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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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coutleef
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5677797 - 02/13/13 02:38 PM

Quote:

Compared to cameras, Hyperions are Kodak, Pentax are, well, Pentax.......




that sums it up nicely.

in a f/10 sct. i found that the hyperion ( or stratus) was very close to naglers or even an ethos. many use the hyperions with success in sct. once your scope becomes faster or once you want to get the best view wth very small detail, suddenly the price increases significantly.. that is life,

for a designated planetary EP i would prefer a UO ortho to the hyperion. but that is very personnal

i agree with others that the ES eps are a good value for the price


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sage
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5677804 - 02/13/13 02:43 PM

well i do get nice images on the planets but will the pentaxes show even better.sublte details on venus i can see real good.but mercury is rare.i have seen some peculiar things in the past so im thinking a few high power pentaxes xw might just be better?

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sage
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5677809 - 02/13/13 02:47 PM

yes,they are fine but i think bill p convinced me.i get 1 or two high power ones an let you all know,but im sure most know this already.ive seen in the past many pecularities on venus but mercury is rare a few shadings from time to time an again a pentax ill try.

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Astrojensen
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: ROBERT FREE]
      #5677825 - 02/13/13 03:00 PM

I personally doubt that the Pentax XW's will show more planetary detail than the excellent Celestron Ultimas. Mercury is a real nasty lil' bugger and a C8 will struggle with it visually. I'd say your chances of seeing more on Mercury (or any planet) by getting different eyepieces is marginal at best. If you want drastic improvement, invest the same amount of money in a 12" newtonian and you'll be blown away by the huge difference. I know I was. My 12" Meade Lightbridge, with its astigmatic secondary and slightly overcorrected primary totally smokes my excellent C8 on planetary details. Well, it smokes it on anything, actually.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Astrojensen
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5677829 - 02/13/13 03:02 PM

Except double stars in summer. Here I've yet to see anything better than my C8. But the new secondary for the 12" might change that.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Eigen]
      #5677862 - 02/13/13 03:25 PM

Quote:

In my opinion, with the prices of the ES82 line, the Hyperion is basically redundant. The Hyperion is a very decent eyepiece but the XW is a different league.




I think the advantage of the Hyperion is the long eye relief... If you wear glasses while observing, eye relief is near the top of the list. I don't wear glasses while observing.

Jon


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Eigen
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Reged: 07/26/12

Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5677875 - 02/13/13 03:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In my opinion, with the prices of the ES82 line, the Hyperion is basically redundant. The Hyperion is a very decent eyepiece but the XW is a different league.




I think the advantage of the Hyperion is the long eye relief... If you wear glasses while observing, eye relief is near the top of the list. I don't wear glasses while observing.

Jon




Agreed.

Like you I am still lucky and have no need for glasses yet, makes me quick to forget the importance of ER to observers that require glasses for observing.


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LivingNDixie
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5677883 - 02/13/13 03:38 PM

The Hyperions are clones of the old Vixen LVW line. The ES 82 eyepieces are more in line with the Meade 5000 series. The Pentax XW is a totally different animal and a outstanding eyepiece series.

I would love to compare the ES82 degree eyepieces to the older Type 1 and Type 2 Naglers.


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Starman1
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5677888 - 02/13/13 03:41 PM

Quote:

I personally doubt that the Pentax XW's will show more planetary detail than the excellent Celestron Ultimas. Mercury is a real nasty lil' bugger and a C8 will struggle with it visually. I'd say your chances of seeing more on Mercury (or any planet) by getting different eyepieces is marginal at best. If you want drastic improvement, invest the same amount of money in a 12" newtonian and you'll be blown away by the huge difference. I know I was. My 12" Meade Lightbridge, with its astigmatic secondary and slightly overcorrected primary totally smokes my excellent C8 on planetary details. Well, it smokes it on anything, actually.
Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




Alas, the Celestron Ultimas are long-discontinued and only available on the used market. In the absence of a Celestron, the other labels under which the same eyepieces were sold will also do:
Omcon Ultima
Tuthill Super Plossl
Meade Series 4000 Super plossl (pre-1994, Japanese)
Antares Elite
Baader Eudiascopic
Orion Ultrascopic
Takahashi LE
Parks Gold Series

There are a lot of nice eyepieces out there with 45-60 degree fields that are still in production. It's when you get to 65-72 degrees that the eyepieces start separating into tiers.

I'm nearly done revising my Buyer's Guide to Eyepieces, and it's amazing, but it seems like almost 50% of available eyepieces in 2009 have disappeared by 2013. I think Jing Hua (Explore Scientific) is largely to blame because they have offered great eyepieces for less.
I've also seen an increase in offerings from Long Perng and GSO from Taiwan under other labels.

Where Mercury is concerned, the eyepiece is really of very little importance. The things that matter most are:
--extremely good seeing conditions. Without this, Mercury is a blob in all scopes.
--high clarity in the low-angle atmosphere. Low contrast features will never be visible if the atmosphere has a high extinction factor.
--complete lack of chromatic aberration in the instrument. The atmosphere will add chromatic smearing. You don't want the scope to add any.
--an elongation that allows Mercury to get farther from the horizon. There is a famous story that Copernicus never saw Mercury in his home in Padua, Italy because of coal smoke and obscured horizons. So elongation is critical. Below 10 degrees, no planet is decently viewed.


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Starman1]
      #5677921 - 02/13/13 04:04 PM

Quote:

I personally doubt that the Pentax XW's will show more planetary detail than the excellent Celestron Ultimas.

Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




I respectfully disagree. When I picked up my first Pentax XW, I immediately noticed more detail in the bands of Jupiter. The glass in the XW's is polished extremely well and has excellent coatings. Internal baffling in them is incredible also. You can see it when you look in the XW from the top.

The attention to detail in these are top notch. In checking the bottoms of these eyepiece, the same attention to detail is there as well.

Cheers,


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Astrojensen
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Starman1]
      #5677926 - 02/13/13 04:06 PM

Quote:

There is a famous story that Copernicus never saw Mercury in his home in Padua, Italy because of coal smoke and obscured horizons.




Copernicus spent several years in Padua, Bologne and Rome, but he lived most of his life in Thorn and later Warmia in Poland. He began his astronomical studies while still a young man in Poland.

Northern Poland is about 54° northern latitude. I am at 55° N and have rarely seen Mercury with the naked eye. You definitely need to know where to look and have weather on your side. But then it's not difficult to see and that Copernicus should never have seen it, due to poor conditions is probably a myth, unless he really didn't spend much effort to see it. He could have seen it easily, if he wanted.

Coal was not yet used commonly for heating in medieval times, and was mostly unknown in Europe, except England, but peat was widely used. And wood, of course.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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Astrojensen
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5677936 - 02/13/13 04:12 PM

Quote:

I respectfully disagree. When I picked up my first Pentax XW, I immediately noticed more detail in the bands of Jupiter. The glass in the XW's is polished extremely well and has excellent coatings. Internal baffling in them is incredible also. You can see it when you look in the XW from the top.

The attention to detail in these are top notch. In checking the bottoms of these eyepiece, the same attention to detail is there as well.




That's great to know! I have tried the Baader Eudiascopics myself (same as Celestron Ultimas) on the planets, but only taken a brief look through the Pentax XWs and only on deep-sky. I was impressed with the Baaders, so that the XWs better them is impressive! My brief impression with the XWs was good, but there was nothing about the view that seemed extraordinary. Sometimes, we just get the wrong impressions, it seems.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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BillP
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: ROBERT FREE]
      #5678001 - 02/13/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

ive seen in the past many pecularities on venus but mercury is rare a few shadings from time to time




FWIW, I find Venus not all that difficult to observe cloud formations on. As long as it is positioned well then can be easily achieved. Mercury on the other hand I have not had much luck on. Positioning above the horizon, like Don mentions, probably the biggest factor. However, if I wanted to give it a serious try, I think I might look to some varied filtration rather than an eyepiece as a first choice. Certainly a less expensive route to begin with. Orange (W21, W23A) and yellow (W15) might be best bets to try to tease out some of the features.


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Starman1
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: BillP]
      #5678089 - 02/13/13 05:56 PM

Color filters definitely improve the view of Mercury, both by filtering out the brightness of the sky in which the planet is usually viewed, and by reducing the chromatic issues with the lower atmospheric viewing of the planet.
My records show:
Effective at sharpening: #25 red, #23A red-orange
Effective at seeing albedo markings: #15 deep yellow, #12 Yellow
The "in-between" filter: #21 orange.


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Starman1]
      #5678730 - 02/14/13 02:45 AM

This is kind of related to the original post in a way. Last night I tried out a 3.5mm Stratus I just picked up and I did a head to head against my 7mm XW + 2x GSO ED barlow.

Verdict: The 7mm XW + 2x GSO ED barlow spanked the 3.5mm Stratus even way off axis! The image of Jupiter in the 7mm XW & barlow near the field stop was sharper than the 3.5mm Orion Stratus ON AXIS!

Save your pennies kiddies, grab yourself a few Pentax XW's while supplies on the used market lasts.



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iluxo
sage


Reged: 09/23/08

No they do not... new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5678839 - 02/14/13 06:39 AM

After several bake-offs at observing nights over 40 years, the conclusions I came to are from best to worst. Price is not considered.

1. Pentax XW;
2. Nikon NAV, various Naglers;
3. TV Panoptic, Vixen LVW, TV Delos. The LVW seem to be neutral in colour whereas the Delos seem warmer, but otherwise these three types are very optically similar in all respects for similar focal lengths. The Vixen LVW range is almost unique in spanning the entire useful focal range from 5 to 42mm, parfocal, and their weights are close enough to avoid the need to rebalance most scopes.
4. The Vixen LV's and NLV's I put at #4 primarily for their smaller field of view compared to those at #3, though are otherwise similar.
5. Baader Hyperion, distinctly inferior to LVW, Panoptic or Delos. Some Hyperions have a thread around the eye lens to fit a camera adapter ring for digiscoping, potentially very useful to some.
6. Orion Stratus, worse again;
7. Various Konig, Plossl, Erfle types, mostly these designs date from the1980's and 90's though these original designs are much older;
8. RKE, a budget 3 element eyepiece, good value and very good considering it uses just 3 elements;
9. Various Kellner, Meade MA (really narrow FoV)
10. Huygens, Ramsden

As for orthoscopics, their rank depends a lot on quality. Some older 1980's examples deserve to be thrown in at #6, but the Zeiss orthoscopics belong up at #3. The Japanese KK orthos likewise belong at #3 or #4..

At the risk of insulting some, I'd have to say the 2 Masuyama's I've seen were inferior to the Vixen LV's.

I haven't tried ES eyepieces sufficiently to figure out how they compare.

Edited by iluxo (02/14/13 06:59 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5678857 - 02/14/13 06:53 AM

Quote:

Except double stars in summer. Here I've yet to see anything better than my C8. But the new secondary for the 12" might change that.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark




What sort of fan do you have for your Lightbridge? Also, truss scopes have issues with body heat passing through the shroud... And then warm hands on the OTA cause tube currents...

Pinched secondaries on GSOs scopes are relatively common but I think the Lightbridge uses a glued secondary??

On the original topic: In the big picture, there is little difference between any two eyepieces in terms of on-axis performance. Plossl, Hyperion, Zeiss Aspheric ortho, they are all about the same, in the big picture.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (02/14/13 06:55 AM)


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Damo636
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5678870 - 02/14/13 07:09 AM

Quote:




Save your pennies kiddies, grab yourself a few Pentax XW's while supplies on the used market lasts.





I did save my pennies and have just added the 5mm to the stall


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ROBERT FREE
sage
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Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: Damo636]
      #5678971 - 02/14/13 08:52 AM

i observe mercury an venus in broad daylite,an i have no problems with them as one does looking in twilite.a world of difference but like i said its been years an there are so many ep's out there but thx for the updates,an ill pick up 1 2 pentax.clear skies all.

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HTJ
journeyman


Reged: 10/12/12

Loc: Denmark
Re: DO BAADER HYERIONS COME CLOSE TO PENTAX XW new [Re: ROBERT FREE]
      #5679788 - 02/14/13 03:55 PM

Hi

I own XW7, XW10, Hyperion 17, and previously the Hyperion 8 mm.

In slow scopes, say f/9 and slower the Hyperions do pretty well, but they never get really good edge performance. They don't reach the sharpness and contrast levels of the XWs, but in slow scopes I find them acceptable. On f/6 and faster, don't bother with the Hyperions.

The XWs are truly great. Wide field, sharp, high contrast, no flaring, and great ergonomics. They make the viewing pleasant and relaxed. The XWs are for life.

I reguarly use my Hyperion 17 in my 100ED. It produces a good magnification for some DSO and creates an exit pupil just under 2 mm, which seems to work very well for me, and gives me a high perceived contrast. I also have the BGO18, which is sharper and probably has slightly higher throughput and contrast. But the Hyperion 17 has better ergonomics which means more eyepiece time. The wider field means less fiddling with my manual mount, which means even more eyepiece time.

I may get a LVW 17 or Delos 17 to replace the Hyperion 17 some time, but I am no rush for it (and I like buying eyepieces :-)).

With regards to the Hyperions and the ES82 line: I think the Hyperion has way better ergonomics than the ES82. However the ES82 is optically superior in all other ways (I've only had the ES82 8.8 mm though).

/Henrik


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