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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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saptharishi
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Reged: 06/15/12

Loc: Bangalore, India
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5683165 - 02/16/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

True it may not be rare need for astronomical use, both this is not the sole use for an eyepiece.




I agree. Was saying it more from the point of view of astronomical use.


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5683251 - 02/16/13 11:09 AM

Quote:

The stewardess on the last flight I took said, as part of the preflight safety announcement: "In case of an unexpected water landing, those of you with Explore Scientific EPs in your carry-ons should use those for personal floatation devices. The rest of you will find a life vest under your seat..."





That warning always cracks me up. I figure if we hit the water at 400 mph in a couple of days we'll all be floating anyway.


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FirstSight
Duke of Deneb
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Reged: 12/26/05

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5683279 - 02/16/13 11:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The stewardess on the last flight I took said, as part of the preflight safety announcement: "In case of an unexpected water landing, those of you with Explore Scientific EPs in your carry-ons should use those for personal floatation devices. The rest of you will find a life vest under your seat..."





That warning always cracks me up. I figure if we hit the water at 400 mph in a couple of days we'll all be floating anyway.




I don't want to drift too far off-topic with this tangent, but on an actual Southwest Airlines Denver-to-Salt Lake City flight in January, the stewardess doing the preflight safety announcement quipped: "In case our flight unexpectedly turns into a cruise..." She didn't say anything about nitrogen-purged eyepieces being potential floatation devices, however.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5684685 - 02/17/13 06:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck




Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




Humm...

The reality is that many of the things that TeleVue introduced have been the "greatest thing since sliced bread." The Naglers transformed the eyepiece world and it was not long before Meade had copied them. Likewise with the TeleVue Widefields which were the predecessors to the Panoptic line. The Ethos line was soon copied. For the Newtonian owner, the Paracorr has transformed the what is possible. F/4 and now F/3 Newtonians could not exist they way they do without the Paracorr.

The reason those inexpensive and quite good Explore Scientific eyepieces exist is because TeleVue led the way. Meade and Explore Scientific certainly seemed to think the TeleVue innovations were the "greatest things since sliced bread."

There are probably advantages to sealed eyepieces for astronomy though they are not of earth shattering value. If the telescope one is using is waterproof and sealed, sealed eyepiece are highly desirable but even the Pentax eyepieces designed with spotting scopes in mind are more on the splash proof side. And too, if you look on the binocular forum they will point out that in the long run, unless one is using metal to metal seals like they do in the high vacuum systms, diffusion of the gases through the seals means they do not offer the protection one thinks they do...

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (02/17/13 06:45 AM)


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BillP
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5685129 - 02/17/13 12:30 PM

Quote:

On one occasion the morning after an observing session afflicted by extremely heavy dew, I noticed that one of my Naglers I had used had fogged up internally (I think it was my 13T6).




I had similar happen to me. Was out camping in Maryland and with a short tube Newt and eyepieces. Around 2am the evening air got moist enough that ALL eyepieces were dewed inside and out. The main mirror of the scope was still fine, although the scope was dripping wet on the tube from the dew. If I had a purged eyepiece I probably could have continued to view by simply wiping dry the external surfaces. But this stopped me dead in my tracks that evening.

When I used to hunt had similar issues with rifle scopes until I moved to a sealed and purged variety.

So IMO really depends more on your observing habit and location as to whether sealed and purged eyepieces for astronomy might be a necessary item or something useless for an observer. So not really about the eyepiece but about the observer. I for one am very glad that ES has innovated here and brought us sealed and purged optics at a reasonable price. While others have done it in the past, like the splashproof XWs, IMO ES has really been the innovator for this feature set.

But should TV do this? I don't think so because it is not their niche place in the market. Plus would make them look like followers which I'm sure they don't want. So doubt they ever will. And even if they did, would be a hard compete against the very much less expensive ES offerings, so don't think any sealing/purging addition would do anything for them other than raise their prices and more hurt rather than help their sales.

Edited by BillP (02/17/13 12:36 PM)


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Jim Romanski
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Reged: 01/02/05

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5685357 - 02/17/13 02:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




This. And other companies following the good example would be blamed for copying, lack of ingenuity (because they didn't do it first) and generally be laughed upon, because they didn't offer N2 purged waterproof eyepieces before TeleVue.



This is pure speculation and a bit presumptuous. Perhaps some vocal critics will feel this way but I would welcome inert gas purging if Televue decided to offer it. Itís just not high on my list of astronomical eyepiece qualities though.

Quote:

I surely don't see it as a sales gimmick. It's a genuinely useful feature in some situations and certain climes, for others, it's not an important thing, just as with so many other design parameters. Some are important to you, others not. Choose what you need.




It is a useful feature so I too would not call it a gimmick. That said ES has chosen to market and highlight this as an important featureÖjust look at their advertising.

Very clever on their part, clone your competitorís eyepiece yet offer a useful feature that they donít offer. Market it heavily on that feature and even make sure that the outside of the eyepiece mentions the feature. If you look at binoculars nitrogen purging isnít often a feature for astronomical binoculars but it is for high quality birding/terrestrial type binoculars. These are binoculars that are used in all kinds of weather conditions including rain. Most of the times the feature will be mentioned in the description of the binoculars but they donít usually advertise it on the outside of the instrument. Thatís the difference between a company like ES and say Zeiss who nitrogen purges many of their binoculars.


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Jeff Morgan
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Reged: 09/28/03

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5685397 - 02/17/13 03:04 PM

Quote:


There are probably advantages to sealed eyepieces for astronomy though they are not of earth shattering value.




Indeed, for that Amazon star party I was planning in 2026.

But for today, building for lighter weight would be far, far more useful. Swapping 2+ pound eyepieces in and out the focuser can be problematic for the owners of small and medium scopes.

Edited by Jeff Morgan (02/17/13 03:28 PM)


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BillP
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Reged: 11/26/06

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5685542 - 02/17/13 05:05 PM

Quote:

Thatís the difference between a company like ES and say Zeiss who nitrogen purges many of their binoculars.




I would not agree. Each company "chooses" to advertise on their wares what they feel is important to make their product distinctive in marketing. Zeiss plainly writes "T*" on the outside of many of their binoculars to advertise that they are multicoated with their patented process, which they feel makes them distinctive. Personally I find it a problem that Zeiss buries so deeply whether or not their binoculars are Nitrogen filled or not. So a weakness since this is a critical consideration for some of us with binoculars given the harsh conditions we put them through. So IMO Zeiss is not doing anything altruistic by not advertising as prominently their use of nitrogen in "some" of their binoculars since they do advertise other things on them. You have to admit though that nitrogen filling binoculars is quite a common thing so also a reason not to waste valuable product surface space with advertising this. Actually, I find it quite an advantage if vendors listed all the vital specs of a product on a label on them as I'm not apt to keep the box or the literature. So for me, it is an advantage when an eyepiece lists its coating types, glass types, sealing, gas fills, focal length, AFOV, ER as these are important stats about the product. Imagine an eyepiece lot listing the coating level it uses...after a few years out of production will be a common question people ask. So in the end, I think it is a positive move for the consumer to list on the eyepiece if it is special gas filled, etc. Wish my XWs listed their JIS and ER rating on them with the SMC and FL listings they currently carry.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5685561 - 02/17/13 05:16 PM

No. That was ES marketing.

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BillP
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Reged: 11/26/06

Loc: Vienna, VA
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5686167 - 02/17/13 11:14 PM

Quote:

No. That was ES marketing.




Don't understand the response. Point for me is that the "marketing" a company does IMO is immaterial to the product really. Marketing just makes things clearer or less clear and *all* companies (TV, Zeiss, ES, Celestron, Meade, etc.) both fail and succeed at their marketing in different ways. In the end, all the marketing tells one is what the marketing departments are thinking...which is generally quite a bit different from what the engineering departments are thinking...and of course both are a world apart from what the consumers are trying to find out

Edited by BillP (02/17/13 11:16 PM)


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jrbarnett
Eyepiece Hooligan
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Reged: 02/28/06

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5686846 - 02/18/13 11:40 AM

Why? Planning on leaving 'em out in the rain or using them as fish tank ornaments between sessions?

I can see if you were using your eyepieces in spotting scopes in mist and dew how waterproofing might matter. For astronomical eyepieces, though, I don't think waterproofing has much value.

Regards,

Jim


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saptharishi
super member


Reged: 06/15/12

Loc: Bangalore, India
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5687046 - 02/18/13 02:41 PM

Jim, I should have given a little background info rather than posting a message in Facebook style

Wanted to buy a 30-40mm EP. I currently have 17, 10, 6mm ethos and only these three EPs. My natural choice is 31mm Nagler. But then I saw ES having a similar one at half the price and also claimed waterproof. I am such a fan of TV eye pieces, that I was wondering, if TV has not done it then there is something fishy about it

I really liked the idea of using EP as fish tank ornament BTW, how did you know that I have an aquarium

Edited by saptharishi (02/19/13 12:56 PM)


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Joe Bergeron
Vendor - Space Art


Reged: 11/10/03

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5687780 - 02/18/13 08:47 PM

Yeah. The primary advantage of eyepiece waterproofing is that it allows ES to differentiate their products from the competing eyepieces they copied.

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rockethead26
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Reged: 10/21/09

Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Joe Bergeron]
      #5687871 - 02/18/13 09:41 PM

Quote:

Yeah. The primary advantage of eyepiece waterproofing is that it allows ES to differentiate their products from the competing eyepieces they copied.




This debate has happened way too many times on this forum. It has become tiring.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5687909 - 02/18/13 09:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The only real advantage is to prevent internal fogging.




Another advantage to waterproofing is when you drop your eyepiece into water. The waterproof one will not be ruined.




That's happened many times to me while out observing. No, wait...

I can see it being very important for spotting scopes, I use my Leica in the rain, carry it through swamps, etc. On the astro side I observe in an area that has horrible dew problems and have never had moisture inside a non-waterproof eyepiece.




I observe in heavy dew/ice, and never had an issue with eyepieces yet; but my 25x100 binos did get dew on the inside of one objective , and it took me a month with flower drying pellets to get the dew out . Count me as a waterproof believer.


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5687923 - 02/18/13 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck




Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




Humm...

The reality is that many of the things that TeleVue introduced have been the "greatest thing since sliced bread." The Naglers transformed the eyepiece world and it was not long before Meade had copied them. Likewise with the TeleVue Widefields which were the predecessors to the Panoptic line. The Ethos line was soon copied. For the Newtonian owner, the Paracorr has transformed the what is possible. F/4 and now F/3 Newtonians could not exist they way they do without the Paracorr.

The reason those inexpensive and quite good Explore Scientific eyepieces exist is because TeleVue led the way. Meade and Explore Scientific certainly seemed to think the TeleVue innovations were the "greatest things since sliced bread."

There are probably advantages to sealed eyepieces for astronomy though they are not of earth shattering value. If the telescope one is using is waterproof and sealed, sealed eyepiece are highly desirable but even the Pentax eyepieces designed with spotting scopes in mind are more on the splash proof side. And too, if you look on the binocular forum they will point out that in the long run, unless one is using metal to metal seals like they do in the high vacuum systms, diffusion of the gases through the seals means they do not offer the protection one thinks they do...

Jon




Who was the first to announce/put out 20mm 100 AFOV, 25mm 100 AFOV, 9mm 120 AFOV, and soon 3" 30mm 100 AFOV (and hopfully 3" 40m 100 AFOV, 50mm 82 AFOV, 60mm 70 AFOV)


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5687937 - 02/18/13 10:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No. That was ES marketing.




Don't understand the response. Point for me is that the "marketing" a company does IMO is immaterial to the product really. Marketing just makes things clearer or less clear and *all* companies (TV, Zeiss, ES, Celestron, Meade, etc.) both fail and succeed at their marketing in different ways. In the end, all the marketing tells one is what the marketing departments are thinking...which is generally quite a bit different from what the engineering departments are thinking...and of course both are a world apart from what the consumers are trying to find out




Marketing sometimes is differenterating your product from others. What makes you stick out from the others.


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csrlice12
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Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5688476 - 02/19/13 08:43 AM

"Marketing sometimes is differenterating your product from others. What makes you stick out from the others."

In astronomy, Marketing is that time period between the time you hit the "send" button and the arrival of the eyepiece.....apparently, we LOVE marketing.........


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johnnyha
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5688650 - 02/19/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

My natural choice is 31mm angler. But then I saw ES having a similar one at half the price and also claimed waterproof. I am such a fan of TV eye pieces, that I was wondering, if TV has not done it then there is something fishy about it




There is certainly something "fishy" about a 31mm Angler!


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saptharishi
super member


Reged: 06/15/12

Loc: Bangalore, India
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5688868 - 02/19/13 12:58 PM

iPad and its auto-correction!!!! I corrected it

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