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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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stevenp_86
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Reged: 11/30/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder?
      #5046181 - 01/30/12 03:42 PM

im gona pick up one of these bad boys on the day of release, when will that be? how much?

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Dr Morbius
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5046202 - 01/30/12 03:53 PM

Your guess is as good as mine, although it can't be much more than the 20mm.

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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5046225 - 01/30/12 04:01 PM

Astronomics pre-order

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Jeff Black
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Reged: 01/29/12

Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5046264 - 01/30/12 04:23 PM

This morning, I cancelled the ES 24mm 82* I had ordered Saturday.... now I'm chompin at the bit for the 100* 25mm to get here!!

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Smithfr2000
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Reged: 09/12/09

Loc: Nantes - France
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jeff Black]
      #5046287 - 01/30/12 04:32 PM

I thought 21mm focal length was the maximum physically possible in a 2" barrel ?

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Jeff Black
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Reged: 01/29/12

Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Smithfr2000]
      #5046305 - 01/30/12 04:44 PM

There are quite a few 2" EPs over 21mm. I have a TeleVue 35mm Panoptic. I have 42mm and 50mm 2" EPs ordered and on the way now.

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Robert70
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Reged: 02/11/11

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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jeff Black]
      #5046463 - 01/30/12 06:08 PM

how much? Very expensive if you ask me.

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Lane
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Reged: 11/19/07

Loc: Frisco, Texas
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Robert70]
      #5046521 - 01/30/12 06:37 PM

Now if it had 25mm of eye relief I could get excited too. But I suspect this will be yet another wonderful eyepiece that I cannot use being an eyeglass wearer

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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Smithfr2000]
      #5046561 - 01/30/12 06:56 PM

Quote:

I thought 21mm focal length was the maximum physically possible in a 2" barrel ?




It's not that you can't have an eyepiece with a focal length longer than 21mm. Televue stated that for their 100 degree Ethos eyepiece that 21mm was the practical limit. They said they didn't want to make one longer or they would have to compromise in key areas such as eye relief, weight and most importantly vignetting.

No picture, no specs except for the obvious ones and no anticipated release date???

I'll wait on this one and see how ES decided to make their compromises.


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Scott in NCAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5046582 - 01/30/12 07:03 PM

From the Astronomics link that Carol kindly provided, I see that ES is also coming out with a 100 degree 5.5mm EP. That's exciting to me as well!

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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scott in NC]
      #5046599 - 01/30/12 07:11 PM

An ES 100 degree 5.5mm might be worth reserving for the big "It's Christmas!" or "It's my birthday!" excuse.


Mike


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5046729 - 01/30/12 08:19 PM

Quote:

An ES 100 degree 5.5mm might be worth reserving for the big "It's Christmas!" or "It's my birthday!" excuse.


Mike




You could always celebrate your "Un-Birthday" , but you may have to do the celebrating in the dog house.


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Joe Ogiba
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jeff Black]
      #5046764 - 01/30/12 08:39 PM

Quote:

There are quite a few 2" EPs over 21mm. I have a TeleVue 35mm Panoptic. I have 42mm and 50mm 2" EPs ordered and on the way now.



I have an 80mm 2" eyepiece but I am sure he was talking about 21mm 100 AFOV 2" eyepieces. I guess the 25mm 100 will be using close to the maximum fieldstop in 2" barrel. BTW the 21mm Ethos has a 36.2mm fieldstop with a weight of 2.25 lb compared to my 40mm Pentax XW with a 46.5mm fieldstop.


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Joe Ogiba]
      #5046770 - 01/30/12 08:41 PM

Actually the 5.5mm will be out close enough to my wife's birthday that I could buy it for her!!

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Scott in NCAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5046802 - 01/30/12 09:06 PM

Quote:

Actually the 5.5mm will be out close enough to my wife's birthday that I could buy it for her!!




Hope she's an astronomer, too. Otherwise you'll really be in the doghouse!


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stevenp_86
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Reged: 11/30/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scott in NC]
      #5046806 - 01/30/12 09:09 PM

just like the time when homer gave marge that bowling ball

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Sean Puett
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5046900 - 01/30/12 10:20 PM

That's a great idea. I'll get my wife the 5.5mm for mother's day. Do any of you have a room i can rent?

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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5046954 - 01/30/12 10:47 PM

The only thing worse than buying your wife something for her hobby, is buying her something for your hobby.

Mike


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tmbuser6
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Reged: 07/01/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jeff Black]
      #5047012 - 01/30/12 11:15 PM

Quote:

There are quite a few 2" EPs over 21mm. I have a TeleVue 35mm Panoptic. I have 42mm and 50mm 2" EPs ordered and on the way now.




Mr. Black, et al., I think the matter is a bit more complicated than you may realize. You see, it is already well established that the ES-100 design is at least /very/ similar to that of the Ethos, at least according to x-ray analysis. Basically, these eyepieces work with a negative-power Smyth lens group /ahead/ of the field stop, which is internal, about half way to the next lens, which is a positive meniscus. These 4 lenses operate together as a powermate-like group with the field stop placed within the group after the third lens.

Look at the bottom of any of these eyepieces and you will see that there is no external field stop present like in a normal eyepiece, and if you bring your finger up to the field lens while looking through, you will not find any point where you can bring your finger into focus looking thorough the eyepiece! That is because the focal plane is well inside.

It is this group which is both essential to and really the basis for the performance of the eyepiece. Due to the negative power of the Smyth lens group and the placement of the focal plane and field stop inside where they must be, the aperture of the Smyth group must be /larger/ than the field stop aperture. If you look hard into the bottom of one of these eyepieces, you may be able to tell that.

The net result of all of this is that this places an upper limit to the maximum focal length of such an eyepiece to be around 22mm if you wish to not have any vignetting. So, unless Explore has reinvented optics (I don't expect that to be the case), the only other option I can see is to allow for some vignetting to take place.

There were a great many people hoping for a 100 degree Ethos from TeleVue that was long enough to take the place of the 31mm Nagler so that they could retire that eyepiece in favor of an all-Ethos line of eyepieces, and they were hoping for something like a 24-25mm for that purpose, but the practical limit of the design without making compromises was 21mm due to the confines of a 2" barrel, that is why they didn't make it any longer. In order to make a longer focal length, you would need to go to a larger barrel.

And I suspect that was a similar constraint in ES choosing 20mm for their very similar eyepiece. SO, either Explore has chosen to allow a considerable amount of vignetting to occur in the periphery, or they have departed greatly from the original design, which I do not see happening while also maintaining equal performance. Therefore, we do not really know what we are buying here and I myself would be a bit hesitant to invest in one blindly before others have had a chance to sample the eyepiece and evaluate it.

The one maxim that holds true for all of optics is that there are no free lunches: You do not gain in one area without giving something up somewhere else. For ES to have crossed the 22mm threshold still within the limits of a 2-inch barrel, they must have made some compromises elsewhere. ;^)

I would expect the eyepiece to likely have both visible vignetting (limb-darkening around the edges), not be a true 100-degree AFOV, and/or probably have a loss of eye relief (smaller eye lens) as a consequence, which is already at a minimum in the present ES design.

Regards,

Wayne


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stevenp_86
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Reged: 11/30/11

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5047053 - 01/30/12 11:40 PM

hmm...

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94bamf
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Reged: 12/15/08

Loc: Kansas City,Mo
Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5047101 - 01/31/12 12:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There are quite a few 2" EPs over 21mm. I have a TeleVue 35mm Panoptic. I have 42mm and 50mm 2" EPs ordered and on the way now.




Mr. Black, et al., I think the matter is a bit more complicated than you may realize. You see, it is already well established that the ES-100 design is at least /very/ similar to that of the Ethos, at least according to x-ray analysis. Basically, these eyepieces work with a negative-power Smyth lens group /ahead/ of the field stop, which is internal, about half way to the next lens, which is a positive meniscus. These 4 lenses operate together as a powermate-like group with the field stop placed within the group after the third lens.

Look at the bottom of any of these eyepieces and you will see that there is no external field stop present like in a normal eyepiece, and if you bring your finger up to the field lens while looking through, you will not find any point where you can bring your finger into focus looking thorough the eyepiece! That is because the focal plane is well inside.

It is this group which is both essential to and really the basis for the performance of the eyepiece. Due to the negative power of the Smyth lens group and the placement of the focal plane and field stop inside where they must be, the aperture of the Smyth group must be /larger/ than the field stop aperture. If you look hard into the bottom of one of these eyepieces, you may be able to tell that.

The net result of all of this is that this places an upper limit to the maximum focal length of such an eyepiece to be around 22mm if you wish to not have any vignetting. So, unless Explore has reinvented optics (I don't expect that to be the case), the only other option I can see is to allow for some vignetting to take place.

There were a great many people hoping for a 100 degree Ethos from TeleVue that was long enough to take the place of the 31mm Nagler so that they could retire that eyepiece in favor of an all-Ethos line of eyepieces, and they were hoping for something like a 24-25mm for that purpose, but the practical limit of the design without making compromises was 21mm due to the confines of a 2" barrel, that is why they didn't make it any longer. In order to make a longer focal length, you would need to go to a larger barrel.

And I suspect that was a similar constraint in ES choosing 20mm for their very similar eyepiece. SO, either Explore has chosen to allow a considerable amount of vignetting to occur in the periphery, or they have departed greatly from the original design, which I do not see happening while also maintaining equal performance. Therefore, we do not really know what we are buying here and I myself would be a bit hesitant to invest in one blindly before others have had a chance to sample the eyepiece and evaluate it.

The one maxim that holds true for all of optics is that there are no free lunches: You do not gain in one area without giving something up somewhere else. For ES to have crossed the 22mm threshold still within the limits of a 2-inch barrel, they must have made some compromises elsewhere. ;^)

I would expect the eyepiece to likely have both visible vignetting (limb-darkening around the edges), not be a true 100-degree AFOV, and/or probably have a loss of eye relief (smaller eye lens) as a consequence, which is already at a minimum in the present ES design.

Regards,

Wayne




Good stuff..

I think we are at an interesting point for Explore Scientific. It seems pretty well established that their other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces are pretty close to copies/clones of the TV Ethos line, whether people want to believe it or not(or care). It also seems well established that their clones/copies don't quite fully meet the quality/correction/execution of the Ethos line. This is what makes the 9mm 120 deg AFOV and the 25mm 100 deg AFOV eyepieces quite interesting. Two different focal length/AFOV combos that Televue has never produced. It really is a test to see if ES can match the quality/correction/execution of their other "copied" 100 deg AFOV eyepieces(20mm,14mm,9mm). I wish them well, and I hope they can do it. If either or both eyepieces have "issues" like vignetting or poor outer field correction, or other aberrations, it could hurt..

Ken


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Ernest_SPB
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5047182 - 01/31/12 01:38 AM

I thought before that only reason for TV do not produce 25 mm Ethos is prevention of internal concurrence with their flagship 31 mm Nagler.

It looks like ES is free from the reason and does not afraid concurrence too much.


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tmbuser6
sage
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Reged: 07/01/11

Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5047233 - 01/31/12 02:53 AM

Quote:

Good stuff..

I think we are at an interesting point for Explore Scientific. It seems pretty well established that their other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces are pretty close to copies/clones of the TV Ethos line, whether people want to believe it or not(or care). It also seems well established that their clones/copies don't quite fully meet the quality/correction/execution of the Ethos line. This is what makes the 9mm 120 deg AFOV and the 25mm 100 deg AFOV eyepieces quite interesting. Two different focal length/AFOV combos that Televue has never produced. It really is a test to see if ES can match the quality/correction/execution of their other "copied" 100 deg AFOV eyepieces(20mm,14mm,9mm). I wish them well, and I hope they can do it. If either or both eyepieces have "issues" like vignetting or poor outer field correction, or other aberrations, it could hurt..

Ken




Ken, both the ES-100 and Ethos have been x-rayed and look too close (identical really) to be a coincidence. The Ethos has been taken apart and analyzed by people I know. Both the Ethos and the ES-100 have been rigorously tested side by side, and there is no doubt to me and others that the ES-100 is very good for the money, and very close, but the extra price of the Ethos buys you better optical quality which diverges apart more greatly the further off axis you go, and without the essential eye relief the Ethos has which makes it comfortable to use. THAT is what you are buying with the Ethos and giving up with the Explore. Not that the Explore isn't a good value, but surely no one thinks they are getting as good a design at hundreds of dollars less? Televue are the grandfathers of such designs and would not charge so much at their own peril of lost sales without good reason if they didn't have to.

When the 21mm Ethos came out, it came out under 22mm AS PREDICTED. The Ethos SX design at 110 degrees is just beyond the eye's range to see all at once. I see the 9mm 120 degree design as ponderously heavy and essentially pointless as no one will ever be able to see the entire FOV at once, so they are really paying for something they can never use. In practice, the view will never look any wider than an SX. In my opinion they are playing a numbers and marketing game with people. I've used hundreds of eyepieces over 46 years, I have yet to have any of them fog up for not being purged or sealed with o-rings. But if you had such a sealed eyepiece, you sure would be hesitant to take it apart, wouldn't you?

I think your assessments above are indeed quite accurate, and it will be interesting to read from those who plunk down $1000 and $500 on two really unknown and untested designs from a company which has, to date, seemingly built most of its laurels on the work of others, making less expensive copies. If we were talking about small sums of money I could understand it, but now we are talking about people pre-ordering a ONE-THOUSAND DOLLAR eyepiece that no one has ever even seen yet? And a $500 25mm eyepiece that TeleVue themselves would not build? Yes, expect to pay about $500 for it.

Frankly, it amazes me that when the 13mm Ethos came out in the fall 2008, most people were denouncing them as a gimmick, unnecessary and vastly too large, heavy and expensive; now folks are racing to enthusiastically buy a $1000 3 pound eyepiece with twelve lenses in it. That is like stacking an Abbe Ortho on top of another Abbe Ortho on top of another. But if anyone did that, they would be considered crazy, not revolutionary ;^)

The idea of a 7 or 8 element eyepiece has been around for a long time, but a 12-element design? That is a telephoto camera lens! That is four-fold the complexity of an 8-element design. Do you think there will be some ghosting issues and other losses there? ;^)

What are people really buying with these garish designs, good optics or merely an idea and a status symbol to hang on their telescopes? Something to think about before you mortgage the house. The greatest truth in optics is that there are no free lunches. You ALWAYS give something up to gain something somewhere else.

Regards,

Wayne


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rockethead26
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5047380 - 01/31/12 07:43 AM

Quote:

I've used hundreds of eyepieces over 46 years, I have yet to have any of them fog up for not being purged or sealed with o-rings.




But, as reported here on CN, others have.

Quote:

But if you had such a sealed eyepiece, you sure would be hesitant to take it apart, wouldn't you?




So ES decided to purge their EPs only so no one would take them apart and look at the construction?

Quote:

Frankly, it amazes me that when the 13mm Ethos came out in the fall 2008, most people were denouncing them as a gimmick, unnecessary and vastly too large, heavy and expensive; now folks are racing to enthusiastically buy a $1000 3 pound eyepiece with twelve lenses in it. That is like stacking an Abbe Ortho on top of another Abbe Ortho on top of another. But if anyone did that, they would be considered crazy, not revolutionary ;^)




And, history repeats itself yet again.

Quote:

The idea of a 7 or 8 element eyepiece has been around for a long time, but a 12-element design? That is a telephoto camera lens! That is four-fold the complexity of an 8-element design. Do you think there will be some ghosting issues and other losses there? ;^)

What are people really buying with these garish designs, good optics or merely an idea and a status symbol to hang on their telescopes? Something to think about before you mortgage the house. The greatest truth in optics is that there are no free lunches. You ALWAYS give something up to gain something somewhere else.

Regards,

Wayne




Sound like what folks were saying when the 7-8 element EPs were first introduced. Nothing ever changes except change itself.

It will certainly be interesting to get some first-hand reports of the 25mm 100 and the 5.5mm 100, not to mention the 120 9mm.

With the ES company history of producing some really excellent eyepieces and refractors for a very fair price, I really don't think ES would introduce 3 new poorly designed EPs that would wreck their growing reputation just to out-do the competition.

Just my two cents.


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Darenwh
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 05/11/06

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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scott in NC]
      #5047492 - 01/31/12 09:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually the 5.5mm will be out close enough to my wife's birthday that I could buy it for her!!




Hope she's an astronomer, too. Otherwise you'll really be in the doghouse!



It's my hobby but she likes going out with me. Still, I will be in the dog house but a few days in the dog house is a small price to pay for such grand views...


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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5047513 - 01/31/12 09:32 AM

As long as you have a good view of the sky from the dog house, I don't see a problem.


Mike


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5047561 - 01/31/12 10:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Frankly, it amazes me that when the 13mm Ethos came out in the fall 2008, most people were denouncing them as a gimmick, unnecessary and vastly too large, heavy and expensive; now folks are racing to enthusiastically buy a $1000 3 pound eyepiece with twelve lenses in it. That is like stacking an Abbe Ortho on top of another Abbe Ortho on top of another. But if anyone did that, they would be considered crazy, not revolutionary ;^)




And, history repeats itself yet again.






I see the way people thought of the Ethos in this manner as being a reaction to it's size more than anything else. Many people considered it to be crazy due to the size and balance issues it would cause. Since then people have learned to deal with balance issues well enough that they are less inclined to consider a large eyepiece to be crazy. Now, we have become believers in the wider AFOV eyepieces.

Per Wiki the eye can see in each direction at least 60 degrees so 120 degree eyepieces should be fine for the eye. I would love to try one of those eyepieces but they are out of my budget range. I suspect, with Explore Scientific's record, that these will be very nice eyepieces.

Will there be vignetting in the outer regions of the FOV? Perhaps but if it's not too intrusive I think many people will be quite satisfied anyways.

Can the eye see details in the entire field of view? Quite likely not but they will be able to see detail in as much of the field as anybody ever looks at in any eyepiece. The advantage of UWA eyepieces is being able to look at details of objects off center as well. If the field is very good to great to the edge you can follow a planet to the edge enjoying a long period of time looking without needing to nudge an undriven scope. If your using a driven scope looking at large objects (Moon, nebula, clusters, etc...) then the UWA designs permit you to look around at leasure at the field looking for details in different areas while still having those parts of the object you may not be looking directly at there for you to enjoy at a whim. Even with an Ortho eyepiece your eye still sees out the same distance, it just doesn't see anything but black outside of the image area. Some people enjoy that framing of the object in darkness, others don't.

It's up to the individual to decide what they enjoy and trying to tell people the extra field is useless is like telling people that a bigger engine is useless in their car or truck. That's for the individual to decide, not for you or anybody but the individual.


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5047574 - 01/31/12 10:12 AM

Quote:


Mr. Black, et al., I think the matter is a bit more complicated than you may realize. You see, it is already well established that the ES-100 design is at least /very/ similar to that of the Ethos, at least according to x-ray analysis. Basically, these eyepieces work with a negative-power Smyth lens group /ahead/ of the field stop, which is internal, about half way to the next lens, which is a positive meniscus. These 4 lenses operate together as a powermate-like group with the field stop placed within the group after the third lens.

Look at the bottom of any of these eyepieces and you will see that there is no external field stop present like in a normal eyepiece, and if you bring your finger up to the field lens while looking through, you will not find any point where you can bring your finger into focus looking thorough the eyepiece! That is because the focal plane is well inside.




True.

Quote:


It is this group which is both essential to and really the basis for the performance of the eyepiece. Due to the negative power of the Smyth lens group and the placement of the focal plane and field stop inside where they must be, the aperture of the Smyth group must be /larger/ than the field stop aperture. If you look hard into the bottom of one of these eyepieces, you may be able to tell that.




Completely false!
What do you mean look hard into the bottom? You just need to measure it with a ruler:
Ethos 17 filed stop =29.6, filed lens =29.6
Nagler 5 and 7 both have field lens **smaller than field stop.
As expected, if the Smyth groups acts as a barlow, naturally the rays diverge and therefore the barlow aperture does not need to be larger than field stop.
And then based on this false statement, you repeat again and again the ES eyepiece is compromised and will vignette.

Quote:


The net result of all of this is that this places an upper limit to the maximum focal length of such an eyepiece to be around 22mm if you wish to not have any vignetting. So, unless Explore has reinvented optics (I don't expect that to be the case), the only other option I can see is to allow for some vignetting to take place.

There were a great many people hoping for a 100 degree Ethos from TeleVue that was long enough to take the place of the 31mm Nagler so that they could retire that eyepiece in favor of an all-Ethos line of eyepieces, and they were hoping for something like a 24-25mm for that purpose, but the practical limit of the design without making compromises was 21mm due to the confines of a 2" barrel, that is why they didn't make it any longer. In order to make a longer focal length, you would need to go to a larger barrel.

And I suspect that was a similar constraint in ES choosing 20mm for their very similar eyepiece. SO, either Explore has chosen to allow a considerable amount of vignetting to occur in the periphery, or they have departed greatly from the original design, which I do not see happening while also maintaining equal performance. Therefore, we do not really know what we are buying here and I myself would be a bit hesitant to invest in one blindly before others have had a chance to sample the eyepiece and evaluate it.

The one maxim that holds true for all of optics is that there are no free lunches: You do not gain in one area without giving something up somewhere else. For ES to have crossed the 22mm threshold still within the limits of a 2-inch barrel, they must have made some compromises elsewhere. ;^)

I would expect the eyepiece to likely have both visible vignetting (limb-darkening around the edges), not be a true 100-degree AFOV, and/or probably have a loss of eye relief (smaller eye lens) as a consequence, which is already at a minimum in the present ES design.

Regards,

Wayne




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Scott in NCAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5047604 - 01/31/12 10:33 AM

Quote:

It's my hobby but she likes going out with me. Still, I will be in the dog house but a few days in the dog house is a small price to pay for such grand views...




Then here's what you have to do. Tell you that you've got some jewels for her birthday, and then show her the Double Cluster through your new EP. Of course you realize that you're going to have to have some real jewelry to surprise her with after that, lest she whomp you over the head with your OTA!


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5047632 - 01/31/12 10:46 AM

I prefer TV to ES, and if TV announces an Ethos 25 or similar till April, I will buy it instead of the ES. However...

Quote:


I've used hundreds of eyepieces over 46 years, I have yet to have any of them fog up for not being purged or sealed with o-rings.




I have only TV eyepieces , not ES eyepieces, but my Ethoses and Naglers sure fog several times every time. I can not confirm that purging would avoid it, but fogging sure is a problem.

Quote:


I think your assessments above are indeed quite accurate, and it will be interesting to read from those who plunk down $1000 and $500 on two really unknown and untested designs from a company which has, to date, seemingly built most of its laurels on the work of others, making less expensive copies. If we were talking about small sums of money I could understand it, but now we are talking about people pre-ordering a ONE-THOUSAND DOLLAR eyepiece that no one has ever even seen yet? And a $500 25mm eyepiece that TeleVue themselves would not build? Yes, expect to pay about $500 for it.




So, ES is to blame when copying other designs, but is also to blame when coming with new designs because they copied some in the past. Sure ES 120 and ES 25 are derivate from Ethos, but also most of TV eyepieces (Plossls, Naglers, etc) are derivate from other designs.

Quote:


Frankly, it amazes me that when the 13mm Ethos came out in the fall 2008, most people were denouncing them as a gimmick, unnecessary and vastly too large, heavy and expensive; now folks are racing to enthusiastically buy a $1000 3 pound eyepiece with twelve lenses in it. That is like stacking an Abbe Ortho on top of another Abbe Ortho on top of another. But if anyone did that, they would be considered crazy, not revolutionary ;^)

The idea of a 7 or 8 element eyepiece has been around for a long time, but a 12-element design? That is a telephoto camera lens! That is four-fold the complexity of an 8-element design. Do you think there will be some ghosting issues and other losses there? ;^)




You mean 12-element like the Nikon HW which is better than Ethos?
Funny, when TV came up with 9-element Ethos several people made the same comments you made now.


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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: rockethead26]
      #5047699 - 01/31/12 11:20 AM

My impression of Explore Scientific is very similar to the way Meade used to operate. I guess that should be no surprise since Scott Roberts is the former VP at Meade Instruments.

Meade used to copy and clone Televue eyepieces. They claimed to have a slightly different design goal but they were pretty darn close to Naglers. Of course to try and distinguish themselves from Televue they made slightly different focal lengths and instead of 82 degrees AFOV they claimed to have 84 degrees.

So ES comes out with 82 degree and then 100 degree eyepieces. Based on disassembly and x-ray of some units it seems pretty obvious they cloned the Ethos. Televue says yes you can reverse engineer their eyepieces and get the glass types and curves right but its nearly impossible to copy the coatings. Televue states that not only do they use coatings to reduce reflections but they also use them to tune color correction. Possibly one of the reasons that people find ES eyepieces close but not quite as good as Televue.

Quote:

The Ethos SX design at 110 degrees is just beyond the eye's range to see all at once. I see the 9mm 120 degree design as ponderously heavy and essentially pointless as no one will ever be able to see the entire FOV at once,




I can see the entire field in my Ethos SX and the field stop at once. I dont think Im the only one. So I dont agree with you that 120 degrees is pointless. I want more field if I can get it and its of good quality. However, I have to wonder how good it is. The ole 13mm Nagler was stopped down to 82 degrees but I believe the original patent is for 90 degrees. I bet you can see 100 degrees in one without the field stop. People used to take them out but the image quality starts to degrade sharply after 82 degrees or so. I bet the Ethos SX can go to 120 degrees too but what does the final 10 degrees look like. Has anyone ever received or looked through an ES 9mm 120 degree eyepiece?

Quote:

Quote:

I've used hundreds of eyepieces over 46 years, I have yet to have any of them fog up for not being purged or sealed with o-rings.




But, as reported here on CN, others have.




Well just because its happened to a few people doesnt make this a very important feature. Mind you, I dont think its a gimmick. I think its a legitimate feature but not of much value to me. If two eyepieces were identical and of equal price why not buy the nitrogen purged one. But if it cost even a few bucks more Id pass.

Canon and Nikon make some magnificent camera lenses with far more than 12 glass elements so Im sure it can be done with an eyepiece.

But until we actually have a 120 degree eyepiece to look through its speculation as to whether or not it renders a quality field of view. Thats what counts.

ES like Meade of old seems to be trying to distinguish itself from Televue by one-uping them with the 120 degree field and the 25mm 100 degree eyepiece. But Ill be surprised if the 25mm does not vignette. I have to wonder if it even exists yet since there are no pictures. Listing the weight as just a bit heavier than their 20mm doesnt convince me that they even have a working prototype. But theyve been able to bring products to the marketplace thus far so Im willing to wait and see.


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5048223 - 01/31/12 03:34 PM

Quote:

Per Wiki the eye can see in each direction at least 60 degrees so 120 degree eyepieces should be fine for the eye.




Hmm. I have exceptional vision and peripheral sensitivity. If I look on axis through an SX, I cannot catch the field stop, but catch the stop in an Ethos easy. Seems to me you would have to have extraordinary FOV perception in order to be able to catch a 120 degree stop! Perhaps it something to do with the shape of the eye socket or face?

Regards,

Wayne


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5048268 - 01/31/12 04:02 PM

Quote:

Completely false!
What do you mean look hard into the bottom? You just need to measure it with a ruler:
Ethos 17 filed stop =29.6, filed lens =29.6
Nagler 5 and 7 both have field lens **smaller than field stop.
As expected, if the Smyth groups acts as a barlow, naturally the rays diverge and therefore the barlow aperture does not need to be larger than field stop.
And then based on this false statement, you repeat again and again the ES eyepiece is compromised and will vignette.




I am sorry if you misunderstood me. You cannot reach the field stop with a ruler to measure it. The Ethos is not a Nagler, my statements are based upon the actual disassembly of an Ethos and a comprehensive ray tracing of the design by Roger Cergioli under the supervision of Dr. Richard A. Buchroeder, Ph.D.; I will let them know they were wrong. But is not the result still the same, as I just measured the field lens in the 21mm Ethos (since we are really talking about going wider) and it looks to be about 38.5mm, as large a lens as will fit within the barrel! So the inevitable result of increasing the focal length in any regard would still seem to be a vignetting of the peripheral field by a 25mm using a similar design. And other designs out there like the Koeler have inferior off axis performance.

Regards,

Wayne


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Smithfr2000
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048276 - 01/31/12 04:08 PM

Quote:

But Ill be surprised if the 25mm does not vignette




Is it the physical limit of the EP design which would produce vignetting, or the fully illuminated field which would be too small for most of the scopes ?

Edited by Smithfr2000 (01/31/12 04:10 PM)


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5048295 - 01/31/12 04:18 PM

Quote:

I have only TV eyepieces , not ES eyepieces, but my Ethoses and Naglers sure fog several times every time. I can not confirm that purging would avoid it, but fogging sure is a problem.




I am surprised to hear that. I have never had internal fogging of an eyepiece or seen it by anyone else at a starparty.

Quote:

You mean 12-element like the Nikon HW which is better than Ethos?




Well, first of all, better by whose assessment? The optics in the Ethos are essentially perfect and if I add a Powermate to my apo using the 13mm Ethos, I can no longer see any difference between the periphery and the center field at all! So any improvement would have to be very, very minor. THe Nikon does use a larger eye lens so I understand it would have even better eye relief.

Second, if I ever have an issue with an Ethos, I can drive to TeleVue and they will fix it for me. The Nikon is, last I checked, about TWICE or THREE TIMES the cost of an Ethos! I love my optics but no eyepiece is worth that much to me for such a small improvement! Truly, the emperors robes! ;^)

Regards,

Wayne


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dyslexic nam
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048426 - 01/31/12 05:34 PM

I find it interesting that you can label an Ethos as optically 'essentially perfect' (and admit to using one), while you feel justified in labeling the forthcoming ES ep's as a 'garish design'. It is that lack of objectively - coupled with a complete lack of empirical data regarding the new ES offerings - that tends to get people a bit annoyed. At least it annoys me. And you certainly aren't the only one on CN who has these tendencies.

I get that Nagler has done a lot for astronomy. Kudos to him. I assume he has been compensated for his efforts. But there seems to be a group of people on here that seem to think 'uncle Al' has exclusive domain on ep innovation. At least that is the impression I get from reading many of those posts.

In fairness, it is true that ES seems to have based their current ep lines on existing designs. But given their demonstrated ability to produce quality optics, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their announced offerings. I may be proven wrong, but I know that I don't feel justified is assuming that their new ep's will be garish designs suffering from vignetting and fatal design compromises.


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JMW
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5048602 - 01/31/12 07:07 PM

I am excited enough about a 25MM ES 100 that I placed the preorder. My Ethos 21 is my favorite eyepiece. The 25 will fill the place between my Ethos 21 and my Naglar 31T5. Using wide field eyepieces under very dark sky's with our clubs Obsession 20 inch F5 is my favorite way to observe.

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bherv
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5048612 - 01/31/12 07:14 PM


Well put. I have been very happy with my ES eyepieces and have compared the view with some Televue eyepieces and found the difference negligible. Yes Televue eyepieces are top notch but many of us just can't afford to shell out $600 on an eyepiece.
Barry


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048641 - 01/31/12 07:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Completely false!
What do you mean look hard into the bottom? You just need to measure it with a ruler:
Ethos 17 filed stop =29.6, filed lens =29.6
Nagler 5 and 7 both have field lens **smaller than field stop.
As expected, if the Smyth groups acts as a barlow, naturally the rays diverge and therefore the barlow aperture does not need to be larger than field stop.
And then based on this false statement, you repeat again and again the ES eyepiece is compromised and will vignette.




I am sorry if you misunderstood me. You cannot reach the field stop with a ruler to measure it. The Ethos is not a Nagler, my statements are based upon the actual disassembly of an Ethos and a comprehensive ray tracing of the design by Roger Cergioli under the supervision of Dr. Richard A. Buchroeder, Ph.D.; I will let them know they were wrong. But is not the result still the same, as I just measured the field lens in the 21mm Ethos (since we are really talking about going wider) and it looks to be about 38.5mm, as large a lens as will fit within the barrel! So the inevitable result of increasing the focal length in any regard would still seem to be a vignetting of the peripheral field by a 25mm using a similar design. And other designs out there like the Koeler have inferior off axis performance.

Regards,

Wayne




I state that you are spreading false information about field lens aperture and field stop, two things that anyone can easily check, and you come talking about ray-tracing and PhDs?
Field lens is easy to measure with a ruler, no need to open eyepiece. Field stop is given by Televue in TV site.

You dont need to put any lens inside the 2 barrel. Pan 35 is 2 eyepiece and does not have any lens inside 2 barrel. So you can have a 2 Ethos with a 46mm clear aperture field lens, the lens can be outside the 2 barrel, it will just require extra infocus.
So with 46mm clear aperture field lens you can have a 2 26mm Ethos, it is a fact no one can dispute. The only thing people can say is that it will need more infocus as all the lenses need to be outside 2 barrel. In the end it is the same as some TV eyepieces with 2 lenses but with 1.25 barrel.


Edited by pbsastro (01/31/12 07:54 PM)


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5048696 - 01/31/12 08:08 PM

Quote:

I find it interesting that you can label an Ethos as optically 'essentially perfect' (and admit to using one), while you feel justified in labeling the forthcoming ES ep's as a 'garish design'.




Hey, I didn't label the Ethos as essentially perfect optics, that is a direct quote from some of the leading optical experts in the industry! I just happen to agree with them. And as far as "objectivity" and "annoyance" and garish, I was referring to my own opinion of someone needing or wanting to put twelve lenses into an eyepiece to look at something. I never said I was being "objective," your annoyance is at your own hands and not my doing because folks read more into words than what was actually said.

Regards,

Wayne


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hfjacinto
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048802 - 01/31/12 09:05 PM

Wayne,

Considering you haven't looked through the 25MM ES, isn't your "objective" opinion a little premature? Actually have you looked through the ES 100* eyepieces at all, to so strongly condemn them?

I have and while Televue is slightly better the differences are negligible. Kind of like your opinion below:

Quote:

"The Nikon is, last I checked, about TWICE or THREE TIMES the cost of an Ethos! I love my optics but no eyepiece is worth that much to me for such a small improvement! Truly, the emperors robes!




To some the 2-3 price difference of an Ethos to an ES is not worth the small improvement. Now before you state that I am an ES fan boy, I can state that I own no ES eyepiece (most of my eyepieces are Naglers) but I have viewed through enough eyepieces, that if was purely visual, my set-up would have 100* ES eyepieces.


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5048812 - 01/31/12 09:12 PM

Quote:

So with 46mm clear aperture field lens you can have a 2 26mm Ethos, it is a fact no one can dispute.




Right. Hey, you can think or claim whatever you want, dude. I just came here to try to inform people as to why the longest Ethos was made 21mm and what the likely issues and changes that would have to occur to successfully get 25mm f.l. 100-degree in a 2-inch format without giving up quality. Not to bicker with someone ad nauseum to pointless ends. I suggest you take your ideas and design to Mr. Nagler. I know the source and veracity of my info and really don't care to argue with you, you are either confused in what you say or entirely misunderstand what I have said. Fine. Silly me, quoting the opinion of someone with a Ph.D. in optics! There are designs which can put a 25-26mm eyepiece with 110 degree view into a package only 50mm long! Only problem with them is that they suffer aberrations.

I really don't care about the AFOV. I enjoy many eyepieces from the Ethos down to monocentrics with only 30 degrees. I am neither bothered by narrow field claustrophobia nor suffer from wide-field fever where I want a 150 degree fov box I can put my head in and look around. I am DELIGHTED that someone produced an eyepiece SO WIDE and as SO CLOSE to perfect as the Ethos, and at a cost that isn't too insane.

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

But I do realize that TeleVue is the reason for the entire eyepiece industry as we know it today, and have been the source of innovation in eyepieces since the late '70's. All the other great lines by Pentax, Nikon, etc., well they probably wouldn't be there if TeleVue hadn't laid down the groundwork for creating a market for such eyepieces.

I also know that the best quality has always come from TeleVue with rare exceptions. Clave made a better plossl, and where are they? Nikon makes a slightly nicer 100 degreer, but look at what they cost!

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.

But that is just my own opinion and position, ymmv. Me, I have already spent way more time on this thread than I ever set out or intended to do.

Regards,

Wayne


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dyslexic nam
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5048885 - 01/31/12 10:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I find it interesting that you can label an Ethos as optically 'essentially perfect' (and admit to using one), while you feel justified in labeling the forthcoming ES ep's as a 'garish design'.




Hey, I didn't label the Ethos as essentially perfect optics, that is a direct quote from some of the leading optical experts in the industry! I just happen to agree with them. And as far as "objectivity" and "annoyance" and garish, I was referring to my own opinion of someone needing or wanting to put twelve lenses into an eyepiece to look at something. I never said I was being "objective," your annoyance is at your own hands and not my doing because folks read more into words than what was actually said.

Regards,

Wayne




So it is garish to put 12 elements in an ep, but you previously praised the qualities of an ethos (9 elements) in a powermate (4 elements). Um, okay.

Anywho, I don't feel the need to carry this any further. I just felt like calling out some of the inconsistencies in your post. It is your prerogative to state your opinion (and I, mine), but when you dress it up in references to ray tracing and optical experts and allege evidence that a forthcoming product will be demonstrably inferior, I think you have an intellectual responsibility to separate factual analysis from opinion and bias.


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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5049302 - 02/01/12 06:52 AM

Quote:

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.




Bravo, well said! I, too, only support the innovators. I have zero interest in what Jinghua/ES brings to market.


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Phillip Creed
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5049340 - 02/01/12 07:22 AM

Explore Scientific and Televue are companies, not churches. There's no need for a holy war. The bottom line in business is just that--the bottom line. Sales. Profit. The Consumer Is King. Offer the customer something they want more than their desire to hold onto their money, and your company makes a sale.

If you want optical perfection, and you can afford it, get the Televue. If you want 90% of the eyepiece for 40%-50% of the cost, go ES. There's a perfectly justifiable rationale for going either way. I've owned several Televue products, and my current line-up has both Televue and ES, peacefully co-existing in my eyepiece case.

As for the 25ES-100, I propose a bold course of action. We could--get this--actually wait until the (bleep)ing eyepiece gets in a qualified observer's focuser prior to passing judgment. Juuuuuuuust a thought.

Clear Skies,
Phil


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sniperpride
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #5049391 - 02/01/12 08:29 AM

We are lucky as consumers to have competition in sales. Otherwise with no competition, prices could be whatever they would like, as consumers would have no alternative.

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sixela
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5049443 - 02/01/12 09:21 AM

Quote:

I will let them know they were wrong.




You're forgetting one option: they are right and you misinterpreted what they are saying (or inferred things that should not be inferred, such as the location of the field stop within or without the barrel, the relative size of the physical field stop and effective field stop diameters in a negative-positive design, and how close the long focal length ES eyepieces would follow the Ethos design which, as far as I can see, is also actually not a scaled design).

By the way, even PhD owners can sometimes be wrong.

When PhD owners are quoted by others, the chances of the end result being correct is also lowered.


Edited by csa/montana (02/01/12 09:45 AM)


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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5049462 - 02/01/12 09:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.




Bravo, well said! I, too, only support the innovators. I have zero interest in what Jinghua/ES brings to market.




Sadly, the both of you are mistaken in your assessment of innovators. Scott and Russ from ES have been doing innovations on equipment. They relay that info to JOC to make changes constantly. I have beta tested products for them that are their own new ideas or ideas of customers who they have listened to. I strongly suspect I have the prototype "porcupine" focuser in my achro. This was something they modded on the fly and had me test while trying to determine optical problems in my shipping damaged scope. I ended up with a new scope where they put the modded focuser on the new one after determining the old one had lens seating issues. During my wait I also tested a custom twilight II mount that had been modded and possibly might get into a future production run. I don't know how you can pass armchair judgement on a company without first understanding or having firsthand experience of their products or what happens behind the scenes. Bravo to ES for what they do and their approach to making customers happy.

As has been mentioned - no need for holy wars on products. Both Televue and ES offer fine products.


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sixela
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: sixela]
      #5049468 - 02/01/12 09:35 AM

Quote:

I also know that the best quality has always come from TeleVue with rare exceptions.



The exceptions aren't so rare (not to mention that TeleVue doesn't make any Plssls shorter than 8mm, which means that TV doesn't even have eyepieces in some niches).

Unless you're artificially going to limit yourself to eyepieces that are not more expensive than TVs (which usually have a very good price/performance ratio), of course, but that is perilously close to begging the question.

If you don't, Leica, Zeiss, Nikon and Pentax and the Japanese that make the best Japanese orthos all still make eyepieces and you can dig to find TMBs and AP SPLs. Not to mention a certain US brand starting with a "B" which has a design with its share of warts but excellent finish.

In fact, what is "the best quality"? Even if you have oodles of eyepieces, it's not uncommon for eyepiece A to beat eyepiece B on certain metrics, targets and conditions and eyepiece B to beat eyepiece A on others.


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csa/montana
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #5049487 - 02/01/12 09:44 AM

Quote:

Explore Scientific and Televue are companies, not churches. There's no need for a holy war. The bottom line in business is just that--the bottom line. Sales. Profit. The Consumer Is King. Offer the customer something they want more than their desire to hold onto their money, and your company makes a sale.

If you want optical perfection, and you can afford it, get the Televue. If you want 90% of the eyepiece for 40%-50% of the cost, go ES. There's a perfectly justifiable rationale for going either way. I've owned several Televue products, and my current line-up has both Televue and ES, peacefully co-existing in my eyepiece case.

As for the 25ES-100, I propose a bold course of action. We could--get this--actually wait until the (bleep)ing eyepiece gets in a qualified observer's focuser prior to passing judgment. Juuuuuuuust a thought.

Clear Skies,
Phil




I think this sums it up very nicely!

We are all free to purchase what we want, & should not throw mud on others because their purchases do not agree with ours. I also have TV & ES co-existing in my eyepiece case quite peacefully; so let's do the same here, and while it's nice to have allegiance to a particular brand, that does not give an open door to disrespect other companies, or other member's options here. So let's continue the discussion on this new eyepiece in a respectful manner to all. As Phil says, let's wait till the eyepiece actually is in the hands of someone that can advise us of it's qualities or flaws, before passing judgement.


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: sixela]
      #5049488 - 02/01/12 09:45 AM

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.



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Fred1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: sixela]
      #5049515 - 02/01/12 10:00 AM

The pre-order ad states the target release is end of April. That coincides with NEAF. Now why would a manufacturer premier a product at NEAF? Who buys anything new and untested at NEAF?
Anyone want to start a pool on how many people will be in line to take the first look-throughs of these new eyepieces? Or of how many orders will be placed?


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skyward_eyes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049519 - 02/01/12 10:01 AM

Well no matter what anyone thinks, I plan on adding the ES 25 and ES 5.5 to my line up and complete the 100* collection. I am sure both will perform as well as the others, I seriously doubt a company such as Explore Scientific would release a sub-par piece to the public.

ES has has the innovation to design their own stuff as well. The ES 9mm 120 is a fine example.


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bsim
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049524 - 02/01/12 10:06 AM

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design, ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.

the bottom line is that everyone is free to purchase whatever they want,

Edited by bsim (02/01/12 10:17 AM)


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bsim]
      #5049535 - 02/01/12 10:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.




My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.

Please submit all future posts using one of these

Edited by Vondragonnoggin (02/01/12 10:21 AM)


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bsim
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049552 - 02/01/12 10:25 AM

Quote:


My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.




That's a broad statement that wasn't evident in your original post. You are now linking this discussion with commodities and the broader market. The discussions have centered around the astronomy market--not frying pans. This market is small and shrinking. Some people are drawing a line in the sand as they wish to reward the true innovator: TeleVue. And that is in their right. Others are saying who cares. And they are right too.

As far as "hypocrisy" or cognitive dissonance is concerned, we're all guilty. Humans aren't perfect or rational. If you demand perfect consistency, that's a Utopia that doesn't exist.

Again I reiterate everyone is free to choose what to buy. They can reward the innovator or reward the cloner. It's their choice.

I'll end my discussion here.


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bsim]
      #5049570 - 02/01/12 10:41 AM

I don't demand perfect consistency because I realize that is difficult, but then I also don't agree with posting quirky rationale on where someone draws a hypocritical line in the sand for all to scrutinize. It falls on deaf ears if someone is explaining the one area of goods they hold principal on where they compromise on ten others.

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stevenp_86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049571 - 02/01/12 10:43 AM

Quote:

Please submit all future posts using one of these




made me laugh so much


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bsim]
      #5049582 - 02/01/12 10:50 AM

Quote:

They can reward the innovator or reward the cloner. It's their choice.




Buying eyepieces is not about rewarding anyone; rather buying what an individual can afford to buy. As far as the constant reference to the "cloner"; I have a new ES30 eyepiece. I do not apologize to anyone for my choice; because I cannot afford to buy the equilavent TeleVue. Does this make me a terrible person? I certainly hope not! The ES line has opened up new choices for astronomy, that just about everyone can afford. Do I have the utmost respect for Mr. Nagler & his company? Absolutely, but again, the choice individuals make, is not about "rewarding" the company; rather the choice is what fits best in our equipment, our budget. We all look at the same night sky, what we use to look at it, is our choice, & should not be subjected to being "disloyal" to a particular company.

An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.


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BillP
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049617 - 02/01/12 11:11 AM

In a Free Enterprise system the enterprise which can bring the goods or services to market with the highest quality and at the lowest cost which meets the demands of the consumer gains their rewards by the market share their approach garners. So innovation is about much much more than simply technology advancements.

I "reward" those vendors which bring out what I consider the best for a reasonable cost, which is why I have eyepieces across an array of vendors: Zeiss/Baader, Pentax, Astro-Physics, Explore Scientific, Edmunds Scientific, Vernonscope, Long-Perng, Meade, and TeleVue. Each of these companies, in my estimation, have innovated in some way that none of the others in the list have related to the specific eyepieces I have chosen from them.

So is TeleVue an innovator in astronomical eyepieces? Yes! Is Explore Scientific an innovator? Yes! Each and every one of them is an innovator and not a one of them is to be sold short! In the end, the fabric of our hobby would be much poorer without any one of them. All are important and ALL deserve a share of the pot and they are all doing something that is both valuable and innovative for the consumer.

And btw, ES deserves some special rewards as the first to come out with a 120 degree consumer eyepiece design, and also the first to come out with a 100 degree 2" that maximizes the field stop capability of a 2" barrel more than anyone else!! Congrats are in order! Competition! Nothing like it!!

Edited by BillP (02/01/12 11:14 AM)


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stevenp_86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049660 - 02/01/12 11:28 AM

Quote:


An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.




its ok, i think all forms of discussion are important, i actually enjoy debates, even if it goes off topic of the original post


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049661 - 02/01/12 11:28 AM

I wonder if either of these manufacturers insures that the glass used in their eyepieces are manufactured by the original inventor of that type of glass? I wonder if any of the elements used in either of these companies eyepieces or telescopes are copies of basic designs that others designed before them? Was the Televue plossl a completely original design or is it just a copy of the original plossl design with some slight tweaking done by Televue?

Innovation is a process of taking what others have done before and finding ways to improve the product or to make a new product using that design. That may be by a complete redesign to improve the design or by making changes to make the design more affordable to a wider audience.

If a company chooses not to patent a design then they leave it open for others to emulate the design. That's a business decision for the company and one every company has to make for itself.

What ES has done is to create a 'Value line' set of eyepieces that performs very close to the top of the line TV eyepieces but for a better price. Perhaps TV should do the same so that people can choose to purchase TV's value line thereby limiting the ability of others to come in and undercut them in this manner.

TV seems to enjoy having their eyepieces be considered 'The' eyepieces to own and they price them as such. This allows them to sell those eyepieces for a good profit but also leaves the market wide open for a 2nd best competitor at a lower cost. As long as they do this they should expect such competition to emerge and as long as they do not patent their design they should expect that competitor to produce a copy that is close to the performance level of their design.

What TV has to watch out for with this business model is that the second tier value provider could innovate a line that could be superior to the TV line and market it at a cost that would be equal to or undercut the TV line. If this occurs then TV could be in trouble. Currently they are a small company that depends on their name, current product offerings, and history to insure that they stay the leader in the industry. If their product line is one upped then they could find themselves trying to stay viable when the market starts to turn from them. If the ES100 25 proves an excellent eyepiece after TV stated they would not produce such an eyepiece because of the compromises it would require and if the new ES120 9mm proves to be an excellent design then TV could find themselves on the defensive.

Either way, we live in very good times for the consumer of astronomical equipment.


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Pollux556
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5049773 - 02/01/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

They can reward the innovator or reward the cloner. It's their choice.

An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.





I follow this tread with great interest but a thing: Nothing is worse than fanaticism.


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Paul G
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049808 - 02/01/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.




My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.




Personally, I don't care one bit what anyone else buys, I was only stating my own preferences and choices. The obvious difference between an automobile or any other high volume product and the very small astronomy market supplied by small companies is that my personal purchase choices literally will make zero difference to the automobile or frying pan manufacturer, but they may make a difference to the small businesses that supply new products for our hobby. And as a small business owner myself I can appreciate the difference each customer makes. It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of being effective. I want to see more new and different products that can enhance my enjoyment of the hobby, and I plan my purchases with this in mind. Others don't, or don't care, and that's fine, too.

In such a small market no company is immune. As predatory as Meade has been throughout their history where are they now? Despite moving all manufacturing out of the country to save costs they just had a horrific financial year. Unless they can climb out of the hole they won't be around much longer in their current form.


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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5049810 - 02/01/12 12:58 PM

I've looked all over the Explore Scientific website to see if there's an announcement about this eyepiece but I can't find any.

I don't see anything about the 9mm 120 degree eyepiece either.

Have they published anything about either of these except what's on Astronomics website?


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Paul G
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5049823 - 02/01/12 01:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I realize that this whole "Explore" thing is just a "three-peat" of what was first done to Celestron in the '70's, later to TeleVue and now again to TeleVue by (amazingly enough) someone again tied to Meade. Wonder that! That's enough right there to stop in my tracks and say, sorry, I don't go there. I am not so tight or short of funds that I will not gladly wait to deal with a more ethical business that does not parasitically feed off of others. It would be different if "Explore" were actually innovating their own ideas and technology. Like someone else said, Televue could easily make a 25mm-100 or a 120 degreer if they wanted by simply taking out a field stop. But the same quality would not be there.

Its my personal choice to wait to see what TeleVue comes out with and if I have to pay more, I know the quality that will be there, the Ethos and Delos have set new standards in WF eyepiece quality, and I know that my investment in TeleVue will insure more great products in the future, not clones of other people's ideas and hard work.

Does anyone really imagine that if TV had not come out with the Ethos in 2008, that any of these new lines would be here today? Imagine if TeleVue disappeared tomorrow, do you really think the eyepiece market and industry would be the same or anywhere near where it will be in ten years with them around? I also realize that a small business like TeleVue doesn't prosper and keep reinvesting in new ideas if all their accomplishments and sales fly out the window to copy-cats.

I will be intrigued to read what these new eyepieces will be like, but for me at least, I will be happy to reinvest in the company that has stood beside me at star parties and transformed my hobby to what it is today for the past 32+ years.




Bravo, well said! I, too, only support the innovators. I have zero interest in what Jinghua/ES brings to market.




Sadly, the both of you are mistaken in your assessment of innovators. Scott and Russ from ES have been doing innovations on equipment. They relay that info to JOC to make changes constantly. I have beta tested products for them that are their own new ideas or ideas of customers who they have listened to. I strongly suspect I have the prototype "porcupine" focuser in my achro. This was something they modded on the fly and had me test while trying to determine optical problems in my shipping damaged scope. I ended up with a new scope where they put the modded focuser on the new one after determining the old one had lens seating issues. During my wait I also tested a custom twilight II mount that had been modded and possibly might get into a future production run. I don't know how you can pass armchair judgement on a company without first understanding or having firsthand experience of their products or what happens behind the scenes.




If those products actually hit the market and are new designs I will happily change my opinion of their focusers and mounts. But there's no way to explain away those eyepiece x-rays.


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5049860 - 02/01/12 01:33 PM

I haven't seen anything on their website either but I know that the 120 9mm was at a few larger public starparty's and many people were extremely impressed with the quality of the images in the prototype. It will be interesting to see the production eyepiece.


Here is a thread that discussed views through this eyepiece.


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csa/montana
Den Mama
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5049862 - 02/01/12 01:35 PM

Quote:

If those products actually hit the market and are new designs I will happily change my opinion of their focusers and mounts. But there's no way to explain away those eyepiece x-rays.





I don't know that anyone's try to change your mind, or explain any x-rays; rather that we are free to make choices that fit us, same as you are. Would some of us love to have all TV's in their eyepiece case? Perhaps. I for one, probably wouldn't live long enough to afford all that I need! In the meantime, I will be enjoying the night skies with the ES, Pentax, Meade UWA 4000, Masuyama's, and surprise; a couple of TV's! To sum it up; we are free to post our opinions, but that doesn't mean that we all have to agree with other opinions. What we choose & pay for, is what we, ourselves, use; no one else.


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5050104 - 02/01/12 03:57 PM

Quote:

im gona pick up one of these bad boys on the day of release, when will that be? how much?



I'd like a 25mm and a .....


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5050609 - 02/01/12 09:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would also hope that any here that are complaining about suspected reverse engineering and not original inventions, are driving vehicles with stone circles instead of modern wheels and tires.






You can make your assertions, but it's pretty clear to me that ES reverse engineered the Ethos. The X-rays speak volumes. Now, you can make the argument that TeleVue didn't patent the Ethos design and ES was free to copy it. As far as "innovation" is concerned, without copying the Ethos design ES wouldn't have been able to produce the ES120 or the ES100 25. So maybe it's better to call it derivative "innovation."

Ethos vs ES100

As a disclaimer I own a ES82 8.8mm EP, I've compared it with a Nagler 9T6 and found it pretty darn close. The Nagler 9T6 has better light baffling, but for most people it's close enough.




My point was that everyone who is not buying one because they suspect reverse engineering is probably using a product daily of some sort that has been reinvented by reverse engineering. If it is on principal that one does not use products they suspect like that, then they should be consistent and not use their frying pans or have real tires on their vehicles, or watch their TV unless it is the very first producer of the flat panel or other rediculous hoops one would have to jump through to attain not using products that have come about by reverse engineering.




Personally, I don't care one bit what anyone else buys, I was only stating my own preferences and choices. The obvious difference between an automobile or any other high volume product and the very small astronomy market supplied by small companies is that my personal purchase choices literally will make zero difference to the automobile or frying pan manufacturer, but they may make a difference to the small businesses that supply new products for our hobby. And as a small business owner myself I can appreciate the difference each customer makes. It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of being effective. I want to see more new and different products that can enhance my enjoyment of the hobby, and I plan my purchases with this in mind. Others don't, or don't care, and that's fine, too.

In such a small market no company is immune. As predatory as Meade has been throughout their history where are they now? Despite moving all manufacturing out of the country to save costs they just had a horrific financial year. Unless they can climb out of the hole they won't be around much longer in their current form.




Not true. The US has lost almost all its' manufacturing to lower cost asia. China is probably the worst example of reverse engineering, not honoring copyrights/trademarks.
China even had an "Apple"-like store selling counterfit Ipods where the employees even thought they were working for Apple, and they obviously were not. Every sale does make a difference.

But we live in a free economy where we can choose to buy any legal (non-counterfit) product, and patents only protect innovators for so long.


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5050634 - 02/01/12 09:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Please submit all future posts using one of these




made me laugh so much




Thanks it was getting too serious here.

P.S. We could go back to the teletype, the true innovator of long distance communication.


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5050639 - 02/01/12 09:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:


An apology is in order to the OP of this thread. This was started about an ES eyepiece, & has ended up as a TV loyalty vs "clone" thread. Very disappointing.




its ok, i think all forms of discussion are important, i actually enjoy debates, even if it goes off topic of the original post




I agree it should split off to a seperate post. Definitely not the original subject anymore.


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j3ffr0
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5052736 - 02/03/12 01:02 AM

I'm curious to hear how these eyepieces perform. They could be a good option for a number of folks

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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5053672 - 02/03/12 03:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Completely false!
What do you mean look hard into the bottom? You just need to measure it with a ruler:
Ethos 17 filed stop =29.6, filed lens =29.6
Nagler 5 and 7 both have field lens **smaller than field stop.
As expected, if the Smyth groups acts as a barlow, naturally the rays diverge and therefore the barlow aperture does not need to be larger than field stop.
And then based on this false statement, you repeat again and again the ES eyepiece is compromised and will vignette.




I am sorry if you misunderstood me. You cannot reach the field stop with a ruler to measure it. The Ethos is not a Nagler, my statements are based upon the actual disassembly of an Ethos and a comprehensive ray tracing of the design by Roger Cergioli under the supervision of Dr. Richard A. Buchroeder, Ph.D.; I will let them know they were wrong. But is not the result still the same, as I just measured the field lens in the 21mm Ethos (since we are really talking about going wider) and it looks to be about 38.5mm, as large a lens as will fit within the barrel! So the inevitable result of increasing the focal length in any regard would still seem to be a vignetting of the peripheral field by a 25mm using a similar design. And other designs out there like the Koeler have inferior off axis performance.

Regards,

Wayne




Wayne, who says the field lens has to be in the barrel? It can be at the end of the barrel and the EP could have an interesting in focus requirement, and be a real grenade..... But since as you say they can only copy what Televue does, we should just wait and see Televues 25E.... as well as Televues 9mm 120 degree as well for good measure. Obvisouly the E is an original design and thats why its.... oops forgot its not patented....

I am sure this 25 has been to some star parties, so there are probably folks who will chime in.......

The only issue is that if Explore is announcing pre-orders now it probably wont ship till Christmas or later (I am still waiting on my 9 120)....


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John Rhodes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5053919 - 02/03/12 06:14 PM

Quote:

we should just wait and see Televues 25E.... as well as Televues 9mm 120 degree as well for good measure. Obvisouly the E is an original design and thats why its.... oops forgot its not patented....




A few things,

We cannot go higher that 21 mm and keep it's Ethos... we would have to allow too may aberrations etc.

The Ethos line is complete and we don't anticipate any more in this design.

It is absolutely an original design ! We didn't patent the design because it forces us to explain everything in the patent,
making it easier to copy with practically no legal ramifications internationally.


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John K
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5054126 - 02/03/12 08:46 PM

Hear Hear..

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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5054363 - 02/03/12 11:33 PM

Quote:

I wonder if either of these manufacturers insures that the glass used in their eyepieces are manufactured by the original inventor of that type of glass? I wonder if any of the elements used in either of these companies eyepieces or telescopes are copies of basic designs that others designed before them? Was the Televue plossl a completely original design or is it just a copy of the original plossl design with some slight tweaking done by Televue?

Innovation is a process of taking what others have done before and finding ways to improve the product or to make a new product using that design. That may be by a complete redesign to improve the design or by making changes to make the design more affordable to a wider audience.

If a company chooses not to patent a design then they leave it open for others to emulate the design. That's a business decision for the company and one every company has to make for itself.

What ES has done is to create a 'Value line' set of eyepieces that performs very close to the top of the line TV eyepieces but for a better price. Perhaps TV should do the same so that people can choose to purchase TV's value line thereby limiting the ability of others to come in and undercut them in this manner.

TV seems to enjoy having their eyepieces be considered 'The' eyepieces to own and they price them as such. This allows them to sell those eyepieces for a good profit but also leaves the market wide open for a 2nd best competitor at a lower cost. As long as they do this they should expect such competition to emerge and as long as they do not patent their design they should expect that competitor to produce a copy that is close to the performance level of their design.

What TV has to watch out for with this business model is that the second tier value provider could innovate a line that could be superior to the TV line and market it at a cost that would be equal to or undercut the TV line. If this occurs then TV could be in trouble. Currently they are a small company that depends on their name, current product offerings, and history to insure that they stay the leader in the industry. If their product line is one upped then they could find themselves trying to stay viable when the market starts to turn from them. If the ES100 25 proves an excellent eyepiece after TV stated they would not produce such an eyepiece because of the compromises it would require and if the new ES120 9mm proves to be an excellent design then TV could find themselves on the defensive.

Either way, we live in very good times for the consumer of astronomical equipment.




Agree 100%!


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5054380 - 02/03/12 11:41 PM

Quote:

The Ethos line is complete and we don't anticipate any more in this design.




Heard that one before. Where there is a void (or customer want) it will eventually be filled. But I can understand why any company would not want to discuss future plans till it is soon to be released.


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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5055988 - 02/04/12 10:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The Ethos line is complete and we don't anticipate any more in this design.




Heard that one before. Where there is a void (or customer want) it will eventually be filled. But I can understand why any company would not want to discuss future plans till it is soon to be released.




Well I take John at his word.

But I notice he didn't say anything about the Ethos SX or perhaps an Ethos II line or perhaps......


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5056568 - 02/05/12 10:18 AM

John, Would you knpow is a Paracorr II would handle a ES 25mm 100 AFOV? Is the Paracorr II limit just based on f ratio (as advertised), or is it also limited on TFOV/AFOV, etc? Or is this not a limit at all, but just a gradual degredation as you get further away from the optimal design point?

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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5058514 - 02/06/12 01:34 PM Attachment (98 downloads)

Here's an image of the Explore Scientific 100 degree 25mm. List is $899.99. Retail is $599.99. Expected availability is April.

Current 82 degree and 100 degree eyepiece sale ends March 4. New prices go into effect March 5.

The 9mm 120 degree should start arriving late February/early March.

Edited by frebie (02/06/12 01:41 PM)


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dyslexic nam
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5058587 - 02/06/12 02:07 PM

Wow! Not a bad price.

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stevenp_86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5058635 - 02/06/12 02:35 PM

very good price, its affordable enough so many regular people like us can afford it without having to make sacrifices in other areas in life,

they had to do their own R&D, so considering that its a new model and it costs less then an ethos, id say good job ES


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stevenp_86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5058639 - 02/06/12 02:38 PM

one of the things i dislike about purchasing anything is buyers remorse, "is it worth the price? is it marked up 400%? will it go on sale in a few months?"

i can safley say at that price, no one will have to worry about the "fear" of purchasing it


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94bamf
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5058642 - 02/06/12 02:40 PM

Quote:

Here's an image of the Explore Scientific 100 degree 25mm. List is $899.99. Retail is $599.99. Expected availability is April.

Current 82 degree and 100 degree eyepiece sale ends March 4. New prices go into effect March 5.

The 9mm 120 degree should start arriving late February/early March.




Assuming the picture is accurate, it seems obvious that the design of this eyepiece is completely different from the other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces. It appears much shorter. Actually, it appears smaller in every way compared to the 20mm ES100. Can't wait to hear the reports..

Ken


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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5058765 - 02/06/12 03:43 PM

The image posted is a proof-of-performance production unit, serial #01 according to the manufacturer. Subsequent production units should be identical.

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Jeff Black
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5058775 - 02/06/12 03:48 PM

Just great... another $600 I have to spend.

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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5058899 - 02/06/12 05:04 PM

Quote:

Assuming the picture is accurate, it seems obvious that the design of this eyepiece is completely different from the other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces. It appears much shorter. Actually, it appears smaller in every way compared to the 20mm ES100.




Actually, it looks quite a bit wider than the 20mm to me. It might be a bit shorter or it could be the angle of the photo. Frankly, I would hesitate to make any guesses about the design based on a photo.

At least now it appears that they have more than a prototype.


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94bamf
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5058983 - 02/06/12 05:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Assuming the picture is accurate, it seems obvious that the design of this eyepiece is completely different from the other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces. It appears much shorter. Actually, it appears smaller in every way compared to the 20mm ES100.




Actually, it looks quite a bit wider than the 20mm to me. It might be a bit shorter or it could be the angle of the photo. Frankly, I would hesitate to make any guesses about the design based on a photo.

At least now it appears that they have more than a prototype.





Jim, the specs Fred provided in an earlier thread for the ES 25mm 100 are 73mm wide(2.87") by 134mm tall(5.27"). I don't have the specs, nor can I find them on the web for the ES 20mm 100, but I will measure mine as soon as I get home. Best I can do is David Knisely's specs for the 14mm 100, which are 6.25" x 2.75". I think the 20mm ES 100 is a bit wider than the 14mm.. No way the 25mm is the same optical arrangement with it being so much shorter..

Ken


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Phillip Creed
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5058986 - 02/06/12 05:59 PM

Dear Stargazer,

I know you love those 100-deg eyepieces, and they're about as pricey as I am, but please don't forget about me, okay?

Sincerely,
Your Mortgage Payment



Okay, okay; in all seriousness, $599 is a very reasonable price if it lives up to the hype. Combined with a Paracorr, that can still max-out a scope's TFOV while maintaining a reasonable exit pupil in all but the very fastest (< f/3.5) dobs out there. Anyone who's got an f/4 Schmidt-Newtonian (no Paracorr required) is probably really excited about this eyepiece.

Clear Skies,
Phil


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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Phillip Creed]
      #5059003 - 02/06/12 06:08 PM

The ES 100 degree 20mm is approximately 6-1/8" tall with the eyecup rolled down and 2.7" wide, give or take a furlong or two.

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94bamf
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5059010 - 02/06/12 06:16 PM

Quote:

The ES 100 degree 20mm is approximately 6-1/8" tall with the eyecup rolled down and 2.7" wide, give or take a furlong or two.




Thanks Fred, amazing how hard it is to find height and width specs for eyepieces online! Televue doesn't even list them for their eyepieces.

Ken


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5059344 - 02/06/12 10:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Here's an image of the Explore Scientific 100 degree 25mm. List is $899.99. Retail is $599.99. Expected availability is April.

Current 82 degree and 100 degree eyepiece sale ends March 4. New prices go into effect March 5.

The 9mm 120 degree should start arriving late February/early March.




Assuming the picture is accurate, it seems obvious that the design of this eyepiece is completely different from the other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces. It appears much shorter. Actually, it appears smaller in every way compared to the 20mm ES100. Can't wait to hear the reports..

Ken




Smaller or fatter perspective angle change? I wait to compare weight, length, width; which I assume would be larger for the 25mm. But you may be right in which case it would be a win-win for the design.


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5059360 - 02/06/12 10:21 PM

Has anyone seen a photo of the 5.5mm ES? OK to reply back in 5.5mm thread if yes.

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John Rhodes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5059377 - 02/06/12 10:28 PM

Quote:

Thanks Fred, amazing how hard it is to find height and width specs for eyepieces online! Televue doesn't even list them for their eyepieces.

Ken




Sure we do... http://www.televue.com/engine/TV3_page.asp?id=28


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5059405 - 02/06/12 10:46 PM

Actually, I believe Televue does the best job at listing eyepiece dimensions.

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94bamf
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5059507 - 02/06/12 11:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thanks Fred, amazing how hard it is to find height and width specs for eyepieces online! Televue doesn't even list them for their eyepieces.

Ken




Sure we do... http://www.televue.com/engine/TV3_page.asp?id=28




My apologies, somehow I missed the chart. I couldn't find the specs under the individual eyepieces, and was quite suprised they weren't listed. I guess I just needed to look harder. Thanks for the link.

Ken


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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5060108 - 02/07/12 11:08 AM

So if these specs are correct then the 25mm is how it appears to be (i.e. shorter and wider than the 20mm).

I don't think anyone expects them to be identical in design. The ES and the Ethos aren't "scaled" designs since they maintain the same AFOV and similar eye relief. Most likely they are similar in design and glass types especially two eyepieces in the same line and close to the same focal length like the 6mm and 8mm Ethos.

But that's about as far as I'd speculate sight unseen.


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Mauro Da Lio
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5060810 - 02/07/12 05:57 PM

Quote:

I have yet to have any of them fog up for not being purged or sealed with o-rings.




Mine fogs. I observe where dew often forms on EVERY surface, including the outer surface of the eyepieces... and guess what happened. Dew got in via capillarity and once inside it is very difficult to get it out, and your eyepiece is transparent at home but not on the observing site, unless you constantly keep it warm which I am now forced to do. After one year I still need constant dew-not strips on.


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Starman1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Mauro Da Lio]
      #5061491 - 02/08/12 01:56 AM

Well, I find it interesting that there will soon be 100 degree eyepieces available in
25/21/20/17/16/14/13/12.5/10/9(2)/8/6/5.5/4.7/and 3.7mm focal lengths.
Must be all those people looking for planetary eyepieces.


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Phillip Creed
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5061622 - 02/08/12 06:37 AM

Will the 25mm ES-100 include scorch marks from the howitzer that launches it? "Delivery by artillery" seems fitting for such an eyepiece.

Clear Skies,
Phil


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5061644 - 02/08/12 07:08 AM

Quote:

Well, I find it interesting that there will soon be 100 degree eyepieces available in
25/21/20/17/16/14/13/12.5/10/9(2)/8/6/5.5/4.7/and 3.7mm focal lengths.
Must be all those people looking for planetary eyepieces.




What is the 16? A new ES? Only knew about 5.5/100, 9/120 and 25/100.


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bherv
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5061682 - 02/08/12 07:58 AM

The 16 is the TMB 100 being sold under the Agena and Zhumell brand names. Not on par with ES or Ethos though.
Barry


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jrbarnett
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5062061 - 02/08/12 11:59 AM

"It seems pretty well established that their other 100 deg AFOV eyepieces are pretty close to copies/clones of the TV Ethos line, whether people want to believe it or not(or care)."

Isn't that just an assumption? I only know of one evaluation that supplied X-rays of the internals of the 13mm Ethos and 14mm ES 100. Do we know for sure that all Ethoses and all ES 100s have the same internal layouts?

I'd love to see X-rays of other Ethoses and ES 100s. If you know of any, please point me to them.

Regards,

Jim


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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5062188 - 02/08/12 01:12 PM

Explore Scientific will be showing both their 25mm 100 degree and 9mm 120 degree eyepieces at the Winter Star Party. Those who are going might want to take a look and post your first-hand impressions here for the CN family.

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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5062249 - 02/08/12 01:39 PM

The Winter Star Party. I suppose there could be more than one.

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Doug Culbertson
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5062257 - 02/08/12 01:44 PM

Quote:

The Winter Star Party. I suppose there could be more than one.




Could be, but this is THE Winter Star Party!


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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5062269 - 02/08/12 01:51 PM

OK, that one!



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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5079143 - 02/18/12 08:14 PM

Does anyone know if there is a price difference pre-ordering the 25mm 100 AFOV before the end of February sale ends, or waiting till the eyepiece is released with potential reviews.

P.S. Same for 9mm 120 AFOV.


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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5081866 - 02/20/12 12:04 PM

There is no price difference on either one.

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alrosm
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Ernest_SPB]
      #5083010 - 02/21/12 12:24 AM

Quote:

I thought before that only reason for TV do not produce 25 mm Ethos is prevention of internal concurrence with their flagship 31 mm Nagler.

It looks like ES is free from the reason and does not afraid concurrence too much.




It's gonna be interresting to read the reviews with the 31mm Nagler and the 25 mm ES.


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: alrosm]
      #5083543 - 02/21/12 10:52 AM

Quote:

It's gonna be interresting to read the reviews with the 31mm Nagler and the 25 mm ES.




The match of the century will be ES25/100 vs Ethos 21. We have a new candidate to the trone. Some say it can be done, some say it can't. This match will be very important for both companies reputation anda future.
The ES25/100 vs N31 will be nice though.

Edited by pbsastro (02/21/12 02:46 PM)


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5085071 - 02/22/12 07:16 AM

I am surprised we have not seen any reports from Winter Star Party participants who may have had the chance to view through this eyepiece. If anybody has had a chance for a quick view let us know what you thought of the eyepiece.

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astrodon
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5085143 - 02/22/12 08:20 AM

Yeah, and what IS the eye relief?

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FastMike
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: astrodon]
      #5087286 - 02/23/12 01:21 PM

Any news on the size of the size of the field stop? I calculate 43.5mm which would be larger than the 31 Nagler.

I just ordered one so hopefully it will work well in my NP101 (21x with 4.6 degree TFOV).


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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: FastMike]
      #5087346 - 02/23/12 01:58 PM

I think I'll pass. $599.99? I already have the ES 82 deg 30mm, which gives me a 2.1 degree TFOV at 40x. The ES 100 deg 25mm would yield 2.1 degree TFOV at 48x. I already have a couple one-trick-ponies in my stable: the ES 100 deg 14mm and 9mm eyepieces. I don't need this one. Eh...

Mike


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Dick Jacobson
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5094413 - 02/27/12 04:55 PM

On paper, this looks like the nearest thing to a perfect wide-field eyepiece for someone with an f/5 scope and 5mm pupils. I would define a perfect wide eyepiece as one that collects ALL the light from the focuser and funnels ALL of it through the pupil. Using the Field Stop Calculator, I estimate the field stop at 40.8 mm, not too far from the maximum possible of 46 mm in a 2" barrel. The exit pupil in an f/5 scope would be 25/5 = 5mm. So, this eyepiece will funnel just about as much light as possible from the focuser through my 5mm pupil.

Sounds darn near perfection; is there any other eyepiece that can equal it?


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Starman1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5094569 - 02/27/12 06:25 PM

31mm TeleVue Nagler: 42mm field stop, 82 degree field, well corrected, 6.2mm exit pupil (without Paracorr).

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94bamf
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5094847 - 02/27/12 09:03 PM

Any news here from people at the Winter Star Party using either the 9mm 120 deg, 5.5mm 100 deg, or the 25mm 100 deg? Did they have the eyepieces there as indicated earlier in the thread? Don't leave us hanging people!

Ken

Edited by 94bamf (02/27/12 09:04 PM)


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5094938 - 02/27/12 10:17 PM

Sounds good on paper until you insert it into your focuser and the weight makes your scope go for a nose dive!

Been there - done that! I tried adding magnets....then when pulling the EP out, the rear end of the scope starts drifting downwards. If your scope can take the weight, by all means go for it!.....I much prefer an EP that is no heavier then 1.5 Lbs, but hey, that's just me!

Cheers,


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Smithfr2000]
      #5095207 - 02/28/12 03:13 AM

Quote:

I thought 21mm focal length was the maximum physically possible in a 2" barrel ?




I have 2" eyepieces as long as 125mm. There really is no limit if you will accept a narrower and narrower FOV. Other designs mentioned like Panoptics, etc., are a totally different set of parameters. It was long ago calculated that 22mm was the extreme limit of an Ethos-type design due to the needed size of the first group of lenses. To make a longer f.l. Ethos type eyepiece (which includes the ES-100 line as a close copy of the Ethos), you would need to make the field glass larger than you can fit into a 2-inch barrel. Someone keeps saying to just move this glass up into the body of the eyepiece, but you still have to look out through a 2-inch sleeve! You are dealing with converging rays, and this will not work unlessyou can accept vignetting of light rays in the peripheral field. A 2" opening is still a 2-inch opening and you can put a 3-inch lens behind it--- it will still be stopped down. According to my best estimates, in order to make a 25mm Ethos-type eyepiece with a 100-degree field, the first group of lenses would need to be 45.5mm dia. and you cannot put that into (or behind) a 2-inch barrel without vignetting, or by really cutting things very thin with minimal support, retainer and wall thickness. If all else remains equal (ie.: normal construction), that would mean a cutoff of 18% of the entrance aperture on the light rays at the periphery of the 25mm's field. Now TV said they cannot do this without sacrificing aberrational control and vignetting and I wholeheartedly agree with them. So, to make a 25mm 100-degree eyepiece, you will have to accept increased aberrations in the periphery, a certain degree of vignetting (light cut off/ field darkening), easily tested by racking out of focus on stars, or change the design somehow--- at the very least, make some extreme changes to the construction in a minimal kind of way. Since I personally don't believe in magic fairies (you just don't snap your fingers and say Voila! and invent a new, better design that changes the rules of optics), I will be very glad to let others buy this eyepiece then wait for the test results to come in from knowledgeable users. Now, I understand the interest and enthusiasm for a HWF eyepiece that matches the true field of a 31NT5 or a 41 Pan, all I am saying is that you don't GET something without giving something up, and something will have to be compromised to do this, and by pushing the overall design right to or past the practical edge. Look at the field lens of your 17mm Ethos and your 21mm Ethos and you will see that no larger lens can be supported; therefore one can only make some sort of tradeoff to get the increase in f.l. and TFOV while keeping AFOV the same, all within the same confines of a2-inch barrel. I cannot make it any clearer than that! ;^) There are no magic short cuts in optics, sorry. The only question now is how happy or unhappy will customers be once they see and understand whatever or wherever the tradeoff will be in order to get the longer 25mm f.l., in the eyepiece, we shall see; my guess is that there will be camps on both sides of the issue. I expect the eyepiece will be about $450, maybe over $500 after the price increases catch up to ES pricing structure. At this price point it will be interesting to see how far from Ethos quality one can diverge and customers can still remain happy just to get 4 more millimeters focal length? We shall see. Very soon, no more speculation will be necessary. ;^)

Regards,

Wayne


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APM M.Ludes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5095283 - 02/28/12 08:01 AM

we have tested the ES 25 mm 100 and the 9 mm 120 in a C14 and a Tele Vue 140 Apo. Al Nagler also have had the chance to test them at WSP.
But as vendor, even one, who selling authorized ES products, I am not permited to comment such products, so all I can say is offline only, drop me a PM or email if you like


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FastMike
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5095291 - 02/28/12 08:12 AM

Quote:

If all else remains equal (ie.: normal construction), that would mean a cutoff of 18% of the entrance aperture on the light rays at the periphery of the 25mm's field




That doesn't sound so bad, most newts are acceptable at 20%.

So would the edge vignetting of the 25mm even be seen in most newts?

The Paracorr 2 cuts off the edge illumination more then 18% in fast newts, so this may be a non issue to them.

Quote:

I expect the eyepiece will be about $450, maybe over $500 after the price increases catch up to ES pricing structure.




I agree that the price will probably drop after the introduction. The early adopters (me) should be prepared to take a loss on the eyepiece.

Quote:

At this price point it will be interesting to see how far from Ethos quality one can diverge and customers can still remain happy just to get 4 more millimeters focal length?




The 25mm produces an exit pupil that is too large for my 28" but it should work well in my other scopes. If the 25mm is the same as the other ES100's then I would not expect it to equal the Ethos eyepieces but it still should be very good eyepiece. But your question is a good one to ask, the market will eventually give the answer.


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94bamf
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5095320 - 02/28/12 08:43 AM

Hey Wayne, any guesses on the optical arrangement of the ES 25mm, considering how much shorter it is compared to the other 100 degree eyepieces?

Ken


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Dick Jacobson
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5095341 - 02/28/12 08:59 AM

Quote:

Sounds good on paper until you insert it into your focuser and the weight makes your scope go for a nose dive!



I solved the balance problem with a sliding counterweight. I made a "clothesline" counterweight using a length of nylon cord and a pair of pulleys. Also added a couple of cord locks to the nylon loop to add friction so the weight wouldn't drop. This worked okay, took just a second or two to adjust, but was a little inconvenient since the cord tended to stretch and had to be re-tightened every hour or two.

I think a counterweight on a steel rod would work better. You could build a thumb-operated clamp to hold the weight in place.

I'm experimenting with a better solution. I built a rotating secondary cage with multiple focusers so I can have all my eyepieces at my fingertips. This solves the balance problem once and for all.


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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5095394 - 02/28/12 09:39 AM

Markus,

Quote:

Sounds good on paper until you insert it into your focuser and the weight makes your scope go for a nose dive!

Been there - done that! I tried adding magnets....then when pulling the EP out, the rear end of the scope starts drifting downwards. If your scope can take the weight, by all means go for it!.....I much prefer an EP that is no heavier then 1.5 Lbs, but hey, that's just me!




You can always balance your telescope for your heaviest eyepiece. Do this for longitudinal and transverse balance. Then when you insert a much lighter eyepiece, place a magnetic weight for compensation near the focuser on the OTA. I keep a small bag of weights hanging on the Dob base near the eyepiece rack for just this purpose.

I must admit, though, that I haven't kept up with my eyepiece purchases. My 10" Dob is prebalanced for my ES 100deg 14mm. Now I have an ES 82deg 30mm, which is heavier. So if I put the 30mm in the focuser, I need to place a weight toward the lower end of the OTA to compensate.

Mike


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DanaJ
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Reged: 12/11/11

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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5095995 - 02/28/12 03:21 PM

Ugh. I don't think the optics for this requires magic fairies or new discoveries in physics. I get your point that IF it just extends the unmodified Ethos design then you run into problems. But IF isn't MUST. I also see the point that Nagler et al. are pretty extraordinary in eyepiece design, and it's surprising that JOC is innovating in this area. It isn't impossible.

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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: DanaJ]
      #5096181 - 02/28/12 05:23 PM

Quote:

You can always balance your telescope for your heaviest eyepiece. Do this for longitudinal and transverse balance. Then when you insert a much lighter eyepiece, place a magnetic weight for compensation near the focuser on the OTA. I keep a small bag of weights hanging on the Dob base near the eyepiece rack for just this purpose.

I must admit, though, that I haven't kept up with my eyepiece purchases. My 10" Dob is prebalanced for my ES 100deg 14mm. Now I have an ES 82deg 30mm, which is heavier. So if I put the 30mm in the focuser, I need to place a weight toward the lower end of the OTA to compensate.

Mike




Nah, I'll pass on that idea altogether. Not into heavy eyepieces and more problems with weights , etc. I have it set up perfectly right now for no more then 1.5 to maybe almost 2 pounds. I can't be bothered to mess with weights any more. Why mess with something that is already set?

I'm good to go now.

Cheers,


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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5096288 - 02/28/12 06:19 PM

I'm not into heavy eyepieces, either, but that's what these modern lowpower hyperwidefield oculars are! Besides, you get a little weight training during your observing session.


Mike


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5096362 - 02/28/12 06:57 PM Attachment (23 downloads)

One thing I forgot to mention, was a heavy chain weight. I should have actually tried one BEFORE selling off my 20mm Nagler Type 2 which to me, was a very heavy EP.

What a chain weight does is hang off the mirror end of your reflector. When you tip it low, the weight of the chain gets heavier, because there is naturally MORE chain there. When you tip your scope up higher, there is LESS chain there, and obviously LESS weight from the chain. I think this is a brilliant idea!

Cheers,


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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5096364 - 02/28/12 06:58 PM

The field lens in the 30mm Widescan II I once owned was 46mm in diameter. With a barrel that's 2mm thick, you can go to 46.8mm.

Clears,
Shneor


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5096373 - 02/28/12 07:02 PM

Quote:

Someone keeps saying to just move this glass up into the body of the eyepiece, but you still have to look out through a 2-inch sleeve! You are dealing with converging rays, and this will not work unless you can accept vignetting of light rays in the peripheral field. A 2" opening is still a 2-inch opening and you can put a 3-inch lens behind it--- it will still be stopped down. According to my best estimates, in order to make a 25mm Ethos-type eyepiece with a 100-degree field, the first group of lenses would need to be 45.5mm dia. and you cannot put that into (or behind) a 2-inch barrel without vignetting, or by really cutting things very thin with minimal support, retainer and wall thickness. If all else remains equal (ie.: normal construction), that would mean a cutoff of 18% of the entrance aperture on the light rays at the periphery of the 25mm's field. Now TV said they cannot do this without sacrificing aberrational control and vignetting and I wholeheartedly agree with them.




That someone is me. As someone else said recently you talk a lot about calculations but you show you don't understand it and you repeat what you read out of the context. So I will not try to discuss calculations with you.
I will try faith. Your faith in Televue. TV sells a 41 Panoptic and a 55 Plossl, both with 46mm field stop and with all the lenses outside the 2" barrel. So, either TV is trying to fool everyone with a highly compromised eyepiece, or they use magic fairies inside the Pan41, or you do not understand what you are saying. One of the three. Do you think I should contact a lawyer to process TV for trying to fool people? You see I don't believe in fairies...

Pedro


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csa/montana
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5096377 - 02/28/12 07:05 PM

Now that is a very cool idea; simple, low cost, and effective!

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Starman1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5096410 - 02/28/12 07:31 PM

Since no one seems to have mentioned it, and people keep speculating, Explore Scientific says $599.99 for the 25mm 100 degree eyepice and available in April.

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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: APM M.Ludes]
      #5096441 - 02/28/12 07:56 PM

Quote:

we have tested the ES 25 mm 100 and the 9 mm 120 in a C14 and a Tele Vue 140 Apo. Al Nagler also have had the chance to test them at WSP.
But as vendor, even one, who selling authorized ES products, I am not permited to comment such products, so all I can say is offline only, drop me a PM or email if you like




Well, Markus, I would imagine that if it were GOOD comments you had to say from your experience at WSP, there could be no objections to saying them! ;^) But then, sometimes, good or bad, you get criticized no matter WHAT you say, either way, you get accused of bias.

Wayne


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: 94bamf]
      #5096460 - 02/28/12 08:10 PM

Quote:

Hey Wayne, any guesses on the optical arrangement of the ES 25mm, considering how much shorter it is compared to the other 100 degree eyepieces?

Ken




That's the $25,000 question Ken. Obviously something is going on in there, and light is being bent in all kinds of unusual ways. There are no magic new glasses out there and the more you bend and handle light, the more it is affected. Smaller package means more bending in tighter spaces. If it were done aspherically using the most exotic glasses at a high increase in engineering cost, it would make sense to me and seem plausible. But all-spherical using same quality glass and cost, it makes me scratch my head and really wonder. Something gives, there ARE NO SHORT CUTS IN OPTICS--- I think the question is how many corners can be cut before the fat lady really sings.

People listen to IPods and MP-3's with huge compression and reduction in data flow and think they are hearing good sound compared to analog--- the question is how far can you go to fool the eye or how much can you tolerate a loss before it becomes noticeable/objectionable? I guess we will find out. Either that or ES has found optical designer who do cheaply what Al Nagler and Paul Dellaschaise cannot do and make them look like rookies who just got off the truck! I will leave reader to choose which seems most plausible to them.


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5096474 - 02/28/12 08:21 PM

Quote:

With a barrel that's 2mm thick, you can go to 46.8mm.




Agreed. But 2mm is a bit thin by TV standards. Remember, you still need to cut threads into that. So you are back to minimal construction. You will end up with a very thin wall and probably not cut the threads full depth either. Maybe OK for a widescan but is not in keeping with a premium quality eyepiece. This all assumes a 5/1000ths inch undercut for clearance in the focuser.


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5096540 - 02/28/12 08:56 PM

Quote:

Since no one seems to have mentioned it, and people keep speculating, Explore Scientific says $599.99 for the 25mm 100 degree eyepice and available in April.




Thanks!


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tmbuser6
sage
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: pbsastro]
      #5096541 - 02/28/12 08:56 PM

Quote:

Your faith in Televue. TV sells a 41 Panoptic and a 55 Plossl, both with 46mm field stop and with all the lenses outside the 2" barrel. So, either TV is trying to fool everyone with a highly compromised eyepiece, or they use magic fairies inside the Pan41.




Pedro, you can think what you want. I do not speak from "faith in TeleVue" I measured the field lens in the 21mm Ethos. It is 38.6mm by my best measurement using a digital caliper. If you look at it, you will see it is not practical to go larger in the design. I measured all the Ethos and plotted them and found a linear relationship then projected that up to the f.l. of a 25mm Ethos. You speak of the size of the field lens in other designs and where they are placed, but these designs have different requirements and different locations for the focal plane. You are just being silly with your remarks of a "highly compromised design," so there is no point in debating you. You can obviously build a better eyepiece than an Ethos, you really need to get busy then and start your own eyepiece business! Maybe you can even get a job working for Explore perhaps. Or, why not just wait for the test results and see how these eyepieces actually work in the field, or write Markus and ask him. They will either be similar to how I expect, or they will have to be a pretty wide departure from previous design. If they work very well, it will be a big feather in their cap! Maybe they will show that MUCH better eyepieces can be made and TV has just been holding back. But Televue has told you that they cannot make an Ethos longer than 21mm without compromise and the reality is that this agrees perfectly with a bench and computer analysis done on a dissected Ethos long ago by people who know way more about optics than everyone here put together. I know, I read the report. If you truly know better as you say, then please do give us the ray-trace analysis and end all the speculation and jibber-jabber!

But right or wrong, we are only talking about an eyepiece. It is a tool, a means to an end. The real point in all of this is in the enjoyment of the sheer beauty of the sky and in contemplating one's place in the universe, not to waste it with arguing with someone who seems to like to trade unnecessary, disparaging words as you seem to like to do.


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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5096566 - 02/28/12 09:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Sounds good on paper until you insert it into your focuser and the weight makes your scope go for a nose dive!



I solved the balance problem with a sliding counterweight. I made a "clothesline" counterweight using a length of nylon cord and a pair of pulleys. Also added a couple of cord locks to the nylon loop to add friction so the weight wouldn't drop. This worked okay, took just a second or two to adjust, but was a little inconvenient since the cord tended to stretch and had to be re-tightened every hour or two.

I think a counterweight on a steel rod would work better. You could build a thumb-operated clamp to hold the weight in place.

I'm experimenting with a better solution. I built a rotating secondary cage with multiple focusers so I can have all my eyepieces at my fingertips. This solves the balance problem once and for all.




My Discovery Split Tube is able to slide the round pivot bearings up and down, but with my eypieces, telrad, and focuser I am already at the max up limit. Binoviewers also push the limit. My solution (vs. adding weight) was increase the friction by covering some of the teflon with tape, etc. Otherwise it would slip/creep nose down; like when my friend fixed the teflon and made it feather touch. Sometimes friction is good (move only when desired).


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5096593 - 02/28/12 09:23 PM

Someone from WSP, please write what you see. Was it tried on anything as FAST as f4.1 WITH or withou paracor II? Interested in hearing feedback!

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csa/montana
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5097587 - 02/29/12 12:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

we have tested the ES 25 mm 100 and the 9 mm 120 in a C14 and a Tele Vue 140 Apo. Al Nagler also have had the chance to test them at WSP.
But as vendor, even one, who selling authorized ES products, I am not permited to comment such products, so all I can say is offline only, drop me a PM or email if you like




Well, Markus, I would imagine that if it were GOOD comments you had to say from your experience at WSP, there could be no objections to saying them! ;^) But then, sometimes, good or bad, you get criticized no matter WHAT you say, either way, you get accused of bias.

Wayne




Imagine what you wish; Markus is simply abiding by the restrictions placed on Vendors in the regular forums. So good or bad does not figure in his lack of response here!


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5097609 - 02/29/12 01:11 PM

Quote:

Imagine what you wish; Markus is simply abiding by the restrictions placed on Vendors in the regular forums. So good or bad does not figure in his lack of response here!




OK. Thanks. I did not know that. Usually, and historically, Markus et. al. gets slammed for criticizing products, not for applauding them. But here it is desired that vendors make NO qualitative statements. Accepted, if unfortunate--- Markus is one person here that I can usually gauge quite a bit from his assessments and observations.

Regards,

Wayne


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csa/montana
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5097619 - 02/29/12 01:16 PM






But here it is desired that vendors make NO qualitative statements. Accepted, if unfortunate---






That also is not true. I'm not here to discuss the Vendor rules, simply to let you know that your assumption was wrong.


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: csa/montana]
      #5097809 - 02/29/12 02:42 PM

Just remember, even if a person were to make comments on the eyepieces they saw at WSP they were still looking at the prototype for those eyepieces. It is very likely that there will be some small changes between the prototype and the final release eyepieces.

Either way I think we live in a very exciting time to be an amateur astronomer. Equipment quality and performance is changing very quickly with new and innovative designs coming from multiple companies. It is a very safe bet that there has never been as good a selection of equipment for the amateur as there is now. We also live in a time when decent skies are still available, with some travel, to most observers. Unfortunately, they are not as good as they used to be but the equipment available is so much better than what was available that I think it helps to make up for some increased LP. I still urge you all to do anything you can to help people to fully understand the benefits of better lighting.

Edited by Darenwh (02/29/12 02:47 PM)


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Levine
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5138031 - 03/23/12 11:27 PM

Soooo...

Updates, anyone...?



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stevenp_86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5138107 - 03/24/12 12:16 AM

i was wondering the same thing today lol, definitely keeping a very close eye on this EP, no pun intended

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Grafff
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5188078 - 04/24/12 01:16 PM

Any news?...

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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Grafff]
      #5188089 - 04/24/12 01:23 PM

NEAF should give some indication. Im still waiting on my 9 120, from last summer / fall order....

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hoes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5188820 - 04/24/12 08:50 PM

I spoke to someone at explore scientific yesterday - he indicated that they would have a 25mm ES 100 prototype at NEAF -and that it was undergoing a few tweeks before going into production

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aa6ww
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5189198 - 04/25/12 02:12 AM

Too many times the Math gets in the way of reality. Ive seen this more in astronomy than in any other area. Especially with regard to Field of view and Exit pupil. Regardless of the math, the ES-25 will be a success. Ethos buyers will find reasons to hate it, but it wont mater. Its going to be another great eyepiece from ES. Bravo!!

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MitchAlsup
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: aa6ww]
      #5190079 - 04/25/12 03:21 PM

Quote:

Regardless of the math, the ES-25 will be a success. Ethos buyers will find reasons to hate it,




This Ehtos lover will buy one of these 25mm ES 100s.
With no hate whatsoever.


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: aa6ww]
      #5197472 - 04/29/12 11:32 PM

"Too many times the Math gets in the way of reality. Ive seen this more in astronomy than in any other area."

Yes, that pesky math sure gets in the way of astronomy all the time!

ITMT: I was hoping to hear something on the 25 and 9; they were supposed to be shipped this month. Apparently they were not ready for sale. I was loaned an ES-100 which I've been putting up against an Ethos head-to-head; as soon as I can get one more night out under the stars with both with scope #3, I will report on what the actual differences are.

You will be surprised. I know I have been!

Wayne

Edited by ausastronomer (07/05/12 09:36 PM)


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whirlpoolm51
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5197543 - 04/30/12 12:38 AM

anyone hear anything about the 5.5mm es 100 too??? thats what i have my eyes set on!!!

Ahhh my pockets never catch a break!!!


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whirlpoolm51
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5197548 - 04/30/12 12:44 AM

Wayne i love your posts!! i take notes everytime i read somthing you write. You sure do know your stuff and i am willing to follow your advice anyday!!!

Thanks for teaching me so much without even knowing you were doing it hahahaha


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Jobryant
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5197682 - 04/30/12 02:59 AM

So was there one of these on display at this so called NEAF event everyones been talkin about lately?

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starcam
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jobryant]
      #5197772 - 04/30/12 07:24 AM

There was a 25mm in the Explore Scientific trailer out front that I saw. Billp had a closer look at it. He may talk about it more. He was looking at it so intently he never picked up a free hat.

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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5197887 - 04/30/12 09:10 AM

Quote:

"Too many times the Math gets in the way of reality. Ive seen this more in astronomy than in any other area."

Yes, that pesky math sure gets in the way of astronomy all the time! Let me guess, calc and physics weren't your majors in college.

ITMT: I was hoping to hear something on the 25 and 9; they were supposed to be shipped this month. Apparently they were not ready for sale. I was loaned an ES-100 which I've been putting up against an Ethos head-to-head; as soon as I can get one more night out under the stars with both with scope #3, I will report on what the actual differences are.

You will be surprised. I know I have been!

Wayne





Wayne, I have to ask:

How can we expect an unbiased review when you have publicly stated you don't like ES as a company or what they stand for and have negatively commented in the past on just about every ES product discussed on these forums?



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dyslexic nam
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5198110 - 04/30/12 11:50 AM

Quote:


Wayne, I have to ask:

How can we expect an unbiased review when you have publicly stated you don't like ES as a company or what they stand for and have negatively commented in the past on just about every ES product discussed on these forums?






That is why I gave up posting in this thread a few pages ago.

'Objective' optical analysis and an admitted strong negative bias make strange bedfellows.


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Sean Puett
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: dyslexic nam]
      #5198421 - 04/30/12 02:50 PM

I love how products get reviewed before anyone uses them. What was said about larger than 21mm ethos was that it couldn't be done staying true to the ethos design. Maybe ES has done something different and no one will know until it gets into people's hands how well it works. The prototype is the most expensive one. I doubt they would even announce a 25mm if the prototype wasn't at least typical ES quality. It is silly to have so many negative comments before using the eyepiece. This reminds me of a tec 140 thread.

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hfjacinto
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5198528 - 04/30/12 03:54 PM

Quote:

I love how products get reviewed before anyone uses them.




I can honestly say that the 25MM ES 100 Degree eyepiece works much better than the 25MM Ethos. Without a doubt no comparison, the ES blows the 25MM Ethos out of the water.


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russell23
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5198565 - 04/30/12 04:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I love how products get reviewed before anyone uses them.




I can honestly say that the 25MM ES 100 Degree eyepiece works much better than the 25MM Ethos. Without a doubt no comparison, the ES blows the 25MM Ethos out of the water.




Yeah - but the TV 3" 30mm 140 deg Beastos just blows away the 25mm ES 100.

Dave


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whirlpoolm51
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: russell23]
      #5198630 - 04/30/12 04:49 PM

i heard televue is now making a lline of golf clubs????? any word on that eheheheheheh

but to be fully serious we should be extremely happy to have companys like televue and ES becasue in my opinion they are and will always be the top wide field designers around!!!! and i sure as heck cant wait to buy the 5.5mm es 100 degree!!! wahoooooooooooo


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russell23
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5198644 - 04/30/12 04:58 PM

Quote:

i heard televue is now making a lline of golf clubs????? any word on that eheheheheheh

but to be fully serious we should be extremely happy to have companys like televue and ES becasue in my opinion they are and will always be the top wide field designers around!!!! and i sure as heck cant wait to buy the 5.5mm es 100 degree!!! wahoooooooooooo




I'm interested in the 5.5mm ES 100. Anybody have a picture of it? I check astronomics every couple days and yet no picture has appeared so I'm assuming ES hasn't put a picture out yet. I'm especially hoping the eyelense is not recessed as it seems to be in most of their other eyepieces. I noticed the 25mm pictured does not have the recessed eyelense.

Dave


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5198927 - 04/30/12 07:36 PM

"How can we expect an unbiased review when you have publicly stated you don't like ES as a company or what they stand for and have negatively commented in the past on just about every ES product discussed on these forums?"

Sooo, Von, you think being forthright and honest is a disqualifier for a reviewer? Do you believe that the professional publications are purely objective, never influenced by business relationships and advertising? Or if they come to a negative conclusion they are wrong? Ever think that my previous comments were mere spice to pique the interest of the reader? No one will force you to read what I say and if you are THAT SURE that my report will be that predictable then by all means don't waste your time reading it. So what if I don't care for the /business model/ the company chooses, I am not reviewing the business but the /optic/ that they make and that alone. It is optic against optic. Maybe just because of all of these things I am willing to go to all of the trouble of putting one of their eyepieces to the test to see for myself what the thing can REALLY do. What will you say if despite everything else I still come out with a POSITIVE report? You just might find my conclusions some of the best and most surprising you have read on these eyepieces. Or perhaps I should just not write it at all, after all, it is a LOT of work and a HUGE imposition on my valuable and limited time for which I am not getting paid one penny! I could write the review now, but I want to spend another evening using them with a third, different scope; so if you can wait until AFTER you read the report to judge it rather than before, then you might just be possibly surprised.

Besides, aren't you the least interested in hearing what someone who holds $25,000 in eyepieces might see between an Explore-100 and an Ethos? After all, my only relationship to these eyepieces is in their possible USE to me! ;^)

Regards,

Wayne


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Vondragonnoggin
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: tmbuser6]
      #5198996 - 04/30/12 08:19 PM

If you have actually used one and come to like it then I'll be more pleased than any review can give me.

So yes, that's great if you like it and I'm sure lots of people will read it. You'll have to excuse my lack of optimism - you have many posts that are negative about ES products.

Not something I understand myself - brand loyalty or judging brand products before using them. In my own experience, having an open mind to products has greatly enriched my experience. That includes just about any manufacturer whether they produce in China, US, Japan, Russia, Germany, or wherever.

I'm sure many will enjoy your review. I will shy away from any review that s from a person who has previously shown unnecessary bias against a company before trying the products. I'm not singleing you out specifically here, but it fit for this thread.


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hoes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5199086 - 04/30/12 09:05 PM

I was wondering if anyone who went to NEAF learned anything about the status of either the 25mm or 5.5mm?

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hfjacinto
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hoes]
      #5199250 - 04/30/12 10:54 PM

Wayne,

My take is that if you have $25k in eyepieces you arent like most of the posters on the forum. You are more a collector than an actual observer. Or you cant make up your mind. Just because you spent a lot doesnt mean that your opinion is more valuable than some one who spends less, it just means you spent a lot of money.

When some one posts a thorough review I will read but I won't form an opinion till I actually use one. There are fan boys and bashers and both are mostly wrong. From my expetience ES makes a very good to excellent product and I would expect the same from a 25 mm ES eyepiece.


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5199394 - 05/01/12 12:11 AM

Has there been any mention of how the eyepiece performs?

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hoes
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5199849 - 05/01/12 10:36 AM

Quote:

Has there been any mention of how the eyepiece performs?




I don't think so - I'm new here so maybe I don't know how this is supposed to work, but maybe a new thread should be started - this one seems to have devolved into something else

Does anyone who saw the prototype at NEAF have any comments?

Thanks!

Steve


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bassplayer142
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hoes]
      #5199935 - 05/01/12 11:28 AM

Agreed. I'm inclined to start a televue vs. Explore scientific thread so that people can go nuts in it without it spilling into every other thread like it always seems to do... Everyone has their own opinions and that's fine. It just seems that so many threads go off the original topic.

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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hoes]
      #5200106 - 05/01/12 12:53 PM

Quote:

I was wondering if anyone who went to NEAF learned anything about the status of either the 25mm or 5.5mm?



Thanks to CN, people abroad like me can learn a few things from NEAF.
I saw the CN webcast where the ES guy said it will take 60-90 days more for the ES 25/100.
He said the eyepiece has been with beta-testers, and that their feedback is being used to optimize the eyepiece. I think this applied also to the 120 deg eyepiece.


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bassplayer142]
      #5200107 - 05/01/12 12:54 PM

I saw the 25 explore at NEAF along side the 9MM Explore 120 degree. The 25 was surprisingly much lighter than the 9mm, and was about the same or smaller diameter.... While there was no scope to view through, I suspect that this EP will be more along the lines of the 100 degree EPs Orion and other sell rather than being a derivitive of a popular and well known name brand 100 degree eyepiece.

I asked when on the 25mm and was told a couple of Months. I have had a 9mm on order since its announcement. Seeing it and feeling the heft gave me confidence to stay on the 9mm wait list (supposedly the 9mms are in a container bobbing around the pacific). The 25mm I will wait on user reviews before jumping in.


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pbsastro
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hoes]
      #5200123 - 05/01/12 01:05 PM

Quote:

I'm new here so maybe I don't know how this is supposed to work, but maybe a new thread should be started - this one seems to have devolved into something else




It evolved to a big value thread, specifically a $25K thread...


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Vondragonnoggin]
      #5200438 - 05/01/12 04:12 PM

"So yes, that's great if you like it and I'm sure lots of people will read it. You'll have to excuse my lack of optimism - you have many posts that are negative about ES products."

I guess you wouldn't know that I have also been one of TeleVue's strongest critics as well. You see, I've only posted here for a few months--- I've been in the hobby since the mid-sixties. I still have hand-written letters from Mr. Nagler written when TV first went into business, where he and I went back and forth on many aspects of the first Plossls and Naglers. In one letter he noted that I had seen a defect in his plossl that no one else had commented on. He also called me his toughest customer. The TV Yahoo Group banned me for criticizing the T4 Instadjust and telling people they were better off removing it. I have been less than thrilled for many of the TV eyepieces and many other lines as well. Maybe just not here in the past 9 months. To say I'm biased just because you have only heard me question some aspects of the ES line is not to know the whole story. I can't think of ANY company who I have not found some things to be less than thrilled about. Isn't that truly the role of the reviewer? To be noticing of even tiny defects? Or to be overlooking and accommodating, even sanguine in their approach. The truth is that I am just very hard to please. Something has to REALLY be good for me to be satisfied with it. Anyone who has closely followed me would see that as being apparent. You see, the problem with places like this is that people read a very few comments by someone over a few short time span without knowing the context of their history and background and think they know the person. That is not good science. I guess just like Dan Mounsey is now apologizing thinking he cost TV business by reporting what he saw because apparently some people took the word of ONE PERSON and acted like it was a law written in stone. I am by profession highly critical and observant and put all telescope parts under the heat lamp of scrutiny. When I write a report on the ES-100 14mm vs, the 13 Ethos, they will BOTH be equally put in the frying pan of critical scrutiny through close and careful comparison. It wouldn't be worth my bother to do any less. My goal will be to cut through all the rumor and hype that I've read to get down to the meat of what the true and real differences between these two actually are, and to a degree of close examination that I have simply not read anywhere else.

Wayne


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tmbuser6
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5200451 - 05/01/12 04:22 PM

"Wayne, My take is that <snip> you arent like most of the posters on the forum. You are more a collector than an actual observer."

Wrong. None of my eyepieces sit in pretty boxes. They are ALL used. They work for their keep. I have 80-90 eyepieces from 3mm to 125mm and have a use for all of them. Not an observer? You are WAY off! I live to observe. I don't own one piece of telescope gear that I bought merely to "collect."


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5200475 - 05/01/12 04:36 PM

Quote:

I saw the 25 explore at NEAF along side the 9MM Explore 120 degree. The 25 was surprisingly much lighter than the 9mm, and was about the same or smaller diameter.... While there was no scope to view through, I suspect that this EP will be more along the lines of the 100 degree EPs Orion and other sell rather than being a derivitive of a popular and well known name brand 100 degree eyepiece.




Actually, based on what some very knowledgeable users from the Winter Star Party were saying the 25mm had great correction to very close to the edge. It suffered from light throughput but as it was a prototype it likely did not have the best coatings. It also suffered from an unblackened retaining ring but that likely will be fixed as well in production models. From what I understand this is likely to be a very exciting product release. They should take their time and get all the bugs worked out so I am not bothered by the delay at all. I am looking forward to this eyepiece. I think it and the 9mm 120 will truly show what ES is about. If they can pull these two off using designs that are not TV designs it will show that they truly are an innovative company. I suspect these two eyepieces will be successful designs. The 25mm is supposed to be a completely new design. If they scale the 25mm down as new version of their other 100 degree (ES100V2 20mm, 14mm, 9mm, etc...) eyepieces then there will be no doubt that they made a 100 degree eyepiece series that is lighter than TV's, and, if reports are accurate, with correction on par with TV's.


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5202748 - 05/02/12 08:59 PM

Daren,

I sincerely hope you are right, I want you to be right.... I am eagerly awaiting my 9 and will post when and if recieved. This is redefining the "slow boat from China"....

Mark


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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5202796 - 05/02/12 10:00 PM

Not really. ES makes some great products but they seem to always be slow in arriving. They may be a little slow to arrive but they usually impress when they get here. I hope I'm right also as the added competition seems to be forcing the more established companies to continue to up the bar. That can only bring better equipment within reach of all of us.

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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5291403 - 06/27/12 11:18 AM

Any updates?

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Arp319
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5291427 - 06/27/12 11:33 AM

In light of the 5.5mm news, I'm curious too...

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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Arp319]
      #5294654 - 06/29/12 10:52 AM

Called explore today on the 9mm 120, will post if I hear anything....

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russell23
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Arp319]
      #5294755 - 06/29/12 11:58 AM

Quote:

In light of the 5.5mm news, I'm curious too...




When I was told there would not be a 5.5mm ES100 he indicated that the 25mm would be coming out. Just don't know when.

I'm really disappointed that the 5.5mm ES100 is not going to happen. It actually doesn't make sense to cut the line off at 9mm. A 5.5mm would have been a perfect FL to fill out their line.

Dave


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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: russell23]
      #5295316 - 06/29/12 06:47 PM

Interesting, although untrue, rumor about the 5.5mm 100 degree Explore Scientific not being produced. According to Scott Roberts of ES, "It is being produced . . . The factory just sent over the production sample for me to test. I just like to field test before we start shipping."

Don't believe everything you hear. The 5.5mm 100 degree Explore Scientific is coming. It has not been cancelled.


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russell23
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5295500 - 06/29/12 09:03 PM

Quote:

Interesting, although untrue, rumor about the 5.5mm 100 degree Explore Scientific not being produced. According to Scott Roberts of ES, "It is being produced . . . The factory just sent over the production sample for me to test. I just like to field test before we start shipping."

Don't believe everything you hear. The 5.5mm 100 degree Explore Scientific is coming. It has not been cancelled.




Well then Explore Scientific's staff is not all in the know. I received an e-mail from Marty at ES in response to a query about the 5.5mm 100 I sent through their website. He said this:

"I will find out if we are going to be selling these. However, at this time it is my understanding that we are not going to be selling these. We are waiting for the 100 degree 25mm to be coming soon, but no plans on a 5.5mm. "

And when I pointed out that Astronomics has the 5.5mm listed on their website he replied:

"I see that now. Thank you for pointing that out. We will have to get in touch with Astronomics for sure."

I'm glad he was mistaken. But that is the information I received from my contact with ES.

Dave


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: russell23]
      #5296324 - 06/30/12 12:52 PM

Explore is really really poor on communications and schedules. Its been near impossible getting any info on the 9mm 120, and that was ""announced"" comming up on a year ago.... I have had one on pre-order for a long time. I would like to know if its a real product or not, if not I will commmit the cash elsewhere, but I would love for it to be a product. So I wouldnt hold your breath on any new explore products..... Left a voicemail Friday at Explore....

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Jobryant
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5296885 - 06/30/12 08:05 PM

Quote:

Interesting, although untrue, rumor about the 5.5mm 100 degree Explore Scientific not being produced. According to Scott Roberts of ES, "It is being produced . . . The factory just sent over the production sample for me to test. I just like to field test before we start shipping."

Don't believe everything you hear. The 5.5mm 100 degree Explore Scientific is coming. It has not been cancelled.




Did you happen to get a 25mm 100 degree as well? If so do you mind sharing your opinion on it and the 5.5 so far?


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jobryant]
      #5297733 - 07/01/12 11:32 AM

I have only seen the pre-production NEAF sample, it was physically too light for my tastes..... (It didnt have that much glass in it)... whereas the 9 was quite a chunk...

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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5297900 - 07/01/12 01:19 PM

Quote:

I have only seen the pre-production NEAF sample, it was physically too light for my tastes..... (It didnt have that much glass in it)... whereas the 9 was quite a chunk...



Astronomics has the 25mm listed as weighing 2.5 pounds. That seems pretty heavy to me.


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Jobryant
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5298006 - 07/01/12 02:33 PM

Sorry Frebie I misread your post. Scott Roberts is the one that had the sample of the 5.5mm sent to him to test out not you. The thought of a 25mm 100 degree EP has got me all scatter brained! This EP can't get here soon enough I hope it doesn't disappoint.

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Levine
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: stevenp_86]
      #5302837 - 07/04/12 07:46 PM

Called ES yesterday. They now have Reps in China at the factory, evaluating the first production models.

A roll-out may be in the offing as early as two weeks from now.

We shall see...


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MRNUTTY
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5302878 - 07/04/12 08:20 PM

Good! I pre-ordered just to put an end to the suspense; if it comes, it comes

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MitchAlsup
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5346061 - 07/31/12 09:47 PM

Quote:

A roll-out may be in the offing as early as two weeks from now.




Well, its been 3 weeks.......


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Levine
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5346738 - 08/01/12 10:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A roll-out may be in the offing as early as two weeks from now.




Well, its been 3 weeks.......




I know! I called ES yesterday. All they would say was it was definitely on the way...


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5350479 - 08/03/12 04:32 PM

I spoke to scott last week on the 9mm 120, he said the same thing, they shipped.... Talked to Astronomics and they got nuttin as of the other day..... Another Pump fake by Explore....

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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5350611 - 08/03/12 05:55 PM

Maybe they are on a slow boat piloted by Godot.

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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5352779 - 08/05/12 09:31 AM

Well.... I got my explore 9mm 120 shipping notice from Astronomics... Happy dance time.. Lets see how it does...

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Darenwh
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5354396 - 08/06/12 08:35 AM

Now you got me salivating. I hope you get some great sky's to try that eyepiece out with. I know lots of people are bitting at the bit for a first light report...

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russell23
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5354716 - 08/06/12 12:08 PM

Quote:

Well.... I got my explore 9mm 120 shipping notice from Astronomics... Happy dance time.. Lets see how it does...




Astronomics still doesn't list them as in stock. Perhaps the orders they have are in excess of the first shipment. out of my price range anyway, but I'm eager to hear what people think about them. I'm hoping the 5.5mm ES100 comes out soon.

Dave


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MitchAlsup
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5368772 - 08/14/12 05:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A roll-out may be in the offing as early as two weeks from now.




Well, its been 3 weeks.......




Now its 5 weeks.

Although we have 2 reports of users getting the 9mm 120 degree EP.

I really want the 25*100 to show up before October.


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Levine
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5374963 - 08/18/12 05:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

A roll-out may be in the offing as early as two weeks from now.




Well, its been 3 weeks.......





Now its 5 weeks.

Although we have 2 reports of users getting the 9mm 120 degree EP.

I really want the 25*100 to show up before October.





+1!!


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5375998 - 08/19/12 01:57 PM

Keep in mind it was roughly 9 months from announce to delivery of the 9mm.... soooo...... (cue jeopardy music)......

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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5386742 - 08/25/12 05:35 PM



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Levine
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5396617 - 08/31/12 12:25 PM

Spoke to Sheldon Faworski at Explore Scientific today.
This EP will hit the shelves in 60 days. Many are already spoken for, but he tells me there is nothing lost by putting your name in!
This is just the first batch; more to follow.



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MRNUTTY
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5396737 - 08/31/12 01:20 PM

Thanks John, I put in a pre-order a couple of months ago. No sense waiting on the edge of my seat :-)

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jrbarnett
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5396748 - 08/31/12 01:28 PM

The 25mm ES 100 shows "In Stock" here:

http://store.explorescientific.com/25mm100degreeeyepiece.aspx

- Jim


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MRNUTTY
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5396898 - 08/31/12 03:06 PM

I don't think that counts if the main site doesn't agree with it.

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jrbarnett
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5396909 - 08/31/12 03:15 PM

There's one way to find out. Order it off of the ES store. They can't charge your card until it ships. If they charge, it'll mean it's shipping.

- Jim


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MRNUTTY
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5396994 - 08/31/12 04:31 PM

I was hoping you were going to do that.:-)

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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5399484 - 09/02/12 11:43 AM

Has anyone received one yet, or received a due date?

P.S. Don't see anyting about the 5mm 100 AFOV ES anymore. Are they still developing that one or is it dead?


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Danno2006
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5401419 - 09/03/12 04:35 PM

Am I missing anything by saying the 25mm 100 degree ES could very well replace the Nagler 26mm T5 and the 31mm T5, assuming the scope, mount and focuser could handle the weight?

Edited by Danno2006 (09/03/12 04:35 PM)


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GeneT
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Danno2006]
      #5401592 - 09/03/12 06:15 PM

Quote:

Am I missing anything by saying the 25mm 100 degree ES could very well replace the Nagler 26mm T5 and the 31mm T5, assuming the scope, mount and focuser could handle the weight?




No!


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MitchAlsup
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Danno2006]
      #5403952 - 09/04/12 09:48 PM

Quote:

Am I missing anything by saying the 25mm 100 degree ES could very well replace the Nagler 26mm T5 and the 31mm T5, assuming the scope, mount and focuser could handle the weight?




Yes, probably.

The 25ES100 should (SHOULD) have the same FoV as the 31NT5 and for those of use who are older with smaller eye pupils and use faster F/ratios the 25ES100 should give better background blacks and utilize a bit more of the aperture.

The 31NT4 delivers a 7.75mm exit pupil in a F/4 scope
whereas the 25ES100 delivers a 6.25mm exit pupil.
Both deliver the same true ToV, one with a bit more magnification. But magnification is not the important property, exit pupil is.

So, you get the magnification of the 26NT5 with the FoV of the 31NT5.

I'm guessing it will weight just about what a 31NT5 weights (which coincidentally is equal to the 21E)


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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MitchAlsup]
      #5408503 - 09/07/12 02:54 PM

I'm told that a shipment of the 9mm 120 is due to arrive within a couple of weeks, and that some 25mm 100 eyepieces may be in that shipment.

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Sarkikos
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5408993 - 09/07/12 07:37 PM

I'm out of the big rush to be put on the ES 100 25 waiting list. Since last January when this thread started, I've bought an XO 5.1, an XO 2.5 and an XW 3.5, among other less extravagant acquisitions, such as a second Brandon 12mm. So I believe my Big Eyepiece Expenditure Mojo has been squandered for the indeterminate future. I'll have to make do with my ES 82 30mm for a low-power wide field.

eh
Mike


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leviathan
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5507790 - 11/07/12 12:50 AM

Any news ?

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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: leviathan]
      #5507869 - 11/07/12 02:44 AM

Quote:

Any news ?



I'd say it's likely to be a long wait.
Clears,


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5511124 - 11/09/12 07:39 AM

Santa can't wait much longer.

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M44
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5516606 - 11/12/12 07:44 PM


Message from ES customer service:

Supposed to be received during the week of Nov 19-26th, QC and then to Dealers.


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: M44]
      #5538159 - 11/25/12 01:29 AM

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazuppppppppppppppppppppppppppp?

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Fred1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5538670 - 11/25/12 12:36 PM

I'm told that ES is supposed to receive some the week of November 26th. However, there are more backorders than the quantity they are receiving, so they will satisfy existing backorders first. Also, some might not pass QC inspection. No information on eye relief until they arrive.

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faackanders2
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5540660 - 11/26/12 04:55 PM

Has anyone received one yet, or received a due date?

P.S. Don't see anyting about the 5mm 100 AFOV ES anymore. Are they still developing that one or is it dead?


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5547962 - 11/30/12 10:13 PM

Quote:

Spoke to Sheldon Faworski at Explore Scientific today.
This EP will hit the shelves in 60 days. Many are already spoken for, but he tells me there is nothing lost by putting your name in!
This is just the first batch; more to follow.





It's been ninety Earth days. Have they hit the continental shelves yet?


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Levine
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5548638 - 12/01/12 11:44 AM

Quote:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazuppppppppppppppppppppppppppp?




+1


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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Levine]
      #5555742 - 12/05/12 02:10 PM

The Los Angeles port strike has just ended, so if this is what was holding up delivery of this eyepiece, the shipment should soon be at ES facilities.

Clears,


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5555814 - 12/05/12 03:02 PM

Maybe it is being made on Nibiru.

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MRNUTTY
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5555822 - 12/05/12 03:06 PM

Someday my price will come!

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Jobryant
sage


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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5559463 - 12/07/12 03:04 PM

Has anyone had the chance to look through one of these yet? Seems like there should be at least one or two people out there that have had the opportunity to look through one of these by now. I keep telling myself it should be any day now. Yea I've been saying that for about 6 months.

Edited by Jobryant (12/07/12 03:20 PM)


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jobryant]
      #5560373 - 12/08/12 03:05 AM

One would have thought that someone would have ventured forth with performance observations of the prototypes by now.

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crsrs
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5561306 - 12/08/12 06:27 PM

OOOOHHHH that's what's been going on. I was really getting confused about why there is no ES 82 degree inventory anywhere. Thanks for sheading light on this issue, and yes let's hope those eyepieces are soon in our hands.
Carol


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Jim Romanski
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5562021 - 12/09/12 08:56 AM

I heard from someone who was at the Winter Star Party and looked through the 25mm 100 degree prototype as well as the 9mm 120 degree prototype. For the 25mm they saw sharp star images out to the edge and said that it was a comfortable eyepiece to use. They thought it lacked in contrast compared to the Ethos and said that you could see more stars in a 26mm Nagler that they compared it to up to 82 degreees.

They had concerns with the 9mm though. They described the stars as sharp but the background in the final 25% of the field appeared to be less black (i.e. partially illuminated). Perhaps ES has worked out this bug.


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Jobryant
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5563404 - 12/10/12 12:26 AM

Thanks for the info Jim. Sounds promising hopefully it will be just as good as the other ES100s. I can't wait to try it out against my 30mm 80degree EPs.

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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5564275 - 12/10/12 02:21 PM

Quote:


They had concerns with the 9mm though. They described the stars as sharp but the background in the final 25% of the field appeared to be less black (i.e. partially illuminated). Perhaps ES has worked out this bug.



Descriptions of the 9mm 120's (really a 9mm 140) production model performance can be read here: http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4866855/page...


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star drop
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5567692 - 12/12/12 02:19 PM

Today Astronomics revealed a prototype ES 30mm 100 eyepiece. Was there any news of the ES 25mm 100 eyepiece?

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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5567806 - 12/12/12 03:12 PM

Quote:

Today Astronomics revealed a prototype ES 30mm 100 eyepiece.



I saw this eyepiece at ASAE in Tucson last month. 8 pounds, I think. But you'd need a 3" focuser.

Clears,


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frebieAdministrator
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5567919 - 12/12/12 04:35 PM

Quote:

Today Astronomics revealed a prototype ES 30mm 100 eyepiece. Was there any news of the ES 25mm 100 eyepiece?




They should be in the next container load in January, according to Scott today.


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Hothersale
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5568039 - 12/12/12 06:11 PM

Quote:

They should be in the next container load in January, according to Scott today.



Wrong forum, I know, but is that where the Comet Hunters are too? I've had one on order for more than a month. Thanks for any info.


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jrbarnett
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Hothersale]
      #5568457 - 12/12/12 11:25 PM

Some dealers have them in current stock, if it's for Christmas:

http://www.highpointscientific.com/product/EXS-MN06048CF-00/Explore-Scientifi...

Regards,

Jim


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MRNUTTY
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5568807 - 12/13/12 08:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Today Astronomics revealed a prototype ES 30mm 100 eyepiece. Was there any news of the ES 25mm 100 eyepiece?




They should be in the next container load in January, according to Scott today.




I hope so! I have had the 5 and 25 on pre-order since July hoping they came in someday..


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bsim
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: frebie]
      #5568960 - 12/13/12 10:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Today Astronomics revealed a prototype ES 30mm 100 eyepiece. Was there any news of the ES 25mm 100 eyepiece?




They should be in the next container load in January, according to Scott today.




Do you have any idea when you will receive a shipment of the almost mythical Explore Scientific 68 24mm eyepiece?


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gatorengineer
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bsim]
      #5676558 - 02/12/13 08:39 PM

reviews on the 25 x 100?, and I have the 9MM 120, and its sharp pretty much to the edge....

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leviathan
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5676909 - 02/13/13 01:01 AM

Quote:

reviews on the 25 x 100?



Not yet, but here is another topic with discussions about this EP:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/Eyepieces/Num...


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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: leviathan]
      #5677905 - 02/13/13 03:49 PM

I've had a chance to use this eyepiece a couple of times in the field. Both times conditions were mediocre. Coma is evident in the outer 20% of the radius, though maybe less than I'd expect. The field of view is 1.1 degrees for me, which is excellent for large, bright groups (galaxy trios, for example), and also for extended objects like the Rosette (with an H-Beta filter). But contrast is noticeably better in my 20mm ES100. M42 almost filled the field using an NPB filter. This is not a good finder eyepiece for me, as I often look for relatively faint objects, but there are some objects or groups that it frames better than any other eyepiece I have ever used on my 22". Is it worth the price? Definitely, if you have an SCT, Mak or long focal length refractor. Or if you are an eyepiece junkie...

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turtle86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5678494 - 02/13/13 10:29 PM

Quote:

I've had a chance to use this eyepiece a couple of times in the field. Both times conditions were mediocre. Coma is evident in the outer 20% of the radius, though maybe less than I'd expect. The field of view is 1.1 degrees for me, which is excellent for large, bright groups (galaxy trios, for example), and also for extended objects like the Rosette (with an H-Beta filter). But contrast is noticeably better in my 20mm ES100. M42 almost filled the field using an NPB filter. This is not a good finder eyepiece for me, as I often look for relatively faint objects, but there are some objects or groups that it frames better than any other eyepiece I have ever used on my 22". Is it worth the price? Definitely, if you have an SCT, Mak or long focal length refractor. Or if you are an eyepiece junkie...




I'm wondering how much a Paracorr would help with the coma on this eyepiece. A bit, I would suspect...


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Fred1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5678715 - 02/14/13 02:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've had a chance to use this eyepiece a couple of times in the field. Both times conditions were mediocre. Coma is evident in the outer 20% of the radius, though maybe less than I'd expect. The field of view is 1.1 degrees for me, which is excellent for large, bright groups (galaxy trios, for example), and also for extended objects like the Rosette (with an H-Beta filter). But contrast is noticeably better in my 20mm ES100. M42 almost filled the field using an NPB filter. This is not a good finder eyepiece for me, as I often look for relatively faint objects, but there are some objects or groups that it frames better than any other eyepiece I have ever used on my 22". Is it worth the price? Definitely, if you have an SCT, Mak or long focal length refractor. Or if you are an eyepiece junkie...




I'm wondering how much a Paracorr would help with the coma on this eyepiece. A bit, I would suspect...





Agreed, my Ethos eps without a Paracorr all show coma in my 18" F/4.3, as does my TV 31NT5. With a Paracorr the views are gorgeous, as they are, also, with my 20mm ES 100. Note that in the referenced CN thread a few posts back, Don Pensack's (Starman1) post of 1/10/13 says, "...the image was fairly sharp right near the edge" when using it in daytime in a TV NP101 apo at 22x. The TFOV of 4.63 would seem telling but that wasn't on a starfield.
Also, I would expect the 20mm to have better contrast than a 25mm given the greater magnification.


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FastMike
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: gatorengineer]
      #5679293 - 02/14/13 11:55 AM

Quote:

reviews on the 25 x 100?, and I have the 9MM 120, and its sharp pretty much to the edge....




I had the ES25 out a few times in various scopes.

For edge of field sharpness I rank it as follows:

1. 21 Ethos
2. 31 Nagler
3. 25 ES

The 25ES was very good near the field stop but the 21E and 31N were both better.

I also noted no problems with the edge of field illumination of the 25ES. Using a defocued star, the ES25 was comparable to the 31N.


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Shneor
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5679777 - 02/14/13 03:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've had a chance to use this eyepiece a couple of times in the field. Both times conditions were mediocre. Coma is evident in the outer 20% of the radius, though maybe less than I'd expect. The field of view is 1.1 degrees for me, which is excellent for large, bright groups (galaxy trios, for example), and also for extended objects like the Rosette (with an H-Beta filter). But contrast is noticeably better in my 20mm ES100. M42 almost filled the field using an NPB filter. This is not a good finder eyepiece for me, as I often look for relatively faint objects, but there are some objects or groups that it frames better than any other eyepiece I have ever used on my 22". Is it worth the price? Definitely, if you have an SCT, Mak or long focal length refractor. Or if you are an eyepiece junkie...




I'm wondering how much a Paracorr would help with the coma on this eyepiece. A bit, I would suspect...



Yhis is a pretty heavy eyepiece, weighs at least 2.2 pounds. Using a Paracorr adds more weight and has the eyepiece sticking out about 7 or 8 inches. That makes it a bit difficult to use. Worth it, I guess, if coma bothers you.


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turtle86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Shneor]
      #5680392 - 02/14/13 11:14 PM

Quote:

Yhis is a pretty heavy eyepiece, weighs at least 2.2 pounds. Using a Paracorr adds more weight and has the eyepiece sticking out about 7 or 8 inches. That makes it a bit difficult to use. Worth it, I guess, if coma bothers you.




Seems there are always tradeoffs. I don't mind using the Paracorr with the 21mm Ethos or 31mm Nagler, so I probably wouldn't mind it with the 25mm ES. But that's about my limit--a while back I tried observing with a Paracorr + Powermate + Ethos but quickly found that trio to be quite unwieldly. Of course dropping the Powermate meant getting more Ethos...


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PolarBearCO
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Jeff Black]
      #5682119 - 02/15/13 06:32 PM

Quote:

There are quite a few 2" EPs over 21mm. I have a TeleVue 35mm Panoptic. I have 42mm and 50mm 2" EPs ordered and on the way now.




I was considering ordering a few EPs over 30mm but read a thread about exit pupil and someone suggested to that person that they exit pupil would be too big to be "favorable."

I have a Zhumell Z10. 1250mm. I don't the forula for figuring exit pupil, but the thread was for a similar scope.

What do you think?


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PolarBearCO
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Darenwh]
      #5682124 - 02/15/13 06:35 PM

Quote:

Actually the 5.5mm will be out close enough to my wife's birthday that I could buy it for her!!




That reminds me of a Simpsons' episode where Homer wanted a new bowling ball, so he bought one for his wife, Marge, for her birthday knowing she wouldn't want it. He already had drilled it for his hands and had "Homer" enscribed on it, so she was able to see through his thoughtless and selfish gift. Hahaha.


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Dick Jacobson
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: PolarBearCO]
      #5682227 - 02/15/13 07:39 PM

Quote:

I was considering ordering a few EPs over 30mm but read a thread about exit pupil and someone suggested to that person that they exit pupil would be too big to be "favorable."

I have a Zhumell Z10. 1250mm. I don't the forula for figuring exit pupil, but the thread was for a similar scope.

What do you think?



One way to figure the exit pupil is to divide the focal length of the eyepiece by the focal ratio of the telescope. If your Zhumell Z10 is f/5 focal ratio, then a 30mm eyepiece would have an exit pupil of 30/5 = 6 mm. Since most people middle-aged or older have pupil sizes of around 5 mm, some light would be wasted in this case. The eyepiece might still be useful for its wide field of view despite the stars being a little dimmer. Tele-vue recommends not using an exit pupil over 7.5 mm.


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rodster
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: star drop]
      #5683116 - 02/16/13 10:07 AM

Just had first light last night (between clouds & moon) using a 18 UC Obsession with paracorr. Conditions were not great but allowed time to compare the ES 25 and the Nagler 31, the ES 25 is very comfortable to use, the eye lens is like a movie screen providing a very immersive view, field stop is well defined but I would stop short calling it crisp. Compared to the nagler the field of view was ery similar. The best part was the contrast was much better on the ES 25 (smaller exit pupil). my nagler was giving me a washed out appearance probably due to my aging (64) year old pupils. So objects like the double cluster and galaxies were popping out and much more detailed (same FOV and greater magnification). Stars were crisp of axis basically the same ad the 31 nagler. I also have the ES 20 and the ES 25 views are similar as far as of axis goes, not perfect but very useable, I can focus on a star out on the peripheral view and not loose much focus as the same star is moved to the center. Very similar to all my naglers and ES eyepieces. The only time I felt I was missing the 31 nagler was on the rosette nebula using a filter, here the greater light gathering power of the nagler produced a brighter rendering if the nebulous area but the FOV was similar. I am not a professional, but my viewing was much enhanced using the ES 25 over the nagler 31, the ES 25 is very easy to view through, even relaxing & it will for sure be in my focuser a good share of the time. I highly recommend this EP! Nice work ES!

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Fred1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: rodster]
      #5684079 - 02/16/13 07:05 PM

Welcome to Cloudy Nights, rodster. I very much appreciate your post as I've had my eye on the ES 25mm 100 for the exact reasons that you described in your comparison with the TV31NT5. I had presumed that if the ES25mm was designed correctly that it would be a very nice complement to the 82 AFOV and longer focal length of the 31. You've helped keep it on my short list for new purchases.
Clear and dark skies.


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turtle86
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: rodster]
      #5684373 - 02/16/13 10:46 PM

Thanks for your post, Rodster, and welcome to Cloudy Nights. The 25mm ES 100 sounds promising indeed. I was just curious about which Paracorr setting works best for the 25mm ES 100. I know that the 31mm Nagler and 21mm Ethos perform best with the tunable top all the way in...

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bleep
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: turtle86]
      #5684884 - 02/17/13 10:15 AM

I just noticed there is one on eBay from high point scientific for $599 plus $5.90 shipping actually says 2 available much to much for me just throwing it out there in case some are interested

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Fred1
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: bleep]
      #5685152 - 02/17/13 12:46 PM

Quote:

I just noticed there is one on eBay from high point scientific for $599 plus $5.90 shipping actually says 2 available much to much for me just throwing it out there in case some are interested




Skip ebay and buy directly from Highpoint's website for free shipping.


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careysub
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Re: 25mm ES 100* confirmed? sale date? preorder? new [Re: Dick Jacobson]
      #5685771 - 02/17/13 07:14 PM