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Equipment Discussions >> Eyepieces

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FishInPercolator
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Reged: 04/30/13

Loc: NYC
Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive?
      #5839123 - 05/03/13 09:44 PM

How come? It seems arbitrary at first but maybe it just happens to fall in that range which everyone needs for that perfect eyepiece lineup....

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Sean Puett
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Reged: 09/06/10

Loc: always cloudy, washington
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5839476 - 05/04/13 02:15 AM

It is an awesome eyepiece. There is a lot of well polished rare glass and it isn't made in China. It doesn't have a dark ring near the fieldstop that changes color or stars or other objects and it doesn't seem to lose as much light as similar eyepieces. The full field is usable and well corrected.

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Pollux556
Pooh-Bah
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Reged: 12/14/08

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Sean Puett]
      #5839640 - 05/04/13 07:11 AM

Oups, may be an interesting discussion here

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MAURITS
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 09/22/09

Loc: Belgium
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Pollux556]
      #5839651 - 05/04/13 07:26 AM

For me it's one of the most used EP's, great thing!

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Ava
sage


Reged: 11/30/11

Loc: Sweden
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MAURITS]
      #5839675 - 05/04/13 08:01 AM

I think the answer is rather simple, it just reflects the larger cost of manufacture, the 21mm Ethos is a lot larger than the 1.25" Ethoses or the 17mm, this in turn requires larger, equally well polished and correctly figured lenses, etc. The 21mm is almost double the weight and volume compared to the 13mm to give you a sense of the difference.

If you compare the price scaling to refractors it almost feels like it should be more expensive (or maybe rather the smaller Ethoses less expensive).


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FishInPercolator
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/30/13

Loc: NYC
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Ava]
      #5839826 - 05/04/13 10:01 AM

Okay, I'm just trying to see if I can find a good range of EP for a new EdgeHD 800 scope:

Tele Vue Ethos 10mm 1.25" Eyepiece - 100*
Tele Vue Delos 17.3mm Eyepiece 1.25" EDL-17.3 72*
Tele Vue Nagler 31mm Type 5 - 2" Eyepiece EN5-310 82*
Tele Vue 2.0x 2" Powermate PMT-2200

I guess if I'm going to go with the 17mm, I don't need the 21..


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FishInPercolator
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/30/13

Loc: NYC
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5839870 - 05/04/13 10:43 AM

Better yet -

Tele Vue Ethos 8mm 1.25" Eyepiece - 100*
Tele Vue Nagler 31mm Type 5 - 2" Eyepiece EN5-310 82*
Tele Vue 2.0x 2" Powermate PMT-2200


If I use the PM on the Nagler I don't need a mid-range 17.3mm... but then if I use it on the 17.3, I don't need the 8.... ugh... what to do, what to do...

Edited by FishInPercolator (05/04/13 10:56 AM)


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Binojunky
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Reged: 12/25/10

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5839974 - 05/04/13 11:52 AM

Not everyone however is deeply in love with the Ethos, lots of used ones for sale in my neck of the woods, some people find the views overpowering, JMPOV,DA.

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FishInPercolator
professor emeritus


Reged: 04/30/13

Loc: NYC
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Binojunky]
      #5840007 - 05/04/13 12:06 PM

Interesting... overpowering in what way? I would think it would wide views on an SCT would be maximizing its usage ability...

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Eddgie
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Reged: 02/01/06

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5840060 - 05/04/13 12:35 PM

Study economics more. The answer is always there.

Almost always the answer to this question is blindingly simple.

Because the provider is selling a limited appeal item and has to make a high profit on each sample to make enough money to make it worth their time to do.

Why do Ferraris cost 10 times as much as Ford Focuses? Ford must sell tens to hundreds of thousands of them a year vs maybe a few hundred Ferraris a year.

So, Ferrari has to make far more per unit to pay their employees, pay for their electric bills, phone bills, internet bills and all the other stuff they have to pay for.

Televue charges what it charges so it can make a profit that it feels is justification for the item it is selling.

Again, simple economics.


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ibase
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Reged: 03/20/08

Loc: Manila, Philippines 121*E 14*N
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Eddgie]
      #5840082 - 05/04/13 12:56 PM

The original post/question seems to have been framed from the context of why the Ethos 21mm in particular is so much more expensive than the other Ethoses (Ethoi?). Just pure speculation here - either the demand is higher for this focal length and TV is charging what the market can bear, or it's simply more expensive (as mentioned in another post) to manufacture than the others in TV's 100-degree line.

Best,


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jrbarnett
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Reged: 02/28/06

Loc: Petaluma, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5840149 - 05/04/13 01:48 PM

Because it has the size, mass and engineering complexity of a ski boat.

By the way, it *is* made in China. Just not in the PROC. It is made in Taiwan (ROC).

I'd rather have the Nikon NAV-HW 17mm. It comes with an amplifier lens giving you two different focal lengths for the price of one. But it makes the 21mm Ethos look like a bargain priced eyepiece in comparison.

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (05/04/13 01:57 PM)


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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5840175 - 05/04/13 02:03 PM

We live in a fee market, and manufacurers can use supply and demand curves to set price at the desired quantity they want to sell. If they set the price too high it will take longer to sell out, to low and they will sell out and have to produce more.

With the lower 20mm ES price they are selling out much more and producing more; they are probably building at economies of scale nad may have paid off their tooling by now.

Manufacurers decide what part of the market they want. Televue wants the luxury market; whereas ES claims the best value market. People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.


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JimMo
I'd Rather Do It Myself


Reged: 01/08/07

Loc: Under the SE Michigan lightdom...
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5840353 - 05/04/13 04:10 PM

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Hi Ken, I certainly don't buy Televue because I'm a snob and don't use them to show I'm better than anyone. My economics and situation is my own and I choose what I'm using based on that. If you remember I was lucky to win that first 13mm Ethos as a door prize drawing at the GLSG many moons ago and at the time I was happy with my Nagler T4's and 26T5. With the addition of the 13mm Ethos I consolidated over twenty five eyepieces to come up with my wide field set of seven 100º and a few longer focal length orthos and 24mm Panoptic. I now have less than half of total of what I previously had and all except one were bought used, or was traded for, or won as a door prize. I had most of them before the ES 100º eyepieces were even brought to market.

Anyways, why is a 21mm Ethos so expensive? Well, for me it's one of the few perfect eyepieces I've ever used in my f4.3 dob with Paracorr 2. I was going to try out a ES 20mm 100º at the '09 WSP but that never happened. Al Nagler let me use one of his for an hour and if I had been wearing socks the views would haved knocked them off. The 14.5" f4.3 mirror + 21mm Ethos + PC2 + the far southern Winter DSO's = nirvana. I recently traded a Nagler 31mm T5 for an ES 25mm 100º which I'm still evaluating. I might end up selling the 21 Ethos if the 25mm 100º lives up to expectations.


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5841601 - 05/05/13 12:42 PM

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.


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johnnyha
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5841750 - 05/05/13 02:04 PM

Quote:

I'd rather have the Nikon NAV-HW 17mm. It comes with an amplifier lens giving you two different focal lengths for the price of one. But it makes the 21mm Ethos look like a bargain priced eyepiece in comparison.



I actually sold my 21E because I was kinda so-so about it, and got the Leica 17.9-8.9mm ASPH Zoom. Could not be happier, that proved to be a great decision for me. Of course I have a 31T5 to cover for the low end so it wasn't a tough decision, I found the 31T5 Nagler much more comfortable to use than the 21mm Ethos.


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JimMo
I'd Rather Do It Myself


Reged: 01/08/07

Loc: Under the SE Michigan lightdom...
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5841767 - 05/05/13 02:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.




I almost made a post about the same quote as above but my reply was not as nice as your post Paul so I thought better of it. I know Ken(faacanders) personally and I'm guessing he didn't really mean what he said.

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.


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Starman81
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 03/06/08

Loc: Metro Detroit, MI, USA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: JimMo]
      #5841827 - 05/05/13 03:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.




I almost made a post about the same quote as above but my reply was not as nice as your post Paul so I thought better of it. I know Ken(faacanders) personally and I'm guessing he didn't really mean what he said.

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




I know Ken as well and I'm sure he didn't quite mean it exactly as he stated it. He has both an ES100* (20mm) and an Ethos (10mm) and I am thinking he didn't buy his own Ethos just to feel 'exclusive'!

The one Ethos I have (13mm), I feel quite lucky to have it. No, I didn't win it in a raffle, but the unbeatable package deal that I scored on my dob and a couple EPs including the Ethos (on Craigslist of all places) definitely made me feel like a winner. Would I have been happy with an ES if it didn't come along, sure. I had the 9mm ES 100 and it was great--I think everyone should try a 100* EP if their finances allow.


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careysub
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Reged: 02/18/11

Loc: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: ibase]
      #5841859 - 05/05/13 03:18 PM

Quote:

The original post/question seems to have been framed from the context of why the Ethos 21mm in particular is so much more expensive than the other Ethoses (Ethoi?). Just pure speculation here - either the demand is higher for this focal length and TV is charging what the market can bear, or it's simply more expensive (as mentioned in another post) to manufacture than the others in TV's 100-degree line.

Best,




Using the current street (well, web) prices for the Ethos line I calculate the following cost per gram:
3.70 $1.30
4.70 $1.10
6.00 $1.40
8.00 $1.42
10.00 $1.30
13.00 $1.10
17.00 $1.12
21.00 $0.88

The Ethos 21mm is in fact the cheapest for each gram of glass you get. Could it simply be high materials and manufacturing costs for the larger EPs?


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Sean Puett
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Reged: 09/06/10

Loc: always cloudy, washington
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: careysub]
      #5841950 - 05/05/13 04:09 PM

Funny post

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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: careysub]
      #5842066 - 05/05/13 05:20 PM

Note that the larger a lens is, the more likely there are to be inclusions, bubbles, striae, and the like in the lens. So the larger an eyepiece is, the more rejects there will be on lenses and the more expensive it will be to make.
The 21 Ethos has more lenses internally than the 31 Nagler, and the eyepiece costs a lot more to make. Internal glass types and curves might run the cost difference up even more, too.
Lest we forget, when the 20mm ES was introduced, it was 2/3 the price of the 21 Ethos, not 1/3.
I would bet that ES discovered the market for that focal length of eyepiece was a lot smaller than their estimate based on the sales of 14mm and 9mm, and that that is the reason for the sale price.


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Alvin Huey
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5842171 - 05/05/13 06:06 PM

And a LOT of glass.

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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


Reged: 03/28/11

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman81]
      #5842172 - 05/05/13 06:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.




I almost made a post about the same quote as above but my reply was not as nice as your post Paul so I thought better of it. I know Ken(faacanders) personally and I'm guessing he didn't really mean what he said.

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




I know Ken as well and I'm sure he didn't quite mean it exactly as he stated it. He has both an ES100* (20mm) and an Ethos (10mm) and I am thinking he didn't buy his own Ethos just to feel 'exclusive'!

The one Ethos I have (13mm), I feel quite lucky to have it. No, I didn't win it in a raffle, but the unbeatable package deal that I scored on my dob and a couple EPs including the Ethos (on Craigslist of all places) definitely made me feel like a winner. Would I have been happy with an ES if it didn't come along, sure. I had the 9mm ES 100 and it was great--I think everyone should try a 100* EP if their finances allow.




I said people buy luxury items to be exclusive and have the best (this is straight out of the marketing textbooks). I did not say they were snobs for wanting/having luxury items. People are willing to pay more for things which are rare.

I enjoy my 10mm Ethos which I purcahsed before ES competition. I also enjoy my Explore Scientific 20mm 100 AFOV and believe I have serial number 5 when it first came out. Due to the high power I don't use the 3.7mm Ethos that much except of globular clusters which fill the view. If there was a 120 AFOV 5 or 5.5mm I would likely jump on that to fill my last whole. I enjoy the wide TFOV and also like my 30mm 82 AFOV Meade (but don't like the grease), and 40mm 70 AFOV University Optics MK-70 Koenig as my absolute widest TFOV. In general, I would say I prefer the value eyepieces, but sometimes chose the luxury for where there is no competition.

P.S. I do have two 24mm 68 AFOV panoptics which provide the widest TFOV for my binoviewers for the given OCS's.

P.S.S. Once my brother-in-law showed me a nice "$100 pair of sunglasses" he got. My quick response was "boy you got ripped off mine only cost me a dollar". At first he didn't know what to say, but after thinking said, "Well I guess you got the better deal didn't you". Some buy luxury to keep up with the Jones, and some don't even try.


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Paul G
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Reged: 05/08/03

Loc: Freedonia
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: JimMo]
      #5842402 - 05/05/13 08:41 PM

Quote:

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




Well played!


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johnnyha
Postmaster
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5842417 - 05/05/13 08:50 PM

Great thread! It's not just a luxury thing though, the Ethoi do have slightly better edge correction than the ES according to all the reports. That being said, the more I view the less I concentrate or worry about the extreme edges. I've had a few ES eyepieces and found them to be excellent, quality optics.

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JMW
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 02/11/07

Loc: Nevada
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5842568 - 05/05/13 10:09 PM

Well the discount code Gods lined up for me back in May of 2010:

Item: TVU098-7
Quantity: 1
Name: TeleVue Ethos 21mm Eyepiece 2-Inch Format
Weight: 1 lbs
Price: $789.98
Hayneedle Store: HayneedleShopping.com
Shipping Method: Ground Residential
Estimated Delivery Date: 4/15/2010
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Order Sub-Total: $789.98
Shipping & Handling: $0.00
Sales Tax: $0.00
Discounts: ($110.60)
-----------------------------
Order Total: $679.38

It may have been a website error but I have enjoyed it for the last 3 years.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
*****

Reged: 11/07/08

Loc: South Texas
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5843968 - 05/06/13 04:41 PM

A lot of people love these eyepieces and are willing to pay the price. The Ethos pushed the envelope when they first came out. I don't know if there was any R&D costs to recoup. TeleVue has extremely high quality control standards, plus the complexity of the Ethos are some of the factors that drove up the price. I would pay the price--except I prefer Naglers,Delos and Pentax Extra Wide eyepieces. Also, they are priced considerably less.

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johnnyha
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Reged: 11/12/06

Loc: Sherman Oaks, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: GeneT]
      #5844440 - 05/06/13 09:02 PM

As hobbies go it is a very expensive decision. I paid less in the last year for a full set of Titleist AP2 irons, and also a mint 2008 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. Both of these purchases reflect the top quality available in their respective fields and are more like the astronomical equivalent of an Astro-Physics APO telescope, not a single eyepiece. Each purchase was very easy to justify - I just literally thought wow, I simply cannot believe this quality and workmanship cost less than that 21mm Ethos I didn't even really like all that much.

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Starman1
Vendor (EyepiecesEtc.com)
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Reged: 06/24/03

Loc: Los Angeles
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5844853 - 05/07/13 02:04 AM

Quote:

As hobbies go it is a very expensive decision. I paid less in the last year for a full set of Titleist AP2 irons, and also a mint 2008 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. Both of these purchases reflect the top quality available in their respective fields and are more like the astronomical equivalent of an Astro-Physics APO telescope, not a single eyepiece. Each purchase was very easy to justify - I just literally thought wow, I simply cannot believe this quality and workmanship cost less than that 21mm Ethos I didn't even really like all that much.



Really?
My best friend just paid more than the 21 Ethos for a putter!
And I owned a Spanish Goya guitar in 1972 that was $1000 then (about $6000 now). You're comparing apples with oranges. Try comparing the 21 Ethos with the prices of really high-end new gear in each of your other hobbies.
You paid less for those other things. Well, you can pay less than $895 for an eyepiece, too.
I used to autocross race (never was particularly good at it, but it was fun). I spent $30K on tires in the 3 years I did it. Now I considered that an expensive hobby at the time, but it was nothing compared to boating.
A high-end bicycle will cost more than a full set of all the Ethos eyepieces.
And I have an acquaintance who does skeet shooting and paid $150K for his Italian-made shotgun. He says it was one of that company's lower models.
There are cheaper hobbies, and there are more expensive hobbies. As hobbies go, though, not counting the price of high-end scopes, astronomy is one of the cheap ones.
Just your POV. That's fine. There are a lot of eyepieces in the world.


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Jon Isaacs
Postmaster
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Reged: 06/16/04

Loc: San Diego and Boulevard, CA
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5844922 - 05/07/13 05:17 AM

Quote:

As hobbies go it is a very expensive decision. I paid less in the last year for a full set of Titleist AP2 irons, and also a mint 2008 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. Both of these purchases reflect the top quality available in their respective fields and are more like the astronomical equivalent of an Astro-Physics APO telescope, not a single eyepiece. Each purchase was very easy to justify - I just literally thought wow, I simply cannot believe this quality and workmanship cost less than that 21mm Ethos I didn't even really like all that much.




Humm...

As a guitar player, I know that you can pay a lot more than $895 for Strat. High end Strats seem to me in the $5000 range. Heck, the Clapton "Brownie" replica is $15,000. Strats are popular but they are production line guitars, certainly not the equivalent of a A-P scope... Right now my 1910 Martin O-18 is in the shop getting fixed, the repair bill, $1300... Fancy truly hand made guitars... A top of the line Taylor Guitar will run about $9000. A limited edition Ramirez, over $20,000.

My youngest son is a golf pro at Torrey Pines, high end stuff: you can pay $600 just for a single shaft...

As astronomers, we're cheap... Our equipment lasts forever and we basically pay no usage fees. Golfers who are really into it, they may spend $50,000 to join a country club and pay a monthly fee of several hundred dollars. Outside their country club, they pay green fees and playing at top notch golf course might cost $300 on a Sunday, it's like throwing Type 6 Naglers out the window on your drive home.

Green Fees Torrey Pines South

Yes, a single eyepiece for $900 is a lot of money. But it's an item that will last forever and provide exceptional performance. Whether it's "worth it", that's up to each of us to decide. One can play a $300 guitar and have a good time, one can play a $50,000 guitar and have a good time... Personally I have not invested in a 21mm Ethos nor have I invested in a Ramirez guitar.

Jon


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t.r.
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845257 - 05/07/13 10:24 AM Attachment (11 downloads)

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!

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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5845337 - 05/07/13 11:20 AM

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Personally I have issues with purchasing what seems to be a design that was reverse engineered from the TeleVue design.

Jon Isaacs


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845347 - 05/07/13 11:24 AM

Well compared to scopes, you can buy a top of the line eyepiece and not have to spend several months salary to do so. The list price of my complete current eyepiece collection is less than the list price of my TEC 140.

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planet earth
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845352 - 05/07/13 11:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Personally I have issues with purchasing what seems to be a design that was reverse engineered from the TeleVue design.

Jon Isaacs




Not me, more cash in my pocket rather then theirs...
Sam


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845360 - 05/07/13 11:29 AM

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to be divorced from what is happening to everyone else investing in proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, from working it high-tech all my life reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; it can't be denied.


Edited by MRNUTTY (05/07/13 12:12 PM)


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845370 - 05/07/13 11:37 AM

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat


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Binojunky
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5845400 - 05/07/13 12:03 PM

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to divorced from what is happening to everyone investing proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, working it high-tech all my life, reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; can't be denied.




Well said, not much out there that hasn,t benefited from reverse engineering or copying/modifying an original idea at one time or another,DA.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5845422 - 05/07/13 12:19 PM

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to divorced from what is happening to everyone investing proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, working it high-tech all my life, reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; can't be denied.




I did not condemn others for buying reverse engineered eyepieces. I said I had issues.

As far as the value of reverse engineering, historically it has been considered important to provide inventors with protection for innovative ideas. It's clear to me that the Ethos design is innovative and deserves some protection. It is also clear that TeleVue was aware that the current patent protection system had not been sufficient in the case of the Naglers, it only made copying the design easier.

The sort of Green Room approach that Compaq used to reverse engineer the original PC bios, I think that's quite reasonable. Directly copying the bios, that was not OK.

If you are OK buying something that has been so blatantly copied, that's your decision. I do think though that it is better to just say one is OK doing it and not try to justify it by saying it benefits us all.

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs (05/07/13 12:39 PM)


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calibos
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: JMW]
      #5845430 - 05/07/13 12:23 PM

Quote:

Well the discount code Gods lined up for me back in May of 2010:

Item: TVU098-7
Quantity: 1
Name: TeleVue Ethos 21mm Eyepiece 2-Inch Format
Weight: 1 lbs
Price: $789.98
Hayneedle Store: HayneedleShopping.com
Shipping Method: Ground Residential
Estimated Delivery Date: 4/15/2010
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Order Sub-Total: $789.98
Shipping & Handling: $0.00
Sales Tax: $0.00
Discounts: ($110.60)
-----------------------------
Order Total: $679.38

It may have been a website error but I have enjoyed it for the last 3 years.




That few weeks in April/May 2010 was "Die glückliche Zeit" as the Kriegsmarine used to say.

The regular non-sale price for the Ethos was lower then to begin with.

Televue did a 20% off sale to celebrate Neafs 20th anniversary.

Hayneedle had a 10 or 11% valid discount code doing the rounds.

The $/€ exchange rate was quite favourable to us in Euroland

I had family in Seattle that I could have forward the eyepieces to me.

I ended up getting a 31N,21E,17E,13E,10E,8E,6E and 3.7E for less than half what I would have paid over in Ireland.

Not only were they a bargain, they were an investment I'll probably still be able to sell them for a profit for the next decade


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5845438 - 05/07/13 12:27 PM

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Very nice!

But you have three 14mm eyepieces?


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Illinois]
      #5845446 - 05/07/13 12:30 PM

$895! Forget it!

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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845521 - 05/07/13 01:01 PM



Blah.. why argue.

Edited by MRNUTTY (05/07/13 01:15 PM)


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845770 - 05/07/13 02:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to divorced from what is happening to everyone investing proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, working it high-tech all my life, reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; can't be denied.




I did not condemn others for buying reverse engineered eyepieces. I said I had issues.

As far as the value of reverse engineering, historically it has been considered important to provide inventors with protection for innovative ideas. It's clear to me that the Ethos design is innovative and deserves some protection. It is also clear that TeleVue was aware that the current patent protection system had not been sufficient in the case of the Naglers, it only made copying the design easier.

The sort of Green Room approach that Compaq used to reverse engineer the original PC bios, I think that's quite reasonable. Directly copying the bios, that was not OK.

If you are OK buying something that has been so blatantly copied, that's your decision. I do think though that it is better to just say one is OK doing it and not try to justify it by saying it benefits us all.

Jon




Well said. I feel the same.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5845802 - 05/07/13 02:39 PM

Don, Jon - touche! Point taken. However my friend has a $3K Custom Shop and both of us prefer the American Deluxe which I got used but mint for $899 ($1600+ new).

OK back on topic. Maybe people who read this thread will stop complaining about the similar price of the Leica ASPH Zoom.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5845821 - 05/07/13 02:48 PM



Yeah, that's why I dumped all of my Nagler Type 1s, too.

A blatant adaptation of earlier inventions by Scidmore, Osawa, Bertele and Altman.

Every inventor with deep knowledge in any particular field is inevitably knowledgeable about and influenced by the designs of other current and past proficients in that field. No one works in a vacuum.

Personally, I'd cut Televue and ES both some slack in this regard. After all, Televue *could* have patented the Ethos and then excluded ES from the US and other markets covered by US patent treaty. Perhaps the cost of obtaining and then enforcing a patent was more than the cost of losing some sales to ES for its similar design.

And let's not forget those bahstahds at Nikon with their NAV-HW design!

- Jim


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5845864 - 05/07/13 03:03 PM

"it's like throwing Type 6 Naglers out the window on your drive home."

I really, really, really hope I'm in the car behind you....


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5845876 - 05/07/13 03:06 PM

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




And take that lawsuit Ibanez guitar with you!
Sam


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: johnnyha]
      #5845885 - 05/07/13 03:09 PM

Quote:

Don, Jon - touche! Point taken. However my friend has a $3K Custom Shop and both of us prefer the American Deluxe which I got for $899.

OK back on topic. Maybe people who read this thread will stop complaining about the similar price of the Leica ASPH Zoom.




I am happy playing my 30 year old Takamine acoustic guitar while I wait for the Martin... And I am happy with my set of Naglers and do not pine for either the Ethos or the ES 100 degree eyepieces.

There comes a time when one realizes it's how you play the guitar, not the guitar you play that counts.

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5845949 - 05/07/13 03:32 PM

There's some truth in Jim's comment. Even someone who starts with a clean slate can home in on an existing design if that existing design just seems to be the simplest way to achieve the goal, i.e. parallel evolution of an idea.

[Frankly, though, Carl Kellner's design was blatantly ripped off by Georg Plössl, his contemporary. All he did was achromaticize the remaining singlet lens to come up with his "design". To this day, I refuse to use a Plössl eyepiece for that reason. And don't get me started on Albert König--sheesh, what a copycat. And Kaspereit, Erfle and others? Not an original thought in their heads! ]

Every designer starts out with a goal and there are limited ways to end up at the goal. We've seen a LOT of eyepiece designs over the years. Sometimes a designer has a Eureka! and figures out a simple way to improve on older designs by changing the glass or modifying some curves here and there. And it's become easier with the advent of computer programs to do optical design. Modern opticians have a lot more glass types and coating options to play with. A modern design may be a slightly modified older design or a brand new design. Either way, they're designs that haven't been marketed before.
Parallel evolution of a design is possible, and that may account for why we seem to have gotten some modified older designs in the past. And there's no doubt blatant copying has taken place (it goes on all the time between Chinese manufacturers).

So how could a person stick with only the originator's manufacturer when it might be difficult to determine exactly who IS the originator? Especially if the designs aren't patented. We may have a few concrete examples, here, but it's not clear that that is the case with the roughly 15 manufacturers offering the same 6-element 60 degree eyepiece with what appear to be the same internals. Even if I WANTED to owe allegiance to the originator, it might be impossible for me to do so.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5845983 - 05/07/13 03:50 PM

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




This thread is getting funny.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5846195 - 05/07/13 05:47 PM

Quote:


So how could a person stick with only the originator's manufacturer when it might be difficult to determine exactly who IS the originator?




I think certain designs can be considered revolutionary in the sense that they push the envelope to a new level and while one can point to prior work, the new efforts represent a significant step above and beyond. I think the original Nagler eyepieces were a revolutionary design, I think the Ethos eyepieces were a revolutionary design. In both cases, these represented something that was not previously available to the amateur astronomer. One can probably include the Panoptics, apparently derived from Erfle's they achieved a level of correction in fast telescopes not possible with the Erfles.

Certainly there are cases of parallel development but I don't believe that the Meade UWA's were a parallel design nor do I believe the ES 100 degree eyepieces were a parallel design nor do I think anyone is making that claim.

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846306 - 05/07/13 06:34 PM

Jon,

Correct.

Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces. It's a classic case of what I mentioned: good designers coming up with good solutions for optical problems and thinking similarly. As the history of Al Nagler himself attests (see the recent and older articles), he designed the eyepiece after figuring out solutions to similar problems elsewhere in his professional career.

And Paul Dellechiaie did the same for the Ethos. Revolutionary, for sure.

Meade's Japanese mfr did solve one problem with the exit pupil of the T1 Nagler by adding an additional lens to their UWA, but it's obvious what the, uh, source of the Meade UWA was. Even the focal lengths were nearly exact copies.
Fast forward to now and the 100 degree eyepieces. Gee, I wonder where those designs came from?

It was mentioned the Delos is an XW copy. Sorry, not. Different glass, different number of elements. Similar eye relief, yeah, and even a similar apparent field. But the Ethos was the parent source and it was a derivative of the Ethos design. I don't think it was accidental it was aimed at the same market niche, but the design is not a copy.


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Shneor
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5846324 - 05/07/13 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

People that buy Televue buy it, because they want to be exclusive and have the best; they don't want everyone else to have it. ES consumers couldn't care less if everyone else have the same.




Strange, I've never met another observer who bought an eyepiece just to feel exclusive. In fact, the very few observers I've met who were snobby about their equipment actually owned rather modest equipment. The people with really nice stuff have been most gracious about sharing the views.

I suspect the vast majority of people who buy Televue do so because TV eyepieces meet their needs and are affordable for them. Some have posted that there exists a "reverse elitism" here on CN; your comments seem to support their contention.




I almost made a post about the same quote as above but my reply was not as nice as your post Paul so I thought better of it. I know Ken(faacanders) personally and I'm guessing he didn't really mean what he said.

Anyways, now I'd better go buy another Televue eyepiece to keep it out of the hands of one of the little people.




I know Ken as well and I'm sure he didn't quite mean it exactly as he stated it. He has both an ES100* (20mm) and an Ethos (10mm) and I am thinking he didn't buy his own Ethos just to feel 'exclusive'!

The one Ethos I have (13mm), I feel quite lucky to have it. No, I didn't win it in a raffle, but the unbeatable package deal that I scored on my dob and a couple EPs including the Ethos (on Craigslist of all places) definitely made me feel like a winner. Would I have been happy with an ES if it didn't come along, sure. I had the 9mm ES 100 and it was great--I think everyone should try a 100* EP if their finances allow.




I said people buy luxury items to be exclusive and have the best (this is straight out of the marketing textbooks). I did not say they were snobs for wanting/having luxury items. People are willing to pay more for things which are rare.

I enjoy my 10mm Ethos which I purcahsed before ES competition. I also enjoy my Explore Scientific 20mm 100 AFOV and believe I have serial number 5 when it first came out. Due to the high power I don't use the 3.7mm Ethos that much except of globular clusters which fill the view. If there was a 120 AFOV 5 or 5.5mm I would likely jump on that to fill my last whole. I enjoy the wide TFOV and also like my 30mm 82 AFOV Meade (but don't like the grease), and 40mm 70 AFOV University Optics MK-70 Koenig as my absolute widest TFOV. In general, I would say I prefer the value eyepieces, but sometimes chose the luxury for where there is no competition.

P.S. I do have two 24mm 68 AFOV panoptics which provide the widest TFOV for my binoviewers for the given OCS's.

P.S.S. Once my brother-in-law showed me a nice "$100 pair of sunglasses" he got. My quick response was "boy you got ripped off mine only cost me a dollar". At first he didn't know what to say, but after thinking said, "Well I guess you got the better deal didn't you". Some buy luxury to keep up with the Jones, and some don't even try.



I have the 9mm ES120*, and as anyone who had observed with me knows, I love to share my views, especially now that ES has stopped the eyepiece down. Looks like only the first 20 have an apparent field of about 140*. That eyepiece is more expensive than the 21mm Ethos by a couple of hundred $$, but it stays in my focuser more than other eyepiece I have, including Ethoi and Delos.
Clears,


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russell23
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5846327 - 05/07/13 06:42 PM

Quote:


It was mentioned the Delos is an XW copy. Sorry, not. Different glass, different number of elements. Similar eye relief, yeah, and even a similar apparent field. But the Ethos was the parent source and it was a derivative of the Ethos design. I don't think it was accidental it was aimed at the same market niche, but the design is not a copy.




I'll second this. Anyone that has looked through both should know that they are not clones. The presentation of a Delos is very different from an XW. I found the Delos to be perform more like the Nikon NAV than like the XW.

Dave


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russell23
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846371 - 05/07/13 07:01 PM

Quote:


If you are OK buying something that has been so blatantly copied, that's your decision. I do think though that it is better to just say one is OK doing it and not try to justify it by saying it benefits us all.

Jon




Jon,

Would you rather the 100 deg AFOV experience be reserved for those with deep pockets only? It goes back to my theme on the other thread. TV has never marketed economy priced widefields. Others have been left to fill that void. Obviously the ES100's are close copies of the Ethos. But do they have the same glass types as the Ethos? Same coatings? Same polish? I doubt it. ES set about the task of taking the Ethos design and offering an economy version of it.

ES has demonstrated that it is possible to offer a quality low cost 100 deg AFOV line. Many people that cannot afford $615+ for an Ethos can reach up to a price of $250-300 to be able to enjoy a quality 100 deg AFOV experience. Why shouldn't that opportunity be made available?

There are companies out there that actually offer economy and premium or higher grade lines of eyepieces.

Dave


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: russell23]
      #5846440 - 05/07/13 07:34 PM

Quote:



Would you rather the 100 deg AFOV experience be reserved for those with deep pockets only?




I get along fine without the "100 degree AFoV experience." It's not like something one must have to enjoy viewing the night sky through a telescope.

I am happy with the eyepieces I have, with the telescopes I have. They're not the best but they do the job. What is important to me is observing, spending time under the night sky.

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5846455 - 05/07/13 07:41 PM

Quote:


Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces.




Don:

I know that sometimes people point to those earlier eyepieces, the Bertele for example. Have you ever looked through a Bertele and evaluated it in comparison to the Nagler's correction in a fast scope? It seems to me that while the prior work had many of the pieces, it probably was not put together in the same well executed design as those original Naglers.

Jon


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MRNUTTY
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5846601 - 05/07/13 08:56 PM

In the reverse engineering business we had a saying; "duplicate exactly, or understand completely". So when I see another product (the x-rays of the TV and ES EP's detailing the gross equivalencies) that has a similar optical architecture but different components, it's clearly a case of "understand completely" in order to bring a competitive product to market. Otherwise it would have been exactly the same. We may not like the ethics of Chinese development in the popular media, but they're no dummies. Many of the Chinese engineers I've worked with are very smart, and very well learned. I doubt they blindly followed TV's example, rather learned from it and worked out a similar solution. After all, its a severely constrained design problem with likely very few workable solutions; no wonder they look similar.

Edited by MRNUTTY (05/07/13 08:57 PM)


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5846924 - 05/07/13 11:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Would you rather the 100 deg AFOV experience be reserved for those with deep pockets only?




I get along fine without the "100 degree AFoV experience." It's not like something one must have to enjoy viewing the night sky through a telescope.

I am happy with the eyepieces I have, with the telescopes I have. They're not the best but they do the job. What is important to me is observing, spending time under the night sky.

Jon




I can get along fine without the 100 deg AFOV experience too. Over 90% of my observing time on 4 consecutive nights this last week was spent with 68 and 70 deg AFOV eyepieces, but the 14mm ES100 added a nice variation to my observing when I was using it. I'm glad ES has provided an affordable quality 100 deg option.

Dave


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847034 - 05/08/13 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces.




Don:

I know that sometimes people point to those earlier eyepieces, the Bertele for example. Have you ever looked through a Bertele and evaluated it in comparison to the Nagler's correction in a fast scope? It seems to me that while the prior work had many of the pieces, it probably was not put together in the same well executed design as those original Naglers.

Jon



I owned many of those earlier eyepiece types. I was an ocularholic, remember?
And it's true. Not only were they not as well-corrected, they had narrower fields of view compared to the Naglers.. That first 13mm Nagler was an, uh, eye opener.


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5847043 - 05/08/13 02:17 AM

Quote:

And take that lawsuit Ibanez guitar with you!
Sam




Say that to Steve Vai . His Ibanez guitar will make you wish you hadn't of said that.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5847115 - 05/08/13 03:35 AM

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




I'm sorry...but the Delos are NOT clones of the XWs...I know as I took my 6mm apart...and it is not even CLOSE to the XW. BTW, the Delos SMOKES the XW on deep sky objects...as the Delos already beats the Ethos...and the Ethos and XW are about the same, giving the Ethos the slightest edge.

Several other very experienced observed confirmed it with a couple large telescopes, not dinky little 6" apos.



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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5847296 - 05/08/13 08:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces.




Don:

I know that sometimes people point to those earlier eyepieces, the Bertele for example. Have you ever looked through a Bertele and evaluated it in comparison to the Nagler's correction in a fast scope? It seems to me that while the prior work had many of the pieces, it probably was not put together in the same well executed design as those original Naglers.

Jon



I owned many of those earlier eyepiece types. I was an ocularholic, remember?
And it's true. Not only were they not as well-corrected, they had narrower fields of view compared to the Naglers.. That first 13mm Nagler was an, uh, eye opener.




Sometimes it seems to me that pointing to eyepieces like the Bertele is an attempt to revise history, an attempt to diminish the significance of those first Naglers. The Naglers really put it all together and upped the ante in just about every possible way.

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Alvin Huey]
      #5847380 - 05/08/13 09:26 AM

Quote:


I'm sorry...but the Delos are NOT clones of the XWs...I know as I took my 6mm apart...and it is not even CLOSE to the XW. BTW, the Delos SMOKES the XW on deep sky objects...as the Delos already beats the Ethos...and the Ethos and XW are about the same, giving the Ethos the slightest edge.

Several other very experienced observed confirmed it with a couple large telescopes, not dinky little 6" apos.






Got a Delos 6mm thinking that the new modern coatings of Delos from TeleVue might be better than the old Pentax (traded the Pentax XW7 in exchange for the Delos 6), thanks for posting your observations that tend to support this presupposition. Love the Delos 6mm, it's an excellent EP!

Best,


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hfjacinto
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847385 - 05/08/13 09:32 AM

The Naglers filled a need that was started by John Dobson, without his Dob design the world now would be filled with long focal length scopes.

TeleVue saw a niche and filled it.

I applaud TeleVue for doing it. What I don't see here is the story of what happens to many companies that fail to keep up with the environment. Look for example at Kodak, they were the leaders in film but as the digital world came about they are almost dead. TeleVue has great products no one can deny that but I thankful that cheaper almost as good products exist. I have 3 ES 100°, without ES I doubt I would have gone up 100°. Televue might still get my business as I now want an eyepiece in the 5mm range, Televue is the only one offering one in that range.

The other comment that wasn't made is that the Ethos are the only brand that has such a wide selection of eyepieces. The ES only has 3 as does the Meade 100° (which no one has mentioned) and the Zhummel, Orion 100° only have 2.

Edited by hfjacinto (05/08/13 09:33 AM)


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5847499 - 05/08/13 10:36 AM

Are there cross-licenses for such technology in this business? Is this even knowable, given that these are all private companies? If licensing agreements exist, then I don't see a conflict at all.

And if they don't, a quick patent search identifies that Al Nagler patented the ultrawide (80-90 degree AFoV) design at the latest 1988. There are related patents as early as 1979. My understanding is that the expiration on the latest patent would have come about 17 years later, or 2005. When did ES, for example, bring their 82º eyepieces to market? I wasn't in the hobby, but suspect it was sometime after 2005.

The designer of the original 100º EPs, who from what I read is/was a protege of Mr. Nagler, does not appear to have patented this design. I cannot think of a reason not to do so, unless it was substantially based on the previous design (aka "prior art") and therefore would not hold up as new technology in patent court. I am not a lawyer - these are just some educated guesses as to how the legalities of the current subject may have played out.

Some may not be swayed by such lines of thinking, as what is "legal" can vary greatly from what some people perceive as "moral" or "just". Those last two items are subjective for many questions. But when confronted with such questions I generally err on the side of favoring competition. Competition benefits consumers, and is one of the driving forces behind moving our society forward.

Am I overstating the importance of amateur astronomy equipment with this last statement? Can the less fortunate among us live without 100º eyepieces? Certainly - by most reasonable definitions these would be classified as luxury items. But the same legal systems also covers medicine, security, transportation, and other technologies that most people's moral code clearly dictates should be generally accessible and not exclusively restricted to those with means. At least after our society judges that the inventors have had the opportunity (17-20 years) to be "adequately compensated" for their innovations.

My thoughts are that the legal system is fair to inventors, and if the products in question stand up to the various tests (these do in my view), then no additional moral justification is required to patronize a company doing "knockoffs" of a proven design. Therefore, a 14mm ES100 is on my short list.

Edited by Jarrod (05/08/13 10:44 AM)


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5847529 - 05/08/13 10:48 AM

Quote:

The Naglers filled a need that was started by John Dobson, without his Dob design the world now would be filled with long focal length scopes.

TeleVue saw a niche and filled it.




I do not think that the Nagler design was a direct result of the Dobsonian. In 1980, Dobs were not that popular and they did not represent a platform that could provide premium views. They were crude, big and heavy. And they were not necessarily as fast as they are today.

My thinking is that the availability of Nagler eyepieces made fast Dobsonians with premium optics possible/reasonable. The result was definitely a good thing for TeleVue but I don't think that TeleVue designed the Nagler with the fast Dob in mind. Maybe someone who knows Uncle Al could shed some light on this.

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847537 - 05/08/13 10:54 AM

Quote:


I don't think that TeleVue designed the Nagler with the fast Dob in mind. Maybe someone who knows Uncle Al could shed some light on this.




Or we could read Mr. Nagler's own comments in the 1988 patent:

"The lens data set forth in the following tables are, in all cases, for eyepieces having a 10 mm. focal length and an 80 to 90 degree field of view. All are well corrected for telecentric input beams as fast as f/4."

What f/4 telescopes existed in 1988? It seems those are what they had in mind.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5847607 - 05/08/13 11:50 AM

Quote:


And if they don't, a quick patent search identifies that Al Nagler patented the ultrawide (80-90 degree AFoV) design at the latest 1988. There are related patents as early as 1979. My understanding is that the expiration on the latest patent would have come about 17 years later, or 2005. When did ES, for example, bring their 82º eyepieces to market? I wasn't in the hobby, but suspect it was sometime after 2005.




ES always offered eyepieces from Jing Hua Optical.

These eyepieces were marketed by Meade, prior to their being available from ES, as the Series 5000 UWA eyepieces. If my memory serves, Meade switched from Japanese to Chinese production around the turn of the century or a little after. The first Chinese focal lengths available matched the focal lengths that had been done by the Japanese prior to that. The later focal lengths added by China--30, 24, 18mm--were similar to focal lengths also offered by TeleVue but with radically different ergonomics.

Meade's Japanese source produced the UWA eyepieces in 14, 8.8, 6.7, and 4.7mm. TeleVue had produced the Naglers in 13, 11, 9, 7, and 4.8mm so you see the, uh, similarity. Meade's UWA eyepieces came out in the mid to late '80s, shortly after TeleVue's appeared on the scenes. They were a little different, internally, and had an extra element. I have no idea whether any legal action was taken, but I doubt it.

It was obvious to all that TeleVue had been copied by the Japanese source of Meade UWAs, and continued when Meade switched over to Chinese production. Jing Hua was a major producer of accessories and telescopes for Meade up to 2011.

A former Meade employee started Explore Scientific to sell products from Jing Hua, and soon thereafter ES became a Jing Hua-owned company. Jing Hua is also known as JOC.

ES has added a focal length, 11mm, to the ensemble (surprise, surprise), as well as adding seals and significantly down-sizing the bulbous and overweight Meades.


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Damo636
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Alvin Huey]
      #5847611 - 05/08/13 11:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




I'm sorry...but the Delos are NOT clones of the XWs...I know as I took my 6mm apart...and it is not even CLOSE to the XW. BTW, the Delos SMOKES the XW on deep sky objects...as the Delos already beats the Ethos...and the Ethos and XW are about the same, giving the Ethos the slightest edge.

Several other very experienced observed confirmed it with a couple large telescopes, not dinky little 6" apos.






My post was meant to be very much "tongue in cheek" Alvin, I'm fully aware they aren't clones
I've owned the 6, 10 & most recently the14 Delos, and would agree with you, they are excellent eyepieces. I still prefer the XW's at the
sharp end though...


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5847613 - 05/08/13 11:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I don't think that TeleVue designed the Nagler with the fast Dob in mind. Maybe someone who knows Uncle Al could shed some light on this.




Or we could read Mr. Nagler's own comments in the 1988 patent:

"The lens data set forth in the following tables are, in all cases, for eyepieces having a 10 mm. focal length and an 80 to 90 degree field of view. All are well corrected for telecentric input beams as fast as f/4."

What f/4 telescopes existed in 1988? It seems those are what they had in mind.




According to the Company 7 Webpage, the original Nagler eyepiece patent was awarded in 1979. The patent you refer to must be a later patent. In 1979, I think F/4 Newtonians were few and far between. I believe fast, wide field refractors were out there. The one scope that comes to mind was TeleVue's own MPT, the 5 inch F/4 Multi-purpose telescope which became available in 1982.

The fact that the Naglers were designed to be well corrected at F/4 does not mean they were designed specifically with F/4 telescopes in mind. After all, they work nicely in most any scope.

Jon


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Jarrod
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5847692 - 05/08/13 12:39 PM

Quote:


It was obvious to all that TeleVue had been copied by the Japanese source of Meade UWAs, and continued when Meade switched over to Chinese production. Jing Hua was a major producer of accessories and telescopes for Meade up to 2011.

A former Meade employee started Explore Scientific to sell products from Jing Hua, and soon thereafter ES became a Jing Hua-owned company. Jing Hua is also known as JOC.




Thanks for the history, it's much appreciated.

I have no doubt that ES and Meade copied the Nagler/Televue designs. I'm only concerned with whether it was done lawfully, or unlawfully.

Based on what you said, I'm unsure about Meade. Without knowing the precise dates, and having the technical knowledge to know precisely which art was copied (I wouldn't be surprised if only a few people in the world have this knowledge), it's impossible to judge. But to play devil's advocate, it could have been that Meade copied the 1981 patent, which would have expired in '01 at the latest.

In any case, ES was established in 2008, 20 years after the most recent (1988) Nagler 80-90º patent was granted. So far I didn't find any patents for the later 100º designs. I'm left to conclude that products marketed by the ES entity were lawfully "derived" from the Nagler/Televue designs.

To some, this will still seem distasteful. I equate it to using generic pharmaceuticals. In fact, generic pharmaceuticals are even worse, because they are *exact* copies of the original proprietary molecule. And pharma companies only effectively get 7-12 years of patent protection because they must apply for protection before clinical trials, which can "burn" up to a decade of the protection even before FDA approval is granted.

In the Meade case there was at least some effort made to offer slightly different focal lengths. Whether that was done only to avoid lawsuits, or to offer more choices, I won't even speculate without knowing the exact timeline and which prior patent art the Meade designs were derived from. It could be either, or both. And I can definitely see how the specifics of this question could color one's judgement of the situation!

In any case, I've not uncovered any evidence that leads me to believe that ES, as a company, has done anything to bend these rules. They appear to be guilty only of being capitalists. Similarly, any products Meade has derived after 2008 should be "clean" in this sense.


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watcher
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847694 - 05/08/13 12:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Al Nagler designed the first Nagler eyepiece de novo and discovered years later that others (in history) had used negative lenses in their eyepieces.




Don:

I know that sometimes people point to those earlier eyepieces, the Bertele for example. Have you ever looked through a Bertele and evaluated it in comparison to the Nagler's correction in a fast scope? It seems to me that while the prior work had many of the pieces, it probably was not put together in the same well executed design as those original Naglers.

Jon



I owned many of those earlier eyepiece types. I was an ocularholic, remember?
And it's true. Not only were they not as well-corrected, they had narrower fields of view compared to the Naglers.. That first 13mm Nagler was an, uh, eye opener.




Sometimes it seems to me that pointing to eyepieces like the Bertele is an attempt to revise history, an attempt to diminish the significance of those first Naglers. The Naglers really put it all together and upped the ante in just about every possible way.

Jon




And ES got it together at a price point. I wouldn't diminish that accomplishment either.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847746 - 05/08/13 01:12 PM

Quote:

According to the Company 7 Webpage, the original Nagler eyepiece patent was awarded in 1979.





Yes, that is the patent I referred earlier as "the 1981 patent". Patent protection for the original invention was applied for in Nov '79 and was pending until issued in Sept '81.

Nagler said this in the '79-'81 patent:

"It is a further object of the invention to provide an ultrawide angle eyepiece which has uniform sharpness over the entire field of view for relative apertures as fast as f/4."

So it appears that he always had f/4 in mind, even before Nov 1979.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5847753 - 05/08/13 01:18 PM

Quote:

I have no doubt that ES and Meade copied the Nagler/Televue designs. I'm only concerned with whether it was done lawfully, or unlawfully.




Jarrod:

My understanding is that this is what happened:

TeleVue patented the Nagler design in 1979 and sometime about 1981 began marketing the first Naglers. With the design readily available in the patent office, Meade took that design, made a small change and began producing their own UWAs.

With the Ethos, I speculate that TeleVue realized that a patent could not protect the design and chose not to bother with the patent. Looking at the side by side Xray of the Ethos and ES eyepiece, it appears to me that the ES eyepiece was a direct copy of the Ethos design. Without a patent, it would seem to have been legal but there are plenty of things that are legal that I choose to avoid.

That sort of thing bothers me. As I said previously, when Compaq cloned the original IBM PC bios and opened up the world of the PC Clone, they did it in the most careful way. They reverse engineered the Bios from the "black box" specifications using engineers that had no knowledge of the IBM bios. That stood the legal test. At that same time, small vendors would simply use an Eprom (I think) burner and just copy an existing IBM bios. This was illegal but of course they were small and got away with it.

In this case, the Compaq "Green room" approach would have been for JOC to look at the performance specifications of the Ethos and then without knowing internal design of the Ethos, design their own eyepiece. This does not seem to have happened.

Without knowing the particulars, I do think the UWANs are closer to a Green Room design that the various JOC eyepieces, the 28mm UWAN is a decent performer but not a Nagler...

So, we can each make our own decision based on the how we see things. Personally, I have the eyepieces I need, I have had them since before the arrival of the ES eyepieces. This is a hobby, eyepieces are toys, I can afford to take the high road.

Jon


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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847768 - 05/08/13 01:26 PM

Who cares about TV ??????????????????????

Oh noes.....I just dogged TV.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5847778 - 05/08/13 01:32 PM

Quote:


So it appears that he always had f/4 in mind, even before Nov 1979.




The eyepiece was well corrected at F/4, that is all that says.

Maybe Don can share his memories of the Dobsonian revolution... I was not an amateur astronomer during the 80's so it's history to me. But from what I have seen, in 1979 when the Naglers were designed, the SCT revolution was going strong but the Dobsonian revolution had not yet begun. Large Newtonians were still Equatorially mounted and of what we think of today as moderate focal ratios.

My 12.5 inch Meade from 1979 is F/6, Caves and such were sometimes 12.5 inch F/8's

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5847784 - 05/08/13 01:35 PM

Jon,

Quote:

".... I can afford to take the high road."




This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?

And while I love TV Eyepieces, I see no 120* or 25MM Ethos. I guess those are ok? Are where they copied also?


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5847828 - 05/08/13 01:55 PM

Quote:

This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?




I have gone to some length to explain why I am uncomfortable with the ES 100 degree eyepieces and I have chosen not to buy them. I hope that is clear.

I also said that we each need to make the decision based on how we see things. Again, I am just explaining my thoughts, how I feel.

If you were me in my shoes, think how I think, feel how I feel, then the purchasing the ES eyepieces would represent taking the low road, that's all, please don't read into it more than is there.

Jon


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Jarrod
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5847831 - 05/08/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:


So it appears that he always had f/4 in mind, even before Nov 1979.




The eyepiece was well corrected at F/4, that is all that says.





We'll have to agree to disagree. The 1979 comment "It is a further object of the invention..." means more to me than an observational statement that they are well-corrected to f/4. Whether that was with dobs in mind is an entirely separate question...

Quote:

With the design readily available in the patent office, Meade took that design, made a small change and began producing their own UWAs.

With the Ethos, I speculate that TeleVue realized that a patent could not protect the design and chose not to bother with the patent. Looking at the side by side Xray of the Ethos and ES eyepiece, it appears to me that the ES eyepiece was a direct copy of the Ethos design. Without a patent, it would seem to have been legal but there are plenty of things that are legal that I choose to avoid.




I absolutely understand and respect that sentiment. And if I interpreted you correctly, it does sound like the Japanese Meade UWAs were on very shaky ground while that original Nagler patent was still in effect...

As you speculated, perhaps TV tried and failed to enforce that patent and that's why they chose not to spend the money and effort to protect the 100º design. In fact, by *not* patenting the specifics of each lens element they may have made it at least marginally more expensive and/or difficult to reverse-engineer the design. At least the copiers would have had to precisely measure everything first, as opposed to just reading it off the patent.

Anyway, I do appreciate the history lesson. Interesting stuff.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5847849 - 05/08/13 02:05 PM

Quote:

The designer of the original 100º EPs, who from what I read is/was a protege of Mr. Nagler, does not appear to have patented this design. I cannot think of a reason not to do so, unless it was substantially based on the previous design (aka "prior art") and therefore would not hold up as new technology in patent court. I am not a lawyer - these are just some educated guesses as to how the legalities of the current subject may have played out.




That wasn't the reason. The original Naglers were almost immediately knocked off by Meade. The saying at the time was "Meade eyepieces, designed by lawyers." The design was patented, giving Meade the specifics of the design. TeleVue decided that patenting their design didn't serve them well, and it looks like their subsequent approach worked well for them. TV came out with the T2, T4, T5, T6 Naglers, Panoptics, Radians and Meade had no answer. And it took ES two years after the first Ethos to bring their knockoff to market.

Trying to defend a patent against a Chinese company is very expensive and an exercise in futility.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5847892 - 05/08/13 02:24 PM

Quote:

Jon,

Quote:

".... I can afford to take the high road."




This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?

And while I love TV Eyepieces, I see no 120* or 25MM Ethos. I guess those are ok? Are where they copied also?




+1

ES took the original Ethos design, and likely played with glass types, coatings, added waterproofing to develop a quality low cost alternative for those that cannot afford an Ethos. TV isn't marketing economy priced widefields. I fail to see why it is taking a low road to purchase from a company that is.

Dave


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csrlice12
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: russell23]
      #5847962 - 05/08/13 03:02 PM

See what happens when you base everything on currency instead of usefulness? Ah, the insanity of it all.

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MikeRatcliff
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: russell23]
      #5848036 - 05/08/13 03:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Jon,

Quote:

".... I can afford to take the high road."




This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?

And while I love TV Eyepieces, I see no 120* or 25MM Ethos. I guess those are ok? Are where they copied also?




+1

ES took the original Ethos design, and likely played with glass types, coatings, added waterproofing to develop a quality low cost alternative for those that cannot afford an Ethos. TV isn't marketing economy priced widefields. I fail to see why it is taking a low road to purchase from a company that is.

Dave




I'm 100% in agreement with Jon. Although apparently legal, I'm uncomfortable with ES's predatory behavior. Not to mention the behavior of their home country in general. There will be no ES in my equipment boxes. You are free to do as you want.

Mike


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5848118 - 05/08/13 04:17 PM

+1.

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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5848125 - 05/08/13 04:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:


So it appears that he always had f/4 in mind, even before Nov 1979.




The eyepiece was well corrected at F/4, that is all that says.

Maybe Don can share his memories of the Dobsonian revolution... I was not an amateur astronomer during the 80's so it's history to me. But from what I have seen, in 1979 when the Naglers were designed, the SCT revolution was going strong but the Dobsonian revolution had not yet begun. Large Newtonians were still Equatorially mounted and of what we think of today as moderate focal ratios.

My 12.5 inch Meade from 1979 is F/6, Caves and such were sometimes 12.5 inch F/8's

Jon



TeleVue made sure their eyepieces would work well in the short f/ratio refractors they were starting to make and in future telescopes. Correcting to f/4 just means that f/4 won't induce all sorts of unpleasant issues in the eyepiece.
I would also note that "working to f/4" doesn't mean "canceling all f/4 aberrations". The Paracorr didn't come out until 1989, when big, fast, dobs were beginning to appear all over the place. Any TeleVue eyepiece used in an f/4 newtonian scope prior to that time would have had horrible edge-of-field stars. And short f/ratio refractors have terrible field curvature, which eyepieces don't cure.

When the Paracorr came out and coma was tamed in the fast newtonians, then and only then was it possible to see what other aberrations were present, like astigmatism and field curvature, etc. I remember Al Nagler telling me the use of a Paracorr in a big, fast, dob was what convinced him the WideField Series TeleVue was selling at the time had too much astigmatism. Back to the drawing board and the Panoptic line was born, with astigmatism well-controlled. Doesn't mean they were flawless, just that the Paracorr revealed some things formerly hidden by coma.

I had the same experience when finally adding a Paracorr to my f/5 dob and discovering the 35 Panoptic had some field curvature. I had always wondered why the coma was so bad in that eyepiece (I thought, "How can anyone tolerate the coma at f/5? It's HORRIBLE!"), and I learned that the comatic star image had been expanded by the defocusing of field curvature. When the coma was gone, I could see that, and learned to focus about half-way between center and edge so my eye could accommodate the diopter changes needed to see the whole field in focus.

It taught me an important lesson: the aberrated star image at the edge of a field isn't distorted by only one aberration--often it's a combination of things. Coma isn't a horrendous aberration if it's ALL that's wrong with the edge of the field. Using very high-end eyepieces with no astigmatism or field curvature in a 16" f/4.5 taught me that once again. The edge wasn't really all that bad. It really depends on the eyepiece how bad coma appears. It's not GONE with well-corrected eyepieces at that f/ratio, but I can see it might be quite tolerable to some.

I've spent a lot of time looking through big apo refractors, though, or high-end Rumak Maksutovs, etc. I've been spoiled by seeing stars at the edge of the field that were just as sharp and small as in the center of the field. A Paracorr at f/5, combined with well-corrected eyepieces, allowed me to achieve that in a larger, and more-affordable, newtonian.

I regularly observe on a high mountain with a large group of people from all over SoCal, and I've seen a substantial evolution since the late '70s. In the '80s, the average observer drove up in a compact car and took an 8" or 10" SCT out of the trunk. In the '90s, the SCT evolved into a dob for the visual observer, or an EQ-mounted refractor for the astrophotographer. And the vehicles became vans or mini-vans. In the '00s, the astrophotographers either went to RCs or CDKs or huge SCTs or large apo refractors and the visual observers started moving into dobs up to 32". The vehicles changed to RVs of some sort--either a camper or a motorhome. Along the way, I noticed that many of the astronomers were the same people, just grayer and with larger incomes.
Now, an increasing number are retired and making less-frequent trips to the mountains because of the price of gas and because of a lesser desire to observe under really cold conditions (it can get to freezing at altitude in August!). I'm only 62, but already seeing this change in myself--I go to the desert (especially in the winter) a lot more than I used to because a nighttime low of 25 is better than zero.

Because I'm a visual observer, and have progressed through over 300 eyepieces over the years, in the '00s I started pursuing the ultimate eyepieces. As you age you begin to think of things as "this will be the last X I buy, so I better make it a good one". Unfortunately, my "ultimate" eyepieces seem to be continually supplanted by "more ultimate" eyepieces. To get back to the subject matter of the original post, the 21 Ethos was the last Ethos I wanted to buy. I typically use shorter eyepieces more, and besides, I owned a 31 Nagler (it had replaced the earlier 35 Panoptic for exit pupil and field size reasons).
So I borrowed a friend's (just like I borrowed a friend's 13 Nagler back in 1983 or so) 21 Ethos and decided that it could complement the 31 Nagler without offending any sense of propriety. Now, as I get older, and my pupil diameter continues to shrink, that 21 looks like it may be my "ultimate" low-power eyepiece. But those may be the "famous last words of a fool".

My younger friends may not have gotten to that point in life, or think in terms of "what's the best I can buy?", and I understand that. I suppose, in real measure, I never would have ended up with the eyepieces I have now if I hadn't made that long trip through a myriad of other types over the years. I'm designing a new "grab'n'go" telescope for home use, too, and I want to use the same eyepieces, which just reinforces the old dictum: "Telescopes come and go, but eyepieces are forever".

I apologize for the ramble. Hopefully, it will be relevant for someone.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5848242 - 05/08/13 05:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Jon,

Quote:

".... I can afford to take the high road."




This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?

And while I love TV Eyepieces, I see no 120* or 25MM Ethos. I guess those are ok? Are where they copied also?




+1

ES took the original Ethos design, and likely played with glass types, coatings, added waterproofing to develop a quality low cost alternative for those that cannot afford an Ethos. TV isn't marketing economy priced widefields. I fail to see why it is taking a low road to purchase from a company that is.

Dave




I'm 100% in agreement with Jon. Although apparently legal, I'm uncomfortable with ES's predatory behavior. Not to mention the behavior of their home country in general. There will be no ES in my equipment boxes. You are free to do as you want.

Mike




Fair enough Mike. I just don't see the point in anyone claiming some moral high ground over eyepiece purchases.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman1]
      #5848246 - 05/08/13 05:17 PM

Quote:

I apologize for the ramble. Hopefully, it will be relevant for someone.




Don:

I thank you for sharing that..

I wasn't around in the early 80s, I have gleaned what I know from the scopes that were/are available during that period, old magazines and folks like yourself...

My first serious scope was an old Orange tube SCT, that was in the early 90's. I was on a tight budget, had 3 boys to put through school and college. I had 4 eyepieces, all Plossls, and a Barlow. I had a lot of fun.

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5848302 - 05/08/13 05:42 PM

Quote:

I'm 100% in agreement with Jon. Although apparently legal, I'm uncomfortable with ES's predatory behavior. Not to mention the behavior of their home country in general. There will be no ES in my equipment boxes. You are free to do as you want.

Mike




Same here. It's the same reason I avoided Meade products, didn't like their predatory business practices. I would rather wait and save up than buy a cheaper product from a company like JOC. As an owner of a small business I can appreciate the problems faced by small businesses when large foreign corporations come in and use predatory pricing to try to kill off the competition.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5848309 - 05/08/13 05:44 PM

Because they are made with Unobtainium glass? I've looked through one, but the prices is waayyyyy more than I am willing to pay. I would sooner go with Naglers but the ES line of 82 degree eyepieces proved to be exactly what I was looking for, so I opted for those. I just cannot see paying nearly as much for one eyepiece than what you could spend on a 12-inch mass produced Dob. If I had a 30-inch Dob or some other really expensive large telescope, yes $895.00 doesn't look so bad, but compared to even the 15-inch Dob I built, that is a lot of money for one eyepiece. Those who can afford them are getting their money's worth, but fortunately there are good choices for those who cannot afford, or justify that price. I personally find 100 degree eyepieces to be less comfortable to look into that either the Tele Vue Naglers or the ES 82 degree eyepieces. The views are very good, but I find apparent fields of view from about 68 to 84 degrees to be just right for me.

Taras


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5848486 - 05/08/13 07:03 PM

I don't think the modern uber-wide designs are revolutionary. No current eyepiece design is not, at least, anticipated by prior art designs.

I think the revolutionary aspect has more to do with manufacturing than design. With the maturity of the optics industry (built largely on the back of complex camera lenses, not astronomical optics), it has recently become feasible economically and technologically to mass-produce exotic designs that are in part based on designs conceived of decades ago at a time where implementation was almost an impossibility.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5848495 - 05/08/13 07:11 PM

"Certainly there are cases of parallel development but I don't believe that the Meade UWA's were a parallel design nor do I believe the ES 100 degree eyepieces were a parallel design nor do I think anyone is making that claim."

I guess it's a big "so what"? The Nagler and Ethos designs, too, have roots in other designs dating back to the 1960s and maybe before.

In the Meade case, Televue has a patent or two covering the Nagler. They didn't enforce it against Meade. Why? Could have been concerns about cost, or it could have been concerns about the validity and enforceability of the patent. Notice that there are no patents covering the Ethos. Patent protection requires the applicant to establish that the design in novel, useful and non-obvious based on prior designs in the same field.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5848500 - 05/08/13 07:15 PM

Quote:

I don't think the modern uber-wide designs are revolutionary. No current eyepiece design is not, at least, anticipated by prior art designs.

I think the revolutionary aspect has more to do with manufacturing than design. With the maturity of the optics industry (built largely on the back of complex camera lenses, not astronomical optics), it has recently become feasible economically and technologically to mass-produce exotic designs that are in part based on designs conceived of decades ago at a time where implementation was almost an impossibility.

Regards,

Jim




Jim:

I have to disagree. The Nagler's were revolutionary, not only did they offer a wider field of view than previous designs, it was also corrected better in fast telescopes than other designs. I think it was the design that really took the widefield eyepiece to another level. In retrospect, it is possible to point to other eyepieces but it's only in retrospect that the similarity can be seen.

I do not think anyone actually thought eyepieces like the Naglers were actually possible, no one else was moving in that direction at the time and yet now, quality widefield eyepieces can trace their linage back to the Naglers and Panoptics and now the Ethos's...

Jon


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5848559 - 05/08/13 07:43 PM

"TeleVue decided that patenting their design didn't serve them well, and it looks like their subsequent approach worked well for them."

"Trying to defend a patent against a Chinese company is very expensive and an exercise in futility."

Neither of these statements make a lick of sense IMO. First, Televue went to the trouble of getting nagler patents yet elected NOT to enforce them against Meade. The logical conclusion is that Televue thought it would lose such a suit. Reasons one loses a patent suit are numerous, but the big two are (a) your patent is valid but not infringed by the other guy's design or (b) your patent is invalid. Because Televue rolled over and showed its belly to Meade we'll never know for sure why it gave Meade a "pass" but concluding that Meade somehow did something wrong is ridiculous. It is just as likely, given these facts, that Televue's patent was weak or Meade design innovative enough over Televues that Televue had no case.

Second, clearly the approach hasn't worked so well for them. ES is a viscous competitor. each sale made by ES is a sale lost by Televue or pretty nearly. From an economic perspective, failing to exclude ES from the 100-degree game is something of a disaster IMO.

With respect to enforcing a patent against a Chinese company, it's no harder than enforcing a patent against an American company, frankly, so long as that Chinese company depends on the US and treaty-partner markets for selling the infringing article. It doesn't take seizure and destruction of too many shipping containers full of costly-to-make optics to make infringement unattractive economically. If you hold a patent, you are not "defending". You are enforcing it. The guy you're suing is defending. The US has jurisdiction over ES and JOC because ES is based here and JOC is doing substantial business and therefore has substantial contacts with the US. The benefit of a patent really isn't collection of money damages but rather the ability to exclude a competitor from prime markets.

Again, it's just as likely that Televue didn't obtain an Ethos patent because it couldn't (i.e., the invention was not sufficiently innovative over past designs to warrant a patent) as it is that they had worries about being able to effectively use it to exclude aggressive competition.

Regards,

Jim


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Paul G]
      #5848610 - 05/08/13 08:10 PM

JOC's total capitalization is $15 million. That includes all subsidiaries and non-astronomical sports and medical optics too. Do you really think JOC is bigger than Televue? I don't.

JOC also has 30 patents (though some are design patents, which "don't count"), and invests 5% of its gross annual revenues in R&D. To me it looks like Televue has gotten a little complacent and didn't anticipate aggressive competition from China. Competition improves the breed. Perhaps JOC will force Televue to shed its complacency 15 and get back into fightin' trim.

- Jim

Edited by jrbarnett (05/08/13 08:16 PM)


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5848622 - 05/08/13 08:19 PM

Jon:

I don't think we know if the original Nagler design was any better corrected in fast scopes than, say, a Scidmore design. The reason is that when Scidmore penned his design, no one could economically manufacture it. That was my point. Televue waited until such designs were commercially and technologically viable to bring its own spin on the "ultrawide" design class to market.

- Jim


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5848632 - 05/08/13 08:24 PM

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Couldn't have said it better, but I am more a value person (except when there is no other option).


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MRNUTTY]
      #5848645 - 05/08/13 08:28 PM

Quote:

Jon, while on the surface, that's a notable sentiment, reverse engineering is a valid path to innovation. Perhaps the benefit isn't immmediate, but inevitably it leads to better products. Some would say the benefit is immediate; lower prices.

You just can't stand still in today's tech world. TV shouldn't expect to be divorced from what is happening to everyone else investing in proprietary solutions; competition.

Perhaps, from working it high-tech all my life reverse engineering is just natural.

You don't have to buy it, but don't condemn others decisions to. We've all benefitted from someone's reverse engineering in many areas of product manufacture; it can't be denied.





Patents only last so long. Televue should have patented their revolutionary Ethos design to limit profiting from reverse engineering but it still wouldn't have stopped the 120 AFOV design.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5848657 - 05/08/13 08:36 PM

Quote:


It is also clear that TeleVue was aware that the current patent protection system had not been sufficient in the case of the Naglers, it only made copying the design easier.





Then TV did not take advantage of the legal protection patents provide (for 82 AFOV) namely lawsuits for copying teir design and getting them to stop and pay damages (get them to not do that again.

Shame on TV for not caring enough to protect their design. It was their choice. If there is a next time, I bet they will patent if they can.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5848683 - 05/08/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

"TeleVue decided that patenting their design didn't serve them well, and it looks like their subsequent approach worked well for them."

"Trying to defend a patent against a Chinese company is very expensive and an exercise in futility."

Neither of these statements make a lick of sense IMO. First, Televue went to the trouble of getting nagler patents yet elected NOT to enforce them against Meade. The logical conclusion is that Televue thought it would lose such a suit. Reasons one loses a patent suit are numerous, but the big two are (a) your patent is valid but not infringed by the other guy's design or (b) your patent is invalid. Because Televue rolled over and showed its belly to Meade we'll never know for sure why it gave Meade a "pass" but concluding that Meade somehow did something wrong is ridiculous. It is just as likely, given these facts, that Televue's patent was weak or Meade design innovative enough over Televues that Televue had no case.




I'm sure that's part of it. Meade split one of the elements and altered the focal lengths slightly so it certainly wouldn't be a slam dunk; spending a fortune on lawyers with the possibility they might not prevail wouldn't necessarily be in TV's best interests. TV was ready to release the T2's so they may have been more concerned with protecting their new design.

Quote:

Second, clearly the approach hasn't worked so well for them. ES is a viscous competitor. each sale made by ES is a sale lost by Televue or pretty nearly.




It worked well for many years. Meade did not answer the T2, T4, T5, T6, Panoptic, or Radian. ES has changed the landscape.


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Starman1
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5848689 - 05/08/13 08:47 PM

Quote:

"TeleVue decided that patenting their design didn't serve them well, and it looks like their subsequent approach worked well for them."

"Trying to defend a patent against a Chinese company is very expensive and an exercise in futility."

Neither of these statements make a lick of sense IMO. First, Televue went to the trouble of getting Nagler patents yet elected NOT to enforce them against Meade.




Not really. What TeleVue had was a design patent, and Meade changed the internals just enough to get around the patent, such as separating a singlet lens into a doublet and narrowing the field of view.
Quote:


The logical conclusion is that Televue thought it would lose such a suit. Reasons one loses a patent suit are numerous, but the big two are (a) your patent is valid but not infringed by the other guy's design or (b) your patent is invalid. Because Televue rolled over and showed its belly to Meade we'll never know for sure why it gave Meade a "pass" but concluding that Meade somehow did something wrong is ridiculous.




The reason was (a) and Meade did purposely have the TeleVue eyepieces copied. I know that for a fact.
Quote:


It is just as likely, given these facts, that Televue's patent was weak or Meade design innovative enough over Televues that Televue had no case.




Well, it was a little different, and suing would have cost the fledgling company a lot of money it didn't have, and the case might have been lost. At the time, Meade was the 300-lb gorilla in the astro world.
Quote:


Second, clearly the approach hasn't worked so well for them. ES is a vicious competitor. Each sale made by ES is a sale lost by Televue or pretty nearly. From an economic perspective, failing to exclude ES from the 100-degree game is something of a disaster IMO.




Perhaps, in one perspective. In another, they aren't the same customer. There are visible differences. People buy the Zeiss Abbe Orthoscopic even though it is only slightly better than much cheaper offerings. The same is true of TeleVue. I'm the classic example--show me the 100 degree eyepiece that is superior to TeleVue and I'll buy it, even if it costs twice what TeleVue costs.
Quote:


With respect to enforcing a patent against a Chinese company, it's no harder than enforcing a patent against an American company, frankly, so long as that Chinese company depends on the US and treaty-partner markets for selling the infringing article. It doesn't take seizure and destruction of too many shipping containers full of costly-to-make optics to make infringement unattractive economically. If you hold a patent, you are not "defending". You are enforcing it. The guy you're suing is defending. The US has jurisdiction over ES and JOC because ES is based here and JOC is doing substantial business and therefore has substantial contacts with the US. The benefit of a patent really isn't collection of money damages but rather the ability to exclude a competitor from prime markets.




Good luck with that. I worked for over 30 years in an industry rife with patent and trademark violations, yet not one case in 100 actually went as far as a seizure of product, let alone a litigation. Why? Because the profit margin wasn't high enough to support a suit. And here's the kicker: the margin in that business was 2.5-3X as high as the astronomy business.
Quote:


Again, it's just as likely that Televue didn't obtain an Ethos patent because it couldn't (i.e., the invention was not sufficiently innovative over past designs to warrant a patent) as it is likely that they had worries about being able to effectively use it to exclude aggressive competition.
Regards,
Jim



Perhaps. More likely, the ability to reverse-engineer an exact copy would have been easier if the patent design and materials list had been published. And the cost of gaining a patent is very high, now. I just tried to trademark my company's name and the costs were more than I could afford. And patents are WAY more expensive because they involve
lots of search and investigation time. And if you KNOW something will be quickly copied, but you think the market for the product is smallish, you'll try to get to market first and get the lion's share of the sales before the copies appear. And perhaps that philosophy has some validity, given that 5 of the focal lengths have yet to be copied, and one of the competitor's products had its price cut in half.


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faackanders2
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Illinois]
      #5848692 - 05/08/13 08:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Buy the ES 9-14-20 100 degree set for less than the Ethos 21 and be done with it!




Very nice!

But you have three 14mm eyepieces?




14mm were the widest TFOV 1.25" eyepeieces ES made, I got them also (but wished they would have had 16mm or 18mm 1.25" 82 AFOV instead. I also have a Meade 14mm 82 AFOV which would have been too heavy to get a second one for my binoviewers. Normally I try not to duplicate power nor AFOV but lightweight eyepieces for binoviewers were the exception.


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FishInPercolator
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5848693 - 05/08/13 08:49 PM

sheesh... I could not have anticipated this...



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faackanders2
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: jrbarnett]
      #5848706 - 05/08/13 08:54 PM

Quote:


...Personally, I'd cut Televue and ES both some slack in this regard. After all, Televue *could* have patented the Ethos and then excluded ES from the US and other markets covered by US patent treaty. Perhaps the cost of obtaining and then enforcing a patent was more than the cost of losing some sales to ES for its similar design.

...

- Jim




+1, but the cost of lost sales was probably more than what the cost of the patent would have been (especialy if they won a big lawsuit). But then I would have fewer eyepieces or eyepiece options.


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faackanders2
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #5848739 - 05/08/13 09:15 PM

Quote:

...
To some, this will still seem distasteful. I equate it to using generic pharmaceuticals. In fact, generic pharmaceuticals are even worse, because they are *exact* copies of the original proprietary molecule. And pharma companies only effectively get 7-12 years of patent protection because they must apply for protection before clinical trials, which can "burn" up to a decade of the protection even before FDA approval is granted.





Patents were never intended to provide an unlimited monopoly, just to provide protection for a limited time so inventors could recoupe their cost of development etc (which is significantly more than reverse engineering); otherwise businesses wouldn't stand a chance.

There are many cases where the first inventor went out of the business becuae they felt it was too costly, and competitors picked up where they left off.


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5848769 - 05/08/13 09:24 PM

Quote:

Jon,

Quote:

".... I can afford to take the high road."




This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?

And while I love TV Eyepieces, I see no 120* or 25MM Ethos. I guess those are ok? Are where they copied also?




+1. But if he hasn't acted/purchased his opinion hasn't helped TV that much. Put your money where your mouth is, and then your opinion counts more (especially to TV).


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FishInPercolator
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5848787 - 05/08/13 09:29 PM

Thanks guys for all your input... I just purchased the 21mm TV for my Galileoscope with a 10% discount!

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faackanders2
Carpal Tunnel


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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #5848813 - 05/08/13 09:36 PM

Quote:

Thanks guys for all your input... I just purchased the 21mm TV for my Galileoscope with a 10% discount!




You could also get a 3" 100 AFOV for you galileoscope, but you would need to get a larger focuser and some counter weight.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5849084 - 05/08/13 11:30 PM

Quote:



+1. But if he hasn't acted/purchased his opinion hasn't helped TV that much. Put your money where your mouth is, and then your opinion counts more (especially to TV).




I have put "my money where my mouth is." I own a set of 8 Nagler eyepieces ranging from the 31mm to the 3.5mm as well as a couple Panoptics and three Widefields. They are all fine eyepieces in their own right and I enjoy observing with them. I have also put "my money where my mouth is" by choosing not to take advantage of those low, low ES sale prices... It was tempting.

Regarding the purchase of the 21mm Ethos, at this time, it's just not of interest. I am not one of those guys who has to have the latest and greatest eyepiece... I have all the equipment I need.

Jon Isaacs


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cukleti
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: faackanders2]
      #5849088 - 05/08/13 11:32 PM

I asked this question to myself many many times. Best way I understood is this..a Nissan GTR can beat more than 90% of sport cars. Including Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, R8, Bentley etc. its an excellent car, However, at the end or the day, I want my *BLEEP* in a Bentley or Lamborghini

I had the ES 9, 14, and 20mm 100 degree eyepieces. Absolutely outstanding. It wasn't until I saw M13 and thought..WOW what a difference. By difference I don't mean jaw dropping day and night, but enough to say, yes the Ethos is better. I found that the sky was darker, and the objects I looked at, had excellent contrast differentials.

You really have to look for the differences. The 13 ethos is cool cause it can do both 1.25 and 2".

In terms of the price..well in reality, a Porsche costs 150k ( for a good one)..and a Bentley costs?

That's my point

Also, the 21mm is better than the ES 25mm


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amicus sidera
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: hfjacinto]
      #5849423 - 05/09/13 08:13 AM

Quote:

hfjacinto wrote:

The Naglers filled a need that was started by John Dobson, without his Dob design the world now would be filled with long focal length scopes.




Somehow, I don't think so...


Quote:

Jarrod wrote:

What f/4 telescopes existed in 1988?




Edmund Scientific offered two f/4 reflectors on GE mounts: a 4-1/4" and a 6". These were first offered in 1979 and were available throughout the 1980's. I'm fairly certain that there were instruments from other manufacturers available in this focal ratio during this period.


Quote:

Jon Isaacs wrote:

In 1979, I think F/4 Newtonians were few and far between




Yes, likely few, but they were extant. See above.


As for the Meade/Nagler debate, my own experience at the time (late 1980's) was that almost every observer that I knew, or knew of, who owned a Nagler 13mm or 9mm proceeded to sell them off in favor of the Meade 14mm or 8.8mm UWA, once they viewed through them; notice that I wrote "observer", not "eyepiece collector" . I myself found them to be a superior design, although admittedly not by much.

The Ethos are assuredly fine oculars; are they worth their asking price? That is an entirely personal matter, to be decided by the dictates of one's pocketbook, observing requirements - and ego.

Fred


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t.r.
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: MikeRatcliff]
      #5849450 - 05/09/13 08:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Jon,

Quote:

".... I can afford to take the high road."




This is pretty condescending, are you saying that all of us that buy ES are taking the "low road"

You don't even own Ethos, so why attack those that buy ES 100?

And while I love TV Eyepieces, I see no 120* or 25MM Ethos. I guess those are ok? Are where they copied also?




+1

ES took the original Ethos design, and likely played with glass types, coatings, added waterproofing to develop a quality low cost alternative for those that cannot afford an Ethos. TV isn't marketing economy priced widefields. I fail to see why it is taking a low road to purchase from a company that is.

Dave




I'm 100% in agreement with Jon. Although apparently legal, I'm uncomfortable with ES's predatory behavior. Not to mention the behavior of their home country in general. There will be no ES in my equipment boxes. You are free to do as you want.

Mike




Ya know, this "High Road" argument would have more weight to me if TV didn't outsource their manufacturing and relied on American workers instead for production and kept all the money (taxation, fees, costs) here in the states. As is, the "High Road" philosophy that TV is somehow superior is flawed. I love Uncle Al to death for what he has brought to the hobby and own many of his products, but he has gone the way of many businesses (overseas!) in order to maximize profit and reduce expenses. In fact, this probably eased the pirating of his designs. If anyone really wanted to take the "High Road" they should buy Brandons, Astro-Physics and TEC!!! Huh, what do ya know, I've purchased all three!


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ThreeD
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5849703 - 05/09/13 10:22 AM

Quote:


If anyone really wanted to take the "High Road" they should buy Brandons, Astro-Physics and TEC!!! Huh, what do ya know, I've purchased all three!


Wow, quite a US centric view there that does quite work for everyone here. While not everyone agrees with the intellectual property argument at least it works everywhere.

Furthermore, if we should only buy from those three companies then I would suggest the number of people with scopes would drop precipitously. I know I would be priced out of the hobby. Then again, you are entitled to your opinion.


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t.r.
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: ThreeD]
      #5849938 - 05/09/13 12:31 PM

Apparently, you didn't get the 'tongue in cheek" graemlin. I wasn't serious. The whole Brandon thing is a running joke here. I have no opinion about what people should or shouldn't buy, if it is legally available...it was others who brought this issue up. I simply challenge the "high road" mentality and don't buy into it.

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csrlice12
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5849983 - 05/09/13 12:51 PM

Brandons.....Drink!

They are good eyepieces though.


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Teal'c
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5850003 - 05/09/13 01:01 PM

Quote:

Brandons.....Drink!

They are good eyepieces though.




I just couldn't warm up to these eyepieces. Maybe it was my scopes? maybe is was the atmosphere?.....or, maybe it was just me


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csrlice12
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Teal'c]
      #5850183 - 05/09/13 02:46 PM

While the Pentax XWs are top of the line planetaries, I'm finding in my 102XLT, I prefer their lighter brothers, the Vixen NLVs, great eye relief AND great views.

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John Rhodes
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: t.r.]
      #5850369 - 05/09/13 04:12 PM

Quote:


Ya know, this "High Road" argument would have more weight to me if TV didn't outsource their manufacturing and relied on American workers instead for production and kept all the money (taxation, fees, costs) here in the states.




Well... true our eyepieces are assembled in Japan or Taiwan...to our design. BUT 100% inspection and any repair even for older units is done in New York.
And ALL our refractors are built in NY, including all machining only the glass comes from Japan.
All the employees of Tele Vue live in NY or very close, and I live near Los Angeles in a ranch style home on a high road.


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csrlice12
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: John Rhodes]
      #5850374 - 05/09/13 04:15 PM

Well, If Al or any of the other TV folk need a place to stay, I've got an extra room.......Besides, they're expensive because they're worth it........

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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: csrlice12]
      #5850480 - 05/09/13 05:05 PM

You're gonna go broke and have nothing dude!

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Scanning4Comets
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? *DELETED* new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5850489 - 05/09/13 05:10 PM

Post deleted by Scott in NC

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Starman1
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Scanning4Comets]
      #5850604 - 05/09/13 06:23 PM

Being a fan is not a pejorative.

I've owned several Vixen LVWs, Pentax XWs, Panoptics, Naglers, Ethos, Meade UWAs, Celestron Axiom LXs, etc, etc. over the years.
I've also had opportunity to use the ES 68s, 82s, 100s, and 120 in a variety of scopes. And the WO UWANs, and several other companies' ultrawide offerings.

And eyepieces from many other companies. Though I've only owned a little over 300 eyepieces, I've used, at one time or another, almost that many more from other companies.

And I, too, am a TeleVue fan.
Seriously, if some other company makes a better eyepiece in the apparent fields I prefer, I'll buy it.

That does not mean no other company makes a good eyepiece. Far from it, because there are a lot of nice eyepieces out there. And I'm glad there are. That there are a lot fewer of them now than 4 years ago is a sign of the times.

But I've come to rely on TeleVue for unsurpassed quality and performance.
And, at least in ultra-wide fields, I have not seen their equals (I admit, I have not used the Nikon NAV-HW eyepieces).

So I can say I am a fan. And I am a fan of some other companies, too. Their eyepieces don't fit my requirements, but that's OK. If I could say one thing based upon my experience it would be that if your only experience with eyepieces was with TeleVues, you haven't missed much.


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Alvin Huey
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Damo636]
      #5850749 - 05/09/13 07:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




I'm sorry...but the Delos are NOT clones of the XWs...I know as I took my 6mm apart...and it is not even CLOSE to the XW. BTW, the Delos SMOKES the XW on deep sky objects...as the Delos already beats the Ethos...and the Ethos and XW are about the same, giving the Ethos the slightest edge.

Several other very experienced observed confirmed it with a couple large telescopes, not dinky little 6" apos.






My post was meant to be very much "tongue in cheek" Alvin, I'm fully aware they aren't clones
I've owned the 6, 10 & most recently the14 Delos, and would agree with you, they are excellent eyepieces. I still prefer the XW's at the
sharp end though...




Ah. Sorry.


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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jon Isaacs]
      #5850902 - 05/09/13 08:46 PM

Quote:

Regarding the purchase of the 21mm Ethos, at this time, it's just not of interest. I am not one of those guys who has to have the latest and greatest eyepiece... I have all the equipment I need. Jon Isaacs




I was there too for about five years. Then the Delos came out, and I prefer them over the Radian, so I sold my Radians and replaced them with Delos equivalents. Then, I paid attention to some postings listing people's favorite eyepieces. The Pentax 5XO, 8 Brandon, TMB supermonos, ZAOs, Pentax Extra Wides, and more recently, the Ethos and Delos eyepieces. I had already ruled out the Ethos because of price, and that 100 AFOV was overkill. I picked up a used 5XO and 8 Brandon, and now realize why so many people love them. I have a TMB supermono on order and picked up a 9 HuTech. In short, I see why people like the small glass eyepieces. They fit in nicely with my other eyepieces.

However, I agree that there is a point where we should be satisfied with what we have. I also do not have to own the latest and greatest. I really do think I am through--for another several years.


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Jon Isaacs
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: amicus sidera]
      #5851032 - 05/09/13 10:14 PM

Quote:


As for the Meade/Nagler debate, my own experience at the time (late 1980's) was that almost every observer that I knew, or knew of, who owned a Nagler 13mm or 9mm proceeded to sell them off in favor of the Meade 14mm or 8.8mm UWA, once they viewed through them; notice that I wrote "observer", not "eyepiece collector" . I myself found them to be a superior design, although admittedly not by much.




I own the 14mm UWA which many believe is the best of the lot, I have owned the others excepting the 8.8mm, they are good eyepieces.. I also own the 12mm and 16mm Type 2 Naglers. The 14mm UWA is a wonderful eyepiece but for what ever reasons, I find myself using the Naglers while the UWAs sit in it's case.

It worth noting that the 9mm and the 13mm were the original type 1 Naglers. Type 1's showed "spherical aberration of the exit pupil." The Meade UWAs addressed this problem as did the type 2 Naglers so it was indeed the type 1 Naglers that were replaced.

Spherical aberration of the exit pupil

Jon


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JustaBoy
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? *DELETED* new [Re: faackanders2]
      #6132374 - 10/12/13 01:44 AM

Post deleted by JustaBoy

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ManuelJ
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: JustaBoy]
      #6132455 - 10/12/13 04:09 AM

Try 20 ES 100 and 21mm Ethos in a fast F/5 refractor.

Next action: go to the bank to pay the 21 Ethos.



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tomcody
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: FishInPercolator]
      #6132731 - 10/12/13 10:20 AM

Quote:

Why is the 21mm Tele Vue so expensive?



Just price a Nikon Nav HW 17mm and it makes the Televue look cheap!
web page
Rex


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star drop
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Jarrod]
      #6132893 - 10/12/13 11:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I don't think that TeleVue designed the Nagler with the fast Dob in mind. Maybe someone who knows Uncle Al could shed some light on this.




Or we could read Mr. Nagler's own comments in the 1988 patent:

"The lens data set forth in the following tables are, in all cases, for eyepieces having a 10 mm. focal length and an 80 to 90 degree field of view. All are well corrected for telecentric input beams as fast as f/4."

What f/4 telescopes existed in 1988? It seems those are what they had in mind.



There were lots of Astroscans.


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esd726
scholastic sledgehammer
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: russell23]
      #6132920 - 10/12/13 11:58 AM

Quote:


I just don't see the point in anyone claiming some moral high ground over eyepiece purchases.




I think a lot of it is most people can't afford to spend that much on an eyepiece (even though they probably would if they could.) It's not like ES are SUPER cheap either, not like they are getting something at Dollar General instead of Saks. I have had most of the TV line of eyepieces (still have the 1st one I ever bought-13 T6) but currently finances dictate that if I want "high end" eyepieces I buy ES. I also like the way they actually look though too. If TV and ES sold for the same price it would be interesting to see what would happen. I would say at first TV would dominate (sort of like- Hey this Lamborghini costs as much as this 'Vette now-maybe not BEST analogy ) but after awhile I wonder if it would start to even out a little If $400 was the "same" to me as $100 what would I have bought. (I must be more tired than I thought-thinking to odd .)


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dawziecat
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: esd726]
      #6133017 - 10/12/13 12:45 PM

I am in the market for some new, or "new-to-me" EPs
I have plowed through this entire thread.

Learned some EP history but also the overwhelming feeling that nationalism, elitism and ego are certainly at play here.

I have no argument with that. What is the entire "high-end" wristwatch industry based on if not ego?

While I personally would not buy a Rolex even if I were a billionaire, I am considering a 41mm Pan, even though I am not a billionaire!

Not "decided." Still considering though.

My intellect says the 40mm ES is a far more rational decision! "90%(insert some arbitary figure) of the "bang" for about half the number of bucks.

While I appreciate the quality, the history and "pedigree" of TV products, I don't feel obligated to the company by any "made here" (which they ain't!) sentiment.

If I can find a used 41mm Pan at an attractive price, I'll buy it. If I can't . . . and paying full retail, plus taxes is the only route to one . . . the ES 40mm will be the one chosen. The cost of buying these new, in my section of Canada is $288 vs $621 CDN.

My feelings about TV EPs:
1/ Great, "jewel-like" fit and finish.
2/ Very high resale value . . . which is bad for me!


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kkokkolis
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: esd726]
      #6133022 - 10/12/13 12:47 PM

Quote:

We live in a fee market...



You probably meant a free market, but I hope I would be living in a flea market and find an Ethos there.
ES100 20 is more expensive than the others (although not as much) and it has the same dimensions with the 14mm. The same happens with the biggest Naglers and UWA's. Even Hyperion Aspheric 36 costs more than the 31 although the later is considered better. There are some reasons and glass is expensive material, not to mention coatings and manufacture. Big Svarofski items cost more than smaller, bigger APOs cost more than the smaller ones, bigger Costa Boda vases the same, and so on. But with TV, even so-so items cost much, such as the Ethos soft case (got it), the 24-8 zoom (worse than Baader's) and small, non optical accessories. It might be the cost of keeping a small, specialized company alive, the cost of green paint or other things I can't think of.


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: kkokkolis]
      #6133045 - 10/12/13 12:59 PM

This is to the OP right from the original topic:

Doesn't matter because you can buy three used ES eyepieces for the price of one TV, or two brand new ES eyepieces for the price of one TV, depending on the focal length desired.

At the darker spot I go to, I looked through a 21mm TV Ethos and also a 20mm Explore Scientific. The differences were not night and day. ES has raised the bar by having eyepieces that are affordable for people who want them and get 90% the same effect. Only thing TV has over ES for the 100 degree series is longer eye relief, and a tad better sharpness towards the edges. Not a whole lot of difference to justify the higher cost IMO. You won't see me EVER buying an Ethos eyepiece at those prices. NO THANKS.

You can call ES, (like I have done), and get a representative on the phone right away, just like you can at TV and get excellent customer service to boot!

WAY TO GO EXPLORE SCIENTIFIC

PS: The 5.5mm ES 100 will be an excellent addition to the others and it shouldn't be too long before it comes out.


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a__l
professor emeritus


Reged: 11/24/07

Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: kkokkolis]
      #6133050 - 10/12/13 01:03 PM

Buying ES you will always be tormented by doubts.
What sells better eyepieces ...


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tomcody
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: dawziecat]
      #6133134 - 10/12/13 01:55 PM

Terry,
Just my opinion, but if your longest FL scope is the Tak TOA150 at 1100 mm Fl? then I think the 40mm eyepiece is too long for good views. I had a 40mm Meade 40mm series 4000 SWA (Japan) and in my Tak's FS128 and FS102. Fl's of 1040 and 820mm the 40mm was very underwhelming. A 32mm SWA was more appropriate to both focal lengths. Perhaps a Panoptic 27mm or Nagler 26 or 31mm would suit your scopes better. Just my two cents ( If it were me, I would go with either the Pan 27 or Nagler 26, both great eyepieces).
Rex


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Scanning4Comets
Markus
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: tomcody]
      #6133207 - 10/12/13 02:38 PM

Quote:

Buying ES you will always be tormented by doubts.
What sells better eyepieces ...




Please....give it a rest already. Sheesh.



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The Ardent
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Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: a__l]
      #6133251 - 10/12/13 03:12 PM

When I go grocery shopping I buy generic or store brand. When I buy eyepieces its Televue. When it comes to observing I wont compromise.

I tried the 13 Ethos in 2007 when it first came out. I didn't like it. Just didn't "fit" me.
I bought the 21 Ethos. I didn't like it and sold it.
I borrowed a 10 Ethos at the star party last week and loved it. You never know until you try.
I spent an hour using Rob Teeter's 20" f/3.5.
As a result I bought a Paracorr 2 from Teeter Telescopes.

Quote:

Buying ES you will always be tormented by doubts.
What sells better eyepieces ...




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GeneT
Ely Kid
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Loc: South Texas
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: GeneT]
      #6133478 - 10/12/13 05:32 PM

Quote:

A lot of people love these eyepieces and are willing to pay the price. The Ethos pushed the envelope when they first came out. I don't know if there was any R&D costs to recoup. TeleVue has extremely high quality control standards, plus the complexity of the Ethos are some of the factors that drove up the price. I would pay the price--except I prefer Naglers,Delos and Pentax Extra Wide eyepieces. Also, they are priced considerably less.




Since my original post, I bought a 13 Ethos. I was skeptical of the Ethos at the time, and thought I probably would sell it. I was not happy with my 12 Nagler and 14 Delos, so decided to try the Ethos. I was amazed with the views the 13 Ethos gave. I then decided to try the 21. Same story. So I sold my 31, 22, 12 Naglers and 14 Delos. The 13 and 21 Ethos replaced those eyepieces. I went on to purchase the 8, 6 an 4.7 Ethos eyepieces.

To the poster's question--why are the TV Ethos so expensive? Others have posted a variety of reasons. Let me just say that in my opinion, they are worth the money.


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dawziecat
Carpal Tunnel
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Reged: 10/20/10

Loc: Rural Nova Scotia
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: tomcody]
      #6133634 - 10/12/13 07:01 PM

Quote:

Terry,
. . . if your longest FL scope is the Tak TOA150 at 1100 mm Fl? then I think the 40mm eyepiece is too long for good views. Perhaps a Panoptic 27mm or Nagler 26 or 31mm would suit your scopes better.
Rex




Thanks, Rex. I am trying to get a 27mm Pan from Amart now, without success I have to add. I do like my wide views and have a C11 with a longer FL to feed too.

Even a 21mm Ethos is of interest . . . nah! I just don't really do enough visual to justify it!

Edited by dawziecat (10/12/13 08:05 PM)


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schang
scholastic sledgehammer


Reged: 04/24/13

Loc: columbia, sc
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: a__l]
      #6133710 - 10/12/13 07:34 PM

How about tormented by Plossls ? Nah, not really. Those are all I have for now and serve me fine so far. An ES would be an upgrade to me, but not needed, let alone a Nagler. Why don't I buy them, you may ask? Because I do not "NEED" them. I am satisfied with what I have, a "low road" equipment that provides me the opportunity to get into this hobby. I could have spent thousands more for the "high road" stuff, but this is not me. Enjoy the sky and clear skies to y'all.

Edited by schang (10/13/13 07:12 AM)


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hfjacinto
I think he's got it!
*****

Reged: 01/12/09

Loc: Land of clouds and LP
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: a__l]
      #6133900 - 10/12/13 09:25 PM

Quote:

Buying ES you will always be tormented by doubts.
What sells better eyepieces ...




Actually this is wrong, I and many others are very comfortable that the ES 100° are the best eyepieces for ME. I have no doubts they are what I wanted.

Now on to resale value. This is the biggest load of horse poopoo I ever heard. On the used market the items are worth what some one wants to pay for them. Depending on the current market conditions the value is dependent on many factors, most eyepieces I have sold I have gotten 70-80% back on what on I paid, a few even more with some getting back more in used than what I paid new. What does this say? It says some days I have an item that someone wanted. The best return was on a Zhummel eyepiece getting 120% of the price I paid, worst loss over $100 or 50% on a Televue Radian.

If you brought new TV eyepieces before the last price drop your resale value took a big hit.

And I sold lots of eyepieces so I know the cost and sale price.


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Mike W
sage


Reged: 04/30/06

Loc: Upstate NY
Re: Why is the 21mm Tele Vue Ethos so expensive? new [Re: Starman81]
      #6139791 - 10/15/13 08:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thats why I sold the few Delos I had, blatant clones of the XW
I'll get my coat




This thread is getting funny.






I don't think Paul D. would agree!


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