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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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stevenp_86
professor emeritus
*****

Reged: 11/30/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049660 - 02/01/12 11:28 AM

Quote:


An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.




its ok, i think all forms of discussion are important, i actually enjoy debates, even if it goes off topic of the original post


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Darenwh
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/11/06

Loc: Covington, GA
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049661 - 02/01/12 11:28 AM

I wonder if either of these manufacturers insures that the glass used in their eyepieces are manufactured by the original inventor of that type of glass? I wonder if any of the elements used in either of these companies eyepieces or telescopes are copies of basic designs that others designed before them? Was the Televue plossl a completely original design or is it just a copy of the original plossl design with some slight tweaking done by Televue?

Innovation is a process of taking what others have done before and finding ways to improve the product or to make a new product using that design. That may be by a complete redesign to improve the design or by making changes to make the design more affordable to a wider audience.

If a company chooses not to patent a design then they leave it open for others to emulate the design. That's a business decision for the company and one every company has to make for itself.

What ES has done is to create a 'Value line' set of eyepieces that performs very close to the top of the line TV eyepieces but for a better price. Perhaps TV should do the same so that people can choose to purchase TV's value line thereby limiting the ability of others to come in and undercut them in this manner.

TV seems to enjoy having their eyepieces be considered 'The' eyepieces to own and they price them as such. This allows them to sell those eyepieces for a good profit but also leaves the market wide open for a 2nd best competitor at a lower cost. As long as they do this they should expect such competition to emerge and as long as they do not patent their design they should expect that competitor to produce a copy that is close to the performance level of their design.

What TV has to watch out for with this business model is that the second tier value provider could innovate a line that could be superior to the TV line and market it at a cost that would be equal to or undercut the TV line. If this occurs then TV could be in trouble. Currently they are a small company that depends on their name, current product offerings, and history to insure that they stay the leader in the industry. If their product line is one upped then they could find themselves trying to stay viable when the market starts to turn from them. If the ES100 25 proves an excellent eyepiece after TV stated they would not produce such an eyepiece because of the compromises it would require and if the new ES120 9mm proves to be an excellent design then TV could find themselves on the defensive.

Either way, we live in very good times for the consumer of astronomical equipment.


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Pollux556
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 12/14/08

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049773 - 02/01/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

They can reward the innovator or reward the cloner. It's their choice.

An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.





I follow this tread with great interest but a thing: Nothing is worse than fanaticism.


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Paul G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049808 - 02/01/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.




My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.




Personally, I don't care one bit what anyone else buys, I was only stating my own preferences and choices. The obvious difference between an automobile or any other high volume product and the very small astronomy market supplied by small companies is that my personal purchase choices literally will make zero difference to the automobile or frying pan manufacturer, but they may make a difference to the small businesses that supply new products for our hobby. And as a small business owner myself I can appreciate the difference each customer makes. It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of being effective. I want to see more new and different products that can enhance my enjoyment of the hobby, and I plan my purchases with this in mind. Others don't, or don't care, and that's fine, too.

In such a small market no company is immune. As predatory as Meade has been throughout their history where are they now? Despite moving all manufacturing out of the country to save costs they just had a horrific financial year. Unless they can climb out of the hole they won't be around much longer in their current form.


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Jim Romanski
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Guilford, Connecticut
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5049810 - 02/01/12 12:58 PM

I've looked all over the Explore Scientific website to see if there's an announcement about this eyepiece but I can't find any.

I don't see anything about the 9mm 120 degree eyepiece either.

Have they published anything about either of these except what's on Astronomics website?


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Paul G
Post Laureate
*****

Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049823 - 02/01/12 01:06 PM

Quote:

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I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.




Bravo, well said! I, too, only support the innovators. I have zero interest in what Jinghua/ES brings to market.




Sadly, the both of you are mistaken in your assessment of innovators. Scott and Russ from ES have been doing innovations on equipment. They relay that info to JOC to make changes constantly. I have beta tested products for them that are their own new ideas or ideas of customers who they have listened to. I strongly suspect I have the prototype "porcupine" focuser in my achro. This was something they modded on the fly and had me test while trying to determine optical problems in my shipping damaged scope. I ended up with a new scope where they put the modded focuser on the new one after determining the old one had lens seating issues. During my wait I also tested a custom twilight II mount that had been modded and possibly might get into a future production run. I don't know how you can pass armchair judgement on a company without first understanding or having firsthand experience of their products or what happens behind the scenes.




If those products actually hit the market and are new designs I will happily change my opinion of their focusers and mounts. But there's no way to explain away those eyepiece x-rays.


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Darenwh
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/11/06

Loc: Covington, GA
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5049860 - 02/01/12 01:33 PM

I haven't seen anything on their website either but I know that the 120 9mm was at a few larger public starparty's and many people were extremely impressed with the quality of the images in the prototype. It will be interesting to see the production eyepiece.


Here is a thread that discussed views through this eyepiece.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
*****

Reged: 05/14/05

Loc: montana
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5049862 - 02/01/12 01:35 PM

Quote:

If those products actually hit the market and are new designs I will happily change my opinion of their focusers and mounts. But there's no way to explain away those eyepiece x-rays.





I don't know that anyone's try to change your mind, or explain any x-rays; rather that we are free to make choices that fit us, same as you are. Would some of us love to have all TV's in their eyepiece case? Perhaps. I for one, probably wouldn't live long enough to afford all that I need! In the meantime, I will be enjoying the night skies with the ES, Pentax, Meade UWA 4000, Masuyama's, and surprise; a couple of TV's! To sum it up; we are free to post our opinions, but that doesn't mean that we all have to agree with other opinions. What we choose & pay for, is what we, ourselves, use; no one else.


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star drop
contra contrail
*****

Reged: 02/02/08

Loc: Snow Plop, WNY
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5050104 - 02/01/12 03:57 PM

Quote:

im gona pick up one of these bad boys on the day of release, when will that be? how much?



I'd like a 25mm and a .....


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5050609 - 02/01/12 09:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.




My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.




Personally, I don't care one bit what anyone else buys, I was only stating my own preferences and choices. The obvious difference between an automobile or any other high volume product and the very small astronomy market supplied by small companies is that my personal purchase choices literally will make zero difference to the automobile or frying pan manufacturer, but they may make a difference to the small businesses that supply new products for our hobby. And as a small business owner myself I can appreciate the difference each customer makes. It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of being effective. I want to see more new and different products that can enhance my enjoyment of the hobby, and I plan my purchases with this in mind. Others don't, or don't care, and that's fine, too.

In such a small market no company is immune. As predatory as Meade has been throughout their history where are they now? Despite moving all manufacturing out of the country to save costs they just had a horrific financial year. Unless they can climb out of the hole they won't be around much longer in their current form.




Not true. The US has lost almost all its' manufacturing to lower cost asia. China is probably the worst example of reverse engineering, not honoring copyrights/trademarks.
China even had an "Apple"-like store selling counterfit Ipods where the employees even thought they were working for Apple, and they obviously were not. Every sale does make a difference.

But we live in a free economy where we can choose to buy any legal (non-counterfit) product, and patents only protect innovators for so long.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5050634 - 02/01/12 09:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Please submit all future posts using one of these




made me laugh so much




Thanks it was getting too serious here.

P.S. We could go back to the teletype, the true innovator of long distance communication.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5050639 - 02/01/12 09:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:


An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.




its ok, i think all forms of discussion are important, i actually enjoy debates, even if it goes off topic of the original post




I agree it should split off to a seperate post. Definitely not the original subject anymore.


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j3ffr0
Pooh-Bah
*****

Reged: 07/06/08

Loc: Virginia
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5052736 - 02/03/12 01:02 AM

I'm curious to hear how these eyepieces perform. They could be a good option for a number of folks

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gatorengineer
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 02/28/05

Loc: Hellertown, PA
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5053672 - 02/03/12 03:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Completely false!
What do you mean look hard into the bottom? You just need to measure it with a ruler:
Ethos 17 – filed stop =29.6, filed lens =29.6
Nagler 5 and 7 both have field lens **smaller than field stop.
As expected, if the Smyth groups acts as a barlow, naturally the rays diverge and therefore the barlow aperture does not need to be larger than field stop.
And then based on this false statement, you repeat again and again the ES eyepiece is compromised and will vignette.




I am sorry if you misunderstood me. You cannot reach the field stop with a ruler to measure it. The Ethos is not a Nagler, my statements are based upon the actual disassembly of an Ethos and a comprehensive ray tracing of the design by Roger Cergioli under the supervision of Dr. Richard A. Buchroeder, Ph.D.; I will let them know they were wrong. But is not the result still the same, as I just measured the field lens in the 21mm Ethos (since we are really talking about going wider) and it looks to be about 38.5mm, as large a lens as will fit within the barrel! So the inevitable result of increasing the focal length in any regard would still seem to be a vignetting of the peripheral field by a 25mm using a similar design. And other designs out there like the Koeler have inferior off axis performance.

Regards,

Wayne




Wayne, who says the field lens has to be in the barrel? It can be at the end of the barrel and the EP could have an interesting in focus requirement, and be a real grenade..... But since as you say they can only copy what Televue does, we should just wait and see Televues 25E.... as well as Televues 9mm 120 degree as well for good measure. Obvisouly the E is an original design and thats why its.... oops forgot its not patented....

I am sure this 25 has been to some star parties, so there are probably folks who will chime in.......

The only issue is that if Explore is announcing pre-orders now it probably wont ship till Christmas or later (I am still waiting on my 9 120)....


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John Rhodes
Vendor (Televue Rep)
*****

Reged: 02/21/06

Loc: Torrance, CA.
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5053919 - 02/03/12 06:14 PM

Quote:

we should just wait and see Televues 25E.... as well as Televues 9mm 120 degree as well for good measure. Obvisouly the E is an original design and thats why its.... oops forgot its not patented....




A few things,

We cannot go higher that 21 mm and keep it's Ethos... we would have to allow too may aberrations etc.

The Ethos line is complete and we don't anticipate any more in this design.

It is absolutely an original design ! We didn't patent the design because it forces us to explain everything in the patent,
making it easier to copy with practically no legal ramifications internationally.


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John K
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/26/05

Loc: Vernon BC Canada
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5054126 - 02/03/12 08:46 PM

Hear Hear..

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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5054363 - 02/03/12 11:33 PM

Quote:

I wonder if either of these manufacturers insures that the glass used in their eyepieces are manufactured by the original inventor of that type of glass? I wonder if any of the elements used in either of these companies eyepieces or telescopes are copies of basic designs that others designed before them? Was the Televue plossl a completely original design or is it just a copy of the original plossl design with some slight tweaking done by Televue?

Innovation is a process of taking what others have done before and finding ways to improve the product or to make a new product using that design. That may be by a complete redesign to improve the design or by making changes to make the design more affordable to a wider audience.

If a company chooses not to patent a design then they leave it open for others to emulate the design. That's a business decision for the company and one every company has to make for itself.

What ES has done is to create a 'Value line' set of eyepieces that performs very close to the top of the line TV eyepieces but for a better price. Perhaps TV should do the same so that people can choose to purchase TV's value line thereby limiting the ability of others to come in and undercut them in this manner.

TV seems to enjoy having their eyepieces be considered 'The' eyepieces to own and they price them as such. This allows them to sell those eyepieces for a good profit but also leaves the market wide open for a 2nd best competitor at a lower cost. As long as they do this they should expect such competition to emerge and as long as they do not patent their design they should expect that competitor to produce a copy that is close to the performance level of their design.

What TV has to watch out for with this business model is that the second tier value provider could innovate a line that could be superior to the TV line and market it at a cost that would be equal to or undercut the TV line. If this occurs then TV could be in trouble. Currently they are a small company that depends on their name, current product offerings, and history to insure that they stay the leader in the industry. If their product line is one upped then they could find themselves trying to stay viable when the market starts to turn from them. If the ES100 25 proves an excellent eyepiece after TV stated they would not produce such an eyepiece because of the compromises it would require and if the new ES120 9mm proves to be an excellent design then TV could find themselves on the defensive.

Either way, we live in very good times for the consumer of astronomical equipment.




Agree 100%!


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5054380 - 02/03/12 11:41 PM

Quote:

The Ethos line is complete and we don't anticipate any more in this design.




Heard that one before. Where there is a void (or customer want) it will eventually be filled. But I can understand why any company would not want to discuss future plans till it is soon to be released.


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Jim Romanski
Carpal Tunnel
*****

Reged: 01/02/05

Loc: Guilford, Connecticut
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? [Re: faackanders2]
      #5055988 - 02/04/12 10:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The Ethos line is complete and we don't anticipate any more in this design.




Heard that one before. Where there is a void (or customer want) it will eventually be filled. But I can understand why any company would not want to discuss future plans till it is soon to be released.




Well I take John at his word.

But I notice he didn't say anything about the Ethos SX or perhaps an Ethos II line or perhaps......


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5056568 - 02/05/12 10:18 AM

John, Would you knpow is a Paracorr II would handle a ES 25mm 100 AFOV? Is the Paracorr II limit just based on f ratio (as advertised), or is it also limited on TFOV/AFOV, etc? Or is this not a limit at all, but just a gradual degredation as you get further away from the optimal design point?

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