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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: careysub]
      #5842066 - 05/05/13 05:20 PM

Note that the larger a lens is, the more likely there are to be inclusions, bubbles, striae, and the like in the lens. So the larger an eyepiece is, the more rejects there will be on lenses and the more expensive it will be to make.
The 21 Ethos has more lenses internally than the 31 Nagler, and the eyepiece costs a lot more to make. Internal glass types and curves might run the cost difference up even more, too.
Lest we forget, when the 20mm ES was introduced, it was 2/3 the price of the 21 Ethos, not 1/3.
I would bet that ES discovered the market for that focal length of eyepiece was a lot smaller than their estimate based on the sales of 14mm and 9mm, and that that is the reason for the sale price.


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Alvin Huey
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/18/05

Loc: NorCal
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5842171 - 05/05/13 06:06 PM

And a LOT of glass.

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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman81]
      #5842172 - 05/05/13 06:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.




I almost made a post about the same quote as above but my reply was not as nice as your post Paul so I thought better of it. I know Ken(faacanders) personally and I'm guessing he didn't really mean what he said.

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




I know Ken as well and I'm sure he didn't quite mean it exactly as he stated it. He has both an ES100* (20mm) and an Ethos (10mm) and I am thinking he didn't buy his own Ethos just to feel 'exclusive'!

The one Ethos I have (13mm), I feel quite lucky to have it. No, I didn't win it in a raffle, but the unbeatable package deal that I scored on my dob and a couple EPs including the Ethos (on Craigslist of all places) definitely made me feel like a winner. Would I have been happy with an ES if it didn't come along, sure. I had the 9mm ES 100 and it was great--I think everyone should try a 100* EP if their finances allow.




I said people buy luxury items to be exclusive and have the best (this is straight out of the marketing textbooks). I did not say they were snobs for wanting/having luxury items. People are willing to pay more for things which are rare.

I enjoy my 10mm Ethos which I purcahsed before ES competition. I also enjoy my Explore Scientific 20mm 100 AFOV and believe I have serial number 5 when it first came out. Due to the high power I don't use the 3.7mm Ethos that much except of globular clusters which fill the view. If there was a 120 AFOV 5 or 5.5mm I would likely jump on that to fill my last whole. I enjoy the wide TFOV and also like my 30mm 82 AFOV Meade (but don't like the grease), and 40mm 70 AFOV University Optics MK-70 Koenig as my absolute widest TFOV. In general, I would say I prefer the value eyepieces, but sometimes chose the luxury for where there is no competition.

P.S. I do have two 24mm 68 AFOV panoptics which provide the widest TFOV for my binoviewers for the given OCS's.

P.S.S. Once my brother-in-law showed me a nice "$100 pair of sunglasses" he got. My quick response was "boy you got ripped off mine only cost me a dollar". At first he didn't know what to say, but after thinking said, "Well I guess you got the better deal didn't you". Some buy luxury to keep up with the Jones, and some don't even try.


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Paul G
Post Laureate
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: JimMo]
      #5842402 - 05/05/13 08:41 PM

Quote:

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




Well played!


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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5842417 - 05/05/13 08:50 PM

Great thread! It's not just a luxury thing though, the Ethoi do have slightly better edge correction than the ES according to all the reports. That being said, the more I view the less I concentrate or worry about the extreme edges. I've had a few ES eyepieces and found them to be excellent, quality optics.

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JMW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5842568 - 05/05/13 10:09 PM

Well the discount code Gods lined up for me back in May of 2010:

Item: TVU098-7
Quantity: 1
Name: TeleVue Ethos 21mm Eyepiece 2-Inch Format
Weight: 1 lbs
Price: $789.98
Hayneedle Store: HayneedleShopping.com
Shipping Method: Ground Residential
Estimated Delivery Date: 4/15/2010
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Order Sub-Total: $789.98
Shipping & Handling: $0.00
Sales Tax: $0.00
Discounts: ($110.60)
-----------------------------
Order Total: $679.38

It may have been a website error but I have enjoyed it for the last 3 years.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5843968 - 05/06/13 04:41 PM

A lot of people love these eyepieces and are willing to pay the price. The Ethos pushed the envelope when they first came out. I don't know if there was any R&D costs to recoup. TeleVue has extremely high quality control standards, plus the complexity of the Ethos are some of the factors that drove up the price. I would pay the price--except I prefer Naglers,Delos and Pentax Extra Wide eyepieces. Also, they are priced considerably less.

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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5844440 - 05/06/13 09:02 PM

As hobbies go it is a very expensive decision. I paid less in the last year for a full set of Titleist AP2 irons, and also a mint 2008 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. Both of these purchases reflect the top quality available in their respective fields and are more like the astronomical equivalent of an Astro-Physics APO telescope, not a single eyepiece. Each purchase was very easy to justify - I just literally thought wow, I simply cannot believe this quality and workmanship cost less than that 21mm Ethos I didn't even really like all that much.

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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
*****

Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5844853 - 05/07/13 02:04 AM

Quote:

As hobbies go it is a very expensive decision. I paid less in the last year for a full set of Titleist AP2 irons, and also a mint 2008 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. Both of these purchases reflect the top quality available in their respective fields and are more like the astronomical equivalent of an Astro-Physics APO telescope, not a single eyepiece. Each purchase was very easy to justify - I just literally thought wow, I simply cannot believe this quality and workmanship cost less than that 21mm Ethos I didn't even really like all that much.



Really?
My best friend just paid more than the 21 Ethos for a putter!
And I owned a Spanish Goya guitar in 1972 that was $1000 then (about $6000 now). You're comparing apples with oranges. Try comparing the 21 Ethos with the prices of really high-end new gear in each of your other hobbies.
You paid less for those other things. Well, you can pay less than $895 for an eyepiece, too.
I used to autocross race (never was particularly good at it, but it was fun). I spent $30K on tires in the 3 years I did it. Now I considered that an expensive hobby at the time, but it was nothing compared to boating.
A high-end bicycle will cost more than a full set of all the Ethos eyepieces.
And I have an acquaintance who does skeet shooting and paid $150K for his Italian-made shotgun. He says it was one of that company's lower models.
There are cheaper hobbies, and there are more expensive hobbies. As hobbies go, though, not counting the price of high-end scopes, astronomy is one of the cheap ones.
Just your POV. That's fine. There are a lot of eyepieces in the world.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5844922 - 05/07/13 05:17 AM

Quote:

As hobbies go it is a very expensive decision. I paid less in the last year for a full set of Titleist AP2 irons, and also a mint 2008 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. Both of these purchases reflect the top quality available in their respective fields and are more like the astronomical equivalent of an Astro-Physics APO telescope, not a single eyepiece. Each purchase was very easy to justify - I just literally thought wow, I simply cannot believe this quality and workmanship cost less than that 21mm Ethos I didn't even really like all that much.




Humm...

As a guitar player, I know that you can pay a lot more than $895 for Strat. High end Strats seem to me in the $5000 range. Heck, the Clapton "Brownie" replica is $15,000. Strats are popular but they are production line guitars, certainly not the equivalent of a A-P scope... Right now my 1910 Martin O-18 is in the shop getting fixed, the repair bill, $1300... Fancy truly hand made guitars... A top of the line Taylor Guitar will run about $9000. A limited edition Ramirez, over $20,000.

My youngest son is a golf pro at Torrey Pines, high end stuff: you can pay $600 just for a single shaft...

As astronomers, we're cheap... Our equipment lasts forever and we basically pay no usage fees. Golfers who are really into it, they may spend $50,000 to join a country club and pay a monthly fee of several hundred dollars. Outside their country club, they pay green fees and playing at top notch golf course might cost $300 on a Sunday, it's like throwing Type 6 Naglers out the window on your drive home.

Green Fees Torrey Pines South

Yes, a single eyepiece for $900 is a lot of money. But it's an item that will last forever and provide exceptional performance. Whether it's "worth it", that's up to each of us to decide. One can play a $300 guitar and have a good time, one can play a $50,000 guitar and have a good time... Personally I have not invested in a 21mm Ethos nor have I invested in a Ramirez guitar.

Jon


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t.r.
Post Laureate
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Reged: 02/14/08

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845257 - 05/07/13 10:24 AM Attachment (11 downloads)

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!

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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
*****

Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5845337 - 05/07/13 11:20 AM

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Personally I have issues with purchasing what seems to be a design that was reverse engineered from the TeleVue design.

Jon Isaacs


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JMW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845347 - 05/07/13 11:24 AM

Well compared to scopes, you can buy a top of the line eyepiece and not have to spend several months salary to do so. The list price of my complete current eyepiece collection is less than the list price of my TEC 140.

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planet earth
Carpal Tunnel
****

Reged: 09/07/10

Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845352 - 05/07/13 11:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Personally I have issues with purchasing what seems to be a design that was reverse engineered from the TeleVue design.

Jon Isaacs




Not me, more cash in my pocket rather then theirs...
Sam


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MRNUTTY
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/22/11

Loc: Mendon, MA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845360 - 05/07/13 11:29 AM

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to be divorced from what is happening to everyone else investing in proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, from working it high-tech all my life reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; it can't be denied.


Edited by MRNUTTY (05/07/13 12:12 PM)


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Damo636
sage


Reged: 08/16/11

Loc: Co Fermanagh, Northern Ireland
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845370 - 05/07/13 11:37 AM

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat


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Binojunky
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5845400 - 05/07/13 12:03 PM

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to divorced from what is happening to everyone investing proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, working it high-tech all my life, reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; can't be denied.




Well said, not much out there that hasn,t benefited from reverse engineering or copying/modifying an original idea at one time or another,DA.


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Jon Isaacs
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5845422 - 05/07/13 12:19 PM

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to divorced from what is happening to everyone investing proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, working it high-tech all my life, reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; can't be denied.




I did not condemn others for buying reverse engineered eyepieces. I said I had issues.

As far as the value of reverse engineering, historically it has been considered important to provide inventors with protection for innovative ideas. It's clear to me that the Ethos design is innovative and deserves some protection. It is also clear that TeleVue was aware that the current patent protection system had not been sufficient in the case of the Naglers, it only made copying the design easier.

The sort of Green Room approach that Compaq used to reverse engineer the original PC bios, I think that's quite reasonable. Directly copying the bios, that was not OK.

If you are OK buying something that has been so blatantly copied, that's your decision. I do think though that it is better to just say one is OK doing it and not try to justify it by saying it benefits us all.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (05/07/13 12:39 PM)


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calibos
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 11/18/07

Loc: Ireland
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: JMW]
      #5845430 - 05/07/13 12:23 PM

Quote:

Well the discount code Gods lined up for me back in May of 2010:

Item: TVU098-7
Quantity: 1
Name: TeleVue Ethos 21mm Eyepiece 2-Inch Format
Weight: 1 lbs
Price: $789.98
Hayneedle Store: HayneedleShopping.com
Shipping Method: Ground Residential
Estimated Delivery Date: 4/15/2010
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Order Sub-Total: $789.98
Shipping & Handling: $0.00
Sales Tax: $0.00
Discounts: ($110.60)
-----------------------------
Order Total: $679.38

It may have been a website error but I have enjoyed it for the last 3 years.




That few weeks in April/May 2010 was "Die glückliche Zeit" as the Kriegsmarine used to say.

The regular non-sale price for the Ethos was lower then to begin with.

Televue did a 20% off sale to celebrate Neafs 20th anniversary.

Hayneedle had a 10 or 11% valid discount code doing the rounds.

The $/€ exchange rate was quite favourable to us in Euroland

I had family in Seattle that I could have forward the eyepieces to me.

I ended up getting a 31N,21E,17E,13E,10E,8E,6E and 3.7E for less than half what I would have paid over in Ireland.

Not only were they a bargain, they were an investment I'll probably still be able to sell them for a profit for the next decade


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Illinois
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 12/18/06

Loc: near Dixon, Illinois USA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5845438 - 05/07/13 12:27 PM

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Very nice!

But you have three 14mm eyepieces?


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