I chose the ES for two primary reasons:

Cost: Was 1/3 the cost of the TV

Exit Pupil: 30mm has a slightly smaller ep than the 31mm.


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Mike B
Starstruck
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Reged: 04/06/05

Loc: shake, rattle, & roll, CA
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: Jack Day]
      #4355997 - 02/01/11 03:53 PM

I have the 30mm Meade UWA, and enjoy using it very much. I find it has ample ER for my eyeglasses when the rubberized top is rotated nearly all-the-way down, and it seems okay ergonomically with my facial structure- an aspect i believe is not discussed a lot, and has a substantial bearing on *effective* ER & comfort of use.

On the contrary, i once owned a 28mm UWAN (W.O.'s UWA), and while it *technically* had "enough" ER, its soda-can shape was simply too wide at the top- i had to tilt my head at an angle in order to sneak my eye up to view if i wanted to see the entire FoV. Not at all ergonomic... for *me*. Others seemed fine with it.

I've found the Meade 30mm UWA less obtrusive in this regard.

For a brief period of a few nights i was able to compare the Meade, A-B fashion, to the Nagler T5 26mm... but not the 31mm. My 15" Dob was used for this, with a Paracorr. I found the view quality very similar- for colors, sharpness, background, faintness of stars seen. The BIG difference i saw was the T5 had substantial "pincushion" distortion, the Meade did not.

Not caring much for the PC, i sold the Nagler off & kept the Meade, and have not regretted the choice since.

Assuming the ES-30 was similar in nature to the Meade UWA, my default recommendation would be to strongly consider the ES, over the Nagler. I, for one, certainly saw no differences i'd consider worthy of doubling the price of the investment. Yet if is no object, and you must unquestioningly have "the best", the Nagler would seem to be better fitting that criteria.
mike b


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johnnyha
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm new [Re: Nigel_Choy]
      #4356162 - 02/01/11 04:58 PM

31T5, absolutely. It's in a class by itself. Pincushion is the price you pay for sharp stars to the edge.

Nigel about those glasses I think Lindberg makes these tiny glasses, but it's a matter of having the frames (or rather the earpieces since they have no frames), somehow altered for astro use. Actually, I think customizing the nosepiece would be they key to insetting the lenses for astro use. The lenses themselves can be custom cut to any shape, so they could be made very small. The earpieces are thin titanium, and simply plug into a hole in the side of the lens kinda like a truss rod on a mirror box.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm new [Re: Nigel_Choy]
      #4356174 - 02/01/11 05:04 PM

Quote:

So Should i go for the TV 31mm type 5?




It is a great eyepiece. You can't go wrong with it.


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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: orveko]
      #4356284 - 02/01/11 05:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Does anyone have a comment on how either of these eyepieces work with glasses? I am often skeptical of posted eye relief specifications ...



The Meade 5000 UWA i could see apprx. 70% of the FOV with my glasses, with the 40mm SWA 5000 you can easilly take in the whole FOV.



Thanks a bunch




Small note: may not apply to the newer version. The old version requires you to look through it with head tilted at an angle to see all of the field, and that's simply impossible to do well with eyeglasses. The newer one with 31T5 style tapered conical top might be a lot better.

All the JOC Kunming UWAs of the earlier generation and the UWAN have "what on earth were they thinking" eye facing eyecup designs (as had the 34mm Meade 5000 SWA I just sold).

Glad they ditched it in favour of the 31T5 style design, and it earned them at least one new customer.


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Darenwh
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/11/06

Loc: Covington, GA
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: sixela]
      #4356405 - 02/01/11 06:39 PM

The new design looks like it would be easy to look through. I ended up removing the mushroom from mine and I love the eyepiece. I really think it is as good as any other 30mm I have ever used.

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Rick Woods
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Reged: 01/27/05

Loc: Inner Solar System
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #4356461 - 02/01/11 06:58 PM

+1 on the excellence of the 31mm Nagler. I haven't tried the others, though.

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Nigel_Choy
super member


Reged: 12/30/10

Loc: Kuala Lumpur , Malaysia
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: Rick Woods]
      #4356660 - 02/01/11 08:07 PM

Wow looks like Many of you like the TV ep: But Manu of you still haven't tried the ES one. Should I flip a coin to see which to buy?

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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: Nigel_Choy]
      #4356672 - 02/01/11 08:11 PM

Well, some have tried the previous incarnation, and it is rumoured to be optically identical (at least as far as glass types, lens configurations, polishing and coating are concerned) even though the baffling, retaining ring and other mechanical aspects may be different.

I'd say: if you have the money to spare, you can't go wrong buying a 31T5 (especially if you can buy one used, which means it will probably not depreciate very much). If you don't, well, then the question answers itself.


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jack45
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Reged: 07/07/03

Loc: Lacey WA
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: sixela]
      #4356704 - 02/01/11 08:20 PM

We seem to leave out the 31mm Axiom LX. An excellent ep with or without a paracorr. I saw no different between it and the 31mm T/5. Wait there is one, ER 21mm for the Axiom and 19mm for the Nagler, just saying. Oh, and price!

Clear Skies!


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Nigel_Choy
super member


Reged: 12/30/10

Loc: Kuala Lumpur , Malaysia
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: jack45]
      #4356782 - 02/01/11 08:56 PM

I totally forgotten about the celestron Axiom LX. But I think televue is still better right?

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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: jack45]
      #4356786 - 02/01/11 08:58 PM

We're not exactly "leaving out" the 31mm Axion LX. Compared to the ES, it's basically the same design (or if you can believe ES a very slightly earlier version of the same design) made by the same people in the same factory but in different packaging.

Sure, the polishing quality might be different, the coatings might be different and the internal baffling might be different, but I'd be hard pressed to actually see a difference from what little I've seen to date.


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Nigel_Choy
super member


Reged: 12/30/10

Loc: Kuala Lumpur , Malaysia
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? [Re: sixela]
      #4356922 - 02/01/11 10:06 PM

So axiom and es is around the same design?

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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? [Re: Nigel_Choy]
      #4357301 - 02/02/11 02:31 AM

The Celestron Axiom LX (not the old "Axiom" without LX), ES 82° and Meade 5000 UWA share the same basic design and are all made in the Jinghua Optical Company factory in Kunming, yes.

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Nigel_Choy
super member


Reged: 12/30/10

Loc: Kuala Lumpur , Malaysia
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? [Re: sixela]
      #4357395 - 02/02/11 05:29 AM

So basically everything is the same except the brands and coatings?

My final decision is I'm going for Televue Nagler 31mm type 5


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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: Nigel_Choy]
      #4357442 - 02/02/11 06:42 AM

I've just received my 30mm Explore Scientific 82° N2.

No first light yet (well, only daytime first light, but trees don't tell you everything), but some observations:

Subjectively, as close to a 31T5 in look and feel as it gets (probably not a coincidence). With small eye pupil, just the same lateral colour with the eye improperly placed when looking at the edge, suggesting there will be exactly the same ring of fire effect (not that it matters). Eye relief is pretty tight for a 30mm eyepiece, just like on the T5 (the stated eye relief is larger than the usable one because the eye lens is concave), but for me it's perfect. In daylight it's fairly easy for me to see exactly where the exit pupil is (in my f/4 StarBlast the exit pupil is a lot larger than my daytime eye pupil!) and I can say that I just have to press my face into the eye cup and it's perfect. 10/10 for comfort.

Coatings (using the "cap the eyepiece on one end and see what diffuse light comes back your way" on both sides) is evidently not up to T5 Nagler standards, let alone Ethos standards (the difference with the 21mm Ethos, despite its many groups, is quite striking). My guess is that the coatings aren't as well matched to the different indices, i.e. some corners were cut there compared to the absolute best. Coatings remind me a bit more eyepieces like the T2 Naglers or the Meade 4000 UWAs. Actually, probably not as effective as far as transmission is concerned as the the 34mm Meade 5000 SWA that it replaces.

But I digress. It's got four groups and eight air-glass transitions, so a difference between 0.5% reflectivity and 0.25% reflectivity will only amount to a total difference in transmission of 2%, so I'm not overly worried (though it's probably inevitable that bright object in view would produce a tad more veiing glare). In fact, comparing to the Meade SWA and looking at multiple reflections of dust particles on the outer lenses, low angle scatter is probably very well controlled, and that's probably more important.

Focuser in-travel required is (thanks to the absence of that conical section on the 31T5 which prevents the 31T5 from being seated deeply in the focuser but allows a very large field stop without any vignetting) surprisingly middle of the road, nothing like the 31T5. Good thing for Paracorr owners. I think that's the convenience that is costing us 1mm of focal length and a tiny bit of field stop size if you compare with the 31T5.

As the eyecup design is now flawlessly executed, the only "what on earth were they thinking" feature now seems to be the shiny 2" barrel with 2" filter threads and very narrow and shiny retaining ring for the field lens. From looking down into the capped eyepiece and looking through the uncapped eyepiece with light sources around, it's a fairly safe bet that it can still cause the (rare) bright off-axis object glare issue than plagued the direct predecessor (in particular, there's the hard to fix edge of the retaining lip that's just as shiny and directly abuts the field lens).

They'd be much better off anodising the barrel black (and possibly flat-black-painting the lower section that will never contact filter threads) and adding a fairly narrow blackened retaining ring like TeleVue does on the 21mm Ethos just above the field lens. I'd gladly pay for it (in fact, I have a half destroyed M48x0.75mm retaining ring from TeleVue but the threads are different enough for me to fail to install that on the ES. So much for standards and US companies knowing how to convert 0.75mm per thread into tpi correctly).

From daytime observation and comparing with a 26T5, I'd say that its design will probably perform almost exactly like a 31T5, but with slightly less pincushion distortion (although that never bothered me in the 31T5 at night). But design isn't everything; execution also matters, and it's clear the price difference between it and the 31T5 isn't just lining Al Nagler's pockets.

For me, though, it's pretty good, and just at the price point I wanted it.

At substantially less than even second hand 31T5s, that's quite a feat, but more about that later.

Summary: as close to a 31T5 as you'll get for the price as far as I can see (WARNING: has not seen stars YET). Not actually identical, and no match (as far as attention to detail is concerned) for Ethos or Pentax XW eyepieces (given the price, though, and the almost legendary performance of 31T5 and Pentax XW eyepieces that's a big "Duh!").


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mgb
sage
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Reged: 09/02/09

Loc: Montreal, Qc... Canada
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: sixela]
      #4357570 - 02/02/11 08:54 AM

Sixela,

Thanks for the info and I am anxiously waiting for your full report.

It's not that I need more glass but at that price and if they perform much like what I read... Well why not go for a few.


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rdl800
professor emeritus
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Reged: 01/18/11

Loc: CT
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: sixela]
      #4357593 - 02/02/11 09:06 AM

sixela,

great explanation; your experience shows.

btw, I was in your neck of the woods a couple of years ago. It's a wonderful place , but, many lights and people everywhere. How are your skies there?


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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: rdl800]
      #4357648 - 02/02/11 09:41 AM

VERY light polluted. Less so if I drive an hour to stand between the cows, but even there light domes are a dime a dozen. It takes me two hours and a half to drive to decent skies and five hours to drive to really good ones.

Ah well.


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sixela
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Reged: 12/23/04

Loc: Boechout, Belgium
Re: TeleVue Nagler 31mm vs Explore Scientific 30mm ? new [Re: sixela]
      #4357720 - 02/02/11 10:21 AM

I should add (for completeness' sake) that there's a second retaining ring closer to the eye lens that is also shiny, but I doubt it's relevant (the specular reflection from light that can reach the ring in my opinion probably can't reach the exit pupil anyway.

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