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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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mantrain
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/22/11

Loc: San Diego
Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's?
      #5312380 - 07/11/12 03:08 AM Attachment (21 downloads)

I am concern the gap between my LP's and HP's are too great. AS an LP I have a Parks 50mm plossl and a 31mm Nagler type 5. Then after that I have a cheap Celestron 17mm plossl
and a 14mm and 6mm Radian respectively.
I really don't want to go insane with EP's but I enjoy the NGC catalogs, but I am not sure I am set up as well as I need to be, especially within that range from 31mm to 14mm
?
Aalso regarding the 50mm Parks Plossl, I am not sure how to compare that to the 31mm Nagler in terms of function. Can one think of a use/role for the 50mm that would be superior than the Nagler?
Also, would I need to invest in a Paracorr?
thanks!

Edited by mantrain (07/11/12 03:13 AM)


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: mantrain]
      #5312549 - 07/11/12 08:51 AM

mantrain,

LPs? HPs? Low Power? High Power? I've never heard those acronyms before. At first I thought you meant Light Pollution and Hewlett-Packard.

One basic concept to keep in mind when choosing eyepieces is the exit pupil they would produce when used in your telescope. Exit pupil = focal length of eyepiece / f-number of telescope. With this knowledge you can set your LP and HP and go on from there.

In general, the widest exit pupil should not exceed the widest dilation of the pupil of your eye, which is no more than 7mm in most people (probably less for older folks). This will set the limit for the longest focal length eyepiece. (Eyepiece focal length = exit pupil * f-number). Also, for telescopes which have a secondary mirror, the exit pupil should definitely not exceed about 8mm, or you will probably start seeing the shadow of the secondary as a big blob in the center of the field of view. This will be much more noticeable during the day and when observing bright extended objects at night, but it will still degrade the image. If your telescope is f 4 and the pupil of your eye dilates to 7mm, the longest focal length eyepiece should be no longer than about 7mm * 4 = 28mm.

IMO & IME, the narrowest exit pupil - which will set the limit for your shortest focal length eyepiece - should not be less than about 0.5mm, and 0.8mm would probably be better for all but the steadiest nights. Assuming your telescope is f 4, that would give you as your shortest focal length about 0.8mm * 4 = 3.2mm, or 0.5mm * 4 = 2mm. For a 16" f/4, a 3.2mm eyepiece will yield 508x, while a 2mm eyepiece will give you 813x! This will be further limited by seeing conditions and whether or not your mount tracks. You'd probably be safer with a 4mm eyepiece for about 407x and a comfortable 1mm exit pupil. IME, for DSO, only planetary nebulae would get much use out of powers that high.

Of course, if your telescope's f-number is not 4, you'll have to adjust the figures for your specific f-number.

Assuming you're at f/4, a 50mm eyepiece would be much too long a focal length for your telescope. 50mm / 4 = 12.5mm. I doubt if anyone has a 12.5mm eye pupil! Also, that is way beyond the 8mm Big Black Blob limit for reflectors.

Paracorrs are nice, but they are not a necessity. It'd be better to gain some experience with how things look without one. Then maybe borrow another observer's Paracorr to try it out before you buy. Or, if the coma is very obvious to you and you just can't stand it, go get yourself one.

Clear Skies,
Mike


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audioaficionado
sage


Reged: 05/24/12

Loc: Medford, Orygun, USA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5312754 - 07/11/12 12:20 PM

Thanx for this very detailed explanation Mike. Now I've figured out the EP range my eyes can accommodate. Since I'm getting close to 60, I should figure on less than 7mm full pupil dilation.

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amicus sidera
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/14/11

Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: mantrain]
      #5313119 - 07/11/12 06:06 PM

Quote:

I am concern the gap between my LP's and HP's are too great. AS an LP I have a Parks 50mm plossl and a 31mm Nagler type 5. Then after that I have a cheap Celestron 17mm plossl
and a 14mm and 6mm Radian respectively.
I really don't want to go insane with EP's but I enjoy the NGC catalogs, but I am not sure I am set up as well as I need to be, especially within that range from 31mm to 14mm
?





Sounds like you might prefer something in the 21mm range, while ditching the 17mm, but only you can decide that for yourself. One thing's certain, though - if you hang out here on the eyepiece forum long enough, and internalize the discussions, you likely will "go insane", and end up with a case full of eyepieces that you almost never use.

My advice: Don't chase rainbows. The oculars you listed are all solid performers, and the range between the 17mm and the 31mm isn't that great, especially given the 31mm's wide field. If you feel that they give you good views, and there is no visual "gap" that you find particularly troublesome, you can answer your own question.

Quote:

Also regarding the 50mm Parks Plossl, I am not sure how to compare that to the 31mm Nagler in terms of function. Can one think of a use/role for the 50mm that would be superior than the Nagler?
Also, would I need to invest in a Paracorr?
thanks!




As Mike stated, that 50mm probably gives much too large an exit pupil with your setup. A 40mm would be a better bet, again, depending upon the 'scope's focal length. Much past 50 years of age, try for 6mm as an upper exit-pupil limit.

Paracorr's are indeed useful below f/4.5, but again, to paraphrase Mike's comment: "try before buy".


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mantrain
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/22/11

Loc: San Diego
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5313124 - 07/11/12 06:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am concern the gap between my LP's and HP's are too great. AS an LP I have a Parks 50mm plossl and a 31mm Nagler type 5. Then after that I have a cheap Celestron 17mm plossl
and a 14mm and 6mm Radian respectively.
I really don't want to go insane with EP's but I enjoy the NGC catalogs, but I am not sure I am set up as well as I need to be, especially within that range from 31mm to 14mm
?





Sounds like you might prefer something in the 21mm range, while ditching the 17mm, but only you can decide that for yourself. One thing's certain, though - if you hang out here on the eyepiece forum long enough, and internalize the discussions, you likely will "go insane", and end up with a case full of eyepieces that you almost never use.

My advice: Don't chase rainbows. The oculars you listed are all solid performers, and the range between the 17mm and the 31mm isn't that great, especially given the 31mm's wide field. If you feel that they give you good views, and there is no visual "gap" that you find particularly troublesome, you can answer your own question.

Quote:

Also regarding the 50mm Parks Plossl, I am not sure how to compare that to the 31mm Nagler in terms of function. Can one think of a use/role for the 50mm that would be superior than the Nagler?
Also, would I need to invest in a Paracorr?
thanks!




As Mike stated, that 50mm probably gives much too large an exit pupil with your setup. A 40mm would be a better bet, again, depending upon the 'scope's focal length.

Paracorr's are indeed useful below f/4.5, but again, to paraphrase Mike's comment: "try before buy".




thanks, the focal length of my scope is 72" f4.5


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: mantrain]
      #5313160 - 07/11/12 06:40 PM

Quote:

thanks, the focal length of my scope is 72" f4.5




That makes it a 16 inch F/4.5... The 50mm Parks provides an 11mm exit pupil... As has been said, your eye won't open that far, most of the light from the eyepiece not enter you eye, it basically transforms your 16 inch into a 10 inch scope...

The 31mm Nagler provides nearly the same field of view but at a higher magnification, it will show you noticeably more, it's about the ideal low power, widefield eyepiece in a fast scope, providing a 6.9mm exit pupil..

You do "need" some shorter focal length eyepieces... My set stars with the 31mm Nagler and includes 20mm, 16mm, 12mm, 9mm, 7mm etc...

Jon


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MikeRatcliff
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 06/12/04

Loc: Redlands, CA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5314844 - 07/12/12 06:38 PM

I'd recommend something around 9-10mm as a next eyepiece. That would be about 180x-200x and would be useful for many smaller DSO's without hitting the limits of seeing that plague the higher magnifications. This would show more details after you have found the object.

Your existing 6mm would be about 300x and could be too much magnification for the sky conditions on many nights of so-so seeing.

Your 14mm eyepiece (130x) will be a very useful eyepiece. That is a good magnification for a 16". The Radian would have a true field of view of about 1/2 degree.

I think you could use the 31mm and 14mm for most of your observing, with frequent excursions to the 9-10mm and then on to 6mm on some nights.

So you could have:

31/14/10/6
mag: 60x, 130x, 180x, 300x
field of view:
1.4deg, 0.46deg, 0.33deg(assuming 10mm Radian), 0.2deg
exit pupils: 6.8mm, 3.1mm, 2.2mm, 1.3mm
spacing between eyepieces (1.4 to 1.6 often recommended): 2.2, 1.4, 1.7

After that you can try 20mm and 8mm. Or you can do like I have and buy and sell about 50 eyepieces and go insane.

Mike


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5314908 - 07/12/12 07:32 PM

A practical set, adjusted for exit pupil, would be to have:
6/4/2/1mm exit pupils and a good barlow to double them:
i.e. focal lengths of 26, 18, 9, and 4.5mm

If the eyepieces are a little expensive, then just the 26-18-9mm combo with a barlow. After all, even a 1mm exit pupil is a magnification of 406X in your scope. It's been explained that larger-than-practical exit pupils don't benefit the scope, but smaller than 1mm, a lot of people stat seeing "floaters" in the eye--little bits of protein accumulations in the vitreous humor in the eye that will actually intercept the very narrow light cone of the higher-power eyepieces. They can be very annoying if they fall directly in front of the feature you want to see.

If chosen solely by target type, a set providing 80X/160X/240X, with a barlow, would work great. That's focal lengths of 22-23mm/11-12mm/7-8mm

A premium, and ultra-nice set would be a TeleVue 21/13/8 Ethos set. Expensive, but nice, and complementary to the 31N.

A low-priced set that might do well would be Baader Hyperions in 24/13/and 8mm

A moderately-priced set would be the ES 20/14/9 100 degree (the high end of the ES lines) or the 24/14/8.8 in the 82 degree field (the mid-field offerings).

As for barlows, it pays to get a decent one. You are going to have high power images be damaged by seeing anyway--you don't want images damaged by poor optics.

Your focal length is 1829mm without, and 2103mm with a Paracorr coma corrector. Or, f/4.5 without and f/5.2 with.


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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: audioaficionado]
      #5314929 - 07/12/12 07:41 PM

Quote:

Thanx for this very detailed explanation Mike. Now I've figured out the EP range my eyes can accommodate. Since I'm getting close to 60, I should figure on less than 7mm full pupil dilation.



The average at 60 is about 5 to 5.5mm.
My own (at 61) is 4.5mm.
But, there is quite a spread. My wife is 54 and her dark-adapted pupil is over 7mm, so go figure.
The general spread is 4-9mm at all age groups, with 4-4.5mm an average for 80 year-olds, and 9mm the absolute human maximum for 15 year-olds.
But the range is +/- 2mm or so at every age group.

There are several great methods listed on-line to help determine your actual dark-adapted pupil size.
Links


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audioaficionado
sage


Reged: 05/24/12

Loc: Medford, Orygun, USA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5314995 - 07/12/12 08:25 PM

If you have an IR cam, you could get a good dark adapted shot with a ruler in front.

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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: audioaficionado]
      #5315078 - 07/12/12 09:20 PM

If you don't want to have a whole buncha eyepieces right off you could spend all night long with that 31T5 and a 13 Ethos. You can get more later but imho with your scope, it's worth a little over $400 used to get a 13 Ethos and match it with that 31T5. Offset it by selling the 14mm Radian for $150.

31T5. 13E. You really almost don't need anything else with a 16" f4.5.


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mantrain
professor emeritus


Reged: 07/22/11

Loc: San Diego
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5315403 - 07/13/12 02:20 AM

Quote:

If you don't want to have a whole buncha eyepieces right off you could spend all night long with that 31T5 and a 13 Ethos. You can get more later but imho with your scope, it's worth a little over $400 used to get a 13 Ethos and match it with that 31T5. Offset it by selling the 14mm Radian for $150.

31T5. 13E. You really almost don't need anything else with a 16" f4.5.




An interesting proposition but those are the among the most expensive EP's on the market right now, not likely found within $400 range.
I am not sure I see the strong benefit of moving frmo a 14"mm radian to a very expensive 13mm Ethos.
someone tell me, if you had them both out at night, and looked at various objects with each one, say, m101, and or M80, how would a 13 Ethos look so much better than with 14mm Radian? It would need to be so much better view to spend many hundreds of dollars. no?


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whirlpoolm51
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Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: mantrain]
      #5315409 - 07/13/12 02:26 AM

I had an 8mm ethos , a 12 and 14mm radian that i used the most with my 16'' f4.5 and a fellow at a star party let me try is 13mm ethos and let me say it blew my mind how much different the view was!!!!!! way clearer and crisper than even the 8mm ethos and worlds better than the raidans!!!

On the m27(dumbell nebula) it blew my mind the difference!!! i guess it was just the right mag

It framed m27 beautilfully!!!

m81 and m82 were big and bright!!!!
It really gives you a very very well framed and well defined image!!

IMO the 13mm ethos is the best of the bunch just my 2 cents though!!

if you want to head a cheaper route though i find the explore scientific 14mm 100* does 90% of what the 13mm ethos does for half the price!!!

on sale for 300 right now brand new!!!


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whirlpoolm51
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Reged: 01/05/12

Loc: pittsburgh,pa
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: whirlpoolm51]
      #5315419 - 07/13/12 02:37 AM

i dont know the in's and out's of ep's but i find myself in the same situation that you are in alot!!!

Plus all our eyes are different but people of all ages praise the 13mm ethos for its ability to perform

I am 23 and the fellow who lent me the 13mm ethos was 50 and we both still felt the same about it thats why i find it to be a very very well rounded eyepice!!!


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Achernar
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Reged: 02/25/06

Loc: Mobile, Alabama, USA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: mantrain]
      #5315516 - 07/13/12 07:35 AM

The 50mm Plossl has a much too long focal length, indeed anything over about 30mm will lead to a dark spot appearing in the field of view. That is the shadow of the diagonal mirror, and the 31mm Nagler therefore is already your low-power, wide field eyepiece. I would definitely keep it. The 14 and 6mm are certainly going to be useful, but I suggest you look into the ES 82 degree eyepieces. They give up little to the Naglers in terms of performance, espeically if you do not wear eyeglasses. A 24mm, 14mm, 8.8 and 6.7mm ES 82 degree eyepiece will handle almost anything you care to look at. In fact, I opted to purchase all but the 30mm model of these eyepieces for the 15-inch I built, because my middle aged eyes don't accommadate a large exit pupil as well as a younger person's would. The Radians are not bad eyepieces at all, but the very large apparent field of view is very helpful when star hopping, because a 16-inch magnifies everything much more than a smaller Dob will, hence you get a much smaller field of view. That is one reason for the popularity of ultra-wide angle eyepieces. Otherwise, if you are satisfies with them, look for a 10mm and a 25mm eyepiece, plus a good Barlow and you should have all you need for anything you care to look at.

Taras


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Loc: Deep Space!
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Achernar]
      #5315523 - 07/13/12 07:44 AM Attachment (13 downloads)

Quote:

I had an 8mm ethos , a 12 and 14mm radian that i used the most with my 16'' f4.5 and a fellow at a star party let me try is 13mm ethos and let me say it blew my mind how much different the view was!!!!!! way clearer and crisper than even the 8mm ethos and worlds better than the radans!!!

On the m27(dumbell nebula) it blew my mind the difference!!! i guess it was just the right mag

It framed m27 beautifully!!!

m81 and m82 were big and bright!!!!
It really gives you a very very well framed and well defined image!!

IMO the 13mm ethos is the best of the bunch just my 2 cents though!!

If you want to head a cheaper route though i find the explore scientific 14mm 100* does 90% of what the 13mm ethos does for half the price!!!

on sale for 300 right now brand new!!!




Whirly,

The reason M-27 was better with the 13mm Ethos is because of the right magnification and size. If I use my 7mm XW on M-27, even with my Orion Ultrablock, the image is spread out too far, (160x / 26'). If I use my 14mm UWA + Orion Ultrablock on M-27, the view is perfect at 86x / 58').

You need to experiment with different eyepieces to gain the right image size / mag / brightness factor. When adding a filter, that also changes the way you see objects.

See Attachment, which would be better if it was larger. If you have Stellarium, you can plug this information in and see for yourself.

Top pic is M-27 with the 13mm Ethos at 141x / 43' in your 16" F/4.5. The second pic below that is M-27 with the 8mm Ethos at 229x / 26'. The image with the 13mm Ethos is brighter and has a nicer image size. In your scope the 8mm Ethos would be nice for Saturn, Jupiter, some smaller planetary nebulae and more.

Cheers,


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5315537 - 07/13/12 07:54 AM

An easier and faster way to experiment with various focal lengths for optimal image scale, magnification and contrast when observing DSO is to use a good zoom eyepiece rather than switching among different eyepieces. I do this at my dark site with a Baader Hyperion Zoom. Usually only if the object is very large or near the LM of my scope do I bother trying different eyepieces - which is ironic, because I bring along a case of about 30 eyepieces!

But for large objects or large fields of several objects, or maybe just to frame an object better, I put in an ES 100 deg or 82 deg eyepiece. For very dim objects I might try one of my orthos. Now that I have an XW 3.5, I'll experiment with that for viewing planetary nebulae.

Mike


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Loc: Deep Space!
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5315542 - 07/13/12 07:59 AM

Quote:

An easier and faster way to experiment with various focal lengths for optimal image scale, magnification and contrast when observing DSO is to use a good zoom eyepiece rather than switching among different eyepieces. I do this at my dark site with a Baader Hyperion Zoom. Usually only if the object is very large or near the LM of my scope do I bother trying different eyepieces - which is ironic, because I bring along a case of about 30 eyepieces!

Mike




True for image scale / brightness factor. But with Ethoii, the AFOV will be wider and framing will be easier because of the big 100° field. Good idea with the zoom EP though! No other eyepieces to fiddle with!


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Sarkikos
Postmaster
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Reged: 12/18/07

Loc: Suburban Maryland, USA
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5315554 - 07/13/12 08:07 AM

The Baader Zoom is very convenient if you want to go through a list of DSO that are of various types and sizes, since you're able to vary the contrast, framing and visible detail by dialing in the optimal magnification. That's really helped me with the H400 and H400-II and H3 lists.

If I'm going to observe many diffuse nebulae, stacking the Baader Zoom on a filter wheel loaded with DSO filters gives me even more flexibility!

Mike


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
*****

Reged: 12/26/04

Loc: Deep Space!
Re: Do I have what I need for my 16" Dob for DSO's? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5315559 - 07/13/12 08:14 AM

For sure Mike! Plus it saves a world of time in having to switch eyepieces! I almost grabbed the Baader Zoom myself, but wasn't quite sure about it. It looks like you are finding it very useful eh?

Can you literally spend an entire night with just the Baader Zoom and say maybe a wide angle / low power EP for hopping? Sounds like the Baader Zoom would be a good investment! :O


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