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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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saptharishi
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Reged: 06/15/12

Loc: Bangalore, India
Are Televue EPs water proof?
      #5681336 - 02/15/13 12:24 PM

I am wondering why televue have not made their EPs water proof? Even their premium lines. Are there any practical disadvantages? Or impact on performance?

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csrlice12
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5681497 - 02/15/13 01:26 PM

Without the purging, they dont float, they just drop to the bottom of the bathtub till they drown...where they become eyepieces for Televue's new OceanScope.......

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Jim Romanski
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5681686 - 02/15/13 02:39 PM

The only real advantage is to prevent internal fogging. I have seen some posts here on CN from observers in very humid areas that have had this happen. I've never had an eyepiece fog up on the inside and I've been observing for over 25 years.

Waterproofing is at the very bottom of my list of important qualities for an eyepiece. The only thing less important to me is whether an eyepiece is perceived to have a "cool" or "warm" color tone.


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johnnyha
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5681773 - 02/15/13 03:23 PM

Quote:

The only real advantage is to prevent internal fogging.




Another advantage to waterproofing is when you drop your eyepiece into water. The waterproof one will not be ruined.


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core
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5681827 - 02/15/13 03:48 PM

Something that most won't have to deal with is the possibility of fungal growth (think high humidity tropical). I had a couple of TV smoothies from 2 decades back that are affected, half dozen SLR lenses (bigger issue as they as move air when focusing or zooming), polar scopes, numerous binos, and a C8. You could of course minimize the problem with dry cabinets, but a purged and sealed unit would help a long ways.

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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5681840 - 02/15/13 03:54 PM

Yep, 30 years and no issues with eyepieces of any make. Including a WWII surplus eyepiece, and no telling where it had been.

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Paul G
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5681954 - 02/15/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The only real advantage is to prevent internal fogging.




Another advantage to waterproofing is when you drop your eyepiece into water. The waterproof one will not be ruined.




That's happened many times to me while out observing. No, wait...

I can see it being very important for spotting scopes, I use my Leica in the rain, carry it through swamps, etc. On the astro side I observe in an area that has horrible dew problems and have never had moisture inside a non-waterproof eyepiece.


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Lt 26
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5682123 - 02/15/13 06:35 PM

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck


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The Ardent
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Lt 26]
      #5682262 - 02/15/13 08:02 PM

Televue eyepieces are fine instruments valued by discriminating observers who treat their possessions with care. Who drops their Canon or SBIG camera in water?

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astro_baby
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 06/17/08

Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: The Ardent]
      #5682285 - 02/15/13 08:26 PM

Reduces risk of moisture ingress when cleaning

Bit of a safety for damp consitions

Cuts out internal fogging

Refuces risk of fungal growth

When you live in the UK and its wet a lot, rain can come out of nowhere, it can be humid, damp, foggy its no bad thang go have a bit of extra help.

Pentax XWs arent waerproof but they are weatherproof as well.

I admit its not the top priority when choosing an EP but it soes seem a sensible thing.


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saptharishi
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Reged: 06/15/12

Loc: Bangalore, India
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: astro_baby]
      #5682408 - 02/15/13 09:38 PM

Right. I too felt that there may not be any 'must have' advantages of waterproofing EPs, given that they are always used with scopes that are not. Binos... Yes, it is required.

Accidentally dropping the EP in water may not be a strong enough for waterproofing

However, it can be a 'nice to have' in at least in higher priced EPs to avoid internal fogging. Again that will increase the cost of already costly EPs.

From the replies I can understand that there no disadvantages ( like reduced performance) due to waterproofing.


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Doug Culbertson
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Lt 26]
      #5682423 - 02/15/13 09:49 PM

Quote:

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck




Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.


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FirstSight
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5682433 - 02/15/13 09:53 PM

The stewardess on the last flight I took said, as part of the preflight safety announcement: "In case of an unexpected water landing, those of you with Explore Scientific EPs in your carry-ons should use those for personal floatation devices. The rest of you will find a life vest under your seat..."


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saptharishi
super member


Reged: 06/15/12

Loc: Bangalore, India
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5682557 - 02/15/13 11:12 PM

Ha..ha..ha.... That was a good one. I will use the life vest

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meteorite

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5682711 - 02/16/13 01:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck




Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




Bingo!!!


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Astrojensen
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5682785 - 02/16/13 03:17 AM

Quote:

Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




This. And other companies following the good example would be blamed for copying, lack of ingenuity (because they didn't do it first) and generally be laughed upon, because they didn't offer N2 purged waterproof eyepieces before TeleVue.

I surely don't see it as a sales gimmick. It's a genuinely useful feature in some situations and certain climes, for others, it's not an important thing, just as with so many other design parameters. Some are important to you, others not. Choose what you need.


Clear skies!
Thomas, Denmark


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FirstSight
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5682823 - 02/16/13 04:49 AM

On one occasion the morning after an observing session afflicted by extremely heavy dew, I noticed that one of my Naglers I had used had fogged up internally (I think it was my 13T6). I simply unscrewed the lower barrel half from the upper black anodized aluminum half, gently dabbed with an optical cloth, and then let the respective halves finish drying a few minutes and screwed the two halves back together. You can safely use this same approach with all the T4s, T5s, and T6s, since the respective exposed lenses in each respective half are firmly held by retaining rings (and hence not at risk of coming loose or falling out), and these are the lens surfaces most likely vulnerable to internal fogging.

However, I cannot say whether this same tactic is as safely workable with either Panoptics or Ethos; I only have one Panoptics (24mm) which hasn't ever fogged up internally, and neither have any of my Ethos. What I can say is that I have an all-Televue eyepiece collection, and there have been plenty of nights when I've come home from a dew-prone session at our club's observing site with every single eyepiece I've used dripping-wet with moisture, and I've only ever had the one aforementioned instance of internal fogging. Whenever my EPs come home at all damp, I lay them out on the shelves of my study, both endcaps off, and let them (and their respective bolt cases) dry out overnight. I'll use the endcaps to prop them up so the bottom lens is open to air circulation.

I'm not here saying that ES's "nitrogen purged" internals are not a nice innovation, but rather that internal fogging from Televue's has proven (so far) to be a rather rare, and safely, easily manageable issue, and I observe in an often moist, dew-prone climate.


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Kutno
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5683039 - 02/16/13 09:30 AM

Quote:

I too felt that there may not be any 'must have' advantages of waterproofing EPs, given that they are always used with scopes that are not.




Good point!


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Kutno
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5683101 - 02/16/13 10:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The only real advantage is to prevent internal fogging.




Another advantage to waterproofing is when you drop your eyepiece into water. The waterproof one will not be ruined.




I wonder if they make something in the two ounce range, so I can use it as a sinker, the next time I go fishing for stripers?


All the best, Johnny!


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BillP
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Kutno]
      #5683144 - 02/16/13 10:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I too felt that there may not be any 'must have' advantages of waterproofing EPs, given that they are always used with scopes that are not.




Good point!




I don't think this is true in all circumstances. For the many birders out there, especially those that enjoy their hobby in the field in a variety of weather conditions, there are a host of spotting scopes that are waterproof that use 1.25" eyepieces. So having the eyepiece component also waterproof is desired. In addition to birding, this also goes for the many shooters who use a target spotting scope and shoot in very humid or rain/high humidity conditions. So the foresight to make your eyepiece waterproof simply opens up their potential use in other hobbies where this feature is very much desired and a real plus. True it may be rare need for astronomical use, both this is not the sole use for an eyepiece.

Edited by BillP (02/16/13 01:05 PM)


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saptharishi
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Reged: 06/15/12

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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5683165 - 02/16/13 10:33 AM

Quote:

True it may not be rare need for astronomical use, both this is not the sole use for an eyepiece.




I agree. Was saying it more from the point of view of astronomical use.


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Paul G
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5683251 - 02/16/13 11:09 AM

Quote:

The stewardess on the last flight I took said, as part of the preflight safety announcement: "In case of an unexpected water landing, those of you with Explore Scientific EPs in your carry-ons should use those for personal floatation devices. The rest of you will find a life vest under your seat..."





That warning always cracks me up. I figure if we hit the water at 400 mph in a couple of days we'll all be floating anyway.


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FirstSight
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5683279 - 02/16/13 11:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The stewardess on the last flight I took said, as part of the preflight safety announcement: "In case of an unexpected water landing, those of you with Explore Scientific EPs in your carry-ons should use those for personal floatation devices. The rest of you will find a life vest under your seat..."





That warning always cracks me up. I figure if we hit the water at 400 mph in a couple of days we'll all be floating anyway.




I don't want to drift too far off-topic with this tangent, but on an actual Southwest Airlines Denver-to-Salt Lake City flight in January, the stewardess doing the preflight safety announcement quipped: "In case our flight unexpectedly turns into a cruise..." She didn't say anything about nitrogen-purged eyepieces being potential floatation devices, however.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Doug Culbertson]
      #5684685 - 02/17/13 06:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck




Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




Humm...

The reality is that many of the things that TeleVue introduced have been the "greatest thing since sliced bread." The Naglers transformed the eyepiece world and it was not long before Meade had copied them. Likewise with the TeleVue Widefields which were the predecessors to the Panoptic line. The Ethos line was soon copied. For the Newtonian owner, the Paracorr has transformed the what is possible. F/4 and now F/3 Newtonians could not exist they way they do without the Paracorr.

The reason those inexpensive and quite good Explore Scientific eyepieces exist is because TeleVue led the way. Meade and Explore Scientific certainly seemed to think the TeleVue innovations were the "greatest things since sliced bread."

There are probably advantages to sealed eyepieces for astronomy though they are not of earth shattering value. If the telescope one is using is waterproof and sealed, sealed eyepiece are highly desirable but even the Pentax eyepieces designed with spotting scopes in mind are more on the splash proof side. And too, if you look on the binocular forum they will point out that in the long run, unless one is using metal to metal seals like they do in the high vacuum systms, diffusion of the gases through the seals means they do not offer the protection one thinks they do...

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (02/17/13 06:45 AM)


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BillP
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: FirstSight]
      #5685129 - 02/17/13 12:30 PM

Quote:

On one occasion the morning after an observing session afflicted by extremely heavy dew, I noticed that one of my Naglers I had used had fogged up internally (I think it was my 13T6).




I had similar happen to me. Was out camping in Maryland and with a short tube Newt and eyepieces. Around 2am the evening air got moist enough that ALL eyepieces were dewed inside and out. The main mirror of the scope was still fine, although the scope was dripping wet on the tube from the dew. If I had a purged eyepiece I probably could have continued to view by simply wiping dry the external surfaces. But this stopped me dead in my tracks that evening.

When I used to hunt had similar issues with rifle scopes until I moved to a sealed and purged variety.

So IMO really depends more on your observing habit and location as to whether sealed and purged eyepieces for astronomy might be a necessary item or something useless for an observer. So not really about the eyepiece but about the observer. I for one am very glad that ES has innovated here and brought us sealed and purged optics at a reasonable price. While others have done it in the past, like the splashproof XWs, IMO ES has really been the innovator for this feature set.

But should TV do this? I don't think so because it is not their niche place in the market. Plus would make them look like followers which I'm sure they don't want. So doubt they ever will. And even if they did, would be a hard compete against the very much less expensive ES offerings, so don't think any sealing/purging addition would do anything for them other than raise their prices and more hurt rather than help their sales.

Edited by BillP (02/17/13 12:36 PM)


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Jim Romanski
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Astrojensen]
      #5685357 - 02/17/13 02:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




This. And other companies following the good example would be blamed for copying, lack of ingenuity (because they didn't do it first) and generally be laughed upon, because they didn't offer N2 purged waterproof eyepieces before TeleVue.



This is pure speculation and a bit presumptuous. Perhaps some vocal critics will feel this way but I would welcome inert gas purging if Televue decided to offer it. Itís just not high on my list of astronomical eyepiece qualities though.

Quote:

I surely don't see it as a sales gimmick. It's a genuinely useful feature in some situations and certain climes, for others, it's not an important thing, just as with so many other design parameters. Some are important to you, others not. Choose what you need.




It is a useful feature so I too would not call it a gimmick. That said ES has chosen to market and highlight this as an important featureÖjust look at their advertising.

Very clever on their part, clone your competitorís eyepiece yet offer a useful feature that they donít offer. Market it heavily on that feature and even make sure that the outside of the eyepiece mentions the feature. If you look at binoculars nitrogen purging isnít often a feature for astronomical binoculars but it is for high quality birding/terrestrial type binoculars. These are binoculars that are used in all kinds of weather conditions including rain. Most of the times the feature will be mentioned in the description of the binoculars but they donít usually advertise it on the outside of the instrument. Thatís the difference between a company like ES and say Zeiss who nitrogen purges many of their binoculars.


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Jeff Morgan
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5685397 - 02/17/13 03:04 PM

Quote:


There are probably advantages to sealed eyepieces for astronomy though they are not of earth shattering value.




Indeed, for that Amazon star party I was planning in 2026.

But for today, building for lighter weight would be far, far more useful. Swapping 2+ pound eyepieces in and out the focuser can be problematic for the owners of small and medium scopes.

Edited by Jeff Morgan (02/17/13 03:28 PM)


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BillP
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jim Romanski]
      #5685542 - 02/17/13 05:05 PM

Quote:

Thatís the difference between a company like ES and say Zeiss who nitrogen purges many of their binoculars.




I would not agree. Each company "chooses" to advertise on their wares what they feel is important to make their product distinctive in marketing. Zeiss plainly writes "T*" on the outside of many of their binoculars to advertise that they are multicoated with their patented process, which they feel makes them distinctive. Personally I find it a problem that Zeiss buries so deeply whether or not their binoculars are Nitrogen filled or not. So a weakness since this is a critical consideration for some of us with binoculars given the harsh conditions we put them through. So IMO Zeiss is not doing anything altruistic by not advertising as prominently their use of nitrogen in "some" of their binoculars since they do advertise other things on them. You have to admit though that nitrogen filling binoculars is quite a common thing so also a reason not to waste valuable product surface space with advertising this. Actually, I find it quite an advantage if vendors listed all the vital specs of a product on a label on them as I'm not apt to keep the box or the literature. So for me, it is an advantage when an eyepiece lists its coating types, glass types, sealing, gas fills, focal length, AFOV, ER as these are important stats about the product. Imagine an eyepiece lot listing the coating level it uses...after a few years out of production will be a common question people ask. So in the end, I think it is a positive move for the consumer to list on the eyepiece if it is special gas filled, etc. Wish my XWs listed their JIS and ER rating on them with the SMC and FL listings they currently carry.


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faackanders2
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5685561 - 02/17/13 05:16 PM

No. That was ES marketing.

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BillP
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5686167 - 02/17/13 11:14 PM

Quote:

No. That was ES marketing.




Don't understand the response. Point for me is that the "marketing" a company does IMO is immaterial to the product really. Marketing just makes things clearer or less clear and *all* companies (TV, Zeiss, ES, Celestron, Meade, etc.) both fail and succeed at their marketing in different ways. In the end, all the marketing tells one is what the marketing departments are thinking...which is generally quite a bit different from what the engineering departments are thinking...and of course both are a world apart from what the consumers are trying to find out

Edited by BillP (02/17/13 11:16 PM)


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jrbarnett
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5686846 - 02/18/13 11:40 AM

Why? Planning on leaving 'em out in the rain or using them as fish tank ornaments between sessions?

I can see if you were using your eyepieces in spotting scopes in mist and dew how waterproofing might matter. For astronomical eyepieces, though, I don't think waterproofing has much value.

Regards,

Jim


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saptharishi
super member


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Loc: Bangalore, India
Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5687046 - 02/18/13 02:41 PM

Jim, I should have given a little background info rather than posting a message in Facebook style

Wanted to buy a 30-40mm EP. I currently have 17, 10, 6mm ethos and only these three EPs. My natural choice is 31mm Nagler. But then I saw ES having a similar one at half the price and also claimed waterproof. I am such a fan of TV eye pieces, that I was wondering, if TV has not done it then there is something fishy about it

I really liked the idea of using EP as fish tank ornament BTW, how did you know that I have an aquarium

Edited by saptharishi (02/19/13 12:56 PM)


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Joe Bergeron
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5687780 - 02/18/13 08:47 PM

Yeah. The primary advantage of eyepiece waterproofing is that it allows ES to differentiate their products from the competing eyepieces they copied.

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rockethead26
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Joe Bergeron]
      #5687871 - 02/18/13 09:41 PM

Quote:

Yeah. The primary advantage of eyepiece waterproofing is that it allows ES to differentiate their products from the competing eyepieces they copied.




This debate has happened way too many times on this forum. It has become tiring.


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faackanders2
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5687909 - 02/18/13 09:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The only real advantage is to prevent internal fogging.




Another advantage to waterproofing is when you drop your eyepiece into water. The waterproof one will not be ruined.




That's happened many times to me while out observing. No, wait...

I can see it being very important for spotting scopes, I use my Leica in the rain, carry it through swamps, etc. On the astro side I observe in an area that has horrible dew problems and have never had moisture inside a non-waterproof eyepiece.




I observe in heavy dew/ice, and never had an issue with eyepieces yet; but my 25x100 binos did get dew on the inside of one objective , and it took me a month with flower drying pellets to get the dew out . Count me as a waterproof believer.


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faackanders2
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5687923 - 02/18/13 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My question has always been are the others waterproof. If so for how long. I think this is more of a gimmick. Don' t want no eyepieces that have been dunked in a tank first.

Dereck




Right, and if TV had introduced N2 purged eyepieces first, they would have been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.




Humm...

The reality is that many of the things that TeleVue introduced have been the "greatest thing since sliced bread." The Naglers transformed the eyepiece world and it was not long before Meade had copied them. Likewise with the TeleVue Widefields which were the predecessors to the Panoptic line. The Ethos line was soon copied. For the Newtonian owner, the Paracorr has transformed the what is possible. F/4 and now F/3 Newtonians could not exist they way they do without the Paracorr.

The reason those inexpensive and quite good Explore Scientific eyepieces exist is because TeleVue led the way. Meade and Explore Scientific certainly seemed to think the TeleVue innovations were the "greatest things since sliced bread."

There are probably advantages to sealed eyepieces for astronomy though they are not of earth shattering value. If the telescope one is using is waterproof and sealed, sealed eyepiece are highly desirable but even the Pentax eyepieces designed with spotting scopes in mind are more on the splash proof side. And too, if you look on the binocular forum they will point out that in the long run, unless one is using metal to metal seals like they do in the high vacuum systms, diffusion of the gases through the seals means they do not offer the protection one thinks they do...

Jon




Who was the first to announce/put out 20mm 100 AFOV, 25mm 100 AFOV, 9mm 120 AFOV, and soon 3" 30mm 100 AFOV (and hopfully 3" 40m 100 AFOV, 50mm 82 AFOV, 60mm 70 AFOV)


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faackanders2
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5687937 - 02/18/13 10:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No. That was ES marketing.




Don't understand the response. Point for me is that the "marketing" a company does IMO is immaterial to the product really. Marketing just makes things clearer or less clear and *all* companies (TV, Zeiss, ES, Celestron, Meade, etc.) both fail and succeed at their marketing in different ways. In the end, all the marketing tells one is what the marketing departments are thinking...which is generally quite a bit different from what the engineering departments are thinking...and of course both are a world apart from what the consumers are trying to find out




Marketing sometimes is differenterating your product from others. What makes you stick out from the others.


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csrlice12
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5688476 - 02/19/13 08:43 AM

"Marketing sometimes is differenterating your product from others. What makes you stick out from the others."

In astronomy, Marketing is that time period between the time you hit the "send" button and the arrival of the eyepiece.....apparently, we LOVE marketing.........


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johnnyha
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5688650 - 02/19/13 10:55 AM

Quote:

My natural choice is 31mm angler. But then I saw ES having a similar one at half the price and also claimed waterproof. I am such a fan of TV eye pieces, that I was wondering, if TV has not done it then there is something fishy about it




There is certainly something "fishy" about a 31mm Angler!


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saptharishi
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5688868 - 02/19/13 12:58 PM

iPad and its auto-correction!!!! I corrected it

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csrlice12
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: saptharishi]
      #5688882 - 02/19/13 01:02 PM

I donno, a fishing pole and a telescope, sounds like two hobbies I could combine pretty easily, gotta have something to do waiting for the sun to go down......

"Give a man a fish, and he will eat today; teach a man to fish, and he'll spend the whole summer in a boat drinking beer......"

Edited by csrlice12 (02/19/13 01:05 PM)


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Starman1
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5689109 - 02/19/13 03:35 PM

With semi-permeable seals, Nitrogen-filled will stay Nitrogen-filled a lot longer than Argon-filled will stay Argon-filled. The partial pressure of gases inside and outside the chamber will assure a faster leak rate with Argon.
But even seals that do not keep out a mixing of gases over time may keep out water vapor, and that is the salient reason for the seals in the first place.


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bremms
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5689237 - 02/19/13 04:36 PM

You are correct Don. That is a very good explanation. Best thing is using a desiccant canister in the EP box. keeps them in a dry atmosphere.

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turtle86
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: bremms]
      #5689267 - 02/19/13 04:53 PM

Quote:

You are correct Don. That is a very good explanation. Best thing is using a desiccant canister in the EP box. keeps them in a dry atmosphere.




That's what I do. Plus, I use only one eyepiece at a time and put on a dew heater strap the moment I see any fogging. The eyepieces I'm not using stay in the eyepiece case in the back of my Honda Element. It's usually pretty humid here in Florida, but I've never had any problems with my Televue eyepieces. I do think the waterproofing done by ES is a nice feature and sure wouldn't mind seeing Televue (or anyone else for that matter) follow suit. But in actual practice, the lack of waterproofing isn't that big a deal IMHO for astronomical use and not a factor that by itself would influence my purchasing decisions.


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BillP
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5689351 - 02/19/13 05:35 PM

Quote:

With semi-permeable seals, Nitrogen-filled will stay Nitrogen-filled a lot longer than Argon-filled will stay Argon-filled.




According to this response from Argonne National labratory scientist, molecule size is about the same between the two and neither has propensity to leak more than the other.

Link

Given how simple the construction of an eyepiece is, with no internal moving parts to the optics, I am not seeing why one would expect the seals to deteriorate to the point that they would leak out? Anyone have any actual research tests that confirm that simple constructed devices can't maintain a nitrogen fill for many many years/decades?

Edited by BillP (02/19/13 05:38 PM)


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Starman1
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: BillP]
      #5689456 - 02/19/13 06:37 PM

It isn't molecule size, Bill, it's the difference in partial pressure on one side versus the other.

With Nitrogen, the gas is 100% on one side, 78% on the other.
With Argon, the gas is 100% on one side and 0.934% on the other.
With equal sized molecules, Argon will leak faster due to that factor.

Seals can be quite elaborate, but are usually made from rubber or a polymer of some sort. And the seals can last for many years.

But the leak around the seals is inevitable. Slow, as long as one side is not pressurized higher than the other, but inevitable.

Not a bad idea, though we've had several hundred years of eyepieces so far and most have not been sealed.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5689889 - 02/19/13 10:39 PM

Quote:


But the leak around the seals is inevitable. Slow, as long as one side is not pressurized higher than the other, but inevitable.




I think it is diffusion through the seal. Bicycle tubes are an extreme example. High pressure differential, large surface area, relatively small enclosed volume... a 700c-23 pumped to 120psi might be down to 100-110 psi in a week.

Jon


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Starman1
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5690002 - 02/20/13 12:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:


But the leak around the seals is inevitable. Slow, as long as one side is not pressurized higher than the other, but inevitable.




I think it is diffusion through the seal. Bicycle tubes are an extreme example. High pressure differential, large surface area, relatively small enclosed volume... a 700c-23 pumped to 120psi might be down to 100-110 psi in a week.

Jon




??
Don't know what kind of tubes you use, but 120psi bicycle tires are down to 75-90psi in 24 hours. < 50psi in a week. I'm not riding several hours a day now as I was when I was racing, but when I did train hours per day, we used to air up the tires again after 12 hours because they had gotten soft.

In an eyepiece, though, the pressure is the same on both sides of the seal, so diffusion should be very very slow.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Are Televue EPs water proof? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5690293 - 02/20/13 07:37 AM

Quote:

??
Don't know what kind of tubes you use, but 120psi bicycle tires are down to 75-90psi in 24 hours. < 50psi in a week. I'm not riding several hours a day now as I was when I was racing, but when I did train hours per day, we used to air up the tires again after 12 hours because they had gotten soft.





Don:

I suspect you were either using sew-ups or lightweight latex tubes. I never used Latex tubes but do have some disk and track wheels with tubular tires and they loose pressure quickly.

I commuted on a daily basis for more than 20 years using standard butyl tubes. Most of the bikes were setup with 23's but I also rode 20's sometimes and 25's, I pumped my tires at least once a week and they were never under 100psi unless there was a leak. At 220lbs riding a 700C x 23, any 23mm tire down to under 80lbs was a guaranteed snake bite.

Jon


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