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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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5u4
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Who invented the barrel safety undercut?
      #5526417 - 11/18/12 04:25 PM

Wondering if anyone knows the origin of this ignoramus feature & why the vast majority of eyepieces available today come with it.

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Astrojensen
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5526440 - 11/18/12 04:35 PM

I don't know, but...


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Starman1
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5526561 - 11/18/12 06:26 PM

I'm guessing some time in the late '80s because my earlier eyepieces definitely didn't have the groove.
Many of my eyepieces from the '90s didn't either, so it's only become fairly universal since 2000.


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Loren Toole
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5526564 - 11/18/12 06:27 PM

I've been reluctantly participating in this sales gimmick since it first appeared in the late 90s.... to the best of my knowledge, Televue was the first. Obviously this was an "innovation" at the time, but poorly considered since it also appeared when setscrews were being replaced by compression rings.

I believe it was the heavy Panoptics and Naglers that justified this extra safety feature...

Edited by Loren Toole (11/19/12 07:21 AM)


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herrointment
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5526572 - 11/18/12 06:31 PM

I can't think of one EP I own that is easily removed from the diagonal.

Is there not a fortune to be made in replacement barrels?

No there is not. I do wish someone would try just for the ____ of it.


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Pollux556
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5526586 - 11/18/12 06:35 PM

Thanks to this invention ! May be my 20mm Nagler T2 would not have been in such good condition.

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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Pollux556]
      #5526602 - 11/18/12 06:41 PM

I hate this invention too. Eyepieces used to get hung up on my compression ring when I did have the ones with the safety undercut on them, but I have none because I use Antares Twist lock adapters on all of my 1.25" eyepieces and the 2" eyepieces I do have do NOT have the safety undercut on them.

I have two extension tubes that have this on them and I have tape in there wound right up until the undercut is GONE.

I steer clear of them.

However, if I used a diagonal and an EQ scope where the configurations of my scope move a lot, the safety undercut would be good to have in case one of the eyepieces were loose in the diagonal.


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jgraham
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5526688 - 11/18/12 07:35 PM

Grrrrr, I hate that darned 'feature'. I just dropped a set screw in the grass trying to get my eyepiece out! In some cases I've filled it in with aluminized tape.

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ibase
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5526712 - 11/18/12 07:46 PM

At one time it saved my Nagler 5T6 from falling onto hard concrete so I can't say that am hating 'em.

Best,


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: jgraham]
      #5526720 - 11/18/12 07:48 PM

Do we really need safety undercuts in eyepieces to keep them from falling out? There's little chance of that happening with my Dobs. The focusers are all slanted upwards at about 45 degrees or so. Unless the eyepieces jump up and out of the focuser on their own, they aren't coming out until I take them out. I only see that this "improvement" would make sense for refractors and SCTs and Maks. The focuser in those are at the wrong end of the tube!

I can say this. I have some of those scopes.


Mike

Diagonal? Isn't that just another name for the secondary mirror?


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herrointment
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5526756 - 11/18/12 08:12 PM Attachment (41 downloads)

I DO have one EP that was easily removed from the holder thingy.

Never put it back after one look. It has a new job in the workshop....


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Starman1
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: herrointment]
      #5526761 - 11/18/12 08:16 PM

Quote:

I DO have one EP that was easily removed from the holder thingy.

Never put it back after one look. It has a new job in the workshop....





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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5526915 - 11/18/12 09:45 PM

Quote:

I don't know, but...


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




Definitely a solution in desperate search of a problem.


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iluxo
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5527019 - 11/18/12 10:52 PM

Thankfully my Vixen e.p.'s don't have this.

Unfortunately both my TMB ones do and its a major nuisance.


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Ed Kessler
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: iluxo]
      #5527054 - 11/18/12 11:14 PM

Brandons don't have the undercut!!!

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davidpitre
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Ed Kessler]
      #5527066 - 11/18/12 11:26 PM

When I am struggling to pull my $800. Ethos out of my $500. Paracorr I frequently think " Really? Is it necessary that I put up with this? This is the best you can do?"

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GeneT
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5527162 - 11/19/12 12:35 AM

This is a situation where some eyepiece makers insist on forcing a design element that most users would rather not have.

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Mike B
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5527199 - 11/19/12 12:58 AM

Quote:

Who invented the barrel safety undercut?




Wasn't that first developed by Mr. Safety, the TeleVue designer guy before Mr. Dellechiaie?


Yeah, i can envision where a Mak or 'fractor with a "secondary" mirror at the aft-end could suddenly loosen & twist 180-degrees with a glass grenade inserted, spilling the big guy onto the pavement or dirt. Yet how many instances of an expensive EP slipping from gloved fingers while suddenly hanging up by the dreaded undercut, and thence toppling from the focuser?

Instead, Mr. Safety, how about a short lanyard, fastened with some fancy schmancy proprietary system to the focuser, with a safety clip hooked at the EP? You could use the flange screw supplied with so many green-lettered EPs. ... or the hole it disappears from. I've actually done that with a pair of 12T4 Naglers in my BVer.

Otherwise, i have no use for safety undercuts.


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cjc
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5527315 - 11/19/12 04:08 AM

Thin shallow grooves on well fitting barrels would be worthwhile to me, if only they were standardised. However in practice undercuts range in depth from a sensible 0.2mm (Vixen NPL, Antares Ortho), to a ludicrous 0.6mm (TMB Planetary and ES), with the dimensions and profile of the undercut area also varying widely. Barrel sizes also vary with the Antares Ortho being an interference fit at 31.7mm compared with my 24mm ES68 which is significantly undersized at 31.4mm. The variations are such that when coupled with the misnamed compression ring, it is hardly surprising that there are problems.

Edited by cjc (11/19/12 04:09 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: cjc]
      #5527346 - 11/19/12 05:14 AM

Personally I like eyepieces with undercuts...

There are a few combinations that can result in an eyepiece getting hung up, the TMB Planetary's and the William Optics 2inch-1.25 inch do not always mate and it takes a bit of rock to get them free but in general they work just fine... Never have a problem with the TeleVue adapters or focusers/Paracorrs.

I do appreciate them with viewing with my 12.5 inch F/6 equatorial because sometimes the focuser is pointing down and the undercut adds a bit security, an eyepiece falling 5 or 6 feet and hitting concrete is worth avoiding.

Jon


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: davidpitre]
      #5527519 - 11/19/12 09:14 AM

Quote:

When I am struggling to pull my $800. Ethos out of my $500. Paracorr I frequently think " Really? Is it necessary that I put up with this? This is the best you can do?"




While I don't have many kind things to say about the hated "safety" undercut (which functions much more like a product defect), in all fairness the tapered iteration as seen on the new Delos is somewhat better in terms of snagging on my AP MaxBrite. I have yet to test it in my Moonlight focuser.

But all things considered, in my estimation I have much more risk of being involved in a car accident that damages my astro gear than risk of dropping an eyepiece. But I still accept the risk of driving to the dark sites and the higher risk of returning home fatigued on twisty mountain roads with deer popping out everywhere.

I would be happy to accept the remote risk of smooth side eyepieces to restore 100% function reliability in my focusers and star diagonals.


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Darren Drake
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5527558 - 11/19/12 09:45 AM

Like Howard missing gravity on the Big Bang Theory I miss pulling out an eyepiece nice and smoooooth outa the focuser with NO hangups....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0tdafkvl3A&feature=related

Edited by Darren Drake (11/19/12 09:49 AM)


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csrlice12
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Darren Drake]
      #5527684 - 11/19/12 10:53 AM

Just bought new 1.25" adapters with the collar instead of just the set screws; but even these took a few "in and out" with the eyepieces before they started going "in and out" without catching.

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Mike B
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5527783 - 11/19/12 11:48 AM

Quote:

the TMB Planetary's and the William Optics 2inch-1.25 inch do not always mate and it takes a bit of rock to get them free but in general they work just fine...




Jon, do you find that standard sandstone does the trick, or does it require something like granite to get them out?


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dscarpa
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5527841 - 11/19/12 12:23 PM

My newer TVs with the tappered undercut and similar ones on other eyepieces rarely get hung up. Ditto for very shallow ones near the top of the barrel like my XWs have. The worst are my 2 Meade 5000 UWAs and older style Ethos 13's 2" barrel and Nagler 22 all with deep undercuts. My preference would be smooth long barrels but the better undercuts are ok. David

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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5527869 - 11/19/12 12:40 PM

Do focusers, diagonals and extensions with compression collars also get hung up on these barrel undercuts?

Mike


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Starman1
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5528025 - 11/19/12 01:51 PM

They hang up as much or more than the nominal thumbscrew binding, except they catch in more than one place.

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star drop
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5528036 - 11/19/12 02:01 PM

Quote:

Wondering if anyone knows the origin of this ignoramus feature & why the vast majority of eyepieces available today come with it.



According to Sigmund Freud:
The poor soul that came up with this must have had painful childhood memories.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: star drop]
      #5528076 - 11/19/12 02:21 PM

Ja, he had "hangups." Meshugana.

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BillP
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5528115 - 11/19/12 02:47 PM

Mike Hosea in 2004 seems to be the first post in the CN Archives that uses the word "undercut". Of course he didn't like it Thread.

The Celestron 1998 Catalog shows eyepieces with undercuts.

I do not see eyepieces with undercuts in any catalog older than 1990. So guess sometime between 1990-1997 some evil scientist must have invented them.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5528168 - 11/19/12 03:17 PM

Quote:

Personally I like eyepieces with undercuts...

There are a few combinations that can result in an eyepiece getting hung up, the TMB Planetary's and the William Optics 2inch-1.25 inch do not always mate and it takes a bit of rock to get them free but in general they work just fine... Never have a problem with the TeleVue adapters or focusers/Paracorrs.

I do appreciate them with viewing with my 12.5 inch F/6 equatorial because sometimes the focuser is pointing down and the undercut adds a bit security, an eyepiece falling 5 or 6 feet and hitting concrete is worth avoiding. Jon




I like to move quickly changing out eyepieces. I am careful beyond belief, careful to the point of obsession. I find that the undercuts actually increase (for me) the possibility of dropping an eyepiece. I have the eyepiece in tow, am going to swap it out--and it hangs up getting past the focusser. I then have to play with it to get it home free. All that increases the chance that I will drop it. If the eyepiece just slid out easily, it, for me, would be quicker and safer.
PS--I am talking about TeleVue Naglers, Delos, and Radian eyepieces here.


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Mike Hosea
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: BillP]
      #5528244 - 11/19/12 03:44 PM

Quote:

Mike Hosea in 2004 seems to be the first post in the CN Archives that uses the word "undercut". Of course he didn't like it Thread.





Yes, I hate the things, whatever they're called, but eyepiece makers would probably do well to ignore my opinion on the matter, as it has been a long time since I bought an eyepiece and am not planning to buy any more. This will change if I ever buy a new scope, but I have no plans of that just now, either.

Anyhoo, at some point the eyepiece forum was added. I think you can find mention of it further back in the Equipment forum. You can go back even further on SAA or perhaps on Astromart's Equipment forum, which was where we discussed eyepieces there before Astromart's Eyepieces forum was created. I remember adopting the term myself because it was already the one in common usage by the time I started paying attention to such things. I would have preferred to call it a "safety recess", since it seems to me "overcut", rather.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5528249 - 11/19/12 03:47 PM

Quote:



I like to move quickly changing out eyepieces. I am careful beyond belief, careful to the point of obsession. I find that the undercuts actually increase (for me) the possibility of dropping an eyepiece. I have the eyepiece in tow, am going to swap it out--and it hangs up getting past the focusser. I then have to play with it to get it home free. All that increases the chance that I will drop it. If the eyepiece just slid out easily, it, for me, would be quicker and safer.
PS--I am talking about TeleVue Naglers, Delos, and Radian eyepieces here.




Gene, I have an easier procedure for you:

1) Get the Bond movie "For Your Eyes Only"

2) Fast forward towards the end. The scene you are looking for is the battle to capture the Operations Center (hidden behind an armored wall) of the faux-supertanker that captured the disabled US and Soviet nuclear subs.

3) Watch how Roger Moore removes the explosive detonator from the nuclear warhead of a Poseidon missile. That's the proper technique.

Edited by Jeff Morgan (11/19/12 03:49 PM)


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dscarpa
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5528271 - 11/19/12 03:56 PM

I did drop my Nagler 22 onto the lawn once while trying to get it out of focuser because it hung up on the undercut. My 14 ES 82 got jammed up in a 1.25" adapter somehow and I had a devil of a time getting it out. David

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Deep13
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5528285 - 11/19/12 04:02 PM

Let's just say that if Dante had known someone was going to invent the safety undercut, he would have created an additional level in Hades for him.

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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Deep13]
      #5528471 - 11/19/12 05:49 PM

I can't stand them either, but I have alleviated the problem by using twist lock adapters on all of my eyepieces that are 1.25" and have it. In my earlier post I said it helps having one if you have a diagonal, but now that I think about it, it would still be useless ~ useless to me anyways.

All one needs to do is TIGHTEN the eyepiece in there to prevent it from falling out. I mean really, if you haven't got anything upstairs to prevent an eyepiece from falling out then I would suggest getting out of the hobby altogether,

I personally hate undercuts on my eyepieces, so I avoid them altogether by using adapters or taping them up!

ARE ANY EYEPIECE MAKERS OUT THERE READING THIS ?????

LOL !!!!!

PS: I also HATE the tapered barrels on the ES eyepieces too.

Please make the barrels straight !!!!

Cheers,


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5528476 - 11/19/12 05:52 PM

Quote:

3) Watch how Roger Moore removes the explosive detonator from the nuclear warhead of a Poseidon missile. That's the proper technique.




Good point. If I learn how to do this, I will join the CIA.


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Eddgie
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5528549 - 11/19/12 06:39 PM

I did.













No. Not really. I just made that up... Ok,, I lied. I just wanted my 15 minutes of fame that Andy Warhol said we would all get. All the good stuff was already taken and this looked like something that maybe I could maybe take credit for and no one would figure it out.

By my morality made me confess.


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Mike B
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5528579 - 11/19/12 07:00 PM

Quote:

But my morality made me confess.




Ya, well you can be glad it didn't get stuck in the compression-ring while trying to retract it!


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coopman
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Mike B]
      #5528800 - 11/19/12 08:59 PM

Whoever did it, I hate them.

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Lt 26
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: coopman]
      #5528881 - 11/19/12 09:43 PM

I think we can all blame Tele Vue for the continued use of the undercut whether or not they invented it. What I don't understand is why they continue to when well over 90% of their customers would like them to stop. Do they know something we don't or are they intentionally being cruel.

If they offered them both ways I don't think it would take very long for them to figure out they have been ticking off folks long enough.

Dereck


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Lt 26]
      #5528887 - 11/19/12 09:46 PM

AMEN !!!

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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Lt 26]
      #5528897 - 11/19/12 09:51 PM

Quote:


If they offered them both ways I don't think it would take very long for them to figure out they have been ticking off folks long enough.

Dereck




And I think they would have a tremendous inventory problem with undercut eyepieces.

TeleVue would have an even larger problem if the Cloners listened to the customers and offered smoothies.

Edited by Jeff Morgan (11/19/12 09:53 PM)


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Jim Romanski
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5528954 - 11/19/12 10:14 PM

Quote:

Personally I like eyepieces with undercuts...



I'm with Jon. I prefer them on my heavier eyepieces. It has saved more than one expensive Televue eyepiece for me.

I don't know when the practice started but I bought a 20mm Type II Nagler that had one. Later I inherited an older version of the 20mm Type II that did NOT have an undercut. When I went to sell one of them on Astromart I gave the buyer the choice of which one they wanted and they asked for the one with the undercut.

I don't really have a problem removing my eyepieces. I've gotten used to loosening the compression ring a couple of turns rather than a half turn. I will say that the newer Televues with the beveled undercut work better.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5529426 - 11/20/12 06:07 AM

Quote:

I like to move quickly changing out eyepieces. I am careful beyond belief, careful to the point of obsession. I find that the undercuts actually increase (for me) the possibility of dropping an eyepiece. I have the eyepiece in tow, am going to swap it out--and it hangs up getting past the focusser. I then have to play with it to get it home free. All that increases the chance that I will drop it. If the eyepiece just slid out easily, it, for me, would be quicker and safer.
PS--I am talking about TeleVue Naglers, Delos, and Radian eyepieces here.




I change eyepieces frequently, generally using several for any given object. But I don't rush things, like any mechanical component that is a close fit, slow, smooth and steady is best. I just don't have much trouble with getting the eyepieces in an out of focusers... On any given night, I spend more time fussing with 2 inch filter threads than I do with undercuts.

I am glad I don't seem to have the same problems with undercuts, the rest of you do... or maybe I have the same problems, they just don't bother me... don't know. Last night, I spent a couple of hours in the backyard with 3 different telescopes, viewing double stars, Jupiter and various DSOs... lots of eyepiece changes, lots of undercuts... zero hangups.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5529459 - 11/20/12 06:47 AM

A good way to avoid hanging up on the undercuts is to keep a nice Zoom eyepiece in the focuser for most of the observing session. Less changes, less hangups. Sigmund Freud would be proud. Sehr gut!

My Baader Zoom sees so much sky time, I can't even recall if it has an undercut...


Mike


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ibase
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5529494 - 11/20/12 07:12 AM

Quote:

A good way to avoid hanging up on the undercuts is to keep a nice Zoom eyepiece in the focuser for most of the observing session. Less changes, less had ngups. Sigmund Freud would be proud. Sehr gut!

My Baader Zoom sees so much sky time, I can't even recall if it has an undercut...


Mike




Mike you beat me to it, I was just about to say the same i.e., use a no-need-to-swap-EP's zoom!

Best,


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5529545 - 11/20/12 08:00 AM

Quote:

A good way to avoid hanging up on the undercuts is to keep a nice Zoom eyepiece in the focuser for most of the observing session. Less changes, less hangups. Sigmund Freud would be proud. Sehr gut!

My Baader Zoom sees so much sky time, I can't even recall if it has an undercut...


Mike




When they finally get the prototype 31mm-1.75mm, 82degree AFoV Zoom that is well corrected at F/4 into production, it would be of interest. Until then, I'll be swapping eyepieces...

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5529567 - 11/20/12 08:16 AM

My Baader Zoom is good enough for 90% of what's up there. Optics or objects? I'm more concerned with the objects.

For the big stuff, I switch to my wide field ES eyepieces. For really dim stuff, I might try a good ortho, XW or XO.

Mike


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5529573 - 11/20/12 08:22 AM Attachment (11 downloads)

I tried the Baader Zoom last Friday. Edge correction was so-so. I liked it at the 8mm setting, but in zooming back to the 24mm setting felt very restricted. I'm glad I tried it before I bought it because I didn't like it at all.

YMMV...

As you can see here, no safety undercuts to worry about at all!



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Paul G
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Lt 26]
      #5529624 - 11/20/12 09:06 AM

Quote:

I think we can all blame Tele Vue for the continued use of the undercut whether or not they invented it. What I don't understand is why they continue to when well over 90% of their customers would like them to stop.




It's not even 90% in this thread, not sure where you are getting that idea. I agree with Jon, the undercut causes me no problems. Using an equatorial mount I often find the diagonal pointing at the ground after a slew so I can see its utility.

Not sure why you would blame TV; I've seen undercuts on a variety of premium and nonpremium brands, including Zeiss.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5529630 - 11/20/12 09:08 AM

Obviously not every eyepiece is for everyone, just as not every eyepiece is for every object or application. That's why I still hang on to my wide fields, my XO's, my bino pairs, and even my Huygens. I've only sold eyepieces that come close to duplicating another eyepiece's function and focal length ... or that didn't appeal to me for some reason.

For me, absolutely pristine sharpness to the edge is not always important for every object I'm observing. It just isn't. (Though the Baader Zoom is not bad.) And a wide field is not always necessary. I let the objects dictate the optics.

Also, I'm able to observe at my dark site only once or twice a month if I'm lucky. It just makes more sense - for my purposes - to avoid switching among eyepieces when I only have a limited amount of time to observe all the objects that I want to observe. Usually I only switch to another eyepiece when it makes sense in terms of that object, not in terms of what I expect out of the optics.

Mike


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JIMZ7
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5529838 - 11/20/12 11:04 AM

Let's hear it for the smooth barrels!

Jim


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Scott99
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: JIMZ7]
      #5529996 - 11/20/12 12:09 PM

The occasional anti-undercut thread is welcome and always entertaining!

I often use under-mounted scopes and therefore have gone to great lengths to purge all undercut eyepieces out of my case - I once paid $150 to get a smooth barrel made for my 35mm Panoptic. It just takes a little extra commitment to beat this annoying problem.

By using some vintage and carefully selected modern ep's, I currently have around 25 eyepieces - the only ones with undercut are the 3 Pentax XW's. Unfortunately they have lenses in the barrels or I'd try to replace them too.


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dscarpa
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5530035 - 11/20/12 12:25 PM

I suspect differences in diagonals or focusers compression ring set up has an effect on hang up issues. I've got 2 OPT dialectric and one Meade dialectric diagonals all 2". So far I don't have any hang up issues getting eyepieces out of my newish Antares 1.25"-2" twist-lock adapters of which I have 3 and am using in place of the ones that came with the diagonals. As to eyepieces with a deep sharp edged undercut add the 31 Hyperion Aspheric to the list. David

Edited by dscarpa (11/20/12 12:37 PM)


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Starman1
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: dscarpa]
      #5530051 - 11/20/12 12:32 PM

Quote:

I suspect differences in diagonals or focusers compression ring set up has an effect on hang up issues. I've got 2 OPT dielectric and one Meade dielectric all 2". As to eyepieces with a deep sharp edged undercut add the 31 Hyperion Aspheric to the list. David



Eyepieces vary in size and so do focusers and star diagonals, so some fits might be tight while others are loose.
And some brass ring inserts in focusers and star diagonals are rectangular in cross-section. They also work just as well if the brass ring is more lenticular in cross section. Try removing the ring and sanding down the edges to make them thinner than the centers and the hang up on eyepiece barrels is virtually eliminated.
Or, simply remove the brass ring and have the thumbscrew press directly on the eyepiece. It will mean marks on the eyepiece (who really cares?), but the "safety retention groove" won't be the issue it is when the brass ring is in place.


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dscarpa
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5530058 - 11/20/12 12:36 PM

Thanks for the tip! David

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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5530067 - 11/20/12 12:38 PM

Quote:

My Baader Zoom is good enough for 90% of what's up there. Optics or objects? I'm more concerned with the objects.

For the big stuff, I switch to my wide field ES eyepieces. For really dim stuff, I might try a good ortho, XW or XO.

Mike




Mike:

It all depends on your mind set... If one limits the objects to those that are visible with a 8-24mm zoom, then yeah... but that doesn't work for me.

Jon Isaacs


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dscarpa
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: 5u4]
      #5530075 - 11/20/12 12:46 PM

I like my Hyperion Zoom a lot but on very good nights the difference in image quality between it and my XWs, Delos, Ethos and LVW is not subtle. David

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csrlice12
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5530085 - 11/20/12 12:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

A good way to avoid hanging up on the undercuts is to keep a nice Zoom eyepiece in the focuser for most of the observing session. Less changes, less hangups. Sigmund Freud would be proud. Sehr gut!

My Baader Zoom sees so much sky time, I can't even recall if it has an undercut...


Mike




When they finally get the prototype 31mm-1.75mm, 82degree AFoV Zoom that is well corrected at F/4 into production, it would be of interest. Until then, I'll be swapping eyepieces...

Jon




and if they could do it for the same $50 price as the Zhummel 8-24mm zoom, that would be a best seller....everybody would want one.....


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SteveG
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5530104 - 11/20/12 01:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think we can all blame Tele Vue for the continued use of the undercut whether or not they invented it. What I don't understand is why they continue to when well over 90% of their customers would like them to stop.




It's not even 90% in this thread, not sure where you are getting that idea. I agree with Jon, the undercut causes me no problems. Using an equatorial mount I often find the diagonal pointing at the ground after a slew so I can see its utility.

Not sure why you would blame TV; I've seen undercuts on a variety of premium and nonpremium brands, including Zeiss.




FWIW, I ran a poll here on CN a couple of years ago. The Like/Don't Like was about 2 to 1 in favor of no undercuts or tapered barrels (66%).


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5530162 - 11/20/12 01:24 PM

Jon,

Quote:

Quote:

My Baader Zoom is good enough for 90% of what's up there. Optics or objects? I'm more concerned with the objects.

For the big stuff, I switch to my wide field ES eyepieces. For really dim stuff, I might try a good ortho, XW or XO.

Mike




It all depends on your mind set... If one limits the objects to those that are visible with a 8-24mm zoom, then yeah... but that doesn't work for me.

Jon Isaacs




Now, did I say that I limit myself to objects that are visible with a 8-24mm zoom? In the very post that you quote here, I state that I will switch to other eyepieces if the object warrants it ... but only if the object warrants it. That's my whole point. I let the objects dictate my mind set, not the optics.

Mike


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5530219 - 11/20/12 01:45 PM

Quote:

Now, did I say that I limit myself to objects that are visible with a 8-24mm zoom? In the very post that you quote here, I state that I will switch to other eyepieces if the object warrants it ... but only if the object warrants it. That's my whole point. I let the objects dictate my mind set, not the optics.

Mike




You did say that 90% of the objects you view reasonable in an 8mm-24mm Zoom. 90% of the objects I view would not be optimal in an 8-24mm Zoom.

I don't mind swapping eyepieces, the night is long, there are many clear nights in a year and I am not in a hurry.

Jon


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5530378 - 11/20/12 03:00 PM

90% reasonable? Yes. 90% optimal? Maybe not. Objects, not optics, have higher priority for me.

There are not so many nights for me at a dark site! I'm always doing a cost/benefit analysis.


Mike


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Scott99]
      #5531753 - 11/21/12 09:17 AM

Quote:

The occasional anti-undercut thread is welcome and always entertaining!




Yes, it is kind of a pointless venting since TeleVue seems so intent on ignoring what the majority of their customers want in this matter.

Perhaps if a competitor (ES?) went smooth sides they would learn the error of their ways very quickly.


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Starman1
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Jeff Morgan]
      #5531867 - 11/21/12 10:19 AM

Every time I pull the Paracorr out of the focuser to put a filter on the bottom, I appreciate the smooth side and the easy slide out of the focuser.
Then I change the eyepiece in the Paracorr and start mumbling about compression rings and undercuts.
Put me down as a smooth side lover.

Edited by Starman1 (11/21/12 10:20 AM)


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Doug Culbertson
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5531912 - 11/21/12 10:40 AM

Quote:

Every time I pull the Paracorr out of the focuser to put a filter on the bottom, I appreciate the smooth side and the easy slide out of the focuser.
Then I change the eyepiece in the Paracorr and start mumbling about compression rings and undercuts.
Put me down as a smooth side lover.




+1 I keep thinking about taking every single compression ring out of my focusers, diagonals, and 1.25" adapters and replacing the screws with nylon screws. Fortunately, the 2" tube on my Moonlight has no compression ring, and uses a nylon setscrew. I like that.


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5532042 - 11/21/12 11:32 AM

When I asked about "compression rings" earlier, what I meant was the twist-lock type of adapter, such as this:

Baader Planetarium 2 Inch Deluxe Clicklock Eyepiece Extension

... or this:

Antares 2" Twist-Lock Eyepiece Adapter

... or this:

Orion 2" Precision Centering Extension Adapter

I like these twist-lock gizmos. Now these DO keep your eyepieces and such securely in the focuser. I'd like to see all undercuts done away with and instead twist-locks put on all focusers and any adapters which accept eyepieces and other accessories.

So do undercut eyepieces get hung up on these twist-lock fittings? If so, that's a real shame. More reason to hate the undercuts.

Being forced to retrofit nylon screws in focusers seems like a step backward to me.

Mike


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Sarkikos
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5532061 - 11/21/12 11:39 AM

My old-school Burgess Binoviewer came with nylon set screws. I was able to upgrade to twist-lock fittings. Much, much better! IME, the eyepieces are still easy to insert and remove. And there is a huge improvement in centering the eyepieces and ease in merging the images. Now I can bump the power up to 600x if I want! I don't want to do that very often, but if I do, I can enjoy a clean, merged image.

Mike


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Doug Culbertson
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Re: Who invented the barrel safety undercut? new [Re: Sarkikos]
      #5532230 - 11/21/12 12:59 PM

Quote:

When I asked about "compression rings" earlier, what I meant was the twist-lock type of adapter, such as this:

Baader Planetarium 2 Inch Deluxe Clicklock Eyepiece Extension

... or this:

Antares 2" Twist-Lock Eyepiece Adapter

... or this:

Orion 2" Precision Centering Extension Adapter

I like these twist-lock gizmos. Now these DO keep your eyepieces and such securely in the focuser. I'd like to see all undercuts done away with and instead twist-locks put on all focusers and any adapters which accept eyepieces and other accessories.

So do undercut eyepieces get hung up on these twist-lock fittings? If so, that's a real shame. More reason to hate the undercuts.

Being forced to retrofit nylon screws in focusers seems like a step backward to me.

Mike




Mike,

We are referring to the standard ubiquitous flexible brass compression ring that tightens when you turn the setscrew. you know, the ones that come standard on almost every focuser and diagonal in existence today.

I don't believe that the twist lock type of adapter that you are talking about will hang up on the undercuts. I have one 1.25" adapter that I bought from someone on CN a couple of years ago, and it's a collette type that tightens on the eyepiece when you turn the top; sort of like the twist locks. I have no trouble when using an eyepiece with this adapter.

FWIW, I have ordered a 2" Baader Click-Lock adapter for my EON 120, to replace the compression ring adapter that comes on the focuser drawtube. Hopefully it will be an easy replacement, and will end that dreaded star diagonal flip when slewing the mount.


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