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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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hfjacinto
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048802 - 01/31/12 09:05 PM

Wayne,

Considering you haven't looked through the 25MM ES, isn't your "objective" opinion a little premature? Actually have you looked through the ES 100* eyepieces at all, to so strongly condemn them?

I have and while Televue is slightly better the differences are negligible. Kind of like your opinion below:

Quote:

"The Nikon is, last I checked, about TWICE or THREE TIMES the cost of an Ethos! I love my optics but no eyepiece is worth that much to me for such a small improvement! Truly, the emperor’s robes!




To some the 2-3 price difference of an Ethos to an ES is not worth the small improvement. Now before you state that I am an ES fan boy, I can state that I own no ES eyepiece (most of my eyepieces are Naglers) but I have viewed through enough eyepieces, that if was purely visual, my set-up would have 100* ES eyepieces.


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tmbuser6
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Reged: 07/01/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5048812 - 01/31/12 09:12 PM

Quote:

So with 46mm clear aperture field lens you can have a 2” 26mm Ethos, it is a fact no one can dispute.




Right. Hey, you can think or claim whatever you want, dude. I just came here to try to inform people as to why the longest Ethos was made 21mm and what the likely issues and changes that would have to occur to successfully get 25mm f.l. 100-degree in a 2-inch format without giving up quality. Not to bicker with someone ad nauseum to pointless ends. I suggest you take your ideas and design to Mr. Nagler. I know the source and veracity of my info and really don't care to argue with you, you are either confused in what you say or entirely misunderstand what I have said. Fine. Silly me, quoting the opinion of someone with a Ph.D. in optics! There are designs which can put a 25-26mm eyepiece with 110 degree view into a package only 50mm long! Only problem with them is that they suffer aberrations.

I really don't care about the AFOV. I enjoy many eyepieces from the Ethos down to monocentrics with only 30 degrees. I am neither bothered by narrow field claustrophobia nor suffer from wide-field fever where I want a 150 degree fov box I can put my head in and look around. I am DELIGHTED that someone produced an eyepiece SO WIDE and as SO CLOSE to perfect as the Ethos, and at a cost that isn't too insane.

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

But I do realize that TeleVue is the reason for the entire eyepiece industry as we know it today, and have been the source of innovation in eyepieces since the late '70's. All the other great lines by Pentax, Nikon, etc., well they probably wouldn't be there if TeleVue hadn't laid down the groundwork for creating a market for such eyepieces.

I also know that the best quality has always come from TeleVue with rare exceptions. Clave made a better plossl, and where are they? Nikon makes a slightly nicer 100 degreer, but look at what they cost!

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.

But that is just my own opinion and position, ymmv. Me, I have already spent way more time on this thread than I ever set out or intended to do.

Regards,

Wayne


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dyslexic nam
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048885 - 01/31/12 10:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I find it interesting that you can label an Ethos as optically 'essentially perfect' (and admit to using one), while you feel justified in labeling the forthcoming ES ep's as a 'garish design'.




Hey, I didn't label the Ethos as essentially perfect optics, that is a direct quote from some of the leading optical experts in the industry! I just happen to agree with them. And as far as "objectivity" and "annoyance" and garish, I was referring to my own opinion of someone needing or wanting to put twelve lenses into an eyepiece to look at something. I never said I was being "objective," your annoyance is at your own hands and not my doing because folks read more into words than what was actually said.

Regards,

Wayne




So it is garish to put 12 elements in an ep, but you previously praised the qualities of an ethos (9 elements) in a powermate (4 elements). Um, okay.

Anywho, I don't feel the need to carry this any further. I just felt like calling out some of the inconsistencies in your post. It is your prerogative to state your opinion (and I, mine), but when you dress it up in references to ray tracing and optical experts and allege evidence that a forthcoming product will be demonstrably inferior, I think you have an intellectual responsibility to separate factual analysis from opinion and bias.


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Paul G
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5049302 - 02/01/12 06:52 AM

Quote:

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.




Bravo, well said! I, too, only support the innovators. I have zero interest in what Jinghua/ES brings to market.


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Phillip Creed
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5049340 - 02/01/12 07:22 AM

Explore Scientific and Televue are companies, not churches. There's no need for a holy war. The bottom line in business is just that--the bottom line. Sales. Profit. The Consumer Is King. Offer the customer something they want more than their desire to hold onto their money, and your company makes a sale.

If you want optical perfection, and you can afford it, get the Televue. If you want 90% of the eyepiece for 40%-50% of the cost, go ES. There's a perfectly justifiable rationale for going either way. I've owned several Televue products, and my current line-up has both Televue and ES, peacefully co-existing in my eyepiece case.

As for the 25ES-100, I propose a bold course of action. We could--get this--actually wait until the (bleep)ing eyepiece gets in a qualified observer's focuser prior to passing judgment. Juuuuuuuust a thought.

Clear Skies,
Phil


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sniperpride
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Reged: 01/04/12

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #5049391 - 02/01/12 08:29 AM

We are lucky as consumers to have competition in sales. Otherwise with no competition, prices could be whatever they would like, as consumers would have no alternative.

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sixela
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5049443 - 02/01/12 09:21 AM

Quote:

I will let them know they were wrong.




You're forgetting one option: they are right and you misinterpreted what they are saying (or inferred things that should not be inferred, such as the location of the field stop within or without the barrel, the relative size of the physical field stop and effective field stop diameters in a negative-positive design, and how close the long focal length ES eyepieces would follow the Ethos design which, as far as I can see, is also actually not a scaled design).

By the way, even PhD owners can sometimes be wrong.

When PhD owners are quoted by others, the chances of the end result being correct is also lowered.


Edited by csa/montana (02/01/12 09:45 AM)


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5049462 - 02/01/12 09:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.




Bravo, well said! I, too, only support the innovators. I have zero interest in what Jinghua/ES brings to market.




Sadly, the both of you are mistaken in your assessment of innovators. Scott and Russ from ES have been doing innovations on equipment. They relay that info to JOC to make changes constantly. I have beta tested products for them that are their own new ideas or ideas of customers who they have listened to. I strongly suspect I have the prototype "porcupine" focuser in my achro. This was something they modded on the fly and had me test while trying to determine optical problems in my shipping damaged scope. I ended up with a new scope where they put the modded focuser on the new one after determining the old one had lens seating issues. During my wait I also tested a custom twilight II mount that had been modded and possibly might get into a future production run. I don't know how you can pass armchair judgement on a company without first understanding or having firsthand experience of their products or what happens behind the scenes. Bravo to ES for what they do and their approach to making customers happy.

As has been mentioned - no need for holy wars on products. Both Televue and ES offer fine products.


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sixela
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: sixela]
      #5049468 - 02/01/12 09:35 AM

Quote:

I also know that the best quality has always come from TeleVue with rare exceptions.



The exceptions aren't so rare (not to mention that TeleVue doesn't make any Plössls shorter than 8mm, which means that TV doesn't even have eyepieces in some niches).

Unless you're artificially going to limit yourself to eyepieces that are not more expensive than TVs (which usually have a very good price/performance ratio), of course, but that is perilously close to begging the question.

If you don't, Leica, Zeiss, Nikon and Pentax and the Japanese that make the best Japanese orthos all still make eyepieces and you can dig to find TMBs and AP SPLs. Not to mention a certain US brand starting with a "B" which has a design with its share of warts but excellent finish.

In fact, what is "the best quality"? Even if you have oodles of eyepieces, it's not uncommon for eyepiece A to beat eyepiece B on certain metrics, targets and conditions and eyepiece B to beat eyepiece A on others.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Reged: 05/14/05

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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #5049487 - 02/01/12 09:44 AM

Quote:

Explore Scientific and Televue are companies, not churches. There's no need for a holy war. The bottom line in business is just that--the bottom line. Sales. Profit. The Consumer Is King. Offer the customer something they want more than their desire to hold onto their money, and your company makes a sale.

If you want optical perfection, and you can afford it, get the Televue. If you want 90% of the eyepiece for 40%-50% of the cost, go ES. There's a perfectly justifiable rationale for going either way. I've owned several Televue products, and my current line-up has both Televue and ES, peacefully co-existing in my eyepiece case.

As for the 25ES-100, I propose a bold course of action. We could--get this--actually wait until the (bleep)ing eyepiece gets in a qualified observer's focuser prior to passing judgment. Juuuuuuuust a thought.

Clear Skies,
Phil




I think this sums it up very nicely!

We are all free to purchase what we want, & should not throw mud on others because their purchases do not agree with ours. I also have TV & ES co-existing in my eyepiece case quite peacefully; so let's do the same here, and while it's nice to have allegiance to a particular brand, that does not give an open door to disrespect other companies, or other member's options here. So let's continue the discussion on this new eyepiece in a respectful manner to all. As Phil says, let's wait till the eyepiece actually is in the hands of someone that can advise us of it's qualities or flaws, before passing judgement.


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: sixela]
      #5049488 - 02/01/12 09:45 AM

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.



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Fred1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: sixela]
      #5049515 - 02/01/12 10:00 AM

The pre-order ad states the target release is end of April. That coincides with NEAF. Now why would a manufacturer premier a product at NEAF? Who buys anything new and untested at NEAF?
Anyone want to start a pool on how many people will be in line to take the first look-throughs of these new eyepieces? Or of how many orders will be placed?


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skyward_eyes
Vendor - Sky-Watcher USA
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049519 - 02/01/12 10:01 AM

Well no matter what anyone thinks, I plan on adding the ES 25 and ES 5.5 to my line up and complete the 100* collection. I am sure both will perform as well as the others, I seriously doubt a company such as Explore Scientific would release a sub-par piece to the public.

ES has has the innovation to design their own stuff as well. The ES 9mm 120 is a fine example.


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bsim
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049524 - 02/01/12 10:06 AM

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design, ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.

the bottom line is that everyone is free to purchase whatever they want,

Edited by bsim (02/01/12 10:17 AM)


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bsim]
      #5049535 - 02/01/12 10:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.




My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.

Please submit all future posts using one of these

Edited by Vondragonnoggin (02/01/12 10:21 AM)


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bsim
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049552 - 02/01/12 10:25 AM

Quote:


My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.




That's a broad statement that wasn't evident in your original post. You are now linking this discussion with commodities and the broader market. The discussions have centered around the astronomy market--not frying pans. This market is small and shrinking. Some people are drawing a line in the sand as they wish to reward the true innovator: TeleVue. And that is in their right. Others are saying who cares. And they are right too.

As far as "hypocrisy" or cognitive dissonance is concerned, we're all guilty. Humans aren't perfect or rational. If you demand perfect consistency, that's a Utopia that doesn't exist.

Again I reiterate everyone is free to choose what to buy. They can reward the innovator or reward the cloner. It's their choice.

I'll end my discussion here.


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bsim]
      #5049570 - 02/01/12 10:41 AM

I don't demand perfect consistency because I realize that is difficult, but then I also don't agree with posting quirky rationale on where someone draws a hypocritical line in the sand for all to scrutinize. It falls on deaf ears if someone is explaining the one area of goods they hold principal on where they compromise on ten others.

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stevenp_86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049571 - 02/01/12 10:43 AM

Quote:

Please submit all future posts using one of these




made me laugh so much


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? [Re: bsim]
      #5049582 - 02/01/12 10:50 AM

Quote:

They can reward the innovator or reward the cloner. It's their choice.




Buying eyepieces is not about rewarding anyone; rather buying what an individual can afford to buy. As far as the constant reference to the "cloner"; I have a new ES30 eyepiece. I do not apologize to anyone for my choice; because I cannot afford to buy the equilavent TeleVue. Does this make me a terrible person? I certainly hope not! The ES line has opened up new choices for astronomy, that just about everyone can afford. Do I have the utmost respect for Mr. Nagler & his company? Absolutely, but again, the choice individuals make, is not about "rewarding" the company; rather the choice is what fits best in our equipment, our budget. We all look at the same night sky, what we use to look at it, is our choice, & should not be subjected to being "disloyal" to a particular company.

An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.


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BillP
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049617 - 02/01/12 11:11 AM

In a Free Enterprise system the enterprise which can bring the goods or services to market with the highest quality and at the lowest cost which meets the demands of the consumer gains their rewards by the market share their approach garners. So innovation is about much much more than simply technology advancements.

I "reward" those vendors which bring out what I consider the best for a reasonable cost, which is why I have eyepieces across an array of vendors: Zeiss/Baader, Pentax, Astro-Physics, Explore Scientific, Edmunds Scientific, Vernonscope, Long-Perng, Meade, and TeleVue. Each of these companies, in my estimation, have innovated in some way that none of the others in the list have related to the specific eyepieces I have chosen from them.

So is TeleVue an innovator in astronomical eyepieces? Yes! Is Explore Scientific an innovator? Yes! Each and every one of them is an innovator and not a one of them is to be sold short! In the end, the fabric of our hobby would be much poorer without any one of them. All are important and ALL deserve a share of the pot and they are all doing something that is both valuable and innovative for the consumer.

And btw, ES deserves some special rewards as the first to come out with a 120 degree consumer eyepiece design, and also the first to come out with a 100 degree 2" that maximizes the field stop capability of a 2" barrel more than anyone else!! Congrats are in order! Competition! Nothing like it!!

Edited by BillP (02/01/12 11:14 AM)


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