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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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Illinois
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Illinois]
      #5845446 - 05/07/13 12:30 PM

$895! Forget it!

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MRNUTTY
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845521 - 05/07/13 01:01 PM



Blah.. why argue.

Edited by MRNUTTY (05/07/13 01:15 PM)


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Paul G
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845770 - 05/07/13 02:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to divorced from what is happening to everyone investing proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, working it high-tech all my life, reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; can't be denied.




I did not condemn others for buying reverse engineered eyepieces. I said I had issues.

As far as the value of reverse engineering, historically it has been considered important to provide inventors with protection for innovative ideas. It's clear to me that the Ethos design is innovative and deserves some protection. It is also clear that TeleVue was aware that the current patent protection system had not been sufficient in the case of the Naglers, it only made copying the design easier.

The sort of Green Room approach that Compaq used to reverse engineer the original PC bios, I think that's quite reasonable. Directly copying the bios, that was not OK.

If you are OK buying something that has been so blatantly copied, that's your decision. I do think though that it is better to just say one is OK doing it and not try to justify it by saying it benefits us all.

Jon




Well said. I feel the same.


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johnnyha
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845802 - 05/07/13 02:39 PM

Don, Jon - touche! Point taken. However my friend has a $3K Custom Shop and both of us prefer the American Deluxe which I got used but mint for $899 ($1600+ new).

OK back on topic. Maybe people who read this thread will stop complaining about the similar price of the Leica ASPH Zoom.


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jrbarnett
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5845821 - 05/07/13 02:48 PM



Yeah, that's why I dumped all of my Nagler Type 1s, too.

A blatant adaptation of earlier inventions by Scidmore, Osawa, Bertele and Altman.

Every inventor with deep knowledge in any particular field is inevitably knowledgeable about and influenced by the designs of other current and past proficients in that field. No one works in a vacuum.

Personally, I'd cut Televue and ES both some slack in this regard. After all, Televue *could* have patented the Ethos and then excluded ES from the US and other markets covered by US patent treaty. Perhaps the cost of obtaining and then enforcing a patent was more than the cost of losing some sales to ES for its similar design.

And let's not forget those bahstahds at Nikon with their NAV-HW design!

- Jim


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csrlice12
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5845864 - 05/07/13 03:03 PM

"it's like throwing Type 6 Naglers out the window on your drive home."

I really, really, really hope I'm in the car behind you....


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planet earth
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5845876 - 05/07/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




And take that lawsuit Ibanez guitar with you!
Sam


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5845885 - 05/07/13 03:09 PM

Quote:

Don, Jon - touche! Point taken. However my friend has a $3K Custom Shop and both of us prefer the American Deluxe which I got for $899.

OK back on topic. Maybe people who read this thread will stop complaining about the similar price of the Leica ASPH Zoom.




I am happy playing my 30 year old Takamine acoustic guitar while I wait for the Martin... And I am happy with my set of Naglers and do not pine for either the Ethos or the ES 100 degree eyepieces.

There comes a time when one realizes it's how you play the guitar, not the guitar you play that counts.

Jon


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Starman1
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5845949 - 05/07/13 03:32 PM

There's some truth in Jim's comment. Even someone who starts with a clean slate can home in on an existing design if that existing design just seems to be the simplest way to achieve the goal, i.e. parallel evolution of an idea.

[Frankly, though, Carl Kellner's design was blatantly ripped off by Georg Plössl, his contemporary. All he did was achromaticize the remaining singlet lens to come up with his "design". To this day, I refuse to use a Plössl eyepiece for that reason. And don't get me started on Albert König--sheesh, what a copycat. And Kaspereit, Erfle and others? Not an original thought in their heads! ]

Every designer starts out with a goal and there are limited ways to end up at the goal. We've seen a LOT of eyepiece designs over the years. Sometimes a designer has a Eureka! and figures out a simple way to improve on older designs by changing the glass or modifying some curves here and there. And it's become easier with the advent of computer programs to do optical design. Modern opticians have a lot more glass types and coating options to play with. A modern design may be a slightly modified older design or a brand new design. Either way, they're designs that haven't been marketed before.
Parallel evolution of a design is possible, and that may account for why we seem to have gotten some modified older designs in the past. And there's no doubt blatant copying has taken place (it goes on all the time between Chinese manufacturers).

So how could a person stick with only the originator's manufacturer when it might be difficult to determine exactly who IS the originator? Especially if the designs aren't patented. We may have a few concrete examples, here, but it's not clear that that is the case with the roughly 15 manufacturers offering the same 6-element 60 degree eyepiece with what appear to be the same internals. Even if I WANTED to owe allegiance to the originator, it might be impossible for me to do so.


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Starman81
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5845983 - 05/07/13 03:50 PM

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




This thread is getting funny.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5846195 - 05/07/13 05:47 PM

Quote:


So how could a person stick with only the originator's manufacturer when it might be difficult to determine exactly who IS the originator?




I think certain designs can be considered revolutionary in the sense that they push the envelope to a new level and while one can point to prior work, the new efforts represent a significant step above and beyond. I think the original Nagler eyepieces were a revolutionary design, I think the Ethos eyepieces were a revolutionary design. In both cases, these represented something that was not previously available to the amateur astronomer. One can probably include the Panoptics, apparently derived from Erfle's they achieved a level of correction in fast telescopes not possible with the Erfles.

Certainly there are cases of parallel development but I don't believe that the Meade UWA's were a parallel design nor do I believe the ES 100 degree eyepieces were a parallel design nor do I think anyone is making that claim.

Jon


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Starman1
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846306 - 05/07/13 06:34 PM

Jon,

Correct.

Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces. It's a classic case of what I mentioned: good designers coming up with good solutions for optical problems and thinking similarly. As the history of Al Nagler himself attests (see the recent and older articles), he designed the eyepiece after figuring out solutions to similar problems elsewhere in his professional career.

And Paul Dellechiaie did the same for the Ethos. Revolutionary, for sure.

Meade's Japanese mfr did solve one problem with the exit pupil of the T1 Nagler by adding an additional lens to their UWA, but it's obvious what the, uh, source of the Meade UWA was. Even the focal lengths were nearly exact copies.
Fast forward to now and the 100 degree eyepieces. Gee, I wonder where those designs came from?

It was mentioned the Delos is an XW copy. Sorry, not. Different glass, different number of elements. Similar eye relief, yeah, and even a similar apparent field. But the Ethos was the parent source and it was a derivative of the Ethos design. I don't think it was accidental it was aimed at the same market niche, but the design is not a copy.


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Shneor
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Reged: 03/01/05

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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5846324 - 05/07/13 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.




I almost made a post about the same quote as above but my reply was not as nice as your post Paul so I thought better of it. I know Ken(faacanders) personally and I'm guessing he didn't really mean what he said.

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




I know Ken as well and I'm sure he didn't quite mean it exactly as he stated it. He has both an ES100* (20mm) and an Ethos (10mm) and I am thinking he didn't buy his own Ethos just to feel 'exclusive'!

The one Ethos I have (13mm), I feel quite lucky to have it. No, I didn't win it in a raffle, but the unbeatable package deal that I scored on my dob and a couple EPs including the Ethos (on Craigslist of all places) definitely made me feel like a winner. Would I have been happy with an ES if it didn't come along, sure. I had the 9mm ES 100 and it was great--I think everyone should try a 100* EP if their finances allow.




I said people buy luxury items to be exclusive and have the best (this is straight out of the marketing textbooks). I did not say they were snobs for wanting/having luxury items. People are willing to pay more for things which are rare.

I enjoy my 10mm Ethos which I purcahsed before ES competition. I also enjoy my Explore Scientific 20mm 100 AFOV and believe I have serial number 5 when it first came out. Due to the high power I don't use the 3.7mm Ethos that much except of globular clusters which fill the view. If there was a 120 AFOV 5 or 5.5mm I would likely jump on that to fill my last whole. I enjoy the wide TFOV and also like my 30mm 82 AFOV Meade (but don't like the grease), and 40mm 70 AFOV University Optics MK-70 Koenig as my absolute widest TFOV. In general, I would say I prefer the value eyepieces, but sometimes chose the luxury for where there is no competition.

P.S. I do have two 24mm 68 AFOV panoptics which provide the widest TFOV for my binoviewers for the given OCS's.

P.S.S. Once my brother-in-law showed me a nice "$100 pair of sunglasses" he got. My quick response was "boy you got ripped off mine only cost me a dollar". At first he didn't know what to say, but after thinking said, "Well I guess you got the better deal didn't you". Some buy luxury to keep up with the Jones, and some don't even try.



I have the 9mm ES120*, and as anyone who had observed with me knows, I love to share my views, especially now that ES has stopped the eyepiece down. Looks like only the first 20 have an apparent field of about 140*. That eyepiece is more expensive than the 21mm Ethos by a couple of hundred $$, but it stays in my focuser more than other eyepiece I have, including Ethoi and Delos.
Clears,


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russell23
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5846327 - 05/07/13 06:42 PM

Quote:


It was mentioned the Delos is an XW copy. Sorry, not. Different glass, different number of elements. Similar eye relief, yeah, and even a similar apparent field. But the Ethos was the parent source and it was a derivative of the Ethos design. I don't think it was accidental it was aimed at the same market niche, but the design is not a copy.




I'll second this. Anyone that has looked through both should know that they are not clones. The presentation of a Delos is very different from an XW. I found the Delos to be perform more like the Nikon NAV than like the XW.

Dave


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russell23
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846371 - 05/07/13 07:01 PM

Quote:


If you are OK buying something that has been so blatantly copied, that's your decision. I do think though that it is better to just say one is OK doing it and not try to justify it by saying it benefits us all.

Jon




Jon,

Would you rather the 100 deg AFOV experience be reserved for those with deep pockets only? It goes back to my theme on the other thread. TV has never marketed economy priced widefields. Others have been left to fill that void. Obviously the ES100's are close copies of the Ethos. But do they have the same glass types as the Ethos? Same coatings? Same polish? I doubt it. ES set about the task of taking the Ethos design and offering an economy version of it.

ES has demonstrated that it is possible to offer a quality low cost 100 deg AFOV line. Many people that cannot afford $615+ for an Ethos can reach up to a price of $250-300 to be able to enjoy a quality 100 deg AFOV experience. Why shouldn't that opportunity be made available?

There are companies out there that actually offer economy and premium or higher grade lines of eyepieces.

Dave


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: russell23]
      #5846440 - 05/07/13 07:34 PM

Quote:



Would you rather the 100 deg AFOV experience be reserved for those with deep pockets only?




I get along fine without the "100 degree AFoV experience." It's not like something one must have to enjoy viewing the night sky through a telescope.

I am happy with the eyepieces I have, with the telescopes I have. They're not the best but they do the job. What is important to me is observing, spending time under the night sky.

Jon


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5846455 - 05/07/13 07:41 PM

Quote:


Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces.




Don:

I know that sometimes people point to those earlier eyepieces, the Bertele for example. Have you ever looked through a Bertele and evaluated it in comparison to the Nagler's correction in a fast scope? It seems to me that while the prior work had many of the pieces, it probably was not put together in the same well executed design as those original Naglers.

Jon


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5846601 - 05/07/13 08:56 PM

In the reverse engineering business we had a saying; "duplicate exactly, or understand completely". So when I see another product (the x-rays of the TV and ES EP's detailing the gross equivalencies) that has a similar optical architecture but different components, it's clearly a case of "understand completely" in order to bring a competitive product to market. Otherwise it would have been exactly the same. We may not like the ethics of Chinese development in the popular media, but they're no dummies. Many of the Chinese engineers I've worked with are very smart, and very well learned. I doubt they blindly followed TV's example, rather learned from it and worked out a similar solution. After all, its a severely constrained design problem with likely very few workable solutions; no wonder they look similar.

Edited by MRNUTTY (05/07/13 08:57 PM)


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russell23
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846924 - 05/07/13 11:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Would you rather the 100 deg AFOV experience be reserved for those with deep pockets only?




I get along fine without the "100 degree AFoV experience." It's not like something one must have to enjoy viewing the night sky through a telescope.

I am happy with the eyepieces I have, with the telescopes I have. They're not the best but they do the job. What is important to me is observing, spending time under the night sky.

Jon




I can get along fine without the 100 deg AFOV experience too. Over 90% of my observing time on 4 consecutive nights this last week was spent with 68 and 70 deg AFOV eyepieces, but the 14mm ES100 added a nice variation to my observing when I was using it. I'm glad ES has provided an affordable quality 100 deg option.

Dave


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Starman1
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847034 - 05/08/13 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces.




Don:

I know that sometimes people point to those earlier eyepieces, the Bertele for example. Have you ever looked through a Bertele and evaluated it in comparison to the Nagler's correction in a fast scope? It seems to me that while the prior work had many of the pieces, it probably was not put together in the same well executed design as those original Naglers.

Jon



I owned many of those earlier eyepiece types. I was an ocularholic, remember?
And it's true. Not only were they not as well-corrected, they had narrower fields of view compared to the Naglers.. That first 13mm Nagler was an, uh, eye opener.


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